[3.5] Any reliable, non-BS way to get scroll creation down to under 1 hour?

[Zaq]

I was just randomly reminded of an old character concept I had long ago but could never make work.

The image is of a spellthief stealing spells from enemies and then scribing them into scrolls. Not sure if they’d then sell the scrolls or try to study them for later or whatever, but that’s not really the crux right this second. The core concept is just to be scribing spells stolen with spellthief’s steal spell feature.

The problem is that a spellthief only hangs onto a stolen spell for 1 hour. Scribing a scroll takes longer than that—a lot longer. 1 day per 1k gp. The nickel-and-dime “reduce crafting time” feats (whatever Artisan and so on) aren’t quite enough. Or even particularly close to enough.

So without lunging straight to BS like “get wish or miracle to instantly create an item” or “shift to a plane with messed-up time flow for crafting” (both of which are impractical and, more importantly, boring), is there any way to make this functional?

The character should be as much of a pure-class spellthief as possible (but a clever concept-enabling dip here and there is acceptable), I’d prefer to accomplish this without Leadership/specific party support, and this isn’t for a real game. As typical for me, if we can avoid Dragon Mag, let’s stick to first-party stuff, just out of preference.

Note: while less interesting, I’d also accept “scribing stolen spells into a spellbook,” but that’s not as much fun for quite a lot of reasons.

[SquidFighter]

Can't you just have a scroll crafted almost to completion, and finishing it in the hour you have the spell ?

Nothing specifically calls for the one day crafting time to be continuous, right ?

It would arguably require you to know which spell you would be stealing though, since you could need to state at the start of the crafting which scroll your are making.

[Zaq]

Can't you just have a scroll crafted almost to completion, and finishing it in the hour you have the spell ?

Nothing specifically calls for the one day crafting time to be continuous, right ?

It would arguably require you to know which spell you would be stealing though, since you could need to state at the start of the crafting which scroll your are making.

Yeah, that occurred to me, and I was stopped by the same concern. It doesn’t make sense to me that anyone can make a “generic scroll” that turns into a specific scroll when charged with a given spell, though that’s kind of an interesting concept (like the spell quick potion, only for scrolls). I’d be willing to listen to an argument that RAW allows it, but I’m not convinced right this second. Though that does sound like the kind of ability that some PrC would give, don’t you think?

[Elves]

This would be a cool homebrew feat/ACF/class feature for spellthieves (who, let's admit it, need the love) -- "Spell Shorthand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorthand)". Spellthieves have a quick, corrupt form of shorthand that they use to jot down spells before they disappear from their memory. The result are scrolls that are somewhat corrupt, maybe with a spell failure chance %.

They might then pay someone to translate it into conventional arcane script, or do it themselves, but the results would be even more corrupt, increasing the failure %, incentivizing the spellthief to use their own scrolls instead of selling them (or necessitating that they pull the wool over the eyes of the buyer to get full price).

[SquidFighter]

If I recall correctly, you can cast the spell at any point during creation, which implies you could start with your stolen spell, and then craft for the day.

[Jowgen]

I think the Quill of Scribing, CM p. 134 should alleviate your worries.

As a standard action you make it do the scribeing for you. It still takes the same amount of time and such, but you can do other things. Real cheap at 1750 gp as well.

I think it would be rather unreasonable for anyone to rule that you need to have the spell that your quill is off scribing somewhere available for the whole time it's doing that. It is quite RAI that the spell in question goes into the quill just like all the other crafting requirements, when you activate it as a standard action.

Note, it seems that this item technically allows you to be scribing multiple scrolls at the same time. The rules state that you can only be working on crafting one magic item at a time, but that is precisely what the Quill is doing in your place.

Might offer a rather convenient means for you to put your stolen spells into storage.

[Zaq]

If I recall correctly, you can cast the spell at any point during creation, which implies you could start with your stolen spell, and then craft for the day.

Problem with that is that it still takes a full day. Which means that if you get your spell in the middle of your adventuring day, your adventuring day is over as you suddenly stop what you’re doing and scribble on a scroll for eight hours. I find that less than awesome. Is there a rule written down anywhere about spending less than 1 hour at a time on crafting?

