Spiritual Weapon & Other Spell Interactions

[Garfunion]

Spiritual Weapon

2nd-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 minute

You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.

As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it. The weapon can take whatever form you choose. Clerics of deities who are associated with a particular weapon (as St. Cuthbert is known for his mace and Thor for his hammer) make this spell’s effect resemble that weapon.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for every two slot levels above the 2nd.

Can you use spiritual weapon as the weapon attack for green flame blade and booming blade cantrips and also for absorb elements spell?

The reason why I ask is because the fluff and the crunch of most spells and abilities are one in the same. Which means spiritual weapon does create a weapon that you make melee attack with and you can use a bonus action at any point on your turn.

[Aett_Thorn]

No, because it’s a melee spell attack, not a melee weapon attack. Among probably several other reasons.

[Garfunion]

No, because it’s a melee spell attack, not a melee weapon attack. Among probably several other reasons.

Look at those spells again, absorb elements just requires a melee attack. And the cantrips require a melee attack with a weapon.

[Galithar]

As far as I can tell as long as you follow the other restrictions (Still only has a 5 ft range) I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

RAI I doubt it's supposed to.

RAF I'd probably allow it at my table, even at range, because it's cool. But I'd also warn my players that if they want to do it, enemies will be able to also.

[bid]

"As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack [...]"
"As a bonus action on your turn [...]"

You must use a weapon during your cast a spell action.
You can't use spiritual weapon outside of BA.


So... sorcerer quickened spell only?

[Garfunion]

"As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack [...]"
"As a bonus action on your turn [...]"

You must use a weapon during your cast a spell action.
You can't use spiritual weapon outside of BA.


So... sorcerer quickened spell only?

I’m not using it outside bonus action. You start casting the cantrip spell then use the bonus action to make the melee attack to finish the casting.

[Galithar]

"As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack [...]"
"As a bonus action on your turn [...]"

You must use a weapon during your cast a spell action.
You can't use spiritual weapon outside of BA.


So... sorcerer quickened spell only?

If I quicken Booming Blade and am wielding a Two handed weapon am I not able to cast the spell because I can't make a weapon attack as a bonus action outside of quickening this spell?

[BarneyBent]

I’m not using it outside bonus action. You cast the cantrip spell then use the bonus action to make the melee attack to finish the casting.

That’s not how the SCAGtrips work. You must make the attack as part of the action of casting the spell, if you can’t then the spell fails.

You also must target a creature within the spell’s range, which is 5 ft. So you can’t do it at range regardless.

You COULD argue that casting Spiritual Weapon gives you access to a weapon-like object, and using the Improvised Weapons rules, could make a melee weapon attack. But that relies on an interpretation of the weapon as tangible, which is up to the DM, and you wouldn’t be able to use WIS, just STR or DEX. And it would have to be within 5ft anyway. Not really worth it.

It’s a cool idea but doesn’t work RAW.

[Garfunion]

That’s not how the SCAGtrips work. You must make the attack as part of the action of casting the spell, if you can’t then the spell fails.

By this logic you would need to complete your attack action before you can weave martial arts bonus attack or use two weapon fighting bonus attack.

I’m not worried about the range I can keep the spiritual weapon next to me.

[bid]

I’m not using it outside bonus action. You start casting the cantrip spell then use the bonus action to make the melee attack to finish the casting.
Well if you really want to be right, nothing can stop you.

Except the GM itself.

[BarneyBent]

By this logic you would need to complete your attack action before you can weave martial arts bonus attack or use two weapon fighting bonus attack.

I’m not worried about the range I can keep the spiritual weapon next to me.

No. This isn’t the Attack action. It’s the Cast A Spell action. You are welcome to start casting a spell, make a bonus action attack, and then complete the casting of the spell (though there’s no benefit to it aside from maybe some very specific spells).

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether you’ve met the requirements of casting a SCAGtrip though, as that requires making a melee attack with a weapon as part of the same action that you cast the spell. Your bonus action spell attack that Spiritual Weapon gives you is by definition not the same action as the Cast a Spell action you used to cast the SCAGtrip.

Could a DM rule otherwise for fun? Sure. But it’s definitely not RAW.

[RSP]

That’s not how the SCAGtrips work. You must make the attack as part of the action of casting the spell, if you can’t then the spell fails.

