What's Going To Kill Belkar?

[HorizonWalker]

Okay, up-front, I just want to say that I'm answering the question in the title, not actually asking it. I have a theory that I haven't seen anyone mention so I'm gonna put it out there because why not.

Alright, so. Here's what we know: The Oracle of the Sunken Valley prophesied that "Belkar will draw his last breath- ever- before the end of the year." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

Now, obviously, the interpretation of "Belkar dies and goes to Hell" is a completely reasonable one. I don't blame anyone for taking the prophecy at face value and assuming he's just gonna straight-up die, no frills. That's reasonable, and if it's what ends up happening, I won't have any trouble accepting that.

But here's the thing: Vampires don't breathe. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0982.html) There's a vampire-shaped loose end running around, and it's entirely possible she's there for more than just giving Hel and Loki something to talk about briefly before they move into "I'll kill you!"

The Teal Deer(TL;DR) here is, "what if Belkar fulfills the Oracle's prophecy by becoming a vampire?"

[Schroeswald]

Belkar will still be on the world (another thing the Oracle said he wouldn’t do), and, um, change the title? Because that is very misleading, the answer to that question is of course “HARDCORE introspection” (I.e. redemption).

[The Pilgrim]

Given how vampires work here, Belkar being turned into a vampire means Belkar becoming trapped inside his own head. Given that we have already gone trough such a plot this book, that would be boresome repetitive. Also the Party already knows how vampires work so they would know that the vampire is not him and would kill him on the spot.

[Worldsong]

Given how vampires work here, Belkar being turned into a vampire means Belkar becoming trapped inside his own head. Given that we have already gone trough such a plot this book, that would be boresome repetitive. Also the Party already knows how vampires work so they would know that the vampire is not him and would kill him on the spot.

Unless vampire Belkar convinces them that he'd actually be less of a hassle to deal with than mundane Belkar.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, up-front, I just want to say that I'm answering the question in the title, not actually asking it. I have a theory that I haven't seen anyone mention so I'm gonna put it out there because why not.

Alright, so. Here's what we know: The Oracle of the Sunken Valley prophesied that "Belkar will draw his last breath- ever- before the end of the year." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

Now, obviously, the interpretation of "Belkar dies and goes to Hell" is a completely reasonable one. I don't blame anyone for taking the prophecy at face value and assuming he's just gonna straight-up die, no frills. That's reasonable, and if it's what ends up happening, I won't have any trouble accepting that.

But here's the thing: Vampires don't breathe. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0982.html) There's a vampire-shaped loose end running around, and it's entirely possible she's there for more than just giving Hel and Loki something to talk about briefly before they move into "I'll kill you!"

The Teal Deer(TL;DR) here is, "what if Belkar fulfills the Oracle's prophecy by becoming a vampire?"

I'm afraid you are not even in the first ten to suggest this. Vampires may not breathe, but they definitely stay in this world, so the only way Belkar can stay within the "not long for this world" portion of the prophecy is, in addition to becoming chained inside his own head by a negative energy spirit, is if that spirit then somehow ends up in the outer planes.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

And I don't see why vampires couldn't enjoy cake. Or retire.

[Rrmcklin]

After just going through all of this vampire stuff with Durkon, you really think the "subversion" of Belkar's prophecy is just going to amount to doing that over again?

As others have said, even if you can wiggle room a single piece of what the Oracle said, when you piece all of the things he's said only leads to one conclusion: Belkar's permanent death.

[Fyraltari]

Also, Curly is out of spells, low-level, alone, running away and scared of Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html). I will admit that I would be very surprised if she turned out to be the one to do him in.

[xroads]

Unless vampire Belkar convinces them that he'd actually be less of a hassle to deal with than mundane Belkar.

LOL! I could actually see this.


Roy: Kill him! He's a vampire!
Belkarula: Wait! Wait! Yes, I am a vampire. But Belker's darkest day was the day he had to pay attention in class and behave. I was created to fill that hole. So…
Haley: He does have a point.
Roy: …
Durkon: …

[Schroeswald]

LOL! I could actually see this.


Roy: Kill him! He's a vampire!
Belkarula: Wait! Wait! Yes, I am a vampire. But Belker's darkest day was the day he had to pay attention in class and behave. I was created to fill that hole. So…
Haley: He does have a point.
Roy: …
Durkon: …

I mean I’d say his worst day was the same day as Tarquin’s, so I’m not sure what that would do.

[Squire Doodad]

I mean I’d say his worst day was the same day as Tarquin’s, so I’m not sure what that would do.

"Are you Evil now?"
"No more evil than Belkar not more good either, but oddly enough a small bit more neutral"

[GloatingSwine]

I was going to say a combination of hubris and gravity because that's what always gets me in Dark Souls.

But then I remembered that's what killed Roy.

[RaveDave92084]

At Roy's judgement in the afterlife, they had to come up with a meaningful unit of evil to describe Belkar's evil -- Kilonazi's. Belkar was hovering at 3 Kilonazi's when he first met Roy, and then hovered at around 1, after meeting Roy. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html (Belkar's evilness chart on panel 11)

Were Belkar turned into a vampire, his new driver might be less evil than Belkar.

Roy: "How evil are you?"
Belkar*: "Surprisingly, not as evil as Belkar. Frankly, Belkar terrifies me."
Roy: ....


Dave B.

[Worldsong]

I was going to say a combination of hubris and gravity because that's what always gets me in Dark Souls.

But then I remembered that's what killed Roy.

True, but gravity isn't stingy, it'll kill everyone as many times as needs be.

[hroþila]

LOL! I could actually see this.


Roy: Kill him! He's a vampire!
Belkarula: Wait! Wait! Yes, I am a vampire. But Belker's darkest day was the day he had to pay attention in class and behave. I was created to fill that hole. So…
Haley: He does have a point.
Roy: …
Durkon: …
If a vampire spirit was built around that memory, he wouldn't be well-behaved. He would resent and instinctively rebel against all authority, because that was what made his host sit up and listen against his will. He would be like the old Belkar, only more focused. Bad news all around.

[Schroeswald]

If a vampire spirit was built around that memory, he wouldn't be well-behaved. He would resent and instinctively rebel against all authority, because that was what made his host sit up and listen against his will. He would be like the old Belkar, only more focused. Bad news all around.

What about a vampire made from this memory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html) (I'd do Durkan's death, but that strip doesn't even show Belkar)? Because I feel like a vampire made from that would have a good chance of being good.

[Worldsong]

What about a vampire made from this memory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html) (I'd do Durkan's death, but that strip doesn't even show Belkar)? Because I feel like a vampire made from that would have a good chance of being good.

I suspect that the negative energy that vampires are made of twists any possible goodness into evil.

So far as I can read that scene Belkar is feeling guilt and shame, for being too weak and for having someone else die to protect him. His vampire self could just become one of the most power hungry creatures out there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And I don't see why vampires couldn't enjoy cake. Or retire.

Vampires usually have trouble digesting or even enjoying non-blood food. We can't be sure that is the case in OotS, but it is not an unreasonable hypothesis. And the problem with immortality is that you can't retire, because you aren't getting any older, and thus at best you'd take sabbaticals.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

You're not the first person to suggest this. Vampires are still in the world. Plus, it's not like this is any better for Belkar: I imagine Vampire him would basically just go "huh, well, it looks like your past mainly consists of random destruction and murder: So pretty similar to your future then! But, uh, what's this crap about caring for another creature? I'm gonna go murder that cat while you watch helplessly!"

[Quebbster]

Vampires usually have trouble digesting or even enjoying non-blood food. We can't be sure that is the case in OotS, but it is not an unreasonable hypothesis. And the problem with immortality is that you can't retire, because you aren't getting any older, and thus at best you'd take sabbaticals.

Grey Wolf

Malack didn't eat the food at the banquet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html) I assume he would have eaten if he could, so for now I assume vampires can only eat blood.

[RatElemental]

I'm gonna put my quatloos on throwing axe kilt guy doing it.

And now to actually read the thread.

Edit: Oh the old "Belkar becomes a vampire" theory. That one's gotten less and less plausible with each passing update, especially now that the only two vampires we know about are currently miles away or doing their best to also be miles away.

[Fyraltari]

Vampires usually have trouble digesting or even enjoying non-blood food. We can't be sure that is the case in OotS, but it is not an unreasonable hypothesis. And the problem with immortality is that you can't retire, because you aren't getting any older, and thus at best you'd take sabbaticals.

Grey Wolf
Wether vampires can digest (and/or taste) regular food varies wildly from one universe to another. I’m not making any assumption about OOTS.

No, being ageless gives you even more reason to retire (especially from a dangerous profession when you don’t have true immortality). When you tire of your current profession, you retire and go gardening or backpacking across Tartarus or whatever.

Malack didn't eat the food at the banquet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html) I assume he would have eaten if he could, so for now I assume vampires can only eat blood.
Good find.

[D.One]

Roy: "How evil are you?"
Belkar*: "Surprisingly, not as evil as Belkar. Frankly, Belkar terrifies me."
Roy: ....




Ok, that one got me laughing :smallbiggrin:


:belkar:'What's invisible to the eye, mysterious to the mind, and definitive to Belkar?"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, being ageless gives you even more reason to retire (especially from a dangerous profession when you don’t have true immortality). When you tire of your current profession, you retire and go gardening or backpacking across Tartarus or whatever.

Which is what is called a sabbatical, if when you are done blowing through your savings you have to go back to working.

Although fair enough, a vampire wouldn't need to fund an IRA any more than a soon-to-be-dead person, since neither can make use of it. To a vampire, an IRA is just a savings account with penalties for withdrawing the money.

Grey Wolf

[deuterio12]

Belkar will not die.

Overdeity Mr. Scruffy will deem the halfling the first being in all the world cycles worthy of ascending him into an higher form of being beyond the understanding of even the current gods, and that of course includes no longer needing to breath.

[D.One]

Belkar will not die.

Overdeity Mr. Scruffy will deem the halfling the first being in all the world cycles worthy of ascending him into an higher form of being beyond the understanding of even the current gods, and that of course includes no longer needing to breath.

And, apparently, losing the capabilty to enjoy cakes... :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

Now, obviously, the interpretation of "Belkar dies and goes to Hell" is a completely reasonable one.

Thats not reasonable at all!

He'd go to the Abyss, of course. :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

Which is what is called a sabbatical, if when you are done blowing through your savings you have to go back to working.
Only if you do get another job (the same one even!). With enough capital and how little expansed they have undead could easily unlive by annuities alone.


Although fair enough, a vampire wouldn't need to fund an IRA any more than a soon-to-be-dead person, since neither can make use of it. To a vampire, an IRA is just a savings account with penalties for withdrawing the money.

Grey Wolf

Yes.

[EyethatBinds]

Xykon.
/thread

[jwhouk]

The Sphinx Pox.

C'mon, it's so dang obvious.

[D.One]

Whatever kills Belkar, Mr. Scruffy will have to replace his Humanoid Companion (Ex). Again.

[denthor]

He get a poorly made cake that tastes bad. His digestive system is so sensitive he goes into culinary shock.

[D.One]

Belkar why die of mysterious circunstances (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html).

[xroads]

If a vampire spirit was built around that memory, he wouldn't be well-behaved. He would resent and instinctively rebel against all authority, because that was what made his host sit up and listen against his will. He would be like the old Belkar, only more focused. Bad news all around.

Yeah, I realized it shortly after I posted it, but by then it was already too late.

Perhaps his darkest day would be whenever he has some serious introspection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html) and realizes the hurt he has caused? :smallbiggrin:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Belkar why die of mysterious circunstances.

Why indeed.

Grey Wolf

[RatElemental]

Why indeed.

Grey Wolf

When will they find a cure!?

[The Pilgrim]

He get a poorly made cake that tastes bad. His digestive system is so sensitive he goes into culinary shock.

Indeed. The Oracle said that he should savour his next birthday cake. The little kobold bastard wanted to ensure Belkar suffers full shock value and dies.

[D.One]

Indeed. The Oracle said that he should savour his next birthday cake. The little kobold bastard wanted to ensure Belkar suffers full shock value and dies.

Another possibility on how will Belkar die. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)

[brian 333]

Belkar will intentionally stand between someone more necessary to the success of the plan than himself and The Snarl, and will thus be unmade. He will be redeemed in the same instant he is destroyed, and will have no afterlife and no possibility of returning to life, but because of his action success will be made possible for the Order.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Thats not reasonable at all!

He'd go to the Abyss, of course. :smalltongue:

honetly, I think he'll n up in limbo, an the final hot of him will be of him tryin tk persuade someone that h deserved the abyss.

[Squire Doodad]

Another possibility on how will Belkar die. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)

So, a very poorly made cake infested with acid spitting beetles?

Eh, seems kind of tame...

[Schroeswald]

So, a very poorly made cake infested with acid spitting beetles?

Eh, seems kind of tame...

AN EXTREMELY poorly made cake infested with acid spitting SHARKS that FIGHT TO THE DEATH.

[Squire Doodad]

AN EXTREMELY poorly made cake infested with acid spitting SHARKS that FIGHT TO THE DEATH.

Sounds good, but feels a tad off.
Needs more...mano a mano action, you know?

[Schroeswald]

Sounds good, but feels a tad off.
Needs more...mano a mano action, you know?

And if he makes it out, there's Kraagor, WHO WILL PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE! And then they fight, over lava spitting sharks, and below the Snarl.

[Jasdoif]

And if he makes it out, there's Kraagor, WHO WILL PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE! And then they fight, over lava spitting sharks, and below the Snarl.Oh, like Joust but without the birds?

[Squire Doodad]

Oh, like Joust but without the birds?

We've got Blackwing around here, maybe we can have a bird then.

[a_flemish_guy]

he'll be killed by a kobold monk

[Lombard]

I like the undead idea, but I'm leaning toward Belkar being the one who bites the vampire and takes over its consciousness

[Rrmcklin]

I like the undead idea, but I'm leaning toward Belkar being the one who bites the vampire and takes over its consciousness

Why would that ever be a thing?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why would that ever be a thing?

It's a Discworld reference.