A dedicated wright ALMOST solves the problem, but you still have to (RAW) stop what you’re doing the round after you grab the spell and start crafting. You have to spend 1 hour loading up the dedicated wright, and you only have 1 hour with the spell. Maybe if you argue that the “craft 25% faster” feat means you only need to spend 45 minutes with the wright, you can then have a few rounds to finish the encounter before diving into crafting mode? Maybe. But then that raises the concern of how the hell a spellthief gets their hands on a dedicated wright... Craft Construct is a bear for someone other than an artificer to get (this spellthief is already spending a feat on Scribe Scroll, but then they’d need to spend three more—few of which are conducive to spellthievery—getting Craft Construct), and it’s somewhat annoying for the spellthief to provide the prereq spells for the wright itself early on. But wrights are “never sold,” so that kinda sucks if you don’t have a way around it. Any ideas in that vein?

[ericgrau]

If I recall correctly, you can cast the spell at any point during creation, which implies you could start with your stolen spell, and then craft for the day.



These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.


The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Scribing a scroll requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price.


There is similar text for creating other magic items. I couldn't find anything on exactly when the spell is expended but it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume it is expended at the beginning of the crafting process. I see no reason why any reasonable DM wouldn't allow you to steal a spell and then immediately start scribing a scroll after the fight is over.

I don't see any reason to assume that you must have the spell during the entire crafting time, though I can understand that interpretation as well. After all if you spend all day writing then perhaps the spell must also be in your head all day. The thing is, there is a little known rule that you may craft multiple spells onto a single scroll. Each one is expended one by one. Besides making it easier to draw multiple spells at once (useful for multiple copies of the same spell for example), this also means you can craft multiple spells in the same day as long as the value is not over 1,000 gp. So I think if the scroll is 125 gp or less in value, and probably much more than that, it's reasonable to assume you finish the writing part in under an hour. I suppose the rest of the time is spent enchanting it and what not, which is what makes the process take a full 8 hours even on a level 1 scroll of a single spell. If I were the DM I'd fudge it at a 500 gp base price limit to get the knowing-the-spell part of scroll creation done in under an hour.

So by strict RAW the answer is "Unclear/unspecified, but somewhere between yes you may always do this already with no special steps and you must know the spell for a full 8 hours." By RAI it's fuzzy but I think it's usually fine to scribe a scroll with a spellthief's stolen spell without taking any special steps.


Problem with that is that it still takes a full day. Which means that if you get your spell in the middle of your adventuring day, your adventuring day is over as you suddenly stop what you’re doing and scribble on a scroll for eight hours. I find that less than awesome. Is there a rule written down anywhere about spending less than 1 hour at a time on crafting?
99% of the time the adventuring day ends after 1 fight or within an hour of the first fight and you rest for 8+ hours anyway. True if you're traveling it doesn't work well, but I suppose you can't scribe scrolls on those days. Or get a portable hole and bottle of air. Or a carriage with a soft suspension. Suspensions did exist, the first ones I think. They used ropes and actually suspended the carriage IIRC. Or some such thing to give yourself a peaceful scribing area.

[Zaq]

I think the Quill of Scribing, CM p. 134 should alleviate your worries.

As a standard action you make it do the scribeing for you. It still takes the same amount of time and such, but you can do other things. Real cheap at 1750 gp as well.

I think it would be rather unreasonable for anyone to rule that you need to have the spell that your quill is off scribing somewhere available for the whole time it's doing that. It is quite RAI that the spell in question goes into the quill just like all the other crafting requirements, when you activate it as a standard action.

Note, it seems that this item technically allows you to be scribing multiple scrolls at the same time. The rules state that you can only be working on crafting one magic item at a time, but that is precisely what the Quill is doing in your place.

Might offer a rather convenient means for you to put your stolen spells into storage.

Beautiful! That’s more or less exactly what I was looking for. Not even impossible for a spellthief to craft if you feel like blowing a feat on CWI, though that’s not super wise. (Might be wise if you want to have a bunch going at once, though.)

Now I’m wondering if we can find a way to BS a psionic version (using the Psithief feat or the half-baked psionic spellthief adaptation), since you can use the “manifest an unknown power from a power stone using your own PP” rule to actually gain the benefit of the stolen power more than once...

[PraxisVetli]

Research Aid, 4th level spell from Initiate of Boccob, cuts crafting time in half.

[Zaq]

Research Aid, 4th level spell from Initiate of Boccob, cuts crafting time in half.

Sourcebook, please?