You also must target a creature within the spell’s range, which is 5 ft. So you can’t do it at range regardless.

You COULD argue that casting Spiritual Weapon gives you access to a weapon-like object, and using the Improvised Weapons rules, could make a melee weapon attack. But that relies on an interpretation of the weapon as tangible, which is up to the DM, and you wouldn’t be able to use WIS, just STR or DEX. And it would have to be within 5ft anyway. Not really worth it.

It’s a cool idea but doesn’t work RAW.

Wouldn’t need to argue it’s a “weapon-like object” as the spell specifically states it creates a weapon. Since it’s already a weapon, no need for Improvised Weapon rules.

I’m also not sure you’re correct in “You must make the attack as part of the action of casting the spell, if you can’t then the spell fails” equaling BB or GFB with a SW won’t work. The cantrips grant the melee attack as part of the casting, that is, it’s a specific exception to having to use the Attack Action to make a melee Attack as your Action. Without that clause, no one could fulfill the requirement. Therefore, the same exception could well apply to SW, assuming it meets the other requirements of BB or GFB, which it does:

“you must make a melee attack [SW is a melee attack] with a weapon [SW is specifically stated as being a weapon] against one creature within the spell's range”

Also note: your reasoning would also prevent sorcerers from quickening BB or GFB on any turn they didn’t take the Attack Action while holding a weapon in both hands, as otherwise they cannot take an attack as a BA, and since they cannot make the BA attack, then the spell would fail (using a Scimitar of Speed would work as well).

[BarneyBent]

Wouldn’t need to argue it’s a “weapon-like object” as the spell specifically states it creates a weapon. Since it’s already a weapon, no need for Improvised Weapon rules.

It creates a floating, spectral weapon. That does not equal a weapon with which you can make a melee attack.

Both the “floating” and “spectral” elements suggest that the weapon cannot be wielded. Spells that conjure weapons that allow you to do that (such as Shadow Blade) specifically clarify that. Instead, this is a “weapon” with which you make spell attacks. A DM is of course free to rule otherwise, but interpreting it as a weapon in the traditional sense allows the spell to do more than it says it does. Yes, the spell doesn’t specifically say you CAN’T wield it and use it as a melee weapon, but that’s reversing the burden of proof. You’d need some textual evidence to support that this “spiritual”, “floating” and “spectral” weapon can be wielded to make a melee attack with a weapon.



I’m also not sure you’re correct in “You must make the attack as part of the action of casting the spell, if you can’t then the spell fails” equaling BB or GFB with a SW won’t work. The cantrips grant the melee attack as part of the casting, that is, it’s a specific exception to having to use the Attack Action to make a melee Attack as your Action. Without that clause, no one could fulfill the requirement. Therefore, the same exception could well apply to SW, assuming it meets the other requirements of BB or GFB, which it does:

“you must make a melee attack [SW is a melee attack] with a weapon [SW is specifically stated as being a weapon] against one creature within the spell's range”

If you rule that the Spiritual Weapon counts as a weapon that can be wielded for making melee attacks, then yes, that’s fine. Otherwise, it doesn’t work, because “melee attack with a weapon” has a specific meaning in the rules. It is equivalent to “melee weapon attack” (see here (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/06/what-specifically-does-melee-weapon-attack-mean/amp/)), and melee weapon attacks are incompatible with melee spell attacks. You would have to argue (most likely through the improvised weapons rules) that the Spiritual Weapon can be wielded to make melee weapon attacks.


This is somewhat beside the point though, as my point is you just can’t use a Bonus Action attack to fulfil the requirements of BB or GFB cast with an action, since it explicitly is part of the same action.




Also note: your reasoning would also prevent sorcerers from quickening BB or GFB on any turn they didn’t take the Attack Action while holding a weapon in both hands, as otherwise they cannot take an attack as a BA, and since they cannot make the BA attack, then the spell would fail (using a Scimitar of Speed would work as well).

I think you’ve misunderstood my argument, because I have no idea how you think my argument suggests that.

[JNAProductions]

RAW? No.

RAI? No.

Would I allow it? No.

[Quietus]

My reading -

Spiritual Weapon specifically gives you a new way to use your bonus action : as a melee spell attack with the summoned weapon. It does not allow you to use the spiritual weapon in any other way.

