[3.5] Dread Necro/FS/MT Build Advice

[Thurbane]

So, how would you build an optimized Dread Necromancer/Favored Soul theurge build?

Is it possible to get 9ths on both sides?

At my table, following restrictions apply: no PF, no Dragon Mag only content, no homebrew, no psionics, no epic, no gestalt, no UA generic classes. Also, as little FR or Eberron specific material as possible.

No infinite loop/Pun Pun/Illithid Savant level cheese, please. It needs to be a build that would be allowed at most tables.

Cheers - T

[Anthrowhale]

It is possible to get 9s on both sides, but it requires something like contracting lycanthropy.

DN 1/Lycanthrope 4/FS 1 can qualify for Mystic Theurge. Advancing this to DN 1/Lycanthrope 4/FS 1/Mystic Theurge 4, you can remove the lycanthropy leaving MT self-qualifying (to check, note that skills ranks are not lost if class features are lost, and you only need 6 skill ranks to qualify).

Then, you can advance according to DN 1/FS 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Hierophant 9 MT and AH each dual advance.

For MT, you need to early entry via (say) Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster or some metamagic + Sanctum Spell. DN provides in-class access to K(arcana) and K(religion)

For Wildrunner, you need BAB+4, elf or half-elf, good or chaotic, Endurance, Survival 8, Hide 5, Move Silently 5, K(Nature) 5. Apprentice(Woodsman) helps appreciably here, although Hide and Move Silently remain cross-class.

For AH, you need K(Arcana) 8 (easy) and K(nature) 8.

So your feats look something like:
1. Apprentice(Woodsman)
3. Versatile Spellcaster
6. Heighten Spell
9. Endurance

Overall, it requires a rather permissive DM.

[Biggus]

I think you're going to be hard pressed to get 9th on both sides. The best I can think of off the top of my head is DN1/FS4/MT10/Contemplative1/True Necromancer4 with the Precocious Apprentice feat, which gets you 9th-level FS spells and 7th-level DN spells (Contemplative1 to get you the Death domain you need for True Necromancer).

Edit: Bamboo Spirit Folk (OA p.14) gain trackless step as a racial feature, which arguably could allow entry to Arcane Hierophant (AH specifies "trackless step class feature", so according to the most literal reading it doesn't qualify, but I imagine a fair few DMs would let it fly). If so, you could go DN1/FS4/MT10/AH5 and get 9ths for FS and 8ths for DN.

[Mr Adventurer]

Given the choice, I would definitely lose Dread Necromancer top-level spellcasting (8ths and 9ths) versus losing Favoured Soul top-level spellcasting. Dread Necro top level spells have a lot of repetition.

That said, without Advanced Learning, DN spells are basically all necromancy debuffs or save-or-die. Spell Resistance and saving throws apply to everything.

[Silvercrys]

Yeah, you either need your DM to agree that Bamboo Spirit Folk's Trackless Step qualifies you for Arcane Hierophant, in which case Dread Necromancer 2/Favored Soul 2/Mystic Theruge X/Arcane Hierophant 16-X with Versatile Spellcaster and Knowledge Devotion or some other way to get Knowledge (Nature) barely squeaks in to 9s at level 20, or you have to do some kind of HD gaining/losing cheese to get into Mystic Theruge as a Dread Necro 1/Favored Soul 1 so you can dip a level of Wildrunner to get Trackless Step.

I'm pretty sure Arcane Hierophant is the only way to progress both Arcane and Divine casting besides Mystic Theruge itself... and True Necromancer, but Arcane 2/Divine 2/Mystic Theruge 6/True Necromancer 10 only gives you a caster level of 17 on both sides, not good enough to get 9s with the Sorcerer/Favored Soul progression.

Edit: you also need some way of learning a 2nd level Arcane and a 2nd level Divine spell to cast with Versatile Spellcaster; sometimes Heighten Spell is allowed to meet this and sometimes it isn't. Some DMs may also allow you to meet the requirement through the Sanctum Spell Metamagic feat instead of Versatile Spellcaster.

[Thurbane]

I'd rather not cheese it with gaining and losing HD.

So long as I get 9ths on the Favored Soul side, I'd be happy not quite getting 9ths on the Dread Necromancer side.

If I dip Contemplative or Divine Disciple to get access to the Death domain, would True Necromancer be of any use in theurging?

[ZamielVanWeber]

The simplest answer is FS 4/DN 1/MT 10/FS +4/DN +1 with Illumian with improved sigil Krau. That only gets you 18/12 which gets you 9/6 casting. Certainly not stellar but it works. This part is a little more dubious but:

FS 4/DN 1/MT 10/UT 3/FS 2 would net you FS 18 and DN 13 and kick DN up faster but is dubious if the ability of uncanny trickster to advance class features works on mystic theurge.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Depending on how you rule it, Legacy Champion can be used to extend the amount of Mystic Theurge levels you can take.

