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Benejeseret
2007-10-12, 03:57 PM
Half-Minotaur Template:

Grants +4str, +2con, +2wis, -2int +2NA plus other abilities for +1 Level Ajustment

BUT, then it says applied to medium creatures it increases their size to large adding +10 movement and all stat increases appropriate for a size increase

For a human/minotaur templated PC, what is the size adjustment?

By monster advancement table it should be
Medium->Large +8str -2dex +4con +2NA -1to hit/AC


Does this mean a template PC human/minotaur has
+12str, -2dex, +6con, +2wis, -2int, +4NA and a LARGE size all for just +1level adjustment?

Or do PC's not get the size increase....and in that case why not?

TK-Squared
2007-10-12, 04:14 PM
Yes, you do get all that for LA +1.

You can also take this template if you're large and you get it for nothing but CR +1, I believe. - No, sorry, that's only a Half-Ogre template.

Tyger
2007-10-12, 05:20 PM
Half-Minotaur Template:

Grants +4str, +2con, +2wis, -2int +2NA plus other abilities for +1 Level Ajustment

BUT, then it says applied to medium creatures it increases their size to large adding +10 movement and all stat increases appropriate for a size increase

For a human/minotaur templated PC, what is the size adjustment?

By monster advancement table it should be
Medium->Large +8str -2dex +4con +2NA -1to hit/AC


Does this mean a template PC human/minotaur has
+12str, -2dex, +6con, +2wis, -2int, +4NA and a LARGE size all for just +1level adjustment?

Or do PC's not get the size increase....and in that case why not?

I seem to recall (away from my books at the moment) that if the size increases, then the LA goes from +1 to +2. Can anyone confirm?

Amiria
2007-10-12, 05:25 PM
No idea, but even at +2 it seems vastly overpowered compared to the +2 LA half ogre in Races of Destiny.

Kaelik
2007-10-12, 07:09 PM
No idea, but even at +2 it seems vastly overpowered compared to the +2 LA half ogre in Races of Destiny.

The problem is it only exists in Dragon Magazine. And the Races of Destiny is scaled up from the +1 LA in Savage Species.

From most poorly balanced source to least that goes:

Dragon>Savage Species>Races Series.

It's not that Dragon has to be broken, just that they put no work into balancing it, so you can get anywhere from +4Str -2Cha as +1 LA to +800 billion Str, and Huge size, and Finger of Death at will.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-12, 07:18 PM
I seem to recall (away from my books at the moment) that if the size increases, then the LA goes from +1 to +2. Can anyone confirm?

Yes, it does increase the LA, but that's still very powerful. But I thought you only get +2 str, -2 dex, +2 con, +2 nat armor for medium to large.

Armads
2007-10-12, 07:22 PM
And that's why it's called one of the more broken templates around, along with White Dragonspawn (LA +1, adds +7 natural armor, and +1 level of sorcerer casting? What..The..Heck?) and Feral.



Dragon>Savage Species>Races Series.

I would actually put it like
Dragon > Savage Species > Complete Champion > Races Series, starting with Races of Destiny and ending with Races of the Wild.

Chronos
2007-10-12, 07:34 PM
(LA +1, adds +7 natural armor, and +1 level of sorcerer casting? What..The..Heck?)Wait, so there's actually an LA template which doesn't hurt a full caster? You could even buy that off quickly, if you're using those rules, for a free boost to casting!

Arbitrarity
2007-10-12, 08:32 PM
Wait, so there's actually an LA template which doesn't hurt a full caster? You could even buy that off quickly, if you're using those rules, for a free boost to casting!

Hey! Add in the kobold Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and we have a kobold with +2 levels of sorc casting, i.e. advancing faster than a wizard!

Miraqariftsky
2007-10-13, 02:01 AM
Excuse me for the off-tangentness, but HOW in bleeding blazes does a character become a half-minotaur IC? :smalleek:

herrhauptmann
2007-10-13, 02:15 AM
PHB2 actually offers a few suggestions on rebuilding a character. Starting from redistributing skill points, to feat selection to stats all the way to class levels and race. With ideas on how to quest for the last one in game.

Hannes
2007-10-13, 02:22 AM
At character creation.

Benejeseret
2007-10-13, 01:36 PM
IC, here is how it happened.

She (female player and character) was a nun (cleric) who was part of a church in a small rural community.

One day while out milking the cows, she was bit by a black and white dairy cow.

That bovine was in fact a demonic, chaotic, extraplanar were-cow.

Basically we are using the half-minotaur template as if she was a were-cow without the shapechanging abilities etc. Now she follows this demon as her god and is a cleric in its name....a 9 foot tall walking dairy cow beast of a cleric.

And did I mention she was the Rage Cleric varient?

Ya, so in our first combat last night she rages, charges, and with her large greataxe does +11 to hit 3d6+16 damage (plus a 1d8+16 gore attack in a full round) ....all at level 2 ecl based on a +1 level adjustment.