Grey Wolf

[D.One]

So, a very poorly made cake infested with acid spitting beetles?

Eh, seems kind of tame...

My idea was to link the dying thing with the cake thing (which would be a very oracle thing to do: advice him to savor his birthday cake, and that cake being the killer)...

... but I really liked this one:


AN EXTREMELY poorly made cake infested with acid spitting SHARKS that FIGHT TO THE DEATH.

[Fish]

No, What’s on second.

[D.One]

No, What’s on second.

Ok, that was really mysterious... :smallbiggrin:

[Jay R]

Sigh. Yet another clever way that Rich could subvert the intentions of the author.



What's going to kill Belkar?

A Giant.

In a Playground.

[Squire Doodad]

Sigh. Yet another clever way that Rich could subvert the intentions of the author.



What's going to kill Belkar?

A Giant.

In a Playground.

I mean...technically?

Rich is going to draw the last half of book 7 on a laptop/drawing tablet in a sandbox in a playground just to enable that pun, isn't he.
It's what I would do :smalltongue:

[Wizard_Lizard]

It's a Discworld reference.

Grey Wolf

As are a lot of posts within this forum...

[Quebbster]

As are a lot of posts within this forum...
Sooner or later (probably later), it will be possible to put together the complete works of Terry Pratchett using only quotes from this forum. Mostly by Grey_Wolf_c.

[Peelee]

Sooner or later (probably later), it will be possible to put together the complete works of Terry Pratchett using only quotes from this forum. Mostly by Grey_Wolf_c.

Grey Wolf quotes are how I plan to read my first Pratchett novel.

[denthor]

No, What’s on second.

I don't know


Third base

[Fish]

I don't know
Third base
Third base.

[D.One]

What couldn't kill Belkar even if he wanted to. The Belkster is nasty.

[Syncrogti]

I am now convinced that the Belkster will die saving either his cat, or Durkon, from certain death. I am also convinced he will die to prove a point to somebody in the OotS, probably to Roy. I have nothing to back this up other than gut instinct.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am now convinced that the Belkster will die saving either his cat, or Durkon, from certain death. I am also convinced he will die to prove a point to somebody in the OotS, probably to Roy. I have nothing to back this up other than gut instinct.

Might his "extreme apology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html)" be a step in that direction? :smalleek:

[Dion]

You know how we’ve never seen Belkar and a crate of overripe mangos in the same panel?

Because foreshadowing.

[D.One]

You know how we’ve never seen Belkar and a crate of overripe mangos in the same panel?

Because foreshadowing.

Are you suggesting Belkar will be mango'led to death? (Cos that would be gross)

[Squire Doodad]

Are you suggesting Belkar will be mango'led to death? (Cos that would be gross)

Obviously Belkar is actually three twentieths mango on his grandpappy's side

[D.One]

Obviously Belkar is actually three twentieths mango on his grandpappy's side

Soooo....

you are suggesting what will kill Belkar is a Man-Go...

... as in a Man made of Go pieces...

... and it will banish Belkar's soul to a plane which is an infinite Go set...

... and there Belkar will finally understand Shojo's speech about playing the game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html)...

... aaand I think I've gone too far...

[Squire Doodad]

Soooo....

you are suggesting what will kill Belkar is a Man-Go...

... as in a Man made of Go pieces...

... and it will banish Belkar's soul to a plane which is a infinite Go set...

... and there Belkar will finally understand Shojo's speech about playing the game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html)...

... aaand I think I've gone too far...

Yeah sure that works too

[KorvinStarmast]

As he's a bit of an epicure, food wise, perhaps he will die from eating the salmon mousse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m1SXSdeWVY).

[D.One]

Belkar and Mr. Scruffy will don the Potara Earings and fuse permanently into Mr. Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. There will no longer be Belkar in the world anymore.

[Syncrogti]

OK so, what about this? Belkar will draw his last breath as a mortal, and become a GOD! He already calls himself the shoeless god of war, what if we really DOES become a GOD? Would that fulfill the prophecy accurately? Am I late to this party?

[Peelee]

OK so, what about this? Belkar will draw his last breath as a mortal, and become a GOD! He already calls himself the shoeless god of war, what if we really DOES become a GOD? Would that fulfill the prophecy accurately? Am I late to this party?

It's been proposed before, yes. The main arguments against are:
1.) it would be senseless for the Oracle to gloat about Belkar becoming a god
B.) hardly anyone even knows who Belkar is, let alone cares about him, so him being deified seems really out there.

[Syncrogti]

It's been proposed before, yes. The main arguments against are:
1.) it would be senseless for the Oracle to gloat about Belkar becoming a god
B.) hardly anyone even knows who Belkar is, let alone cares about him, so him being deified seems really out there.

OK thanks. Good point about the gloating.

[RatElemental]

What if Belkar performs (or more likely, is used as a test subject by a psion wanting to perform) the psionic sandwich trick, but with his birthday cake that he only got one bite of before being mind switched with it?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I don't know what will kill Belkar, I just know that:

1 It's not becoming a vampire, because that already is how Durkon's prophecy became true, and the B-plots in this comic are not quite that repetitive (note to mods: there's probably a rule that I can't talk about repetitiveness of B-plots in either a negative or positive light, but come on, this is nearly literally a line from the comic itself), and...
2 It's not something he comes back from, because he was to take his last breath ever. So if he dies, no resurrection, and even if he does become something other than mortal living in a different world to technically fulfill the prophecy, no reversing that condition.

[Themrys]

I am now convinced that the Belkster will die saving either his cat, or Durkon, from certain death. I am also convinced he will die to prove a point to somebody in the OotS, probably to Roy. I have nothing to back this up other than gut instinct.

I agree, and I back it up with it being a common trope - Redemption Equals Death. We know Belkar is getting less evil, and we also know he is going to die.

Since he is still Belkar, and there's only so much character development that can happen in what's left of the story, I don't think he will admit to making a heroic sacrifice, but do it just to prove how badass he is. Or at least that's what he will tell himself.

The theory I can't back up is that he somehow will manage to meet Lord Shojo in the afterlife. That would mean his heroic sacrifice would change his alignment to one where that's possible. Just dying while trying to save his cat probably won't do it, which further backs up the theory that it will be an intentional sacrifice.

[Peelee]

We know Belkar is getting less evil, and we also know he is going to die.

We know that Belkar is getting less obnoxious and selfish about his Evil. I do not at all know he is getting less Evil.

[Havelocke]

I have a crazy theory about this...What if Belkar becomes "THE sexy shoeless God of war" and somehow, someway elevates to Godhood (generating his own quiddity) and helps solve the whole Snarl mess? He wouldn't be mortal anymore.

[Schroeswald]

We know that Belkar is getting less obnoxious and selfish about his Evil. I do not at all know he is getting less Evil.
Technically we also don’t know that Roy won’t die in the next five pages, but don’t expect anyone to act like it isn’t an incredibly obvious thing.

I have a crazy theory about this...What if Belkar becomes "THE sexy shoeless God of war" and somehow, someway elevates to Godhood (generating his own quiddity) and helps solve the whole Snarl mess? He wouldn't be mortal anymore.
Didn’t we already see this? Like, on this page even?

[Themrys]

We know that Belkar is getting less obnoxious and selfish about his Evil. I do not at all know he is getting less Evil.

Does being less selfish not equate being less evil?

When he didn't let the gnome woman invite him to dinner, he almost gave the impression he was slowly growing a proto-conscience. And I don't see how accepting the invitation would have hurt his long-term plans.
Except you suspect someone from the Order could have tipped her off that Belkar is evil and the cloak clasp working just as intended?

He clearly is still evil.

But my theory is that he will manage to be just neutral enough at the hour of his death to be reunited with his cat in the afterlife. (Animals are always neutral, right? Even the ones everyone suspects of secretly being evil, like cats.)

@Havelocke: While I do think Belkar is improving, I am really not keen on him being a god. There's enough evil gods.

I'd rather Banjo made it into a pantheon.

[Squire Doodad]

Didn’t we already see this? Like, on this page even?

Even more recently:



OK so, what about this? Belkar will draw his last breath as a mortal, and become a GOD! He already calls himself the shoeless god of war, what if we really DOES become a GOD? Would that fulfill the prophecy accurately? Am I late to this party?
It's been proposed before, yes. The main arguments against are:
1.) it would be senseless for the Oracle to gloat about Belkar becoming a god
B.) hardly anyone even knows who Belkar is, let alone cares about him, so him being deified seems really out there.

[Peelee]

Does being less selfish not equate being less evil?

If he kills the same number of people he would have if he weren't less selfish, for example, does it really matter?,

[Themrys]

If he kills the same number of people he would have if he weren't less selfish, for example, does it really matter?,

Kill count is a really bad way to determine alignment in a comic based on D&D.

The whole premise of the game is that you can kill sentient creatures while being lawful good, as long as those sentient creatures are all evil.

So, yeah, I'd say Belkar refraining from cheating the gnome who sold him his new cloak clasp out of even more money does matter with regards to his alignment.

His change might not matter much to the universe in general, since evil people he murders out of sadism are just as dead as evil people he murders to save the world, but I thought we were discussing his alignment.

[Peelee]

Kill count is a really bad way to determine alignment in a comic based on D&D.

Murder count, then.

Also, I've never played a game where one can murder all they want, then just stop one day and be counted as neutral. Can't much say I'd have interest in such a game, seems crazy arbitrary.

[RatElemental]

Murder count, then.

Also, I've never played a game where one can murder all they want, then just stop one day and be counted as neutral. Can't much say I'd have interest in such a game, seems crazy arbitrary.

It would come down to why the character has stopped murdering.

"Because there's nothing left to kill!"- Still evil
"Because I don't want to run afoul of the law"- Still probably evil, might be more lawful.
"Because I need to pretend I'm not evil or I won't get to kill things anymore"- Definitely still evil
"Because I've come to realize that what I was doing was wrong"- Genuine shift towards good

Hell, by raw if you have the right splatbooks in play a sufficiently charismatic person can have a formerly unrepentant murderer questioning their actions and turning good within two weeks. They just might need an atonement spell to wash away any corruption from any particularly vile actions.

[Peelee]

It would come down to why the character has stopped murdering.

"Because there's nothing left to kill!"- Still evil
"Because I don't want to run afoul of the law"- Still probably evil, might be more lawful.
"Because I need to pretend I'm not evil or I won't get to kill things anymore"- Definitely still evil
"Because I've come to realize that what I was doing was wrong"- Genuine shift towards good

Hell, by raw if you have the right splatbooks in play a sufficiently charismatic person can have a formerly unrepentant murderer questioning their actions and turning good within two weeks. They just might need an atonement spell to wash away any corruption from any particularly vile actions.

Belkar has yet to realize he was wrong. He has not expressed any sentiment indicating that might be the case. His revelation that turned him around was explicitly not "stop being evil," it was "stop antagonizing everyone." He is less grating to others, less in-your-face with his Evil, sure. But less Evil? I see no indication of change or desire to change.

[Angelalex242]

I'm not sure Belkar as he is CAN change. The one time he was hit with Owl's Wisdom, he promptly became a peaceful soul and not at all murderhappy. Once it was dispelled, he became a psycho again. His alignment appears directly tied to his wisdom score.

[The MunchKING]

Belkar has yet to realize he was wrong. He has not expressed any sentiment indicating that might be the case. His revelation that turned him around was explicitly not "stop being evil," it was "stop antagonizing everyone." He is less grating to others, less in-your-face with his Evil, sure. But less Evil? I see no indication of change or desire to change.

He seems to understand the concept that he CAN change, and it will take some introspection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html). He also apologized for some of his specific inflicting of wrongs. But I agree that we haven't seen him actually put forth a serious effort at repentance. He seems to be sliding towards "less evil" but it's a slow slide rather than a dramatic rejection of evil.


Murder count, then.

I was trying to think of the last time he killed for fun, rather than the group's goals...

IIRC, this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1054.html) is the most recent one where he's talking about being cool with killin' fools, but it's part of the whole save-the-world thing, so I don't know if it's really that much worse than Haley or V killing those giants.

I think you'd have to go back to Nonamicus in the gladiatorial thing to get to the last one that he was cool with murdering that wasn't part of the group's goals. He only let Scruffy kill him because he didn't want another "sort of punished but not really" story line.

And of course that was before Durkon sacrificed himself, and thus the major catalyst for Belkar's change.

[Angelalex242]

As for what kills Belkar?

Occam's Razor would suggest: the Snarl.

Can't get True Rezzed if that kills you.

[RatElemental]

As for what kills Belkar?

Occam's Razor would suggest: the Snarl.

Can't get True Rezzed if that kills you.

It also handily lets the giant leave the issue of his redemption ambiguous.

[woweedd]

We know that Belkar is getting less obnoxious and selfish about his Evil. I do not at all know he is getting less Evil.
I'd argue he clearly has. IF I just had this book to go on, I wouldn't say he's anything worse then Chaotic Neutral. He's clearly improving, even if he still hasn't reached one/one millionth of redemption.

[Schroeswald]

He seems to understand the concept that he CAN change, and it will take some introspection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html). He also apologized for some of his specific inflicting of wrongs. But I agree that we haven't seen him actually put forth a serious effort at repentance. He seems to be sliding towards "less evil" but it's a slow slide rather than a dramatic rejection of evil.
Ah, Halfling Baby Steps Are Very Small, also known as Belkar is on the Path to Redemption, He’s Just Moving Very Slowly.

[hroþila]

Ah, Halfling Baby Steps Are Very Small, also known as Belkar is on the Path to Redemption, He’s Just Moving Very Slowly.
I think the problem with this kind of talk is the unspoken assumption that the path is a straight road to redemption. Even when people take into account that Belkar doesn't have much time left, the underlying assumption is that he'd be redeemed if he had time on his side. But in reality, Belkar has just taken a few steps away from the polar extreme of Evilness. None of the traits he has recently acquired are even rare among Evil characters, after all.

So my opinion is that yes, Belkar is less Evil in absolute terms, and that does put him closer to being Neutral than he used to be, but that's a far cry from being close to Neutral, or even on the road to neutrality, except in the most general sense that would also apply e.g. to Redcloak's realization that hobgoblins are his people too. I imagine that's ultimately what rubs Peelee the wrong way.

