How to Optimize Fiend of Possession?

[Voidstar01]

Right so I'm going to Try and play a Cursed Sword Type Character, Using a fiend of possession and an item familiar I'm wondering how to optimize this build. How can I get into FoP the fastest? What class(es) should I fill my non-FoP levels with? What stats should I focus on? and what feats are most helpful for this build? Remeber 1 feat slot is going towards item familiar.

[Trandir]

Ok after looking in a couple of manual I have found two races that could qualify quite easly: you could play as a dretch (MM, 2 racial HD and LA +2) or a Kaorti (FF, 2 racial HD and LA +2), or even better be turned into one this way you should avoid the 2 racial HD but still get the full racial bundle, -4 to Str +4 +4 to Dex to int and +6 to cha (I can't tell if you lose your racial traits but if you begin as a human you get skill ranks and a feat that I am pretty sure will not be changed) so you can take 2 levels in a class woth good will save.

Then if you take a level in a class with a good will save so you can take your first level of Fiend of Possession as 6th level.

If you can buy off the LA then becoming a Kaorti is by far the best way to do it otherways they are quite similar.


As for class levels I do not have any idea. You can take either:
10 class levels including one in a base one with good will save if you choose to play one of those races (2 racial HD, 2 LA, Fiend of possession 6, class with good will save 1)
12 class levels including one in a base one with good will save if you choose to play one of those races and you can buy off the LA or if you get transformed but can not buy off the LA and then take 2 levels in a different class with good will (2 racial HD/class with good will save, Fiend of possession 6, class with good will save )
14 class levels including one in a base one with good will save and if you get transformed and can also buy off the LA, but you are limited for the first 3 levels (Fiend of possession 6, class with good will save 1, another class with good will save 2).

I have no idea for how to use these levels but on top pf my mind you could take umbal disciple 3 (you can get 1 essentia with a feat) and get HIPS so while ethereal it will be a real hassle seeing you.

[Bphill561]

Here is my FoP handbook that Popanas saved from wizards old site: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=4354.0

I won't repeat the whole thing, but in general:

The best entry sort of depends on what level you are starting at. As Trandir mentioned, Kaorti is probably the easiest True outsider for a ground up build (2HD +2LA). Second to that is playing a Diabolus from the Dragon Compendium and adding on the Divine Minion template http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a. Diabolus is an outsider with the lawful subtype (+1 LA) which the divine minion template will switch to evil if you pick Sebek (+1 LA) for a total of a +2 LA. Both of these options makes you look a little monsterous.

If you are starting higher in level, ie you got cash to spend, then the ritual of alignment from Savage species is your friend. For 56,000k gp and 2,240 xp you can gain the evil subtype. Then you can apply this to any outsider, such as any +0 LA race with the otherworldly template applied to them or a planetouched raced. Otherworldly is a Faerun regional feat that was updated in Champions of Valor to be allowed to apply to any race. For can also pick up the outsider type for a +1 LA if you take one level in the savage progression break down for half-fiend, you can level the class at any time. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a These are better options as they let you play standard PC races with little to no LA, but you need the cash and the ability to build as if you spent it at a lower level than you got it.

There are some spell caster options for later entry into FoP which allow any race, but you will be waiting to level 10 or so.

Depending on which option you are stuck with, from there you just have to take 2 levels in one good Will save class (or outsider HD in the case of the Kaorti) and 1 level in another good will save class. Just select a combination that grants you access to both the Hide and Knowledge Arcane skills.

Outside of your Fiend of possession levels, you have to decide if you want to shoe horn spell casting abilites in or stick with augmenting your ridee'. There are builds posted in the handbook link. I am kind of partial to psionics. Ardents can make up a lot of ground due to how their manifesting ability works based on manifester level instead of typical progression. You can jump into thrall herd to pick up a slave to ride around on and manifest all day while in the sword. If avoiding squeezing in casting, marshal mixed with Fiend of Corruption levels can allow you more ability to augment your ridee'. You can also go the extra cheese route if your group allows it to mix in bloodlines from unearthed arcania. Those bloodline levels will add to your level based ability to enchant weapons from the FoP.

So take a look at the builds in the link and do your best to beg, steal, or barrow the 56k gp for the ritual of alignment to cut out build LA if you can manage it.

