Factotum Archivist Good or bad idea (And why)

[OGDojo]

Alrighty so i got it in my head one day "Hey self, Archivists are knowledge and intelligence based, Factotums are intelligence based, why not build a character with both classes and see how it ends up?" and i responded to my self "Self, that sounds awesome on paper but i'm sure its been done and i'm sure that its probably not as amazing as you think" welp here i am to try and settle this debate.

How would you build a Factotum Archivist?
Non gestalt
int stat is 18 (all others wont matter assume they are reasonable but not rediculous)
D&D 3.5 and pathfinder feats are available
wizards official fix for factotum (Font of Inspiration feat) is also available

[Zaq]

What’s the goal?

The problem is that the archivist is a T1 full caster. Every level a T1 full caster takes in a class that doesn’t advance casting makes them weaker.

If you’re intentionally trying to tone down the power level, a dip in factotum with Able Learner could give you more class skills, but in a non-gestalt setting, there isn’t much a factotum can bring to the table that an archivist can’t already do with clever use of spells.

[OGDojo]

What’s the goal?

The problem is that the archivist is a T1 full caster. Every level a T1 full caster takes in a class that doesn’t advance casting makes them weaker.

If you’re intentionally trying to tone down the power level, a dip in factotum with Able Learner could give you more class skills, but in a non-gestalt setting, there isn’t much a factotum can bring to the table that an archivist can’t already do with clever use of spells.

well my main goal is to offer up new mixes of classes that would be entertaining but not Awful, and if you dip in factotum to level 5 you actually gain alot of melee and versatility that the archivist doesnt have. im not looking for power im looking for ways to mix classes together to make an interesting character

[Rebel7284]

I mean, sure Factotum 1/Archivist+PrCs 19 is an okay build. Trapfinding can be pretty useful depending on your campaign all the way into mid-levels and adding Int to saves can save your bacon. Also if you can add Int to SPELL damage rolls, that can be pretty useful in some circumstances. Note that you only have 2 inspiration points unless you spend a lot of feats to boost that.

With all of that said, you are getting slower access to higher level spells which is a massive drawback and the minor buffs that Factotum class gives you become less and less relevant as you level when compared to not having 4th level spells, or 5th level spell when you may want them.

[Mike Miller]

Interesting is highly subjective. I must agree with the above advice that losing caster levels detracts from your capabilities. Archivist can do just about everything a factotum can do, if not everything, with spells. Combining the two just makes you less effective and imo less interesting.

Judging by your factotum signature, we have significantly differing views on what makes a character powerful.

[Silvercrys]

Yeah, as others said, almost nothing involving a significant number of Factotum levels will be as strong as just Archivist 20 (or Archivist 10/Full Casting PrC 10).

But if I was going to build such a character regardless, I'd probably want Illumian (Naenhoon) Factotum 8/Archivist 7/Sacred Exorcist 1/Archivist +1/Hit-and-Run Tactics Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Sacred Exorcist +2, with Knowledge Devotion.

We're doing a bit of team buffing with Dark Knowledge (Tactics) and Dark Knowledge (Foe), we get 1d6 Sneak Attack to get Craven for even moar damage at high level, and we're leaning on Knowledge Devotion in the mean time. We get 6th level Archivist spell casting and a small number of Arcane spells from Factotum.

For combat, you'll probably want to grab a Shortbow and run up the Greater Manyshot feat chain, grabbing Extend Spell and Persistent Spell. If you have any other feats, spend them on Font of Inspiration.

The goal is to get Cunning Surge for extra actions and get a bunch of damage riders you can apply to Greater Manyshot. Knowledge Devotion and Dark Knowledge (Tactics) should give you a large enough bonus on attack rolls to be relevant in combat. Spend as many feats on Font of Inspiration as you can because extra standard actions are wack, and they're the only really powerful thing you get out of Factotum at all versus just going Rogue 1/Archivist 4/Shadowbane Stalker 10/Archivist +5 or something. But you also need Point Blank Shot (3), Rapid Shot (6), Many Shot (9), Greater Many Shot (12), Extend Spell (1), Persistent Spell (15), and Craven (18), so to take it at all I think you need flaws.

And the biggest problem with this build is that leveling it feels absolutely awful. You're just a Factotum until level 8, where you bail on it to get super low level spells and Dark Knowledge for 7 levels before your actual trick (Greater Manyshot + Cunning Surge + Persistent Divine Power) actually comes online at level 16!