[Schroeswald]

I think the problem with this kind of talk is the unspoken assumption that the path is a straight road to redemption. Even when people take into account that Belkar doesn't have much time left, the underlying assumption is that he'd be redeemed if he had time on his side. But in reality, Belkar has just taken a few steps away from the polar extreme of Evilness. None of the traits he has recently acquired are even rare among Evil characters, after all.

So my opinion is that yes, Belkar is less Evil in absolute terms, and that does put him closer to being Neutral than he used to be, but that's a far cry from being close to Neutral, or even on the road to neutrality, except in the most general sense that would also apply e.g. to Redcloak's realization that hobgoblins are his people too. I imagine that's ultimately what rubs Peelee the wrong way.
I would like to point out that you have to look at what is being said in that strip, Durkon is talking to Belkar about how Good is a slippery slope, you do one good thing and doing more starts to feel better, so you do more good, which makes you feel better, so you do more good, if you think that was just the Giant giving a philosophy on Good you are seriously misunderstanding it, Belkar has started to do more (slightly) Good things, he’s trekking upwards, and will be finding out that he likes it, Durkon has recognized that he’s moving upward a little bit, and so he tells Belkar that as you move up it can get easier (he’s also telling the audience this because it is still partly the Giant giving a philosophy on Good), and then when Belkar starts to like what he hears and puts it into Ultimate Extreme terms (because he’s still Evil), Durkon realizes that can help him understand it better and uses those terms, as Belkar moves a halfling baby step by apologizing about a minor act of Evil, he is still very far from Neutral, but Good is a slippery slope, he will find that after one of his halfling baby step he’s going to fall, and that slope will carry him towards, I doubt he’ll live to make it to Good but I doubt even more that he won’t live to make it to Neutral.

[hroþila]

I would like to point out that you have to look at what is being said in that strip, Durkon is talking to Belkar about how Good is a slippery slope, you do one good thing and doing more starts to feel better, so you do more good, which makes you feel better, so you do more good, if you think that was just the Giant giving a philosophy on Good you are seriously misunderstanding it, Belkar has started to do more (slightly) Good things, he’s trekking upwards, and will be finding out that he likes it, Durkon has recognized that he’s moving upward a little bit, and so he tells Belkar that as you move up it can get easier (he’s also telling the audience this because it is still partly the Giant giving a philosophy on Good), and then when Belkar starts to like what he hears and puts it into Ultimate Extreme terms (because he’s still Evil), Durkon realizes that can help him understand it better and uses those terms, as Belkar moves a halfling baby step by apologizing about a minor act of Evil, he is still very far from Neutral, but Good is a slippery slope, he will find that after one of his halfling baby step he’s going to fall, and that slope will carry him towards, I doubt he’ll live to make it to Good but I doubt even more that he won’t live to make it to Neutral.
None of that makes it inevitable, or easy. Durkon was trying to encourage Belkar, of course he'd focus on the positive feedback loop which I'm not denying is a thing. But the comic also gave us "Redemption is not for everyone", after all.

[Schroeswald]

None of that makes it inevitable, or easy. Durkon was trying to encourage Belkar, of course he'd focus on the positive feedback loop which I'm not denying is a thing. But the comic also gave us "Redemption is not for everyone", after all.
It’s not going to be easy of course, I’m not saying it will be, but this comic is all about morality, it’s not going to go without a successful redemption ark, especially when one of the clearest statements about morality is that it feels Good to feel Good, which is a much better thing to focus on when it is said to the character in the middle of a redemption ark, and I would also much rather look at that comic to see what you must do:
“True Redemption requires that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you. That you even acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong.” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html)
And well look at this, it seems to me that Belkar is in the midst of doing these things, on a small scale currently (because he’s Evil, and is taking halfling baby steps), but he is taking these steps.

[KorvinStarmast]

“True Redemption requires that you seek forgiveness for your past misdeeds. That you atone for the actions that caused the Twelve Gods to turn away from you. That you even acknowledge that you could, in fact, be wrong.” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) I have yet to see Belkar admit to being wrong, but he is certainly somewhat conflicted internally (see his raging remarks as he tries to and eventually succeeds in getting through the anti life shell during the end of the vamp battle).

[Schroeswald]

I have yet to see Belkar admit to being wrong, but he is certainly somewhat conflicted internally (see his raging remarks as he tries to and eventually succeeds in getting through the anti life shell during the end of the vamp battle).
I’d say his apology to Durkon counts as recognizing that he was wrong to hit him in the face with a palm tree, it also counts as seeking forgiveness but that’s because that the thing is much more specific to Miko (and others that don’t lie in the Good row who think that they do), because recognizing that he could be wrong goes hand in hand with seeking forgiveness and atoning for Belkar (and also those like Xykon or Tarquin if they went through a redemption ark).

[Themrys]

As for what kills Belkar?

Occam's Razor would suggest: the Snarl.

Can't get True Rezzed if that kills you.

Belkar doesn't have to be killed by the Snarl to not return.

Roy has made it rather clear that he does not intend to resurrect Belkar. I don't think anyone else will want him to return, either.

[KorvinStarmast]

Roy has made it rather clear that he does not intend to resurrect Belkar. I don't think anyone else will want him to return, either. Mr Scruffy would likely appreciate it. :smallcool: And Bloodfeast.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Clearly, a resurrected Miko, a revealed MITD, and Redcloak's niece will kill Belkar, but they will do it in order to give Elan a happy ending.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Vampires usually have trouble digesting or even enjoying non-blood food. We can't be sure that is the case in OotS, but it is not an unreasonable hypothesis. And the problem with immortality is that you can't retire, because you aren't getting any older, and thus at best you'd take sabbaticals.

Grey WolfWe do know that undead like cake made from the flesh of mortals.

Also, a 401K would definitely still be worthwhile for an ageless being. You can save until you're wealthy enough to live off your investments.

[Themrys]

Mr Scruffy would likely appreciate it. :smallcool: And Bloodfeast.

Sure, but they won't be able to get someone to resurrect Belkar.

Even if you convinced Roy that Belkar was in the process of changing, he'd probably not want to risk it.

If they started resurrecting people to give them a chance at redemption, Miko would be a likelier candidate.

[D.One]

I'm out of crazy nonsense ideas to kill Belkar right now, since both Man-Go and potara fusion were absurd enough, but I'll comment on the "less evil" debate.

Is Belkar Good now? Surely no.
Is he remotely close to Good? Hel, no.
Is he Neutral? Probably not.
Is he less Evil? Probably yes, since his kilonazi count has dropped since encountering Roy and seems to be on a tendency to drop, at least in the graph shown.

[RatElemental]

Belkar doesn't have to be killed by the Snarl to not return.

Roy has made it rather clear that he does not intend to resurrect Belkar. I don't think anyone else will want him to return, either.

Durkon, the one actually capable of doing the resurrecting and who Belkar has already showed signs of turning over a new leaf to, might.

[Angelalex242]

I tend to think Durkon's team loyalty would have him resurrect Belkar if he could. He wouldn't just intentionally leave him dead. Which goes back to my vote for the Snarl. Then there's nothing kind hearted Durkon can do.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sure, but they won't be able to get someone to resurrect Belkar. I think there is someone who would.

Durkon, the one actually capable of doing the resurrecting and who Belkar has already showed signs of turning over a new leaf to, might. And Hilgya might, depending on who asked her. (Elan, perhaps, who seems to get along with her).
If they started resurrecting people to give them a chance at redemption, Miko would be a likelier candidate. That would be OK by me, but at this point I think she'd need a True Resurrection as I don't think her body parts survived the clean up after the taking of Azure City by the Goblins and Hobgoblins. And I think Rich has said TR isn't a feature in OoTS world, or maybe that he'd not use it as it is such a menace to narrative ... I think it's best to leave Miko in whatever afterlife she ended up in.

[Rrmcklin]

I do not think this story is going to the direction of "Belkar's dead? Okay, screw him, let's move on", so, yes, something is going to have to make bringing him back impossible.

Too many characters are having/have had characters arcs that would make that neither emotionally nor narratively satisfying.

[Squire Doodad]

Durkon, the one actually capable of doing the resurrecting and who Belkar has already showed signs of turning over a new leaf to, might.

Which is part of the issue - which is why it seems like Belkar being knocked down and disintegrated seems like the most probable outcome if we disregard the Snarl. Undeadilyzing him wouldn't be something the Oracle enjoys nor something that honestly feels like it would have the right level of punch. Same goes for deification, which has another 50 problems. Overall, Belkar is probably going to die in a True Res scenario, or to the Snarl (other situations might occur, but I wouldn't know which ones). The finer points, like if its in the final battle or from a skirmish or what, are what we have lots more speculation about.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Ah, Halfling Baby Steps Are Very Small, also known as Belkar is on the Path to Redemption, He’s Just Moving Very Slowly.

This reminded me of something, but its a silly hypothesis I came up with and not worth taking seriously.

The title "Halfling Baby Steps Are Very Small" could be the title of a strip down the road where belker knocks up that woman from the thieves guild and his baby makes him change his mind on his ways, his methods and stops being evil "for his son" or whatever.

Or he dies and refuses ressurection to avoid child support payments, because in death you can't take your wealth with you, but you don't need it in death, and they can't take your money if you don't have any.

I always thought the "belker" who died in roys dream in that pyramid where they were all entranced was the belker the oracle was talking about. Theres holes in that theory, but a belker who dies in a dream sequence could technically still count, I guess. He tried several loop holes to get out of dying before, and he has 4th wall breaking powers, talking to the readers directly ala dead pool.

Then theres the concept of belkers evil tendencies dying and "belker" as they knew him was no more and character growth induced belker has filled his shoes, and it was a metaphorical death, not a literal one.

Of course, theres always the snarl eternal death route.

Take the above with a grain of salt. I wasn't really serious and was just throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks. Have a good day everyone.

[CriticalFailure]

True res is mentioned to exist in the comic; when Roy's skeleton gets golemified they discuss needed a 17th level cleric to raise him without it and mention that they don't know if any exist. It seems likely that it's avoided by the fact that the only person involved in any of the story (and quite likely the only person in the world) with access to true res very decidedly does not control his team's finances and who does or doesn't get resurrected. And also currently doesn't have any particularly reason to be trying to do a true res.

Because he's too ashamed to face the main person he'd want to resurrect.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Due to this past arc for the Roy-Belkar relationship and the Durkon-Belkar Relationship, I imagine when Belkar dies Roy won't have the same attitude as he did in the Microcosm. They'll find a way.

[Peelee]

Due to this past arc for the Roy-Belkar relationship and the Durkon-Belkar Relationship, I imagine when Belkar dies Roy won't have the same attitude as he did in the Microcosm. They'll find a way.

... Except we know they won't.

[The MunchKING]

Due to this past arc for the Roy-Belkar relationship and the Durkon-Belkar Relationship, I imagine when Belkar dies Roy won't have the same attitude as he did in the Microcosm. They'll find a way.

To give him a little respect at his funeral rather than say blowing it off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html) or doing some Perform (jig) checks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html), maybe. But bring him back? They will not.

[hroþila]

I think there's a pretty decent chance that they won't bring Belkar back not because they won't want to, but because they won't be able to.

[Emanick]

It's also just possible that Belkar will die before the climax of the story and that, in a moment of profound character growth (or at least growth in the field of "team spirit"), Roy will decide to bring Belkar back, out of a mixture of pragmatism and team solidarity, and perhaps partly because he expects Belkar to die permanently anyway before the end of the year.

Then Belkar dies for good in the final battle, but the prior death and resurrection will have acted as a nice twist.

[Garwain]

Every team member has had their moment in the spotlight, except Belkar. He is now on a slow but steady route to redemption. This is going to be the subject of the next book. I'm predicting that Belkar will 'take one for the team' and die, just as Kraagor died. No coincidence ofcourse that the next gate is in Kraagor's tombe.

[brian 333]

Every team member has had their moment in the spotlight, except Belkar. He is now on a slow but steady route to redemption. This is going to be the subject of the next book. I'm predicting that Belkar will 'take one for the team' and die, just as Kraagor died. No coincidence ofcourse that the next gate is in Kraagor's tombe.

My thought as well.

[Peelee]

Every team member has had their moment in the spotlight, except Belkar. He is now on a slow but steady route to redemption. This is going to be the subject of the next book. I'm predicting that Belkar will 'take one for the team' and die, just as Kraagor died. No coincidence ofcourse that the next gate is in Kraagor's tombe.

How did Kraagor die?

[jwhouk]

How did Kraagor die?

The crayon story of Soon suggests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) he died as the spell was cast to seal the last gate - and it also seemed to suggest that it was a case of perceived "friendly fire" by Soon. But - we never saw what exactly happened.

[Fyraltari]

My read is that Dorukan's and Lirian's spell sucked him into the Rift as reality folded to close it by making the Gate.

[KorvinStarmast]

My read is that Dorukan's and Lirian's spell sucked him into the Rift as reality folded to close it by making the Gate. I have the weird idea that Kraagor will be found wearing sunglasses and a swim suit while living on a beach in that mostly water/ocean filled world that Laurin saw through the gate in the Desert in BRiTF. :smallbiggrin: He'll be sipping a rum based drink, and complaining that you can't get a decent mug of beer on this world ... :smallcool: ... dwarves live long enough for this to be possible.

Belkar's infamous "maybe someone's been yanking everybone's chain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html)" observation keeps cropping up as I ponder this. Maybe that's Rich dropping a big hint ...

What Blackwing saw included a land mass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

Therefore, that world has a beach somewhere.

[D.One]

What Blackwing saw included a land mass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

Therefore, that world has a beach somewhere.

IF both worlds seem are the same...

[KorvinStarmast]

IF both worlds seem are the same... If the Snarl has a lot of worlds in its tummy (greedy little god killing abomination) - then yes, each gate could show a slightly different aspect of the Snarl and thus a different world.