Using Precocious Apprentice at 1st level:
1. Dread Necromancer 1/ Favored Soul 4/ Mystic Theurge 9/ Legacy Champion (Mystic Theurge) 6
2. Dread Necromancer 1/ Favored Soul 4/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Legacy Champion (Mystic Theurge) 5
3. Dread Necromancer 1/ Favored Soul 4/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Legacy Champion (Mystic Theurge) 6/ Mystic Theurge +3


2 puts off the lost caster level as long as possible. 3 gets into Legacy Champion as soon as possible, saving you a not insignificant amount of money on the legacy ritual. All three get you to effectively Dread Necromancer 15/ Favored Soul 18.

You will of course also have to either find a Legacy Item or found your own. If you go the latter route, as a DM I'd recommend a less harsh cost progression than the sample ones presented in the book.

Additional Note: You could arguably squeeze one more level of Mystic Theurge in there by being a Mulan Human and taking Southern Magician as your human bonus feat. This arguably lets you qualify for MT using solely Dread Necromancer, and thus you don't have to make it to FS 4 before entering. This nets you 8th level spells for Dread Necromancer without losing any Favored Soul progression. EDIT: This works even better for an Arcane Hierophant build, netting you 9ths in each, though you'd need some manner of shenanigans to both get Trackless Step and qualify for Southern Magician.

[Biggus]

If I dip Contemplative or Divine Disciple to get access to the Death domain, would True Necromancer be of any use in theurging?

Er...yes, I suggested that in my first post...

[Thurbane]

Er...yes, I suggested that in my first post...

Somehow missed that, sorry...

[Tedective]

Well you have to be really really evil.

Wizard 5 (For Spontaneous Divination.)

Tainted Sorcerer 1 (For MASSIVE cheese and +2 Fort.)

Ur-Priest 2 (For fast divine spell progression.)

Mystic Theurge 10 (To finish.)

That's... 16 CL Wizard, almost 9th, and 12 CL+8 (1/2 Wizard)=18 CL for Ur-Priest (Already got 9th level spells at 10th).

We're only 18 levels in and have 9th level Cleric spells at... 15th. Even earlier if you shift Wizard levels later in.

One more level of Wizard (Or any Wizard boosting Prestige) and you've got it.

Earliest you can get 9th level Cleric spells is level 14.

Make sure everyone knows you're very very very evil. And also boost your Will Saves as much as you can because Tainted Sorcerer can completely kill builds by just existing.

[Mr Adventurer]

Well you have to be really really evil.

Wizard 5 (For Spontaneous Divination.)

Tainted Sorcerer 1 (For MASSIVE cheese and +2 Fort.)

Ur-Priest 2 (For fast divine spell progression.)

Mystic Theurge 10 (To finish.)

That's... 16 CL Wizard, almost 9th, and 12 CL+8 (1/2 Wizard)=18 CL for Ur-Priest (Already got 9th level spells at 10th).

We're only 18 levels in and have 9th level Cleric spells at... 15th. Even earlier if you shift Wizard levels later in.

One more level of Wizard (Or any Wizard boosting Prestige) and you've got it.

Earliest you can get 9th level Cleric spells is level 14.

Make sure everyone knows you're very very very evil. And also boost your Will Saves as much as you can because Tainted Sorcerer can completely kill builds by just existing.

This build has neither Dread Necromancer nor Favoured Soul in it.

[Korwin]

I'm pretty sure Arcane Hierophant is the only way to progress both Arcane and Divine casting besides Mystic Theruge itself... and True Necromancer, but Arcane 2/Divine 2/Mystic Theruge 6/True Necromancer 10 only gives you a caster level of 17 on both sides, not good enough to get 9s with the Sorcerer/Favored Soul progression.
Well, technically there is also the Fochlucan Lyrist :smalltongue:

I myself would look at Ur-Priest instead of FS to get 9/9.

[Biggus]

I'm pretty sure Arcane Hierophant is the only way to progress both Arcane and Divine casting besides Mystic Theruge itself... and True Necromancer


Well, technically there is also the Fochlucan Lyrist

There's also Green Whisperer, from Dragon Magazine, but that's specific to Bard/ Druid so is no use here. And Yathrinshee from PGtF, but it's unbelievably terrible (6/10 levels dual casting...what's the point?).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well, technically there is also the Fochlucan Lyrist :smalltongue:

I myself would look at Ur-Priest instead of FS to get 9/9.

Not sure how you get into lyrist without dipping a level of bard. Not to mention those skill reqs...