But if I really wanted to for some reason, that's how I'd build a Factotum/Archivist multiclass.

[Thurbane]

On a side note, I've always wanted to run a Beguiler/Archivist/Mystic Theurge...

[weckar]

I've never quite seen the concept of losing caster levels. Because you're not. You're just not gaining caster levels. It's an important distinction.

[Zaq]

I've never quite seen the concept of losing caster levels. Because you're not. You're just not gaining caster levels. It's an important distinction.

Opportunity cost is a real cost.

[OGDojo]

so what im understanding is that you all think factotum is useless. either cuz you havent played them or because you didnt play them right. yes ill lose some of the archivists harder hitting abilities, but a 5 level dip into factotum will increase my damage potential if anything gets in close (which theres always that one creature that goes to the healer) it also helps my survivability, and also increases my skills and skill point total. not to mention it also gives me the ability to increase my skill checks by my int modifier OH and to top ALL of that, the "You have to dedicate feats in order to gain more inspiration points or your stuck at 3" argument, do you know how many inspiration points you get each time you take Font of inspiration? 1+1 per time taken, meaning that you take it 4 times you have 10 points, take it 5 times you have 15 take it 6 times you have 21 take it 9 times you get 45, it gets pretty rediculous. hell i can barely use 14 points per encounter i couldnt imagine needing higher than that. and with a level 5 factotum you only really need to take font of inspiration 4 times to get that much. but no spell that the archivist can cast will increase damage by +4 BAB by +4, Skill checks by +4 and allow you to do it all in the same round... just saying, perhaps you should PLAY a factotum before you go calling it useless as a multiclass class :)

[HorizonWalker]

so what im understanding is that you all think factotum is useless. either cuz you havent played them or because you didnt play them right. yes ill lose some of the archivists harder hitting abilities, but a 5 level dip into factotum will increase my damage potential if anything gets in close (which theres always that one creature that goes to the healer) it also helps my survivability, and also increases my skills and skill point total. not to mention it also gives me the ability to increase my skill checks by my int modifier OH and to top ALL of that, the "You have to dedicate feats in order to gain more inspiration points or your stuck at 3" argument, do you know how many inspiration points you get each time you take Font of inspiration? 1+1 per time taken, meaning that you take it 4 times you have 10 points, take it 5 times you have 15 take it 6 times you have 21 take it 9 times you get 45, it gets pretty rediculous. hell i can barely use 14 points per encounter i couldnt imagine needing higher than that. and with a level 5 factotum you only really need to take font of inspiration 4 times to get that much. but no spell that the archivist can cast will increase damage by +4 BAB by +4, Skill checks by +4 and allow you to do it all in the same round... just saying, perhaps you should PLAY a factotum before you go calling it useless as a multiclass class :)
(Bolding mine)

Let's take a look at a lovely core Cleric spell that the Archivist gets: Divine Power. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) Divine Power grants you a Fighter's Base Attack Bonus and a +6 to your Strength score, which comes out to a +3 to-hit and to damage.

But what about skill checks? Well, I've got you covered with the spell Divine Insight (https://dndtools.net/spells/complete-adventurer--54/divine-insight--371/) from Complete Adventurer. It grants you a 5+Caster Level bonus to the next skill check you make, and lasts for hours.

I assure you, if the Archivist(for whatever reason) wants to punch someone's face through the back of their head, they're perfectly capable of doing so without spending any class levels- and therefore divine caster levels- on Factotum.

Now, none of this is to say the Factotum is useless. Far from it- the Factotum is so well-known because it's really, really useful in a lot of situations! But the Factotum is a generalist and a skillmonkey, and beyond relying on the same ability score, it doesn't synergize with Archivist levels very well.

And, well, there's also the fact that the Archivist is brokenly powerful. Archivists, like Wizards and Erudites and Artificers, are very much capable of "Anything you can do, I can do better!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO23WBji_Z0)

[Bphill561]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying the Factotum is useless but...

If you taking those 5 Factotum levels early, you are not going to be much of a spell caster. You will be so far behind on spell levels, caster level, and spell penetration that you will probably have to stick to buff spells. Also comparing Factotum abilities to Time Stop, Genesis, Gate, etc., yeah Factotum will lose. Even before that, if you only get to level 8-10 in your campaign you are pretty much missing out on all of the archivist's spell casting (and other abilities).