[Silvercrys]

Sourcebook, please?Found it! It's Dragon Magazine #342, page 55. So not super widely applicable, sadly...

[Saintheart]

Bit of a stretch away from scrolls, but there's also Inscribe Rune from FRCS with its 10 minutes + casting time of the spell to craft a touch-activated rune. Fits right in with Spellthief's wording that the spell must be 'cast' within one hour, since that's precisely what crafting a rune requires. However, it would also need Southern Magician (Shining South) to turn arcane spells into divine ones to get around Runecaster's dictum that it has to be a divine spell that goes into the rune.

It would also need one ruling, which probably advances it into slightly BS territory: normally the caster has to prepare the spell that goes into the rune. Spellthief's wording provides that "Treat the spell as if it were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining caster level, save DC, and so forth." If that's enough for the DM to rule that the spell is treated as though it were prepared by the spellthief, then Inscribe Rune would allow you to steal a spell and inscribe it into a touch-activated rune within the 1 hour. (Anything more fancy like getting it to activate on being read or passed would take the Runecaster, which is a different story.)

[Ruethgar]

It’s not a scroll, but one of the gem dragon articles had a dragon who got their own spell to make scroll-like magic items... let me find it.

Focal Stone (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20040225a)

[daremetoidareyo]

It’s not a scroll, but one of the gem dragon articles had a dragon who got their own spell to make scroll-like magic items... let me find it.

Focal Stone (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20040225a)

Quick potion the 2nd level spell would allow you to store certain spells under a 4th level as potions that last hour/level.

[Saintheart]

It’s not a scroll, but one of the gem dragon articles had a dragon who got their own spell to make scroll-like magic items... let me find it.

Focal Stone (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20040225a)

That's Gem Magic, out of Forgotten Realms. Specifically, the Attune Gem feat from Magic of Faerun - which wasn't updated in PGtF and thus is still playable. Might be a solution, but it still requires some DM adjudication. Gem Magic is basically the arcane equivalent of runecasting in Forgotten Realms, i.e. you can store arcane spells in gems which can be triggered at a touch. The problem is the time involved: 1 hour plus the casting time of the spell, which doesn't help our Spellthief.

The time can arguably be cut down if you're a gnome by taking the Maester PrC from Complete Adventurer: Attune Gem, the feat that allows you to create gems of this kind, is an feat. What we're most interested in here is Maester 1's Quick Crafting feature, which on one hand usefully says that the Maester can craft a magic item in half the normal time required ... but on the other then says "(one day per 2,000 gp in the item’s base price; minimum one day)". I'd argue to a DM that, by definition, an attuned gem is a magic item. Therefore, the material in the parenthesis was only intended as a clarification for "orthodox" magic item feats such as Scribe Scroll which do have that restriction, but that it otherwise does apply to the time limits of other magic items - i.e. the specific overrides the general in those instances. That is, you cut the time down for attuning a gem from 1 hour to half an hour.

The other element that needs DM adjudication is that Attune Gem specifies "You must have the spell available to cast (prepared if you must prepare spells; known otherwise) and must provide any material components or focuses the spell requires." So: same problem as runecasting, your DM has to deem that when you thieve the spell off hapless Hennet or mediocre Mialee, it becomes a spell known to you for that brief period of time, or that you've somehow prepared it.

And indeed for that reason, the Focal Stone spell wouldn't work for a Spellthief, because of the wording from the spell: "[i]The gem and spell must meet all the criteria of the Attune Gem feat and gem magic." Which means it must have been a spell known or prepared by the Spellthief, which the Spellthief's stealing feature arguably doesn't grant by RAW.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There are other ways to store spells for later use beyond scrolls. A spell-storing weapon or a ring of spell storing, for instance, Shalantha's delicate disk, and the soul crystal psionic power, to name four of them.

[Malroth]

Can't you just carry around 3 or 4 spell storing arrows you fill up with your stolen spells untill you need them for crafting?

[Mr Adventurer]

As previously quoted in this very thread, "The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)".

So you can't learn new spells this way by definition, since you must have it prepared or known already.

[Saintheart]

As previously quoted in this very thread, "The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)".

So you can't learn new spells this way by definition, since you must have it prepared or known already.

I wish we could use that paradox, but the pages of a spellbook are not magic items. Scribe Scroll =/= recording a spell in a wizard's spellbook.