[jidasfire]

My own personal theory on this is Belkar chooses his death. Maybe it's because in some major battle to come, the IFCC calls V to keep them out of the fight, and Belkar, knowing the wizard will be more needed than he is, decides to go down there and rescue his frenemy the only way he knows how: with violence! Of course, he has to die to get down to the Hells, so he tells old Durkon to look after Mr. Scruffy and makes sure he dies somehow. He fights his way through the lower planes, rescues V, and decides not to come back, on account of the fact that he's having the time of his afterlife killing every demon and devil he meets. I think that would be a nice ending for him, after a fashion.

[woweedd]

My own personal theory on this is Belkar chooses his death. Maybe it's because in some major battle to come, the IFCC calls V to keep them out of the fight, and Belkar, knowing the wizard will be more needed than he is, decides to go down there and rescue his frenemy the only way he knows how: with violence! Of course, he has to die to get down to the Hells, so he tells old Durkon to look after Mr. Scruffy and makes sure he dies somehow. He fights his way through the lower planes, rescues V, and decides not to come back, on account of the fact that he's having the time of his afterlife killing every demon and devil he meets. I think that would be a nice ending for him, after a fashion.
Not how that works. The Abyss would chew him up.

[Peelee]

My own personal theory on this is Belkar chooses his death. Maybe it's because in some major battle to come, the IFCC calls V to keep them out of the fight, and Belkar, knowing the wizard will be more needed than he is, decides to go down there and rescue his frenemy the only way he knows how: with violence! Of course, he has to die to get down to the Hells, so he tells old Durkon to look after Mr. Scruffy and makes sure he dies somehow. He fights his way through the lower planes, rescues V, and decides not to come back, on account of the fact that he's having the time of his afterlife killing every demon and devil he meets. I think that would be a nice ending for him, after a fashion.

Death, and everything that entails. The thing Xykon, an epic-level sorcerer is afraid of. That death. Will be overcome by some guy who likes to stab people.

.....5 gold on "not that."

[woweedd]

Death, and everything that entails. The thing Xykon, an epic-level sorcerer is afraid of. That death. Will be overcome by some guy who likes to stab people.

.....5 gold on "not that."
To be fair, we're referring to a universe where death can be regularly, if temporarily, thwarted by a a mid-level Cleric and a satchel of crushed-up carbon. And, for that matter, i'm reasonably certain Belkar's now one of, if not the, highest-level Ranger in the world. But I get your point.

[Zarhan]

First time poster. Been reading OOTS for the last few years, now have all the books. Anyway, I've been lurking on the forums for a while, and it seems that everyone assumes that Oracle must be right about Belkar's immident demise. So I have my own theory:

Belkar is not going to die (permanently) until much later, perhaps even of old age. Definitely not by the end of the (in-comic) year. We have been teased with his death a few times already (getting drained by Durkon*, dominated and made to jump off Mechane by Durkon*, pushed off the mountain by Durkon* and some cases not instigated by Durkon* as well). Storytelling demands that we'll probably get a few more in the same vein. Maybe he'll even die (as in HP to -10), but not *permanently*.

It's also not going to be a "technical" loophole (becoming undead or something along those lines).

No, the Oracle is going to be wrong on this one, plain and simple.

This draws back to the #567, where Belkar gives feedback on the prophecy. Belkar's original did not come true until Belkar made it true (by killing Oracle).
Essentially: Belkar's CHOICE made him to self-fulfill the prophecy (and his curse activated and all that jazz). He could have simply decided NOT to kill the Oracle and instead gone "nyah-nyah-nyah" and insisted his money back. But that was Belkar before recent...changes.

So, we will see Belkar run into situation where he has to again make some big Choice. And this time he takes some other option than the one leading to his death (fulfilling the prophecy). It might even a Good vs Evil thing, such as running away vs. doing a heroic sacrifice. Of course we might get some further dramatics (it's supposed to be a story after all), such as him clearly appearing to be dead and not resurrectable (but then it turns out that Blackwing actually nabbed a piece of him for the spell or something). Meaning that the option that *should* kill him will actually end up sparing his life, while the running away will make rocks fall and everybody dies.

Or, well, the situation in #567 might even be completely reversed, with Oracle (with some pushing by Tiamat) coming to personally make sure the death prediction becomes true...

Reason why I've come to this conclusion? Mostly meta. The entire OOtS has been giving out pretty consistent message: Choices matter, even if prophecies and predictions and destinies are real things. Eugene's Blood Oath. Haley's choice to go out with Elan (Nale in disguise, but she didn't know that). Elan's speculation on would Nale have been the hero and he the jerk, and his choices about sparing Nale and letting Tarquin fall of Mechane. Durkon's whole life (as seen across book #6). Roy's regrets about abandoning Elan to bandits. Vaarsuvius' own choices with the dragon, and regrets, and atonement.

You'll note that the above list does not include Belkar. He hasn't yet had to make a *truly* hard choice - but it's going to come up, and it's going to keep him alive despite whatever Oracle might have thought.

(If you want to explain this mechanically, well, Oracle is channeling Tiamat, and even Tiamat doesn't know everything.).

Bottom line is that I simply do not think that we are going to see a classic "Redemption equals death" plot with regards to Belkar. Especially if it has been given years in advance.

Oracle will be wrong (and might try to weasel out claiming that he was accurate, after all, Belkar died during Girard's illusion and didn't come back).

[The MunchKING]

I don't think that will happen, but if it does, I'm guessing the Oracle get out of it by claiming the old Evil Belkar died when he made that Choice, and the new Good halfling is metaphorically a whole new guy.

Like I said, I doubt that will happen though because the Oracle has never been wrong before, AND he was as clear as he could be that it wasn't going to be a metaphorical death.

[Peelee]

First time poster. Been reading OOTS for the last few years, now have all the books. Anyway, I've been lurking on the forums for a while, and it seems that everyone assumes that Oracle must be right about Belkar's immident demise.

Well, "Belkar won't die" predictions are fairly frequent, but fair dues here, yours is an original one (to me, at least). I don't buy into it, mainly because I don't see the point of having an Oracle if the Oracle can be wrong. For Belkar specifically, the Oracle could have refunded his money and not died, or could have just said "no" and not had to worry about it to begin with, both of which would have been infinitely preferable to dying. Neither of those happened. The Oracle knew Belkar would kill him for being a jerk to him. The Oracle still chose to be a jerk to Belkar. Just because characters can make choices doesn't mean that the Oracle doesn't know what those choices will be. Belkar can still make the choices that lead to his death, and the Oracle would still know about them. If Belkar would end up making different choices, the Oracle would know about them instead.

[woweedd]

First time poster. Been reading OOTS for the last few years, now have all the books. Anyway, I've been lurking on the forums for a while, and it seems that everyone assumes that Oracle must be right about Belkar's immident demise. So I have my own theory:

Belkar is not going to die (permanently) until much later, perhaps even of old age. Definitely not by the end of the (in-comic) year. We have been teased with his death a few times already (getting drained by Durkon*, dominated and made to jump off Mechane by Durkon*, pushed off the mountain by Durkon* and some cases not instigated by Durkon* as well). Storytelling demands that we'll probably get a few more in the same vein. Maybe he'll even die (as in HP to -10), but not *permanently*.

It's also not going to be a "technical" loophole (becoming undead or something along those lines).

No, the Oracle is going to be wrong on this one, plain and simple.

This draws back to the #567, where Belkar gives feedback on the prophecy. Belkar's original did not come true until Belkar made it true (by killing Oracle).
Essentially: Belkar's CHOICE made him to self-fulfill the prophecy (and his curse activated and all that jazz). He could have simply decided NOT to kill the Oracle and instead gone "nyah-nyah-nyah" and insisted his money back. But that was Belkar before recent...changes.

So, we will see Belkar run into situation where he has to again make some big Choice. And this time he takes some other option than the one leading to his death (fulfilling the prophecy). It might even a Good vs Evil thing, such as running away vs. doing a heroic sacrifice. Of course we might get some further dramatics (it's supposed to be a story after all), such as him clearly appearing to be dead and not resurrectable (but then it turns out that Blackwing actually nabbed a piece of him for the spell or something). Meaning that the option that *should* kill him will actually end up sparing his life, while the running away will make rocks fall and everybody dies.

Or, well, the situation in #567 might even be completely reversed, with Oracle (with some pushing by Tiamat) coming to personally make sure the death prediction becomes true...

Reason why I've come to this conclusion? Mostly meta. The entire OOtS has been giving out pretty consistent message: Choices matter, even if prophecies and predictions and destinies are real things. Eugene's Blood Oath. Haley's choice to go out with Elan (Nale in disguise, but she didn't know that). Elan's speculation on would Nale have been the hero and he the jerk, and his choices about sparing Nale and letting Tarquin fall of Mechane. Durkon's whole life (as seen across book #6). Roy's regrets about abandoning Elan to bandits. Vaarsuvius' own choices with the dragon, and regrets, and atonement.

You'll note that the above list does not include Belkar. He hasn't yet had to make a *truly* hard choice - but it's going to come up, and it's going to keep him alive despite whatever Oracle might have thought.

(If you want to explain this mechanically, well, Oracle is channeling Tiamat, and even Tiamat doesn't know everything.).

Bottom line is that I simply do not think that we are going to see a classic "Redemption equals death" plot with regards to Belkar. Especially if it has been given years in advance.

Oracle will be wrong (and might try to weasel out claiming that he was accurate, after all, Belkar died during Girard's illusion and didn't come back).
The Oracle's predictions haven't been wrong yet. If his powers were faible to individual choice, he would have screwed up at some point, but he hasn't. He didn't, for instance, see any future where V never attained ultimate arcane power, or a world where V's method of attainment did not involve saying the right words at the right time to the right person for all the wrong reasons, nor did he see a future where Haley didn't get her speech back, a future where Elan's story doesn't end happily, a future where a future where Belkar didn't kill one of Roy, Miko, Miko's horse, V, or him, ETC.

[tawnyterror]

While I don't have a coherent scenario, I like to imagine his death won't be a selfless act at all, but through his actions he will make a substantial positive impact. He will do something violent and selfish (that will perhaps reaffirm his alignment) of course. Yet it will cause others to contemplate how they perceived him. It would be interesting if he manages to completely twist the outcome in a moment of tactlessness. I can almost hear him saying "this isn't fair".

[Yalkara]

I've got two theories on this.
The first is that Belkar pulls a Kraagor and dies to the snarl while sacrificing himself for a team mate as the snarl busts loose from its prison at the last second before the gods finally seal it away for good.

The second (the one I am personally hoping for) is that with all of the changes that Belkar has been going through at the end of the story he finally sees the error of his ways and takes a turn for the neutral (cause honestly he will never be "good") and decides that his old self is dead, he changes his name and leads a much less destructive life, perhaps even "helping" (IE: for pay) people by going after some of the more evil creatures left in the world.

[Peelee]

The second (the one I am personally hoping for) is that with all of the changes that Belkar has been going through at the end of the story he finally sees the error of his ways and takes a turn for the neutral (cause honestly he will never be "good") and decides that his old self is dead, he changes his name and leads a much less destructive life, perhaps even "helping" (IE: for pay) people by going after some of the more evil creatures left in the world.

How does that fit the other prophecies (he's not long for this world, should savor his next birthday cake, and shouldn't bother finding his IRA)? And, in case the answer is "not official prophecies," remember the entire purpose of the memory charm.

[Yalkara]

How does that fit the other prophecies (he's not long for this world, should savor his next birthday cake, and shouldn't bother finding his IRA)? And, in case the answer is "not official prophecies," remember the entire purpose of the memory charm.

He changes so much he fundamentally becomes a different person and the old Belkar is effectively dead and gone, heck he's halfway there already.

[KorvinStarmast]

How does that fit the other prophecies (he's not long for this world, should savor his next birthday cake, and shouldn't bother finding his IRA)? And, in case the answer is "not official prophecies," remember the entire purpose of the memory charm.He won't have to fund his IRA if the Order defeats the BBEG's since the loot at that level means that he can retire in comfort. :smallcool:

[woweedd]

He changes so much he fundamentally becomes a different person and the old Belkar is effectively dead and gone, heck he's halfway there already.
Bigger hole: The Oracle didn't just say Belkar. He also referred to "the halfling" and "your friend".

[Turin_19]

Every team member has had their moment in the spotlight, except Belkar. He is now on a slow but steady route to redemption. This is going to be the subject of the next book. I'm predicting that Belkar will 'take one for the team' and die, just as Kraagor died. No coincidence ofcourse that the next gate is in Kraagor's tombe.

Sorry, but I disagree. Belkar had his moment of glory in DStP. He is the one who undergoes the changes needed to rescue the order from completely falling out.

In that moment, Haley is facing the Thieves Guild with Celia, Roy is dead, Durkon and Elan are sitting on their thumbs, and V is going nuts. He is the first one to change for the rest of the order to follow.

[woweedd]

Sorry, but I disagree. Belkar had his moment of glory in DStP. He is the one who undergoes the changes needed to rescue the order from completely falling out.

In that moment, Haley is facing the Thieves Guild with Celia, Roy is dead, Durkon and Elan are sitting on their thumbs, and V is going nuts. He is the first one to change for the rest of the order to follow.
I have a running theory that all the books after DCF are meant as "focused" around a specific Order member:
. NCFTPB is Roy's book, as he sees his pseudo-reflection in Miko, begins to think of his non-Durkon companions as actual friends/comrades rather than just "the incompetent bunch of yahoos i'm stuck with", and learns to be a true leader to his party, someone who can earn their loyalty and be loyal in return.
. WAXP is Haley's book, since a large part of the plot centers on her internal conflict vis-a-vis getting her speech back.
. DSTP is V's book: They make a deal with fiends, commit genocide, get force-fed humble pie, and overall learn where their eternal greed for arcane power has led them: nowhere good.
. BRITF is Elan's book: he meets his father, sees how his narrative fixation can hurt people, and comes away hypotheically-wiser.
. UD is Durkon's book: I shouldn't have to explain this one.
. That leaves one book and one Order member: it's Belkar's time to shine.