[Voidstar01]

Here is my FoP handbook that Popanas saved from wizards old site: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=4354.0

Thank you, I was looking for somthing like this but was only able to find balance questions about the class.

[Silvercrys]

Fell asleep writing/researching this post last night, parts of it are redundant with Bphill's post and handbook link (because it's seriously a great resource and one I spent a lot of time last night combing, heh).

I think you can technically enter Fiend of Possession as an evil-aligned Neraph (from the Planar Handbook) using a ritual in Savage Species called the Ritual of Alignment to gain the (Evil) subtype, but it costs 56,000 gp and a few thousand xp, which you can't afford until level 11 without breaking Wealth by Level somehow. It's the only LA+0 way to get the Outsider subtype I know of, though, other than the Otherworldly feat. Still need the ritual either way though....

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And, well... here is. a build.

It contains nearly lethal levels of cheese, but I got inspired while digging around some other Fiend of Possession threads.

Start as whatever race you'd like. No, really.

Use the Celestially-Attended Birth background to take the Otherworldly feat at level 1. Now you're an Outsider (Native) with all the benefits thereof.

Next, you'll go on some adventures. A lot of adventures, actually. Play a Psion (Telepath) or an Ardent. Or a Warlock 1/Sorcerer 1/Hexblade 2/Warlock +1/Mindbender X if you're not going Thrallherd.

Take a level of Mindbender, if you're allowed to get into it using the Psionics adaptation (or using Practiced Spellcaster if you're the Warlock/Hexblade), and some Thrallherd levels because why not. Make sure you have your copy of the Player's Handbook II handy when you get to level 13~ish.

When you have enough gold to buy the Ritual of Alignment from Savage Species, do that. Try to get your hands on a Thoughtbottle, as well, and use it to only pay 500 XP for the Ritual... But don't lose it, we're going to need it again in a minute.

Next is the real cheese. Open your copy of the Player's Handbook II to page 197 and very carefully read the rules for retraining class levels. Then read the rules for retraining race on page 198. Then go to page 199 and start making Knowledge checks to learn the location of the Gates of Dawn. When you get there, mow down the EL 8-9 encounter(s), and store your experience in the Thoughtbottle.

Enter the Gate, and instantly retrain (1) your Race, to Dvati, and (2) 3 of your class levels to Fiend of Possession, which you qualify for as an Outsider (Native, Evil). Buy off your new LA by paying a heap of XP (enough to go from 12 to 11). Oops, you're unconscious for an hour, but no big deal. When you wake up, use the Thoughtbottle again to restore your lost experience. Now you can enter the Gate of Dawn again and retrain some more class levels.

You should now be a Dvati Psion 5/Mindbender 1/Thrallherd 1/Fiend of Possession 5 at ECL 12 (assuming you started at ECL 13), around 1000 xp away from level 13. If you wanted to go whole hog Fiend of Possession, you took Leadership or Undead Leadership at 6 instead of Thrallherd, so retrain your class levels to something like Warlock 2/Hexblade 1/Fiend of Possession 6/Legacy Champion 3, then take Legacy Champion to 10 and finish with Hexblade +1 to get +14 equivalent weapons when you possess them and your Charisma to saves and such (either need to retrain your ability scores or use a Charisma based class while leveling or something). Invocations from Warlock have somatic components, so those are a no-go, but Eldritch Blast itself isn't, and neither is your at-will Detect Magic, and since using (Sp) abilities isn't spellcasting you can use Eldritch Blast with both twins each round if you want to. Shame it's only 1d6, but it's better than nothing. You also get the fairly rare luck bonus on saves from Dark One's Own Luck, by leaving the object each day and using it on yourself before repossessing the objects, and it stacks with your Charisma bonus to saves from Hexblade making it very, very difficult to remove you from stuff with spells.

So what does this character actually do? Well, you can do all sorts of stuff with it.

Use one Dvati Twin to possess, then animate a suit of Full Plate and try to get someone to argue that you don't benefit from the armor's enchantments while you are the armor, and the other to possess the Greatsword while they also try to argue that an animated suit of armor can't wield weapons (it probably can).

