Best build for Melee main hand with hand crossbow off-hand?

[Wasp]

Hi everyone!

With the Artificer's Repeat Shot infusion and crossbow expert we can use a hand crossbow off hand for a bonus action attack while using a melee weapon in the main hand for normal attacking. If I just WANT to use this fighting style (regardless if other tactics would be better) - what would be the best build for that?

Needed for this seems to be Artificer 2 for the infusion and the Crossbow Expert feat (plus a way to use a decent damage melee weapon for the main hand). Luckily in my play group every character gets a free feat at first level, so it's not *that* limiting.

Other details: Standard array, no variant human, starting level 5.

Based on a different thread I started on a Rogue/Artificer mash up where this idea came to my attention it seems a pure Artificer Battlesmith may be the way to go or a Battlesmith 5 or 6 / Rogue. What do you think would be the best build for this?

[Foff]

Pick up fighter for archery fighting style and action surge, use your second infusion to make a returning dagger or dart. Somewhere along the way pick up sharpshooter and Blow up things from medium range with no penalties

[Bobthewizard]

Crossbow expert. Then Artificer 2 for repeating hand crossbow and +1 short sword. Then I'd go gloomstalker ranger 5 for archery style, extra attack, one more attack on the first round, extended darkvision, hunter's mark and pass without trace. Then swashbuckler rogue for the rest for sneak attack damage. Maybe add 2 levels of fighter in there for action surge, taking two-weapon fighting style or defense, but I'd get DEX to 20 and sharpshooter first.

Feel free to change the order of any of this.

[Talionis]

Hexblade Warlocks Pact of Blade can make a magic handcrossbow it’s pact Weapon and you can use the first level Hexblade to make a second weapon focus on your Charisma. You have access to Smites by Invocation and spell choice. Some Smite spells like Branding Smite can be used by ranged weapons.

You only need twelve levels to get Lifedrinker and Thirsting Blade invocations at which point youll leave Warlock. You don’t need Dexterity. So lots of multi class options are on the table.

Funny option is three to six levels of Divine Paladin for Charisma to accuracy for one minute. This combines well to offset Sharpshooter penalty.

Dragon Sorcerer 6 is another option since flame arrows has potential and Dragon Sorcerer can add your Charisma again to those attacks.

[Zhorn]

Pick up fighter for archery fighting style and action surge, use your second infusion to make a returning dagger or dart. Somewhere along the way pick up sharpshooter and Blow up things from medium range with no penalties

One liners are mandatory with that build

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQtIearBLAE

[Bobthewizard]

Although with this build, you don't get any more attacks than you would just using a single hand crossbow with crossbow expert.

Mechanically, your best bet might be a single repeating hand crossbow and using your second infusion for a +1 shield.

It's maybe not the look you're going for but it gets the same number of attacks and has +3 on its AC.

[Dork_Forge]

Weapon wise you want a hand crossbow (Hxb) in your offhand with repeating shot and an infused rapier in your main hand, taking xb expert as your free feat. Take Battle Smith to 6th for Arcane Jolt and use your Iron Defender for flanking if applicable and defensive positioning to use Defensive Pounce. Mix in Fighter (taking Archery style) and go for Battlemaster, taking maneuvers that synergise with range attacks and Parry for some defensive options (probably just to 4 as you already have Extra Attack). Depending on if you went light armor or medium armor take a 2 level dip in Wizard, prefereably Bladesinger to maximise that high Int, if you went Medium armor then War Wizard for the initiative boost, you can use Arcane Deflection without reprocussions as you'll be weapon attacking anyway.

[saucerhead]

Hi everyone!

With the Artificer's Repeat Shot infusion and crossbow expert we can use a hand crossbow off hand for a bonus action attack while using a melee weapon in the main hand for normal attacking. If I just WANT to use this fighting style (regardless if other tactics would be better) - what would be the best build for that?


I'm not the best optimizer, but I like this idea and I've been looking at a similar artificer/rogue build.

The dual wielding gives some different options. First, the iron guardian is within 5 feet of a target to attack, which will allow for your sneak attack with the main hand melee weapon. Your second option is to sneak attack someone else at range with your offhand crossbow. Obviously, you can't do both as sneak attacks, but you can use your arcane weapon spell or poison to up the damage on either. I was concerned with being in melee and not having a shield, or ability to cast a shield spell, but the iron defender can impose disadvantage with its reaction if the enemy attacks you. So I think it works.

Having a third class like fighter could have the benefits of a fighting style and action surge, but it would slow down progression putting you even further behind your colleagues. It really depends. I think for me it would come down to a choice between an Artificer14/Arcane trickster 6 or an Art16/AT4 build. The former gives an extra d6 on SA, uncanny dodge, and expertise on two more skills, the latter more ASIs and more infusion options. Either way, it is not a small dip into rogue.

Ranger instead of Rogue is an option I hadn't considered, but could be worth a look. You would probably be focusing on ranged attacks going that route.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd definitely go Artificer up to 5th, to get Extra Attack. After that... either more Artificer or Wizard, I'd say.

