Quivering Palm - Ki cost

[Bannan_mantis]

The monk is overall a pretty balanced class with big strengths but big weaknesses and some good subclass choices which has led me to enjoy it. But as I say this there is something I have a problem with and that's the open hand monk's capstone and more specifically it's ki cost.

For the most part it seems ok, it's a powerful ability that you do replace your action with but offers really good damage and the enjoyment of using it is obvious since you get to literally 'emui wa wa shindeiru' your enemies but I have a problem and that is the cost. A epic ability like this which will probably have a DC 18-19 con save since you're 17th level and your wisdom is most likely 18 or 20 at this point and either kills or deals 10d10 necrotic damage only costs 3 ki points, 3. You get ki points on short rests and when you use the 2.5 short rests per day rule from the DMG then that meants, at 18th level, a monk has the ability to use this 15 times per day which I don't think needs explaining on it's power.

That small of a cost for something that contends with spells of at least 7th level and at most 9th is completely busted in my opinion. Being able to use it that much changes this from a short lived but powerful attack to something the monk can almost spam in a fight. Overall I find it way to cheap to be used but there might be something I'm missing so to be sure I'd like to check if I'm missing something. What do other people feel on this? Is this as op as I feel it is or is it more balanced than I realise.

Also just a quick note: I understand that this is only at high levels and rare but I don't feel that's a good excuse for something to be OP even if it's only used in a small amount of games. Also when you do get to those high levels in games balance is still important.

[diplomancer]

It takes 2 rounds to make it work, though, and that's a pretty high cost in a combat, enough that it's not really spamable.
55 damage in a round (which is the average if the saving throw suceeds, which I suppose is more often than not, most high tier monsters have very strong Con saves, AND legendary resistance on top of it) is not great damage at that level.

Also, at 2.5 short rests the monk could do it 21 times (he would have 63 ki points on average), but that's a point for your argument ;)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

That sounds ok for the level.

10d10 isn't a lot.
Monk don't get DC boosters like the warlock(+3 from RoTPK and +2 from Rub of the magi +2 from a staff of I forgot the name) or other casters (same without the rod).

[ProsecutorGodot]

In a white room situation where all they're using is quivering palm 3 ki points might seem like a low investment.

At the time that they receive the ability to use Quivering Palm they have 17 ki points per rest. Between Flurry of Blows (1 Ki point) which they can be expected to use often, Stunning Strike (1 Ki point) which they can use up to 4 times on a turn and Patient Defense/Step of the Wind (1 Ki point) which both will see some use at higher levels where monks, being a d8 class, might need to take extra precautions to not be hit you can expect them to be using Ki points frequently.

If your worry is that they'll be using Quivering Palm regularly, on a reasonably built boss monster at that level they're very likely going to be using as many as 8 Ki points in one turn (4 Stunning Strikes, Flurry of Blows and Quivering Palm) with their follow up turn possibly using another when they reactivate Quivering Palm and use Patient Defense if it fails.

The most worrying maneuver that they can muster will take almost half of their Ki points, and that's only when we assume they went straight from resting to an encounter worth spending so much on. Their ki point costs add up and Quivering Palm, while potent, is more of a win more move in my eyes than an issue. It's likely a waste of resources against enemies who would fail more often than not and it's probably never going to instakill an enemy worth using it on where simply punching them two rounds in a row was insufficient.

It's fun, I like it.

[stoutstien]

The biggest thing is the action cost. Trading all your attacks for quivering palm is a hard choice sometimes.

[Trickery]

The biggest thing is the action cost. Trading all your attacks for quivering palm is a hard choice sometimes.

An extraordinarily hard choice, I wager. Quivering Palm is a constitution save, same as stunning strike. A monk could instead make up to 4 SS's for up to 5 ki points, which is also a constition save. Four CON saves is equivalent to having quadruple disadvantage on one. It's much more of a sure thing, particularly if legendary resistance is involved. And, in group play against a boss, landing a stun on the boss for just two rounds is pretty much a death sentence.

SS flurry also comes with immediate damage, and that's something.

So SS spam seems like a better choice in most contexts. There are some pretty interesting scenarios where an Open Hand Monk could use QP, such as after sneaking up on a succeptible target or in social situations.

So I reckon it's a pretty good ability.

[Protolisk]

To use Quivering palm, one must also Hit their target. So on your first turn, you must dedicate at least 1 attack to the enemy you are trying to damage, though if it's as big a threat that needs 10d10, you are likely attacking it more than just once, because you'll probably miss a few. So you must spend 1 action to attempt to hit the target, actually hit the target, then spend an additional 3 ki points, and then the next turn give up all your attacks do deal 10d10, or maybe kill them instantly but most big bad guys who would necessitate Quivering Palm would probably succeed the save.

We are level 17, so assuming Dex is 20:

Over 2 turns just spending 3 ki points, you can deal a total of 13d10+15, and if you are lucky instant death. Not shabby, average damage is 86.5

The same Open Hand monk could also spend 3 ki points over 2 turns by flurrying twice, which means 4 attacks over those 2 turns get free dex saves to knock prone which might give you advantage on additional hits, as well as spending a third ki point on stunning strike with is just about the hardest CC maneuver next to actual death. Total damage comes to 8d10+40, or an average of 84 damage, with a save for stun and four saves for prone.

To-hit chances are negligible because this is the exact same monk with the same attack bonus. Quivering Palm will have an edge because the 10d10 is guaranteed as long as a single attack makes it, while the Flurry monk builds his own advantage which makes it easier to hit, while also helping out the party. Still, 86.5 compared to 84 for the same ki expenditure. Is it really all that strong?

Granted, you could also flurry on that first turn for Quivering Palm for an additional 1d10+5 and 2 dex saves for prone, but that same ki point could just as easily be another con save for stunning for the flurrying monk.

Looks balanced enough for me. I see nothing overpowered here.

[stoutstien]

I think a lot of people seeing is overpowered because there's so few save or die effects in the game (which is a good thing in my opinion) it stands out. I like how they gave it to the Monk but I do wish it was a core monk feature.

[LudicSavant]

It takes 2 rounds to make it work, though
There are a number of ways to get around this.

For example: You can use Haste on the Monk to get an attack action, which can also trigger flurry of blows. More importantly, it leaves their "real" action free to trigger Quivering Palm. You can also start the vibrations off of a reaction attack, such as an OA, Commander's Strike, or the Order Cleric's Voice of Authority.