Or have your cohort/thrall use your possessed armor and weapons, or use what's left of your wealth by level (you don't need it anymore, heh) enchanting a suit of armor for your cohort and have one of the Dvati Twins possess the cohort once you get Fiend of Possession 6.

If you took Ardent instead of Psion, Practiced Manifester can actually keep your Psionic powers fairly relevant (18th level manifesting if you return to Ardent or Thrallherd after Fiend of Possession, though you have "only" +6 worth of bonuses on your stuff then... You can technically advance both with bloodline levels but that's a whole other load of cheese). Since Psionics are mental-only actions you have free reign to manifest powers from the relative safety of the objects you're possessing.

You could also try to possess and animate a noncontinuous object like a bunch of desert sand and try to use that to move the armor, there's not really any RAW for that, though. I guess it isn't much different from animating a statue you put armor on, players try stuff like that all the time.

Of course, you could also handwave all of the Char Op stuff and just build a Psionic Gish (something like Necropolitan Ardent 6/Slayer 1/Mindbender 1/Thrallherd 2/Slayer +9/Ardent +1 with Practiced Manifester) and use Thrallherd to attract a Dvati Warlock 2/Hexblade 2/Fiend of Possession 1 that already paid for the Ritual of Alignment but suffered a bunch of permanent negative levels so you can get it as early as possible. That might get even more books thrown at you, but as a Thrall you can get it at your ECL 6 instead of having to wait until your ECL 13 and jumping through a bunch of hoops yourself.

In any case, you might want to find a real life "breastplate of book dodging" if you try to bring this to a normal DnD table that isn't used to this kind of zany stuff.

And if they are, you could just explain what you want to do and ask to play a Dvati Warlock/Hexblade/Fiend of Possession who used to be a powerful Warlock and got the Ritual of Alignment performed but got permanently level drained by a Succubus/Incubus/Undead creature or something. I'd probably be cool with it at my table assuming the other players were.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bladeling (MM2) has 1 HD of Outsider and a +1 LA, with the Lawful subtype. In 3.5 only humanoids with one racial HD replace it with their first class level, unless your DM rules otherwise. One outsider HD is fine as it helps your skills and the prerequisite will save for FoP.

Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) can be as low as +1 LA, and changes your current alignment subtype to match the selected deity's alignment.

So a Bladeling Divine Minion of Sebek has a +2 LA and one HD of Outsider, and the [Evil] subtype.


I'd make it an Outsider 1/ Ardent 2/ Fiend of Possesion, then more Ardent and/or Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) afterward. Take Leadership (or Thrallherd) and possess your physically strong cohort, granting it various bonuses. Ardent is preferred as you can take Practiced Manifester to catch up on the highest level powers you can learn, and always use Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a). You can manifest personal-range powers on a creature you're possessing, and you can allow the creature you're possessing to control its own physical actions while you take purely mental actions to manifest powers.

[Voidstar01]

Thanks silvercrys and biffonaicus, I always appreciate unique builds because even if I don't end up learning new races and classes from it. Not sure if i'm going to use leadership/Thrallherd because while i'm 100% certain that's the most optimal way to play, putting up some holy enchant on my weapon with my ability and causing whatever poor unfortunate paladin picks me up to alignment slide all way down seems fun (or failing that possessing his bed while hes sleeping and using my bestow curse ability every six seconds until his wisdom hits 0). i'm torn between Dvati and Katori, Dvati allow me to posses my wielder and my sword at the same time, but I also like the Katori fluff and they involve significantly less nonsense in porder to qualifie for the class.

[Thurbane]

Usual fastest entry to FoP (for race) is Diabolus (Dragon Compendium p.6) + Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a). Total of LA +2, and no racial hit dice to deal with.

[Silvercrys]

Should probably mention that the uncheesiest Dvati entry is just Cleric 5/Divine Disciple 5/Fiend of Possession 6 or Favored Soul 6/Divine Disciple 5/Fiend of Possession 6 using Versatile Spellcaster to qualify for Divine Disciple's "able to cast 4th level spells" requirement. Cleric is optimal because it's a level sooner and gives you 4 levels of Legacy Champion or whatever you want at the end, but not everyone agrees that the Cleric's spontaneous cures/inflicts counts as being able to spontaneously cast spells for Versatile Spellcaster.