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TheYell
2019-08-25, 02:29 AM
Any tips for a believable transition from a CN sorcerer to a LN sorcerer? If it helps my character is a teen. There is a monk in the party.

The catalyst is a boss fight where my sorcerer whiffed every shot at the baddy. Both metagame and in-game I need to make some changes.

My inclination is a mystical awakening to a Far Eastern self-discipline, meditation and vegetarianism. I'd welcome any thoughts though. (Yes I'm aware meditation and vegetarianism provide no mechanical advantages, I'm just thinking flavor there on top of gaining metagame advantages)

PS That's probably too terse. I'm imagining her dead husband, the extremely overpowered wizard, was a devotee of a Far Eastern cult that believed in reincarnation into dark energy beings. Self-improvement towards enlightenment, focus on exercising power along the way. She's got that example in her life, and she'll adopt self-disciplines to empower herself without going all malevolent.

So for instance, Godless Healing. It's a feat she'll take, being without a patron deity, and the excuse for it in game is, she's going to start meditating daily on her breathing.

Psyren
2019-08-25, 12:50 PM
The monk character showing them the spiritual or mental benefits of meditation would be a fine catalyst if you really feel there needs to be one. If they'd rather not participate in your RP, work with your DM to stumble across a suitable NPC or book. Or simply have your character start behaving differently; as none of your class features depend on alignment you don't really need to make a bigger deal out of it than that.

Themrys
2019-08-25, 01:15 PM
Just out of curiosity, how does a teenage girl acquire an "extremely overpowered" wizard husband and get widowed while still a teen? Very short marriage?

With a teen, you don't really need many reasons for a small alignment shift. I have always admired self-discipline, I'm just bad at it. Why shouldn't your teen just one day decide she wants to be a more disciplined person and follow that path? People expect teens to mature and become more self-disciplined as they age.

Vegetarianism is usually caused by pity for animals (though a teen in a pre-industrial society would likely realize that unless she goes vegan, it won't be much use to animals), or by resource scarcity (10 units of plant protein become 1 unit of animal protein, not very efficient), it would seem weird to me if just introduced as part of "self-discipline". Though of course, if she strives for better mental clarity (to which end meditation would also be a means) she could have read somewhere that meat is bad for that.

Mastikator
2019-08-25, 01:42 PM
Sounds like you pretty much nailed it. I'd advise NOT making it more complicated than that, you have your reason to change, your method of change, your goal.

TheYell
2019-08-25, 01:52 PM
Or simply have your character start behaving differently; as none of your class features depend on alignment you don't really need to make a bigger deal out of it than that.

Thanks, I'll ask the monk to join me in acquiring some discipline and see what happens. The worst aspect is finding an hour of the day to meditate, but that shouldn't be resented by the party.


Just out of curiosity, how does a teenage girl acquire an "extremely overpowered" wizard husband and get widowed while still a teen? Very short marriage?

Concubinage. Cut short by Pathfinders exploring the lair of an evil wizard. I'm using the term "husband" kind of loosely, I don't know what else to say in that arrangement.

We'll stipulate she was 18 when she was bartered from the drow, so, yeah, short-term there.

I wanted a changeling, so a female. I wanted a level one humanoid, not just a 30 year old who starts adventuring, so a teenager.
Misread something, so I chose her to be half-drow to begin with.
How does somebody be less than drow among the drow? As a slave.
How does a slave get away from the drow? I thought of being traded to a different master and then liberated.
Didn't really figure the practical consequences of that in advance.


I have always admired self-discipline, I'm just bad at it.

I probably admitted as much about myself, creating this thread :)


she could have read somewhere that meat is bad for that.

METAGAME I find Godless Healing really cheesy, because it gives a supernatural healing power without describing how you get it. "You have mastered a specialized and complex technique to ignore pain by focusing your belief on the self rather than relying on faith." OK, beyond wishing really really really hard, what?