If you are dumping all those feats into Font of Inspiration, you will also not have many feats for metamagic, item creation, or Prestige class entry (not that you need to PrC the archivist). Your build just becomes less and less about spell casting, which is fine but not the main focus of an archivist (or it's power base). Also it feels like the archivist is the add on, not the factotum with half your feats already dedicated to factotum.


but no spell that the archivist can cast will increase damage by +4 BAB by +4, Skill checks by +4 and allow you to do it all in the same round... just saying, perhaps you should PLAY a factotum before you go calling it useless as a multiclass class :)

Don't be mistaken, the archivist does not cast just one spell. The Archivist casts every spell! A focused archivist also has the feats/room to walk through Sacred Exorcist and pick up Divine Metamagic to have those spells up all the time. Hell with 4 feats that you would burn on Font of Inspiration, you could instead go Spell dancer and Persistent spell everything you cast that is not evocation or necromancy (or if you want to dip, Fighter Pugilist Variant for two of the necessary feats in one level).

Regardless, you are missing out on a good portion of the archivists spell casting if you drop out 5 levels for Factotum. It does not become a matter of Factotum being a bad multiclass option so much as the archivist is not getting sufficient resources from the build to do its thing. You could even argue a Wizard/Archivist/Mystic theurge mutliclass (which has good synergy) is diluted in power/feasibility compared to a straight caster with faster spell progression and better PrC options (and that is not even taking away feats from the main spellcaster theme). In a game that will end in mid levels, you are better of continuing your Factotum arch. If you are starting at 20 and going epic it becomes a better option, but really only because you will get the rest of your archivist spell casting ability moving forward. It would be fine in a game where the other players/DM don't like high level spells thrown around or too much optimization. BUT... you kind of did your self a disservice by adding the Optimization tag to your post if that is the case.

If you are talking flavor/build/optimization wise, it seems Chameleon would be a much better choice as it does not disrupt the flow of either classes access to it's abilities. Likewise Ur-Priest or Divine Crusader would be better picks despite the lack of Int synergy (although to be fair, the archivist is not straight Int either making every choice have a secondary stat requirement).

There is no Factotum hate here in my post or anyone else's, but disrupting caster progression by 5 levels really puts the caster in a slump.

[Zaq]

There was a tone shift in there somewhere...

Factotum gets tricks. But what it gets is easily replicated by spells without much effort. 5 character levels is a huge cost, and you really get diminishing returns on your investment.

The problem isn’t necessarily that “factotum sucks” per se—the problem is that casters don’t like MCing with noncasters more than is necessary. A dip here and there is okay if you’re not in a balls-to-the-wall maximum power game, but five levels isn’t a dip. For perspective, that’s like maxing out in a half-casting PrC like mindbender or entropomancer or something, only with mostly low-level abilities to show for it, and you pay the cost up front.

No one’s saying that you can’t possibly enjoy such a character. We’re just saying that the mix you’re proposing isn’t really optimal even if your goal isn’t simply being as strong as possible. Doesn’t mean it’s something that you’re wrong for playing. Hell, I bring friggin’ truenamers to the table. Sometimes even truenamers with a lost level of progression here and there. You don’t always have to be at max efficiency. But it does matter that you be aware of what you’re giving up when you make a choice like that.

If you want to feel like a divine caster with factotum skills, I’d recommend a few other options (not all at once):

You can do basic skill point optimization on a pure archivist. Human, Nymph’s Kiss, maybe Able Learner, etc. You already have high INT so you’re halfway there.
You can send your archivist into high-skill-point PrCs. Divine prankster, perhaps, if you can swing the prereqs. That’s just a random example.
Divine bard has a broader skill list and gets 6+INT out of the box, though it has fewer INT-based class features.
Cloistered cleric with the right domains and/or the right skill-list-broadening feats can also do a good job.
For a way different approach if you want to mostly be a factotum with a bit of divine casting, you might try to sneak into a fast-progression class like ur-priest or divine crusader.