[knag]

I have a running theory that all the books after DCF are meant as "focused" around a specific Order member:
. NCFTPB is Roy's book, as he sees his pseudo-reflection in Miko, begins to think of his non-Durkon companions as actual friends/comrades rather than just "the incompetent bunch of yahoos i'm stuck with", and learns to be a true leader to his party, someone who can earn their loyalty and be loyal in return.
. WAXP is Haley's book, since a large part of the plot centers on her internal conflict vis-a-vis getting her speech back.
. DSTP is V's book: They make a deal with fiends, commit genocide, get force-fed humble pie, and overall learn where their eternal greed for arcane power has led them: nowhere good.
. BRITF is Elan's book: he meets his father, sees how his narrative fixation can hurt people, and comes away hypotheically-wiser.
. UD is Durkon's book: I shouldn't have to explain this one.
. That leaves one book and one Order member: it's Belkar's time to shine.

I have had the same thought, though I think the case for NCPB and WXP being Roy- and Haley-centric is not as strong as the case for BRitF and UD. One could argue that DStP is actually Haley-focused, with the whole Greysky Thieves' Guild plot.

[woweedd]

I have had the same thought, though I think the case for NCPB and WXP being Roy- and Haley-centric is not as strong as the case for BRitF and UD. One could argue that DStP is actually Haley-focused, with the whole Greysky Thieves' Guild plot.
Yeah, fair, but, to me, DSTP pretty much has to be V's.

[Peelee]

He changes so much he fundamentally becomes a different person and the old Belkar is effectively dead and gone, heck he's halfway there already.


Bigger hole: The Oracle didn't just say Belkar. He also referred to "the halfling" and "your friend".

And the Oracle, who dislikes humanoids in general and hates Belkar in particular, revels in revealing that Belkar will get a change of heart because....?

When you've already achieved a conclusion and are trying to find evidence to support that conclusion, then you can twist things however you want, regardless of what the evidence is.

[Elves]

I have a running theory that all the books after DCF are meant as "focused" around a specific Order member:
. NCFTPB is Roy's book, as he sees his pseudo-reflection in Miko, begins to think of his non-Durkon companions as actual friends/comrades rather than just "the incompetent bunch of yahoos i'm stuck with", and learns to be a true leader to his party, someone who can earn their loyalty and be loyal in return.
. WAXP is Haley's book, since a large part of the plot centers on her internal conflict vis-a-vis getting her speech back.
. DSTP is V's book: They make a deal with fiends, commit genocide, get force-fed humble pie, and overall learn where their eternal greed for arcane power has led them: nowhere good.
. BRITF is Elan's book: he meets his father, sees how his narrative fixation can hurt people, and comes away hypotheically-wiser.
. UD is Durkon's book: I shouldn't have to explain this one.
. That leaves one book and one Order member: it's Belkar's time to shine.

He explicitly says this in the NCFTPB commentary (that it's Roy's book). So yes, 1 for the gang and then 1 for each.

[The MunchKING]

And the Oracle, who dislikes humanoids in general and hates Belkar in particular, revels in revealing that Belkar will get a change of heart because....?

Not that I believe it, but the answer would seem to be "to make him live the rest of the year in existential dread about when he will breath his last".

[Peelee]

Not that I believe it, but the answer would seem to be "to make him live the rest of the year in existential dread about when he will breath his last".

Except he wouldn't live the rest of the year in existential dread, since he forgets about it the second the leaves he valley.:smalltongue:

[The MunchKING]

Except he wouldn't live the rest of the year in existential dread, since he forgets about it the second the leaves he valley.:smalltongue:

Well yeah, when Roy tells him about it outside though, THEN the dread kicks in.

[Peelee]

Well yeah, when Roy tells him about it outside though, THEN the dread kicks in.

Roy hasn't told him yet. Presumably the Oracle would look to see if he would.

Imean, that's assuming the Oracle wouldn't look to see if Belkar would even feel that in the first place, and even then he'd get at most less than a year's worth of Belkar feeling kinda sorta weird? The Oracle would really stink in this hypothetical.

[The MunchKING]

Roy hasn't told him yet.

He SEEMS to have. He keeps repeatedly saying "You'll die long before me".

[Peelee]

He SEEMS to have. He keeps repeatedly saying "You'll die long before me".

That doesn't really provoke any sort of existential dread, though. Especially since, so far as Belkar knows, Roy's never been to the Oracle without him there.

[Schroeswald]

He explicitly says this in the NCFTPB commentary (that it's Roy's book). So yes, 1 for the gang and then 1 for each.

NCFTPB may be more Roy’s book than the others, but the first half of OOTS is his story more than anyone else’s, it’s not til later in DSTP that others start getting more equal footing to him (though still no one is anywhere close).

[knag]

NCFTPB may be more Roy’s book than the others, but the first half of OOTS is his story more than anyone else’s, it’s not til later in DSTP that others start getting more equal footing to him (though still no one is anywhere close).

Roy appears in about 170 more strips overall than V. Even in DStP, ostensibly V's book, Roy appears in 66 strips to V's 60. In WXP, supposedly Haley's book, Roy appears in 88 strips to Haley's 79. In UD, with the title explicitly referencing Durkon, Roy appears in 129 strips and Durkon only 116. BRitF is the only book where the "focus" character has more appearances than Roy (169 for Elan, 141 for Roy). Not that this is a revelation, but you are absolutely right. The overall story is about Roy Greenhilt.

[woweedd]

Roy appears in about 170 more strips overall than V. Even in DStP, ostensibly V's book, Roy appears in 66 strips to V's 60. In WXP, supposedly Haley's book, Roy appears in 88 strips to Haley's 79. In UD, with the title explicitly referencing Durkon, Roy appears in 129 strips and Durkon only 116. BRitF is the only book where the "focus" character has more appearances than Roy (169 for Elan, 141 for Roy). Not that this is a revelation, but you are absolutely right. The overall story is about Roy Greenhilt.
Well, it's not ONLY about him: OOTS is an Ensemble Cast, yet another concept Tarquin can't grasp. But, yes, Roy is the one the spotlight turns to most often.

[D.One]

Draw last breath ever + not fund IRA + savor next birthday cake + not long for the world = Belkar will become unaging (thus rendering the birthday cake and the IRA kinda moot), and will move to another world, but before that he'll use his newly discovered drawing talent to draw a dragon breathing fire. :smalltongue:

[Jasdoif]

Draw last breath ever + not fund IRA + savor next birthday cake + not long for the world = Belkar will become unaging (thus rendering the birthday cake and the IRA kinda moot), and will move to another world, but before that he'll use his newly discovered drawing talent to draw a dragon breathing fire. :smalltongue:And after that, he dies.

[Peelee]

And after that, he dies.

/cue Alanis Morissette

[Fyraltari]

At this point, I'm half expecting Belkar to slip on a patch of ice on the North Pole and bump his head on a random rock and die of the head trauma.

[hroþila]

/cue Alanis Morissette
I get it, because Belkar oughta know.

[Jasdoif]

I get it, because Belkar oughta know.You mean....Roy was there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) to remind him of the mess he left (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0569.html) when he went away (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html)?

[hroþila]

You mean....Roy was there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) to remind him of the mess he left (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0569.html) when he went away (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html)?
This is perfect.

[D.One]

Will we ever get to know Rakleb, the jolly and gentle giant?

[Quebbster]

This is perfect.

Just missing a cross-eyed bear. I suppose the dead owlbear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html) is Close enough.
maybe it wasn't fair to remind you of that?

[Jasdoif]

Just missing a cross-eyed bear. I suppose the dead owlbear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html) is Close enough.The bear was in Start of Darkness, and Redcloak did deny it, and it was not fair.

[KorvinStarmast]

The bear was in Start of Darkness, and Redcloak did deny it, and it was not fair. *golf clap* nicely done. :smallsmile:

[gatemansgc]

pretty sure multiple people have suggested it already but i think he's going to be annihilated after trying to stab the snarl. because it's a 100% belkar way to die.

[woweedd]

pretty sure multiple people have suggested it already but i think he's going to be annihilated after trying to stab the snarl. because it's a 100% belkar way to die.
I'm definitely going for some great act of self-sacrifice to save the world, possibly with his final words being "It...doesn't...hurt?" as his Protection From Evil clasp burns out around him.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm definitely going for some great act of self-sacrifice to save the world, possibly with his final words being "It...doesn't...hurt?" as his Protection From Evil clasp burns out around him. Neat idea.
I have a different idea.
He gets grappled by the Snarl.
He ends up in/on the world inside the snarl.
And there's nobody else there, on the beach. Belkar is sitting on a oversized kitty litter box (the beach) but Mr Scruffy is still back in OoTS world.

Belkar either dies of raw melancholy, missing the only friend he's ever had, or he dies of sheer boredom. One thing about Belkar that Rich has portrayed throughout OoTS: he gets bored easily.

[woweedd]

Neat idea.
I have a different idea.
He gets grappled by the Snarl.
He ends up in/on the world inside the snarl.
And there's nobody else there, on the beach. Belkar is sitting on a oversized kitty litter box (the beach) but Mr Scruffy is still back in OoTS world.

Belkar either dies of raw melancholy, missing the only friend he's ever had, or he dies of sheer boredom. One thing about Belkar that Rich has portrayed throughout OoTS: he gets bored easily.
Hm...Seems more tragicomic then anything. I feel like, given the direction of his undeniable character development. Belkar's only fitting end is to go out saving the rest of The Order, probably the rest of the world. We met him as an utterly selfish opportunist,who, however outwardly-charming he may have been, would stab a baby if he thought he'd get something out of it: By the end, he sacrifices his life to save his friends and/or the world, demonstrating courage and loyalty that would have been unthinkable to the Halfling we first met.

[Rrmcklin]

He changes so much he fundamentally becomes a different person and the old Belkar is effectively dead and gone, heck he's halfway there already.

The Oracle was very clearly being literal, not metaphorical. Why would he enjoy taunting Belkar with the fact that he'll become a better person, as opposed with him being super dead?

[woweedd]

The Oracle was very clearly being literal, not metaphorical. Why would he enjoy taunting Belkar with the fact that he'll become a better person, as opposed with him being super dead?
To be fair, I could see The Oracle playing word-games for the sale pf giving Belkar that impression. Not like he'll know once he leaves anyway. Mind you, the larger problem with that idea is that, even if Belkar does reform utterly and completely, he'll still be "the halfling" and "your friend". The Oracle didn't always address him by name in saying he'll die.

[Rrmcklin]

I have to be honest, even if you love Belkar, I still don't get why so many people are trying the same old tricks to wiggle out a way to Belkar isn't really going to die.

If this was a story about "fighting fate" or whatever that have a point, but nothing else in the story has shown that inclination. Why would it suddenly do so for this particular predication?

[RowenMorland]

Maybe instead of being killed by the Snarl he will become one with it.

[woweedd]

Maybe instead of being killed by the Snarl he will become one with it.
How? Also, wha?

[D.One]

Entangled in threads of reality raw
He'll merge in a knot and be rid of them all
Away from this world, away from this life
He'll cut the beyond with the edge of his knife
In peace, soul and mind, he'll be present no more
Thus departs sexy shoeless god of war.

[KorvinStarmast]

Entangled in threads of reality raw
He'll merge in a knot and be rid of them all
Away from this world, away from this life
He'll cut the beyond with the edge of his knife
In peace, soul and mind, he'll be present no more
Thus departs sexy shoeless god of war.

I think it scans better as
Farewell sexy shoeless god of war

But I like it anyway! :smallcool:

[D.One]

I think it scans better as
Farewell sexy shoeless god of war

But I like it anyway! :smallcool:

It fits better, I agree. Anyway, haven't really found a phrasing for that last line with a rhythm that satisfies me yet.

[Malroth]

I've always suspected He'll die to a cheesy Optimized Kobold.

[D.One]

I've always suspected He'll die to a cheesy Optimized Kobold.

If he has to die to anything cheesy, it must be to a hobgoblin. It would be a gouda death.

[Darth V]

New crazy crackpot theory: Belkar dies of alcohol poisoning. Halflings just can't handle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1180.html) dwarven beer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1182.html), but nobody of the order knows this yet... :smallbiggrin:
Given that Belkar can't even keep up with the speed and volume of dwarven binge drinking counting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html) when there's only bog-standard tankards of moose urine involved, just imagine what the real stuff might do to a fragile halfling single liver... :smalleek:

[KorvinStarmast]

New crazy crackpot theory: Belkar dies of alcohol poisoning. Halflings just can't handle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1180.html) dwarven beer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1182.html), but nobody of the order knows this yet... :smallbiggrin:
Given that Belkar can't even keep up with the speed and volume of dwarven binge drinking counting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html) when there's only bog-standard tankards of moose urine involved, just imagine what the real stuff might do to a fragile halfling single liver... :smalleek: ... more kissing of an elf seems to be where this idea leads, before liver failure ...

[Quizatzhaderac]

Silly question: do we have a good reason to think any of the outer planes are incapable of supporting the existence of cake?

I'm kind of thinking that dying isn't actually that big of an impediment to having cakes on your birthday.

[Fyraltari]

Silly question: do we have a good reason to think any of the outer planes are incapable of supporting the existence of cake?

I'm kind of thinking that dying isn't actually that big of an impediment to having cakes on your birthday.
How often do you think the damned get cake in the Abyss ? :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

How often do you think the damned get cake in the Abyss ? :smalltongue:

To be fair, even if he gets to have birthday cake, I doubt he would be able to (or want to) savor it, given the source.

[The MunchKING]

How often do you think the damned get cake in the Abyss ? :smalltongue:

The other answer is if it's the evil version of Celestia, he'll probably get tortured so much he loses track of all passage of time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0499.html), and forgets when his birthday is, let alone that it is that day in the mortal world.

[F.Harr]

Heroism! It'll be SO embarasing!

[Quizatzhaderac]

How often do you think the damned get cake in the Abyss ? :smalltongue:There are more kinds of cake than fire (https://www.nuklearpower.com/2010/02/13/episode-1219-earthcake/), so a sufficiently random environment should have more cake than fire. Given that the plane is chaotic and described as containing fire, we can conclude it most likely contains cake as well.