So I'm having her start a regimen of meditation and diet a while before I take the feat, recalling the mysticism practiced by her late husband. Then she'll get the feat as a payoff for her practice.


Sounds like you pretty much nailed it.

Thank you.

zinycor
2019-08-25, 02:02 PM
Seems like you already have it figured out, just explain this very same reasoning to your GM and you will be alright.

King of Nowhere
2019-08-25, 02:43 PM
Thanks, I'll ask the monk to join me in acquiring some discipline and see what happens. The worst aspect is finding an hour of the day to meditate, but that shouldn't be resented by the party.


Concubinage. Cut short by Pathfinders exploring the lair of an evil wizard. I'm using the term "husband" kind of loosely, I don't know what else to say in that arrangement.

We'll stipulate she was 18 when she was bartered from the drow, so, yeah, short-term there.

I wanted a changeling, so a female. I wanted a level one humanoid, not just a 30 year old who starts adventuring, so a teenager.
Misread something, so I chose her to be half-drow to begin with.
How does somebody be less than drow among the drow? As a slave.
How does a slave get away from the drow? I thought of being traded to a different master and then liberated.
Didn't really figure the practical consequences of that in advance.


I was expecting a "it was normal in ancient times for middle aged men to have arranged marriages with teen girls"
but that makes for a much better backstory. it has the potential for plot hooks and for character growth in different directions.



METAGAME I find Godless Healing really cheesy, because it gives a supernatural healing power without describing how you get it. "You have mastered a specialized and complex technique to ignore pain by focusing your belief on the self rather than relying on faith." OK, beyond wishing really really really hard, what?

to be fair, very often in fantasy wishing really really really hard actually work. or believing really hard.

Jay R
2019-08-25, 03:55 PM
Start small, and slowly have her build a code for herself, which grows out of her adventures.

"We got nothing out of that <fight/quest/encounter>. I'm not risking myself in another one unless I see a clear goal."

Each new principle looks like a simple lesson from experience, but the effect over time is a Lawful approach.


I once had a Flashing Blades rogue once who built up a fairly detailed code of behavior for himself, much of which was self-interest posing as morality, or vice versa. One of his tenets was, "Never steal from the poor. They have no money." Another was, "Never steal from, or betray, your companions. They know where you sleep."

[My main inspiration for these was Pappy Maverick, from the old TV show.]

Psyren
2019-08-25, 04:05 PM
Thanks, I'll ask the monk to join me in acquiring some discipline and see what happens. The worst aspect is finding an hour of the day to meditate, but that shouldn't be resented by the party.

Do it as part of breaking camp when the rest of the casters (are there other casters?) are prepping spells for the day. And it's not like you have to sit totally motionless either.

TheYell
2019-08-25, 05:54 PM
but that makes for a much better backstory. it has the potential for plot hooks and for character growth in different directions.

Thanks. I have one in play that's been approved, down the road I'll get a dragon cohort sent by the drow father to recover his daughter. The dragon is surprised to learn the concubine is now a powerful sorcerer, and will offer to help with the surface quest if the sorcerer will come back willingly.

My GM okay'ed that with the proviso that I explain why a male drow had that kind of power, so I gave him a backstory too. Once a drow wizard was tasked by his matriarch to decipher the Draconic rhymes of a powerful artifact. The wizard divined it was reciting the anagram memnonic of the true name of a vizier djinn, and stole the artifact and used the wishes on himself to set up a kingdom of his own.


Do it as part of breaking camp when the rest of the casters (are there other casters?) are prepping spells for the day. And it's not like you have to sit totally motionless either.

Interesting... had thought of zazen sitting totally motionless :P But you're right.


Start small, and slowly have her build a code for herself, which grows out of her adventures.

"We got nothing out of that <fight/quest/encounter>. I'm not risking myself in another one unless I see a clear goal."

Each new principle looks like a simple lesson from experience, but the effect over time is a Lawful approach.