SCAGtrips require you to make an attack with a weapon as part of the casting of the cantrip; since this is not something the Spiritual Weapon spell allows for, it's not an available weapon for use as part of the cantrip. You don't get to start casting a spell, stop for a bonus action Spiritual Weapon attack, and use that to fulfill the spell. Spellcasting is not a series of discreet steps, it is a singular specific action unless otherwise noted.

[Garfunion]

Using GFB & BB with spiritual weapon was a long long shot to get it to work, but I am very confident that it would work with the absorb elements spell.

[BarneyBent]

Using GFB & BB with spiritual weapon was a long long shot to get it to work, but I am very confident that it would work with the absorb elements spell.

Oh yeah that definitely works. So does Thorn Whip, incidentally.

[RSP]

It creates a floating, spectral weapon. That does not equal a weapon with which you can make a melee attack.

It does, in fact, make it a weapon. I’m not sure what rule refers to categories of weapons where some “equal a weapon with which you can make a melee attack” and some, supposedly, cannot. Particularly since the description of SW states it’s make a melee attack.



Both the “floating” and “spectral” elements suggest that the weapon cannot be wielded. Spells that conjure weapons that allow you to do that (such as Shadow Blade) specifically clarify that. Instead, this is a “weapon” with which you make spell attacks. A DM is of course free to rule otherwise, but interpreting it as a weapon in the traditional sense allows the spell to do more than it says it does. Yes, the spell doesn’t specifically say you CAN’T wield it and use it as a melee weapon, but that’s reversing the burden of proof. You’d need some textual evidence to support that this “spiritual”, “floating” and “spectral” weapon can be wielded to make a melee attack with a weapon.

To start, “spectral” is “like a specter.” In the odd world of 5e RAW, specters are creatures that have mass: they can be hit with a hammer, for instance, they can be Shoved, damaged, etc. So, a spectral hammer, that is specifically stated to be a weapon, should have similar properties to both “weapons” and “spectral.” In 5e, those can co-exist. Look at the Sun Blade: it’s “a blade of pure radiance” yet can be used to parry with either the BM maneuver or with the Defensive Duelist feat.

The argument isn’t “prove it can be a weapon” as it’s specifically stated as being a weapon. So, it’s able to do whatever weapons do.

If you want spell comparisons, check out Flame Blade which does not specifically create a weapon: “You evoke a fiery blade in your free hand. The blade is similar in size and shape to a scimitar.” Note this description leaves it up to the DM to determine whether a “fiery blade” that is “similar in size and shape to a scimitar” is close enough to an actual scimitar as to be able to count as one (using the Improvised Weapon rules). Mass, for instance, is not cited as one of the ways the fiery blade is similar to a scimitar, and as such, it may be nowhere near sturdy enough to actually be considered similar enough to a scimitar to be used as a scimitar (there was a thread on this awhile ago if interested). SW doesn’t require any such determination, as it is stated to be a weapon.



If you rule that the Spiritual Weapon counts as a weapon that can be wielded for making melee attacks, then yes, that’s fine. Otherwise, it doesn’t work, because “melee attack with a weapon” has a specific meaning in the rules. It is equivalent to “melee weapon attack”... with melee spell attacks. You would have to argue (most likely through the improvised weapons rules) that the Spiritual Weapon can be wielded to make melee weapon attacks.

No ruling needed, as we already know, RAW, SW is a weapon. Weapons can be used for weapon attacks. Nothing in the RAW that I’ve ever seen excludes weapons that can be used in the making of a melee spell attack as incapable of being used to make melee weapon attacks. If I missed something, though, let me know.



This is somewhat beside the point though, as my point is you just can’t use a Bonus Action attack to fulfil the requirements of BB or GFB cast with an action, since it explicitly is part of the same action.

I’m not saying you can. As an aside, RAW doesn’t say you can’t use your Action to duplicate a BA (as in a situation where instead of taking an Action and a BA, a Player wants to do two different BAs), and many tables probably allow BAs to be done as Actions, for better or worse.



I think you’ve misunderstood my argument, because I have no idea how you think my argument suggests that.

If you’re saying you need to have the ability to make a weapon attack, outside of the casting of the BB or GFB spell, in order to make the weapon attack as part of the spell, then Quicken BB or GFB will automatically fail as the sorcerer cannot make a BA Attack outside of casting the spell (again, excepting the situations where one can make a BA Attack: TWF, Scimitar of Speed, GWM).