[KorvinStarmast]

There are more kinds of cake than fire (https://www.nuklearpower.com/2010/02/13/episode-1219-earthcake/), so a sufficiently random environment should have more cake than fire. Given that the plane is chaotic and described as containing fire, we can conclude it most likely contains cake as well. I had forgotten how often Clevinger has made me laugh over the years ... thanks. :smallsmile:

[Dion]

I bet he’s killed by a train, because foreshadowing.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I bet he’s killed by a train, because foreshadowing.I bet that he's killed by four shadowdancers, because foreshadowing.

[thekingofb]

Another thing is, Vampires convert through grapple and blood drain. I am guessing Belkar, who uses light weapons, would be hard to pin down, and can keep fighting while grappled, would off himself over becoming someone else's puppet.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Another thing is, Vampires convert through grapple and blood drain. I am guessing Belkar, who uses light weapons, would be hard to pin down, and can keep fighting while grappled, would off himself over becoming someone else's puppet.

We had this scene already, dominating gaze worked pretty well.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Rather than vampires converting, I wonder if, maybe, Belkar might be the one that the IFCC have targeted as their desired "vessel" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html). He is one of the most powerful combatants in the world by now, and he's more vulnerable as he is or recently was heavily drunk, and Roy definitely still is.

Emptying out a vessel would certainly achieve the "death", "not long for this world", "take their last breath ever", etc. stuff and, amusingly, also sorta-satisfy the people who think he will ascend to godhood.

Or perhaps he gets transformed into some other sort of being that doesn't breathe or savor anything -- a revenant perhaps? Or has his personality transferred into a living construct?

All I know is that the Oracle has proven himself to be a master of weasel-wording. And the only form of the prophecy he delivered in glowy-hovering-divine-power-backed-mode was the last iteration about "take his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year". For that to be meaningful in any way, mundane speech ("not long for this world", "savor next birthday cake", etc.) must then be secondary.

[KorvinStarmast]

Rather than vampires converting, I wonder if, maybe, Belkar might be the one that the IFCC have targeted as their desired "vessel" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html). He is one of the most powerful combatants in the world by now, and he's more vulnerable as he is or recently was heavily drunk, and Roy definitely still is.

Belkar knows who Sabine is. Mr Scruffy would likely alert him since Mr Scruffy also knows who she is.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Belkar knows who Sabine is. Mr Scruffy would likely alert him since Mr Scruffy also knows who she is.

You don't think a succubus could neutralize a cat and then dominate someone with a terrible Will save?

I was spitballing anyways. I think their "vessel" is probably someone else.

[Rrmcklin]

Rather than vampires converting, I wonder if, maybe, Belkar might be the one that the IFCC have targeted as their desired "vessel" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html). He is one of the most powerful combatants in the world by now, and he's more vulnerable as he is or recently was heavily drunk, and Roy definitely still is.

Emptying out a vessel would certainly achieve the "death", "not long for this world", "take their last breath ever", etc. stuff and, amusingly, also sorta-satisfy the people who think he will ascend to godhood.

Or perhaps he gets transformed into some other sort of being that doesn't breathe or savor anything -- a revenant perhaps? Or has his personality transferred into a living construct?

All I know is that the Oracle has proven himself to be a master of weasel-wording. And the only form of the prophecy he delivered in glowy-hovering-divine-power-backed-mode was the last iteration about "take his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year". For that to be meaningful in any way, mundane speech ("not long for this world", "savor next birthday cake", etc.) must then be secondary.

The Oracle weasel-words because he's a jerk who doesn't like (usually) to give straight answers. But the thing about that is it that he also hates Belkar and would be very satisfied with his death. You need to give an adequate explanation for why he would make a bunch of statements implying Belkar's death, something we know he'd look forward to, but would actually have a reason for something else.

[Peelee]

And the only form of the prophecy he delivered in glowy-hovering-divine-power-backed-mode was the last iteration about "take his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year". For that to be meaningful in any way, mundane speech ("not long for this world", "savor next birthday cake", etc.) must then be secondary.

False; the glowiy-hovering mode is meaningful in that it is the only thing allowed yp bypass the memory chaem unaltered. Mundane speech is not secondary, it is simply caught in the memory charm.

[KorvinStarmast]

You don't think a succubus could neutralize a cat and then dominate someone with a terrible Will save? Belkar took steps to boost his will save a bit with that amulet he got in gnome town. Granted, it's not immunity, but it changes the odds.

Sabine will likely underestimate Mister Scruffy. ;)

I know enough Morse code to realize that you prepared explosive rules. :smallcool:
But I had to dig hard into long term memory.

[Kelenius]

While it's true that the Oracle hates Belkar... if you assume that Belkar is not, in fact, going to die, then it makes sense why the Oracle is being dodgy with the words. He says:


"Because I have an unfortunate tendency to ramble on a bit, and if I happen to slip that, say, the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA, I don't want it to influence anything."
"Well, I'm just thinking he should savor his next birthday cake. 'Nuff said."
"At any rate, your pal isn't long for this world, so I saw no reason not to have my fun where I could."
(Making a prophecy) "Belkar will draw his last breath—ever—before the end of the year."


Since he hates Belkar, if he was going to die, why wouldn't the Oracle just say "Belkar is going to die"? Instead, he just implies it. It's just as possible that Belkar is not going to die, but the Oracle makes it sound like he is - because he hates him. Furthermore, we don't even know how accurate his non-prophecy statements are, and whether or no he's telling the truth. He gets caught by the party when he's about to take a bath, after all - this would mean that either he didn't see them coming (which questions his accuracy) or he's lying to them about it (which questions truthfulness).

[Rrmcklin]

While it's true that the Oracle hates Belkar... if you assume that Belkar is not, in fact, going to die, then it makes sense why the Oracle is being dodgy with the words. He says:


"Because I have an unfortunate tendency to ramble on a bit, and if I happen to slip that, say, the halfling shouldn't bother funding his IRA, I don't want it to influence anything."
"Well, I'm just thinking he should savor his next birthday cake. 'Nuff said."
"At any rate, your pal isn't long for this world, so I saw no reason not to have my fun where I could."
(Making a prophecy) "Belkar will draw his last breath—ever—before the end of the year."


Since he hates Belkar, if he was going to die, why wouldn't the Oracle just say "Belkar is going to die"? Instead, he just implies it. It's just as possible that Belkar is not going to die, but the Oracle makes it sound like he is - because he hates him. Furthermore, we don't even know how accurate his non-prophecy statements are, and whether or no he's telling the truth. He gets caught by the party when he's about to take a bath, after all - this would mean that either he didn't see them coming (which questions his accuracy) or he's lying to them about it (which questions truthfulness).

Except who is doing that for? Belkar doesn't know any of this, he doesn't remember any of the Oracle's snide remarks, and Roy hasn't told Belkar about this prophecy. That is not a meaningful jab at Belkar in any way.

The Oracle being able to be surprised by things doesn't not inherently imply either of those things: his power can be completely 100% accurate, that doesn't mean he's using it constantly to see literally everything. I don't know why you'd assume he would be doing that, actually.

[Kelenius]

Except who is doing that for? Belkar doesn't know any of this, he doesn't remember any of the Oracle's snide remarks, and Roy hasn't told Belkar about this prophecy. That is not a meaningful jab at Belkar in any way.

For the viewers? For Roy? Why would he say anything at all then?


The Oracle being able to be surprised by things doesn't not inherently imply either of those things: his power can be completely 100% accurate, that doesn't mean he's using it constantly to see literally everything. I don't know why you'd assume he would be doing that, actually.

Yes, exactly, it means that not everything Oracle says is accurate/true. He could be wrong, misleading or even making large chunks of it up completely.

[Rrmcklin]

For the viewers? For Roy? Why would he say anything at all then?



Yes, exactly, it means that not everything Oracle says is accurate/true. He could be wrong, misleading or even making large chunks of it up completely.

Because he's a jerk that enjoys it. But making Belkar think something that's not going to happen to annoy/terrify him makes absolutely no sense when he knows that Belkar won't remember. But if you want a meta, yes, for the viewers. How else are we going to know that Belkar is going to die in advance, as Rich wanted us to know, unless he tells us?

And, no, that's not what that means at all. Saying the Oracle is not always using his power, does not invalidate that power always being accurate. Nor does it imply he's ever lied about the things he has said.

You're grasping straws here.

[Kelenius]

Because he's a jerk that enjoys it. But making Belkar think something that's not going to happen to annoy/terrify him makes absolutely no sense when he knows that Belkar won't remember.

The same logic could be applied to the question, why is he talking about Belkar's death at all?


But if you want a meta, yes, for the viewers. How else are we going to know that Belkar is going to die in advance, as Rich wanted us to know, unless he tells us?

The Oracle actually addresses the readers directly. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)


And, no, that's not what that means at all. Saying the Oracle is not always using his power, does not invalidate that power always being accurate. Nor does it imply he's ever lied about the things he has said.

But that's the thing - the only prediction he makes when using his power is the one where he says that Belkar will draw his last breath soon. The rest of it is him talking normally, which could be accurate, could be inaccurate, and could be lies - just like him talking about his plans for a bath.

[Peelee]

For the viewers?

If its not true, then it's a pretty senseless thing to say to the viewers.


But that's the thing - the only prediction he makes when using his power is the one where he says that Belkar will draw his last breath soon. The rest of it is him talking normally, which could be accurate, could be inaccurate, and could be lies - just like him talking about his plans for a bath.
There is no indication that anything he says in normal voice is a lie or inaccurate. Do you doubt he was going to take a bath?

[Kelenius]

If its not true, then it's a pretty senseless thing to say to the viewers.

That depends on his understanding of the status of the reader of the comic and his own status of the comic character, and goes into meta territory. And from the meta perspective, he's a very unreliable oracle character that gives very vague or useless prophecies. Him predicting Belkar's death doesn't seem to have any effect on the plot. Aside from Roy mentioning it a few times (?) I don't recall anyone referencing it or being affected by it. So, if the message is only intended for the viewers, then it could still be either an actual prediction that comes true as expected, or it could be a subversion where it comes true not as expected.


There is no indication that anything he says in normal voice is a lie or inaccurate. Do you doubt he was going to take a bath?

Yes, actually, but there's more to it than that. Here's what you get if you take everything he says at the face value


He didn't know the party is going to visit him and they interrupted his bath time.
But when they arrive, he already knows that Belkar will die soon.
He later tries to convince Belkar that his prophecy has already come true.
However, right after that we see that he knew he'd be killed.
He knew in advance that Roy is going to bother him, and had a wand of Dismissal on him.
He also tells Roy that he'll lose memory after passing through the memory charm, which didn't happen, because he used Dismissal.


These are contradictory, so at least in some of them the Oracle has to be wrong or lying.

[brian 333]

He didn't know the party is going to visit him and they interrupted his bath time.

He may have relaxed in the tub and lost track of time. He didn't seem to have any clocks around. Also, he may have forseen the interruption of his bath and be as incapable as anyone else to avoid his own prophesies. Oh, right. We saw that when Belkar killed him.


But when they arrive, he already knows that Belkar will die soon.

Yup.


He later tries to convince Belkar that his prophecy has already come true.

And failed to avoid his own predictedd death, which is very obviously what he was trying to do.


However, right after that we see that he knew he'd be killed.

Yup, just as he predicted.


He knew in advance that Roy is going to bother him, and had a wand of Dismissal on him.

Yet another accurate prediction.


He also tells Roy that he'll lose memory after passing through the memory charm, which didn't happen, because he used Dismissal.

And he didn't say that as a prediction, so according to earlier logic it wasn't a prediction.

No one has said that The Oracle is omniscient, even about his own life. It may be that he assumed the memory charm would work even if he dismissed Roy and he never checked, or it may be that undead are immune to charm type magic, (which they are,) and Roy, being a spirit of a dead guy on the Material plane qualified him as undead.


These are contradictory, so at least in some of them the Oracle has to be wrong or lying.

While your interpretation of them makes them appear contradictory, they are not when taken at face value, as presented in the comic. So, the question is, when, in this comic, has the author established a pattern of subverting what he has presented as fact?

Never.

The prophecy that Belkar perma-dies is intact. And I look forward to seeing how it is accomplished.

My quatloos are on, "Death by Snarl during heroic self-sacrifice for the greater good," with a side bet that it is Durkon he directly saves.

[Peelee]

That depends on his understanding of the status of the reader of the comic and his own status of the comic character, and goes into meta territory. And from the meta perspective, he's a very unreliable oracle character
[citation needed]

Yes, actually, but there's more to it than that. Here's what you get if you take everything he says at the face value

He didn't know the party is going to visit him and they interrupted his bath time.
He may well know and chooses to take the bath anyway for a joke. It is a self-aware parody, after all, and characters do know the value of jokes. Conversely, he may just check the days when people will come without bothering to check the times. The oracle is not omniscient, he just looks into the future on certain things (such as when he will die next). For example, he knew that Ghost Roy would refuse to leave because he looked into that future, but he did not bother to think about whether banishing him would still trigger the memory charm. Any claims that the Oracle must know things are predicated on him being omniscient, or on him making no mistakes, both of which are poor and unfounded assumptions.

But when they arrive, he already knows that Belkar will die soon.
He checks on people who come, as evidenced by the jokes about their credit score, as well as him being gone when Xykon arrives and him knowing the ABD is coming. He possibly checks on how dangerous they are to him, which would trigger him being gone when Xykon arrives, as well as his resentment against Belkar.

He later tries to convince Belkar that his prophecy has already come true.
Which is what gets Belkar to stab him, fulfilling the prophecy. The Oracle openly admits he knew it would not work, and the city he set up shows he knew exactly what would happen.

However, right after that we see that he knew he'd be killed.
See above. The Oracle acting in a way that fulfills the prophecy is not a mark against the prophecy.

He knew in advance that Roy is going to bother him, and had a wand of Dismissal on him.
He also tells Roy that he'll lose memory after passing through the memory charm, which didn't happen, because he used Dismissal.
The Oracle is not omniscient nor infallible. Stop assuming he is and you will have far fewer objections.