[RickAllison]

Practically speaking, if we are talking about "best" builds to combine the two disciplines, it's probably not focusing too hard on the crossbow because, ultimately, those are going to be worse than just using hand crossbow for everything (since you can fire it in melee anyway). At least that's the case if we are playing fair with the hand crossbow. The best option I can think of to justify the dual-wielding is to use a bandoleer of hand crossbows with poison-tipped bolts, but that solution comes with the problem that poisons have a shelf life once applied IIRC, and also would be very expensive. An artificer can manufacture weak stuff with a Jug of Alchemy and have doubled proficiency with poisoner's kit, but I'm still not sure it can make up for just being a hand crossbow-user.

[8wGremlin]

Straight Artificer. With crossbow expert
At level 5 you get 2 shots with your attack action and another shot as a bonus action.

With arcane weaponry you can be doing 2d6+Stay+1 per shot. With 3 chances to crit.

You can also change the element type to be more effective

[Wasp]

How about Battle Smith with Blade Singer for more Int synergy and help for the melee aspect?

I would really love it if this were a build where the mixing of the both would actually be valuable - but I guess the system isn't really set up that way.

[RickAllison]

How about Battle Smith with Blade Singer for more Int synergy and help for the melee aspect?

I would really love it if this were a build where the mixing of the both would actually be valuable - but I guess the system isn't really set up that way.

It definitely seems like it is better as a combat option rather than something to build around. Like a Swashbuckler taking a pot shot at an enemy heading towards her squishy friend, or going the Drow route and having the weapon poisoned.

[Talionis]

Mechanically, the main reason to use a melee weapon at all is probably having access to attacks of opportunity. Thus a Rogue trying to activate Sneak Attack twice per Round when it’s your turn and on an attack of opportunity make sense.

Optimizing that is getting Booming Blade and Sentinel Feat. Really optimized you might use a Whip and get the Spell Sniper Feat. The Extra Crossbow Attack is not wasted because multiple attacks on your own turn increase the chance you land your Sneak Attack on almost all your turns.

[Dork_Forge]

How about Battle Smith with Blade Singer for more Int synergy and help for the melee aspect?

I would really love it if this were a build where the mixing of the both would actually be valuable - but I guess the system isn't really set up that way.

Bladesinger and Battlesmith would work very well together, it would be an effective combination the only thing you'd need to think about is casting arcane weapon before combat so it only takes you one round to set up. You may want to talk to your DM about creating special bolts or an automatic poison applicator too.

[Wasp]

Thanks everyone! I feel a little frustrated that such a build will always be suboptimal *sigh* - but you were great!

[clash]

Since crossbow expert already allows you to basically treat a crossbow as a melee weapon to have to really focus on the stuff that makes melee weapons more effective.
* Melee weapons usually have a higher damage die(1d8 is still slightly better than the 1d6 from the crossbow)
* Opportunity attacks (These can be enhanced by things like sneak attack or warcaster or sentinal to make them even more effective)
* Abilities that require a melee weapon attack (These include smite, some battle master manuevers, Barbarian rage bonus, monk stunning strike)
* Style, cause wielding a sword and a crossbow is cool
I think the largest simplest benefit is opportunity attacks. Grabbing something like warcaster can make those into spell or cantrips and increase your action economy.

[Wasp]

Since crossbow expert already allows you to basically treat a crossbow as a melee weapon to have to really focus on the stuff that makes melee weapons more effective.
* Melee weapons usually have a higher damage die(1d8 is still slightly better than the 1d6 from the crossbow)
* Opportunity attacks (These can be enhanced by things like sneak attack or warcaster or sentinal to make them even more effective)
* Abilities that require a melee weapon attack (These include smite, some battle master manuevers, Barbarian rage bonus, monk stunning strike)
* Style, cause wielding a sword and a crossbow is cool
I think the largest simplest benefit is opportunity attacks. Grabbing something like warcaster can make those into spell or cantrips and increase your action economy.
Thank you for the feedback, I am way more happy now :smallwink:

Warcaster. Interesting. It seems to be pretty much a must anyway if i want to recast Arcane Weapon in combat while holding weapons in both hands.

Sentinel could also be quite cool but would probably have to wait quite some time...

In the end: It's cool and if I am making suboptimal choices to get there, so be it! (I am just in a way more better mood today)

[Dork_Forge]

Thank you for the feedback, I am way more happy now :smallwink:

Warcaster. Interesting. It seems to be pretty much a must anyway if i want to recast Arcane Weapon in combat while holding weapons in both hands.

Sentinel could also be quite cool but would probably have to wait quite some time...

In the end: It's cool and if I am making suboptimal choices to get there, so be it! (I am just in a way more better mood today)

Unless you went V. Human or heavy on Fighter after Artficer you'll be waiting a fair amount of time for feats. With that said my opinion on Warcaster for this build is: Unless you get a melee cantrip from somewhere, it likely isn't worth it.

You're weapon focused anyway and you don't actually need it to cast your spells whilst dual wielding. Artificers REQUIRE a toolset to cast spells, which counts as an Arcane focus for them, however you can use an infused item/weapon as a focus. So you're essentially dual wielding foci and can cast all your spells normally.

Feats wise, if you're going to play a support role than Healer really frees up your slots, Tough is great for mixing it up with a ton of hp. Elemental Adept would be pretty handy too, increasing your minimum Arcane Weapon damage and making it so you don't have to use a BA to switch types to get around resistances.