Yes thank you for that advice. I should learn from every experience coming to me. In fact to avoid playing out the alignment first and playing into the alignment, I shouldn't be able to predict exactly what her code will look like...

Pauly
2019-08-25, 06:50 PM
If you look at real life and how people move from less lawful to more lawful orientations.

1) Joining an organization based on following the rules. For example, the Police, the Army, an Insurance Company. Being compelled to follow the rules and repeatedly being shown that following the rules id good and disobeying the rules is bad imprints itself on the individual.

2) An internal realization that not following the rules has lead to bad outcomes in their life. There’s a good reason why the self-help section of the bookstore is one of the biggest sections of the store. This can be done by discovery of texts.

3) Finding a mentor/hero that they admire who is more lawful. You then try to emulate that hero. Sports heroes are good examples of how this happens irl.

As an ex-slave your character would probably be super uncomfortable about joining a strict hierarchical organization.

The catalyst event you describe sounds more like self realization than mentoring. So your character may ask the monk for advice, but she will find her own path, not follow his. I’d play it a bit low key, with a definite path to finding and reading texts that connect to your character rather than relying in advice from other PCs or NPCs as to what is or is not lawful.

King of Nowhere
2019-08-25, 07:31 PM
2) There’s a good reason why the self-help section of the bookstore is one of the biggest sections of the store. This can be done by discovery of texts.


I'm now envisioning the book of clear thought as a self-help book telling the character that yes, he can do it!

Pauly
2019-08-25, 07:57 PM
I'm now envisioning the book of clear thought as a self-help book telling the character that yes, he can do it!

Maybe it is Jordan Gnomeson’s 12 Rules for Life

Vaern
2019-08-26, 12:36 AM
I'm assuming you're playing Pathfinder since googling Godless Healing turns up the Pathfinder SRD as the first result...
The Atonement spell in 3.5 and Pathfinder includes a note in the spell description stating that its ability to change alignment is explicitly intended to give the players and the DM an in-world way to allow a character to change alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively. In other words, no major character arc necessary to cross over from chaotic through neutral and into lawful territory, and you don't need to worry about your character struggling with falling back into her old ways. At the very least, if you are planning on taking steps towards lawful from chaotic, you should at least seek out a cleric to cast the spell on you to "finalize" the transition.

The alignment change version of Atonement does not necessarily involve seeking forgiveness for misdeeds that you have committed. Your character has simply realized that she is not happy with her current way of life and wishes to start over. Thus, there is no reason for the XP cost of the spell to be brought into the equation.
You're already planning on working on meditation and breathing exercises and such with your party's monk, so your active search for self-discipline should stand as enough proof that you truly want to become lawful and that you are already on that path. As such there should be no reason for the caster to insist that you go on a quest to prove yourself. This leaves the cost of the spell at a reasonable 450 gp.

TheYell
2019-08-26, 01:09 AM
The catalyst event you describe sounds more like self realization than mentoring.

Agreed.


The Atonement spell in 3.5 and Pathfinder includes a note in the spell description stating that its ability to change alignment is explicitly intended to give the players and the DM an in-world way to allow a character to change alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.

Thanks Vaern, this is a direct path to what I'm after!

I'll confer with my GM about role-playing a desire for discipline capped with an Atonement ceremony. Thanks for the good advice all

TheYell
2019-08-30, 04:09 PM
So the GM is agreeable. She says meditation on self-awareness is highly appropriate avenue to Godless Healing, since I am a psychic/rakshasa crossblood sorcerer, and the basis of psychic magic is Self-belief not the arcane bending of the weave of reality. So, not cheesy.

The monk doesn't want to be a monk anymore, so he won't be helping me train. The party as a whole is agreeable, except the kitsune is sad I won't help her steal things. She'll just do it behind my back.

Since I am godless I'll look for a druid of 9th level to cast Atonement as witnessing some sort of oathtaking by my sorcerer.