These are contradictory, so at least in some of them the Oracle has to be wrong or lying.
As demonstrated, none are contradictory, none show the Oracle to be lying when foretelling the future (the only one which can be argued for lying would be the excuses to Belkar, which again are explicitly what causes Belkar to kill him, and thus fulfills the prophecy). Also, the Oracle can absolutely be wrong, just not in his prophecies. Given that he has said multiple times in multiple ways that Belkar will bite it, in addition to an "on-the-record" prophecy that Belkar will bite it, theorizing that Belkar will not in fact bite it because the Oracle doesn't know what he's talking about seems.... odd, to say the least.

[Rrmcklin]

The Oracle isn't infallible and the Oracle's powers are never wrong are only contradictory if you are assuming that he uses his powers, constantly, to foresee literally everything that is going to happen. As we have no indication that he does that, it's not a contradiction.

It also seems common to equate the Oracle's helpfulness with his accuracy, when those are very distinct things. The Oracle is very obviously intentionally unhelpful, but there's every indication that he sees things exactly as they happen when he looks - that doesn't mean he has to tell the characters (and by extension, us, the audience) what will happen because it would suck for the story.

Also, going back specifically to the prophecy of who the Belkar would kill (or, in his words, whose death he would be responsible for) I am still bewildered that a number of people didn't understand what was going on there, even when it was all but spelled out - the Oracle knew that Belkar would kill him, futilely tried to avoid it anyway, and set up things so that Belkar would get some comeuppance for it and he could be revived. It was perfectly clear.

That Belkar made the prophecy come true himself isn't somehow a strike against the Oracle being accurate because all of the prophecies come true due to the actions of the people asking. And, for Belkar specifically, when he's asking if he's going to kill someone, he kind of has to actively do it for it come true. This is very straightforward.

[Kelenius]

He may have relaxed in the tub and lost track of time. He didn't seem to have any clocks around. Also, he may have forseen the interruption of his bath and be as incapable as anyone else to avoid his own prophesies. Oh, right. We saw that when Belkar killed him.

He was about to take a bath. They didn't walk in on him bathing.


-snip-
No one has said that The Oracle is omniscient, even about his own life. It may be that he assumed the memory charm would work even if he dismissed Roy and he never checked, or it may be that undead are immune to charm type magic, (which they are,) and Roy, being a spirit of a dead guy on the Material plane qualified him as undead.


He may well know and chooses to take the bath anyway for a joke. -snip- Any claims that the Oracle must know things are predicated on him being omniscient, or on him making no mistakes, both of which are poor and unfounded assumptions.

I'm not saying that people are assuming that he's omniscient; I am saying that not everything he says is accurate, and thus his predictions of Belkar's death also might be.


While your interpretation of them makes them appear contradictory, they are not when taken at face value, as presented in the comic.

I said that they are contradictory if you take them at the face value. Which means that they are to not be taken at the face value. Just like his predictions of Belkar's death could be.


So, the question is, when, in this comic, has the author established a pattern of subverting what he has presented as fact?

[citation needed]

Every other prediction the Oracle has made? None of them received straightforward, useful answers. There's always some twist. Durkon's is probably the most notable: he was told he'd return "posthumously", which, if you don't expect a tricky answer, would mean "you will die and your body will be sent there", not "you will be turned into a vampire and the vampire will get back".



In short; it's possible that this prediction will be different, and it will happen in the way the Oracle is implying. But it's also possible that the Oracle is foreseeing a different event, and twists his prophecies to make it seem like Belkar is going to die, because he hates Belkar. And notably, he avoids giving a straight answer about it. This is the only point I am making.

[Fyraltari]

Haley, Roy (the second and third time around), Eugene and Mama Dragon received the most useful answer possible to the question they asked. And debatably so did V and Belkar.

Durkon was the only one who received a ‘twisty’ prophecy.

Meanwhile ain’t nobody proposed a way for Belkar to fulfill the prophecies without dying even in a ‘twisty’ way.

[RatElemental]

Meanwhile ain’t nobody proposed a way for Belkar to fulfill the prophecies without dying even in a ‘twisty’ way.

He gets hit by flesh to stone and left as a statue? Technically petrified creatures are still alive under 3.5 rules.

[Emanick]

He gets hit by flesh to stone and left as a statue? Technically petrified creatures are still alive under 3.5 rules.

As long as it happens on another plane, that works.

[Dion]

Honest answer: I don’t know.

But if I were going to bet, I’d join the people who have suggested he’ll die much like Kraagor did: He’ll sacrifice himself to save the world.

[KorvinStarmast]

Honest answer: I don’t know.

But if I were going to bet, I’d join the people who have suggested he’ll die much like Kraagor did: He’ll sacrifice himself to save the world. And him doing that will be linked to Durkon's sacrifice in Book 5. Belkar's been fighting that but it gets to him over time.
1. the dialogue with Roy in 880 and 881,
2. he didn't blame me (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1098.html)
2. The outrage at his feelings changing as he goes to spike Durkula, how dare you make me think about things, durkon!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html) and "how could you not think about how your selflessness would affect me?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)

And here's the fun part. Belkar saves the world through that sacrifice, and over time his name gets to be associated as the one with the legends of how the world was saved.

Myths and legends can be based on half truths, or partial narratives, yes? :smallcool:

The narrative becomes, in universe, not that the Order of the Stick saved the world but the stories are told of how Bellar Bitterleaf and his band of heroes went to the North Pole and fought horrific evil and monsters and saved the world.

And there sits Roy Greenhild, grinding his teeth but at least Eugene gets into Celestia. Also, Roy's idea of "keeping Belkar pointed at the bad guys" pays off in a way that even he did not expect.


Haley and Elan live happily ever after.

V goes off to try and make restitution for Familicide ...

And Durkon goes home.

[Zyvlyn]

Here's my theory:

We are going to find out that containing the rifts requires a sacrifice of some sort. Soon was supposed to be the one to sacrifice himself, but he backed out at the last second, forcing Kraagor to be the one to sacrifice himself instead.

This is why Girard says "It should have been you who died in that rift you cowardly son of a bitch."

Belkar will complete his character arc by throwing himself into the rift to allow it to be closed, pushing the first character to choose to make the sacrifice (probably Roy, but I could see Durkon or even V doing it) out of the way.

[Peelee]

I'm not saying that people are assuming that he's omniscient; I am saying that not everything he says is accurate, and thus his predictions of Belkar's death also might be.

What is the point of an Oracle if the oracle's predictions are inaccurate?

Also, what prediction has the Oracle made so far which has been inaccurate? Not Roy with the memory charm; he said that passing through the memory charm would wipe his memory (a true statement), and he predicted that Roy would not leave on his own volition (an accurate prediction), but failed to realize that the method he chose would bypass the memory charm (not an inaccurate prediction at all, since he didn't predict whether or not Roy would remember, he just made a mistake choosing the method to ditch Roy).

[Kelenius]

What is the point of an Oracle if the oracle's predictions are inaccurate?

Also, what prediction has the Oracle made so far which has been inaccurate? Not Roy with the memory charm; he said that passing through the memory charm would wipe his memory (a true statement), and he predicted that Roy would not leave on his own volition (an accurate prediction), but failed to realize that the method he chose would bypass the memory charm (not an inaccurate prediction at all, since he didn't predict whether or not Roy would remember, he just made a mistake choosing the method to ditch Roy).

Perhaps "inaccurate" is not the right word. "Misleading"? The point is, he never says directly that Belkar is going to die. He implies it. And he has a tendency to phrase his prophecies in such a way that they are technically correct but imply something else or are just useless. Which leads me to believe that it is possible that he is seeing something other than death for Belkar, but makes it sound like he's going to die because he hates him.

[Dion]

Which leads me to believe that it is possible that he is seeing something other than death for Belkar, but makes it sound like he's going to die because he hates him.

True. Belkar might polymorph into a merman with gills and not lungs, and spend the rest of his life swimming around on the snarl planet. And the snarl planet might not have a sun, so there are no years, so he won’t have birthdays.

Or, Belkar might die.

[woweedd]

What is the point of an Oracle if the oracle's predictions are inaccurate?

Also, what prediction has the Oracle made so far which has been inaccurate? Not Roy with the memory charm; he said that passing through the memory charm would wipe his memory (a true statement), and he predicted that Roy would not leave on his own volition (an accurate prediction), but failed to realize that the method he chose would bypass the memory charm (not an inaccurate prediction at all, since he didn't predict whether or not Roy would remember, he just made a mistake choosing the method to ditch Roy).
Actually...Was that a mistake? I tend to headcanon that The Oracle KNEW Roy would remember, and did so intentionally: If Roy knows Belkar killed The Oracle, something which he seems to view as the last straw, such that he, like Haley, probably would have finally kicked Belkar to the curb, had he not been told that fate was gonna take care of this one...He might end up being just the slightest bit more cavalier with Belkar's life, in a way that may help in fulfilling that prophecy. Plus, The Order, through Roy, knowing that Belkar stabbed The Oracle, is the reason they haven't visited him since, which is an unambiguous win in his book. But, basically, I think the Oracle is pseudo-omniscient. What I mean by that is, he can view what will happen in the future...But he has to consciously focus on it. Hence how he gets interrupted: He wasn't bothering to check ahead. Plus, even assuming the prophecy doesn't end in his death, I don't see any way the prophecy could be true and not screw Belkar over.

[Peelee]

Actually...Was that a mistake?

I choose to present it as a mistake, almost entirely because if I can make my argument work under the worst case scenario, then it continues to work under better conditions regardless and I dk t have to worry about changing anything or coming up with other explanations for worse conditions.

[woweedd]

I choose to present it as a mistake, almost entirely because if I can make my argument work under the worst case scenario, then it continues to work under better conditions regardless and I dk t have to worry about changing anything or coming up with other explanations for worse conditions.
True enough.

[hroþila]

Perhaps "inaccurate" is not the right word. "Misleading"? The point is, he never says directly that Belkar is going to die. He implies it. And he has a tendency to phrase his prophecies in such a way that they are technically correct but imply something else or are just useless. Which leads me to believe that it is possible that he is seeing something other than death for Belkar, but makes it sound like he's going to die because he hates him.
In principle, I agree with much of this. It would be perfectly in-character for the Oracle to be vague and for one of his prophecies to come true in a non-obvious way. And theoretically speaking, such a prophecy being subverted in an interesting way might be a cool plot twist.
In practice, there's not much room for a resolution that fits the Oracle's prophecies without resulting in Belkar being dead (or as good as dead for all intents and purposes, even if technically alive somehow).

It's not clear why the Oracle would be so misleading just to screw with Belkar - Belkar doesn't remember, and the Oracle also tells Roy when Belkar isn't around. Unless we posit that he expected Roy to tell Belkar later, but then that would mean the Oracle knew that Roy would bypass the memory charm, so you can't use that incident as a sign of the Oracle being fallible.

The only benefit I could see from lying about Belkar's imminent death is that this knowledge has been an incentive for Roy to not deal with Belkar. He knows he'll die soon, so he's decided it's not his problem, at least the way things are right now. If Belkar proves to play a key role in saving the world, this would provide a good reason for the Oracle to imply Belkar was dying. But honestly, this strikes me as much less likely than the straight reading of the prophecy, so I just assume that the Oracle was vague because that's what he does, and because The Giant wanted people to speculate. Same way Belkar's prophecy and Roy's death were written the way they were to allow people to connect the two.

(Also, the above reasoning does not need Belkar to live, as it explains why the Oracle would bother telling Roy in the first place)

[CriticalFailure]

Here's my theory:

We are going to find out that containing the rifts requires a sacrifice of some sort. Soon was supposed to be the one to sacrifice himself, but he backed out at the last second, forcing Kraagor to be the one to sacrifice himself instead.

This is why Girard says "It should have been you who died in that rift you cowardly son of a bitch."

Belkar will complete his character arc by throwing himself into the rift to allow it to be closed, pushing the first character to choose to make the sacrifice (probably Roy, but I could see Durkon or even V doing it) out of the way.

I wonder if they went to seal the rift they found the world in the rift and Kraagor wanted to explore, then when the Snarl made it's presence known Soon freaked and demanded it be closed without waiting for him to return or something. Or he refused to explore the rift and Kraagor went in alone and that's why they weren't able to fight it back and had to close it with Kraagor inside.

[brian 333]

My guess is that Kraggor intercepted an attack by The Snarl that was intended for someone else, (Liran?) even though it was Soon's j6b to protect her while the rift was being sealed. Thus Girard's posthumous, "It should have been you," statement.

[Rrmcklin]

What is the point of an Oracle if the oracle's predictions are inaccurate?

Also, what prediction has the Oracle made so far which has been inaccurate? Not Roy with the memory charm; he said that passing through the memory charm would wipe his memory (a true statement), and he predicted that Roy would not leave on his own volition (an accurate prediction), but failed to realize that the method he chose would bypass the memory charm (not an inaccurate prediction at all, since he didn't predict whether or not Roy would remember, he just made a mistake choosing the method to ditch Roy).

Depending on the story, there very much could be a point. If this was a "fighting fate" story to show the future isn't set in stone or anything having the Oracle being usually right, only to be wrong about Belkar because Belkar/The Order actively fight against what he has said would be pretty standard.

But, there's no indication that this is that kind of story. There has been no indication that Rich wants us to think the Oracle's powers are inaccurate in any regard, and the Order aren't taking any steps to try and avoid Belkar's impending death.

Though it probably goes without saying, the only reason people are so desperate they keep repeating the same "twists" to the prophecy that has been said a million times over is just because they like Belkar and don't want him to do. They've just come to a conclusion first (as we all do sometimes) and are trying to twist things to match it instead of the other way around.

[Peelee]

Depending on the story, there very much could be a point. If this was a "fighting fate" story to show the future isn't set in stone or anything having the Oracle being usually right, only to be wrong about Belkar because Belkar/The Order actively fight against what he has said would be pretty standard.

But, there's no indication that this is that kind of story.

If I was a smarter man, I would have put words to that effect in.:smallredface:

Appreciate it!

[denthor]

I still say food poisoning. Anti climactic and funny considering nothing even plot relevant characters have tried and failed. But some assist baker takes him out is funny to me.