The thing to remember about low-level factotum abilities is that they’re almost all numbers. Add INT to this or to that, but that’s just a number. Numbers can come from anywhere, and one of the easiest places to get numbers from is spells. But spells don’t HAVE to be spent on those numbers, so you can have utility spells on days when you don’t need those other bonuses. And you don’t have to spend an excessive number of feats on FoI. Feats are precious.

Point is, you don’t have to feel like you’re under attack because no one is attacking you. I assure you that many if not most of us are not speaking from ignorance on the factotum. You’re still allowed to play one and still allowed to have fun with it, but our assessment is the way it is for a reason.

[Esprit15]

As someone who loves Factotums and Archivists, they just don’t synergize as well as you think. Archivist’s biggest boon is its massive pool of potential spells, more than any other divine casting class, and that Dark Knowledge is a solid party buff for not using spell slots. Factotum’s main thing is being able to act as anybody at a moment’s notice, but not for long. These two things don’t really mesh super well, especially with the approach most people have on the boards here.

That said, I don’t like to toss out any idea just from theory-craft, and comparing to a T1 caster is silly. Probably your best salvage for this idea is primary Factotum, with a couple levels of archivist specifically for rapid access to some of the tastier Paladin and Ranger spells, and being able to scribe obscure prestige class spells. You obviously won’t be a better Archivist than an Archivist, but that was never to goal. Factotums don’t take Archivist for high level spells (save that for the full caster builds), they take it for things like like Hunter’s Mercy, Mass Snake’s Swiftness, and Find the Gap, which at most need only 5 levels. Take those levels later in your career as a Factotum, and you aren’t hurting nearly as much as if you’re an Archivist who decides to suddenly become a Factotum.

[Thurbane]

so what im understanding is that you all think factotum is useless. either cuz you havent played them or because you didnt play them right.

There was a tone shift in there somewhere...

Indeed. :smalleek:

Factotum is a perfectly viable class. In fact, it's arguably the best skillmonkey class there is.

However, taking 5 levels in a class, then switching to another class that you can't "theurge" with, and doesn't really have that much synergy (aside from sharing a primary ability score), is far from ideal.

Don't get me wrong - there's nothing wring with doing this. But from an optimization viewpoint (and I did get the feeling OP was looking for feedback on how viable the build was), it's just not that great.

Heck, you can play a Fighter 5/Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Rogue 5 if you really want to, and there's nothing inherently wring with that, but it's not going to stand up as that great against other builds.

[Silvercrys]

There is ~some synergy if you look at Archivist's Dark Knowledge as a team buff like Bardic Music, and at Factotum as a way to boost your knowledge checks 1/day/creature type.

Or the reverse, the build I presented was an attempt to make a Factotum Manyshot Archer that uses Archivist's Dark Knowledge (Foe) as a way to get more damage per attack.

It's clearly less powerful than straight Archivist, and probably not ~really worth it over Factotum 8/Swift Hunter build 12 or something, but the flavor of using monster knowledge to help you and your allies kill stuff is pretty interesting at least.

[Esprit15]

There is ~some synergy if you look at Archivist's Dark Knowledge as a team buff like Bardic Music, and at Factotum as a way to boost your knowledge checks 1/day/creature type.

Or the reverse, the build I presented was an attempt to make a Factotum Manyshot Archer that uses Archivist's Dark Knowledge (Foe) as a way to get more damage per attack.

It's clearly less powerful than straight Archivist, and probably not ~really worth it over Factotum 8/Swift Hunter build 12 or something, but the flavor of using monster knowledge to help you and your allies kill stuff is pretty interesting at least.

It also probably has more damage potential if your party all makes use of it together, compared to just trying to be independent badasses. Outside of spells (which almost anyone can use), Bards and Archivists have some of the best party support class abilities, with both being roughly equal out of the box (Archivist gets higher numbers at lower levels, but Bard being more versatile), and Bard pulling way ahead as soon as optimization is brought into play due to splat support with things like Dragonfire Inspiration.

[Rebel7284]

The thing with Factotum with an archivist dip for niche spells is that a Chameleon dip does it better for the most part.
I am convinced that Factotum 1/Archivist 19 is one of the best builds that leverages the strength of both classes, but of course do whatever feels good for you.

[Esprit15]

The thing with Factotum with an archivist dip for niche spells is that a Chameleon dip does it better for the most part.
I am convinced that Factotum 1/Archivist 19 is one of the best builds that leverages the strength of both classes, but of course do whatever feels good for you.