Hence the question, does the half-minotaur template with a size increase come at only a +1 adjustment?

And, what is the proper size adjustment for a PC going medium to large?

Fhaolan
2007-10-13, 02:01 PM
One day while out milking the cows, she was bit by a black and white dairy cow.

That bovine was in fact a demonic, chaotic, extraplanar were-cow.


I was going to post something, but I just can't top this right now.

Were-cow.

My players are going to be so *pissed* at you, you know that, right?

UserClone
2007-10-13, 02:11 PM
I once made a character who was a Savage Species Half-Ogre with the Half-Minotaur and Feral Templates. wOOt!

Note: he was NOT a Wizard!:smallwink:

Quietus
2007-10-13, 02:21 PM
I once made a character who was a Savage Species Half-Ogre with the Half-Minotaur and Feral Templates. wOOt!

Note: he was NOT a Wizard!:smallwink:

He should've been, just ask anyone, wizards are OMGPOWERFULZZ

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-10-13, 02:28 PM
Does this mean a template PC human/minotaur has
+12str, -2dex, +6con, +2wis, -2int, +4NA and a LARGE size all for just +1level adjustment?

Or do PC's not get the size increase....and in that case why not?
Generally, those modifiers only apply to size increases due to advancement by racial hit dice. But if the template actually says a character gets "all stat increases appropriate for a size increase," then it seems they do apply in this case.

This is from... Dragon #313, right? I'll have to dig that out and take a closer look.

Benejeseret
2007-10-13, 04:27 PM
From Crystal Keep

Half-Minotaur
(DR313 p94)

Gain Feat: Track, Natural Armor +2, Str +4, Con +2, Int 2, Wis +2
Lvl +1
if size increases, CR +1

If the Base Creature was of Small or Medium size, its size is
increased by one category, with all the appropriate changes to its
ability scores, etc., plus a +10 improvement to base movement.
These changes are in addition to the bonuses and penalties listed.

Darkvision 60,Gain the Scent ability,+2 Racial bonus on Search, Spot, & Listen checks,Gain a Damage Category 6 Gore attack,+4 bonus on checks to escape a Maze spell & always know which direction is North



So,

1) It seems that you can give this template to a large monster, gain the extra attack (gore) and stat boosts without needing to increase CR so long as size does not change.

2) On the flip-side, a PC with the template gets it for +1 level adjustment but it implies that increasing in size is free.

The base template seems ok if not a little overpowered, net boost of +6 to stats, 2 free feats (track/scent) and a natural attack.

But the "all the appropriate changes" is the issue for a size increase. If it worked like Enlarge Person (+2 bonuses) it might be OK.

However, the only rules I can find for flat out size increases is the monster advancement table. And this adds an additional net +10 stats, extra reach, and extra NA.



So how about a poll:

Vote:

A) enlarging a PC's base size follows monster advances of +8 str, +4con, -2 dex, +2 NA, -2 AC/Hit, increased reach

or

B) enlarging a PC's base size follows as in an Enlarge Person Spell +2 Str, -2 Dex, and a -1 attack rolls and AC, increased reach

C) It follows some other table I have yet to find.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-10-14, 08:30 AM
A) enlarging a PC's base size follows monster advances of +8 str, +4con, -2 dex, +2 NA, -2 AC/Hit, increased reach

or

B) enlarging a PC's base size follows as in an Enlarge Person Spell +2 Str, -2 Dex, and a -1 attack rolls and AC, increased reach

C) It follows some other table I have yet to find.
Enlarge person is a specific spell effect. It would only apply if the spell is explicitly referenced.

There is no other table referring to size increases.

The table referenced in option A is meant to be used for size increases due to creature advancement by racial hit dice, which adding a template most resembles. Of the options you listed, this is really the only viable one.

The only other option to consider is "D) The reference is a misprint as there are no generic ability increases for changing size and the current table does not apply."

Though, to tell the truth, the text around the table only mentions size increases due to additional racial hit dice. That does leave room for expanded uses of the table in future rules. Though such an expansion should really mention the table explicitly.

As to the LA:

Yeah, it seems they underdid the LA. Size increase is +1 on its own. Unbalanced ability adjustments are also +1 LA. And these scores are so unbalanced that I don't think we you can just sweep them under the rug.

The biggest problem I have with the LA guidelines is that there are no hints as to when unbalanced ability adjustments should add more than +1 LA. So we can tell that +2 to three scores is a weak +1. But we then have to spend the extra time to figure out how much more +10 to every score should be without any guidelines to use as a starting place.

why123
2007-11-07, 01:05 AM
No idea, but even at +2 it seems vastly overpowered compared to the +2 LA half ogre in Races of Destiny.

Magdela
2010-12-26, 10:58 PM
It actually plays as LA + 3 since it has 2 racial hit dice which you don't get to level up because of.

Thousand apologies, forgot this was a closed thread. Accidental necromancy.

Vaynor
2010-12-27, 02:02 AM
The Red Towel: Thread necromancy.