[Emanick]

I still say food poisoning. Anti climactic and funny considering nothing even plot relevant characters have tried and failed. But some assist baker takes him out is funny to me.

How's Vaarsuvius's ex-spouse going to get up to the North Pole? :smallconfused:

[Squire Doodad]

How's Vaarsuvius's ex-spouse going to get up to the North Pole? :smallconfused:

Epic teleport from one of the errant soul splices

[Fish]

I think I know how Belkar will die.

He’s going to die at the hands of Kilkil the kobold.

Think about it: Belkar’s current character journey is toward less random murder and chaos, and toward a more responsible and emotionally vested role. He might not try to murder Kilkil because it’s funny, or because it’s his “thing,” or because he likes a running gag. Kilkil is (supposedly) just a bureaucrat, and (in theory) helpless. (I doubt that myself; Tarquin invited him on a dungeon crawl, so he’s probably not a total duffer.)

But if Belkar refuses to do the job, Kilkil might not have such qualms about killing him.

Also, KilKil is a winged kobold, possibly with draconic blood. If he’s got dragon breath, he might be able to pull it off. Plus ... the name. Also, the Oracle is also a kobold who worships the Dragon Queen. There’s a possible connection there.

[D.One]

A Flumph will fall over Belkar and he'll be crushed to death...

[Squire Doodad]

A Flumph will fall over Belkar and he'll be crushed to death...

Flumph: "Huh, I can really see what they get out of this!"

[Particle_Man]

3.5 Belkar will be killed by 5th edition Belkar. It has been established that only Belkar can kill Belkar. :smallbiggrin:

[Vessyra]

I'd always assumed it was going to be the Snarl since I first saw the prophecy, due to the whole no-resurrection property of it's soul-destruction. Plus, there's also the parallels with the Order of the Scribble's own barbarian dying, and the narrative of Belkar dying right at the end. I am hoping for subverted expectations; after all, Durkon's mission is basically to break the cycle, so doing a repeat of the Scribble would make more sense; however, I don't see Belkar getting killed by anything other than the Snarl.

[Dr.Zero]

I'd always assumed it was going to be the Snarl since I first saw the prophecy, due to the whole no-resurrection property of it's soul-destruction. Plus, there's also the parallels with the Order of the Scribble's own barbarian dying, and the narrative of Belkar dying right at the end. I am hoping for subverted expectations; after all, Durkon's mission is basically to break the cycle, so doing a repeat of the Scribble would make more sense; however, I don't see Belkar getting killed by anything other than the Snarl.

That makes a lot of sense, but I don't agree because this theory leaves out a point: the final, tearjerking sentence from B, that I'm sure (as I stated times and again) will be on the line of: "Why it... doesn't hurt... anymore? X_X" (referred to the clasp) showing us that B has moved from CE to a more CN field.
I mean, I see no other plot reason to introduce the whole pain issue but to show that at some point B won't feel that pain anymore.

Moreover, but I'm not sure, hasn't the author said that we will see B in the afterlife? I've kinda of a memory about this, but it might be completely wrong, though.

[Peelee]

Moreover, but I'm not sure, hasn't the author said that we will see B in the afterlife? I've kinda of a memory about this, but it might be completely wrong, though.

No. And even if Belkar succeeds at becoming non-Evil, he would go to lower the CN afterlife, the Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, which is still a pretty rotten fate.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I agree that the Snarl is the conservatively most likely bet, but I'm officially putting my money on whichever faction these new weirdly colored voices belong to. They are going to kill Belkar.

[Squire Doodad]

I agree that the Snarl is the conservatively most likely bet, but I'm officially putting my money on whichever faction these new weirdly colored voices belong to. They are going to kill Belkar.

Would you like to bet 10 quatloos, sir?

[RatElemental]

I mean, I see no other plot reason to introduce the whole pain issue but to show that at some point B won't feel that pain anymore.

We already got one, it woke Belkar up in the fight against the fHPoH.

[Dr.Zero]

We already got one, it woke Belkar up in the fight against the fHPoH.

Yes, that might be a possibility.

Too circumstantial, though, I'd say. A scratch from the cat, if pain was all that was needed for the plot, might have worked too. No reason to introduce that incredibly specific "pain because you're Evil". Moreover, just by chance, when B's character development was moving fast forward like in this arc.

So I keep my bet on the tearjerker final line, for now. (I'm a great believer in the law of conservation of details, as you might have guessed :smallbiggrin:)


No. And even if Belkar succeeds at becoming non-Evil, he would go to lower the CN afterlife, the Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, which is still a pretty rotten fate.

Well, I'm not surprised my memory failed me here.

About B's afterlife, why not Arborea or Ysgard? After all, if he dies saving all the mortal in existence, that incredibly outnumbers the people he has killed or tortured. And you know, trying matters, he is trying to move away from evil, and...

Bah, I find it hard to convince myself, anyway I hope this had a stronger impact on you.

[Peelee]

trying matters

We know that trying matters for exactly one of the seventeen afterlives. The other sixteen? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I'm inclined to believe it does for the Good ones, but they're also exclusionary; I highly doubt the Abyss or the Nine Hells would be so discriminating. And who's to say for the Neutral or in-between planes?

[hroþila]

I would like to add that if trying matters, then Belkar has been actively trying to resist change because it challenged his self-image as a streetwise, devil-may-care psychopath. That might change now that he's done some hardcore introspection, but up to this point he's been trying to not be too non-Evil.

[Rrmcklin]

Also Good, and perhaps even Neutral, has higher standards than Evil. You can be "good" your whole life but if you decide to commit one rape or murder just for funzies I doubt any of the Good afterlives are letting you in. Meanwhile, I very much doubt that any of the Evil ones are going to go "Hmm, this guy spent his entire life being a hedonistic psychopath, but he did kind of chill out at the end and help save the world (to save himself) so he doesn't fit in here."

[KorvinStarmast]

Also Good, and perhaps even Neutral, has higher standards than evil. You can be "good" your whole life but if you decide to commit one rape or murder just for funzies I doubt any of the Good afterlives are letting you in. Meanwhile, I very much doubt they Evil ones are going "Hmm, this guy spent his entire life being a hedonistic psychopath, but he did kind of chill out at the end and help save the world (to save himself) so he doesn't fit in here." There is that; Good seems to do a better job of keeping members out of its club.

[Dr.Zero]

Also Good, and perhaps even Neutral, has higher standards than Evil. You can be "good" your whole life but if you decide to commit one rape or murder just for funzies I doubt any of the Good afterlives are letting you in. Meanwhile, I very much doubt that any of the Evil ones are going to go "Hmm, this guy spent his entire life being a hedonistic psychopath, but he did kind of chill out at the end and help save the world (to save himself) so he doesn't fit in here."

It depends, really.
Like, you've been Good your whole life, then you go mad and kill innocent people get caught in your roaring rampage of revenge, mostly you'll be considered Evil, uninterested to living beings and so on.

You've been a jerkass your whole life, but then you spend the last years being charitable, then maybe...

Or you repent at the last moment and then... (real life myth could be shown, if not for forum rules).

On the other hand, you can repent and punish yourself with death penalty for your sin, but still... (real life myth, related to the one before, could be shown, if not for forum rules).

It seems to be more related to PR than to something that can easily been expressed via a rule or a math formula.

Everytingh else notwithstanding, I don't know why people think Evil should be less nitpicking than Good, in a D&D setting.
That is not RL religion, where Hell is the trash bin of Heaven: in D&D all the alignments have the same importance and, in OOTS, the same final result: merging with the plane/being used as battery by some God.

Now, starting with the fact that every God like souls, since they are energy/food, the only reason to kick some soul away is that eating/merging a soul of a different alignment is going to damage the God/Plane.

For the Good plane, merging with something not purely Good might be damaging.
But symmetrically that stands true even for an Evil plane merging with something not purely Evil.

Edit: otoh, Hel seems to have no problem in using souls which should belong to different planes. Which both proves the point about being interested in souls for power and apparently disproves the point about souls of a different alignment damaging the God/plane. So, meh.

[RatElemental]

I dunno, Hel doesn't seem to be doing too good. Mentally or 'physically.'

[Rrmcklin]

It depends, really.
Like, you've been Good your whole life, then you go mad and kill innocent people get caught in your roaring rampage of revenge, mostly you'll be considered Evil, uninterested to living beings and so on.

You've been a jerkass your whole life, but then you spend the last years being charitable, then maybe...

Or you repent at the last moment and then... (real life myth could be shown, if not for forum rules).

On the other hand, you can repent and punish yourself with death penalty for your sin, but still... (real life myth, related to the one before, could be shown, if not for forum rules).

It seems to be more related to PR than to something that can easily been expressed via a rule or a math formula.

Everytingh else notwithstanding, I don't know why people think Evil should be less nitpicking than Good, in a D&D setting.
That is not RL religion, where Hell is the trash bin of Heaven: in D&D all the alignments have the same importance and, in OOTS, the same final result: merging with the plane/being used as battery by some God.

Now, starting with the fact that every God like souls, since they are energy/food, the only reason to kick some soul away is that eating/merging a soul of a different alignment is going to damage the God/Plane.

For the Good plane, merging with something not purely Good might be damaging.
But symmetrically that stands true even for an Evil plane merging with something not purely Evil.

Edit: otoh, Hel seems to have no problem in using souls which should belong to different planes. Which both proves the point about being interested in souls for power and apparently disproves the point about souls of a different alignment damaging the God/plane. So, meh.

People assume that Evil is lesspicky because than Good because Good, by definition, holds itself to a higher standard than Evil. At the very least, we know that to be a fact in this setting given how Roy's interview went.

I'm not sure why you're talking as if anyone has tried to quantify things via math formula.

And you still didn't address either the points of 1) no, Belkar has not been actively trying to change and 2) saving the world is not inherently a good thing when it's primarily fueled by self-interest.

[hroþila]

saving the world is not inherently a good thing when it's primarily fueled by self-interest.
I had written a longish reply, but before I post it I'd like to ask: what do you mean exactly by "fueled by self-interest"?

[Dr.Zero]

I dunno, Hel doesn't seem to be doing too good. Mentally or 'physically.'

I think that this is more because the souls are scarce, but nonetheless you are not the first one to raise this point, it happened even in a related thread I opened about this subject. I've never read it that way, but if that too influences badly her diet is open to debate, at this point.


People assume that Evil is lesspicky because than Good because Good, by definition, holds itself to a higher standard than Evil.


I don't know if you are joking or being serious, so I'll assume something in the middle pointing out that this argument makes as much sense as saying that Evil must select only souls of short people, because everyone knows they are on the lower planes. (Or they work on lower instincts, or whatever kind of joke you might like).

Everything else is an assumption from the "Hell=trash bin of Heaven" paradigm, so Heaven being restrictive (fine) and Hell being not, because Hell must accept everything (totally to prove and which shouldn't be -necessarily- true for D&D). Again: this is not RL religion, it's D&D religion.

Of course, the confusion is understandable, because if one reads the descriptions of the afterlives, everything seems like a punishment, but the Good one, which fits well with our common RL religion assumptions.
But theoretically every single afterlife should fit its souls.
In that sense the reaction of Jirix about the happiness and the excitement of joining TDO's army in its never ending, no-cease-fire battles shown here is probably more close to the point that the "dear God, an infinite battles, that is the punishment and retribution for a life of violence!" one might get reading the description of the Acheron (LE- afterlife).



At the very least, we know that to be a fact in this setting given how Roy's interview went.


Uhm. No. We know for a fact Good is selective. Not that Evil is not.



I'm not sure why you're talking as if anyone has tried to quantify things via math formula.



And you still didn't address either the points of 1) no, Belkar has not been actively trying to change and 2) saving the world is not inherently a good thing when it's primarily fueled by self-interest.

[/quote]

I didn't know I was supposed to address any point, actually.
But ok:
1) B is trying -willingly or not, as a masquerade or not- to be better than the old B, see as a very tiny example the excuses he makes to D about the palm. Or maybe not, he is not trying. In that case HE IS ALREADY better. So, since the "trying matters" is important only when one fails to reach the standard (cfr the reason why trying matters was important for Roy), if he has reached the standard without even trying, we're fine, I'd say.

2) Huh? I don't think B has ever been show to care about his well being related to the world destruction, no more than R, Ha, E or anyone else, at least. Is there a specific page where he -specifically- is all scared about the world ending? Or where he tries to find an alternative between a hard battle against the lich and the world ending, like Hy does with the plane shift?
He has as much self interest as any other member of the gang there, and till now the only reasons that seem to move him are... well, at the start easy violence and loot, then some coercion (the curse), then just the teamwork (refusing the Loki's cleric job offer when the curse had been removed) and so on...

[Peelee]

I had written a longish reply, but before I post it I'd like to ask: what do you mean exactly by "fueled by self-interest"?

Belkar lives in the world, and thus has a vested interest in it not ending. Belkar has also, to the best of my knowledge, never actually cared about saving anyone else in the world, or saving the world for other people, or, amusingly enough given said self-interest in the world not ending, expressed any interest saving the world at all; he's more or less along for the ride.

If you jumped in your car and drove to save the Earthican President from Lrrr, ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8, then you would be trying to save him. If I was in the car because I wanted to get out of the house that day, then I wouldn't really be trying to save him by any stretch of the imagination, even if I chipped in for gas at some point during the trip.

[hroþila]

Belkar lives in the world, and thus has a vested interest in it not ending. Belkar has also, to the best of my knowledge, never actually cared about saving anyone else in the world, or saving the world for other people, or, amusingly enough given said self-interest in the world not ending, expressed any interest saving the world at all; he's more or less along for the ride.

If you jumped in your car and drove to save the Earthican President from Lrrr, ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8, then you would be trying to save him. If I was in the car because I wanted to get out of the house that day, then I wouldn't really be trying to save him by any stretch of the imagination, even if I chipped in for gas at some point during the trip.
I agree with all of this, I was asking because sometimes people suggest that Belkar's actions can't be Good because of the self-preservation factor, but it's more that he's just doing whatever the Order is doing, as you say.