I never said it was the most optimal, just that an Archivist dip was better than a Factotum dip. Archivist also doesn’t eat up your racial option.

[Silvercrys]

Depends on what kind of character you want to play.

The most mechanically effective character, as well as the most effective spellcaster, is clearly Archivist 20 while pretending to be a Factotum, with spells. Factotum 1/Archivist 19 is close behind it, because it's still a better caster than a Sorcerer or Favored Soul.

But if you're married to getting Cunning Surge (it's really the only reason to take a bunch of levels of Factotum), Factotum 8/Archivist 8/Sneak Attack class 1/Archivist or Divine Casting PrC +3 is a fine build that should be effective enough at most tables regardless of the order you take those classes in (though I can't really recommend fully weaving them together, something like Factotum 1/Archivist 1/Sneak Attack Class 1 then taking one or the other for the next seven levels is probably better than taking one level of each at every other level).

Like, Archivist 8/PrCs+3 casting is pretty comparable to what you get by going Chameleon, and that's a pretty popular Factotum prestige class.

[OGDojo]

Depends on what kind of character you want to play.

The most mechanically effective character, as well as the most effective spellcaster, is clearly Archivist 20 while pretending to be a Factotum, with spells. Factotum 1/Archivist 19 is close behind it, because it's still a better caster than a Sorcerer or Favored Soul.

But if you're married to getting Cunning Surge (it's really the only reason to take a bunch of levels of Factotum), Factotum 8/Archivist 8/Sneak Attack class 1/Archivist or Divine Casting PrC +3 is a fine build that should be effective enough at most tables regardless of the order you take those classes in (though I can't really recommend fully weaving them together, something like Factotum 1/Archivist 1/Sneak Attack Class 1 then taking one or the other for the next seven levels is probably better than taking one level of each at every other level).

Like, Archivist 8/PrCs+3 casting is pretty comparable to what you get by going Chameleon, and that's a pretty popular Factotum prestige class.

I actually played around with the idea of a Mountebank/chameleon since it basically allows you to play different characters each day :P but thats for a different thread

[Endarire]

Casting before about character level 6 (Wizard6, Archivist6, etc.) doesn't have much stamina. No, not even with Focused Specialists. You can do a lot of things, but less often than you can use skills. Factotum is the skills class that minors in Wizard casting. Archivist and Factotum are each INT-based, but generally don't overlap well: You need to choose to focus on skills or spells in your build.

[Zaq]

Factotum is the skills class that minors in Wizard casting.

Beguiler says hi.

[OGDojo]

Beguiler says hi.

i looked into beguiler, it seems fun and interesting and i may play one eventually. but beguiler has the same arcane drawbacks as the archivist does divine, she has to LEARN her spells after character creation by studying, meaning if she wants to take some of the bard spells she needs to find a book and read into it, same with archivist, if he wants a cool paladin spell he saw his buddy use once, he has to go find the book or ancient script to do so... i also like archivists cuz they provide a very conveinient plot device, since most of them are knowledge hungry due to their class abilities you can usually have an NPC be like "Oh yeah i heard ancient knowledge of an old mechanical gnomish device lay inside the ruins 28 days away to the north." and the archivist will generally be like "HELLS YEAH! Knowledge that was lost to time? finally something worthy of adventuring for!" you could also have him take a flaw called "Addict" and have his addiction be "Knowledge" so any time he hears about something that he doesn't already know hes already packing his things to go find it.

Its quite a fun character to play

[Esprit15]

Um, last I recall, Beguiler just knows their spell list. They’re basically a sorcerer and a rogue without sneak attack, and INT based casting.

[OGDojo]

Um, last I recall, Beguiler just knows their spell list. They’re basically a sorcerer and a rogue without sneak attack, and INT based casting.

Beguiler gets to ability to learn arcane spells from the sorcerer wizard list but he has to spend in game time to learn them

[Esprit15]

Beguiler gets to ability to learn arcane spells from the sorcerer wizard list but he has to spend in game time to learn them

From PHBII:

A beguiler casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the beguiler spell list on page 11. When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list. You also have the option of adding to your existing spell list through your advanced learning class feature (see below) as you increase in level.

They’re a fixed list caster, only gaining spells from a class feature, which just happens, no study involved.