pathfinder character help

[ShadowedSavage]

moved this over to this board now that I know where its supposed to be


So recently I've started in the emerald spire. We are level 3 so far but I am planning ahead due to our DM having us level mid session whenever we reach the next XP threshold(like a video game)

Nathaniel Knight, human, antipaladin(insinuator)/4, Bloodrager(blood conduit)/1, Hell knight/10, fighter/5
Feats:
1/ power attack
human(1)/ hurtful
3/intimidating prowess

insinuator(4)/squire
5/???
Blood conduit(5)/improved grapple
7/cornugan smash
9/improved critical
11/???
13/???
15/???
fighter(16)/???
17/??
fighter(17)/???
19/???
fighter(19)/???


you can probably see where this is going- a big man with a big mouth who intimidates in combat. I know some people think builds like this are a little lacking later in levels due to it not being explicitly stated that intimidation is or is not a mind affecting effect, but my DM has already ruled that it works on pretty much anything that can comprehend me being intimidating.

other information:
I'm not 100% on bloodrager or the archetype but i for sure know that i don't need fast movement and as for bloodline i would go infernal.
i am however 100% on not taking 5th level in Insinuator as the ability gained that level is pretty weak and doesn't fit my character much.
i know for sure that i can join the hell knights and that i want too
as for the last 5 levels(DM has assured me that as long as the group stays together that long we will be playing after the spire) im not too sure on what to take so i just slapped on figher because, i mean, feats.

as for how optimized it needs to be, im ok with sacrificing a bit of power for style points
the party is as follows: me, paladin,wizard,sorceror,cleric if that helps

[Psyren]

I know some people think builds like this are a little lacking later in levels due to it not being explicitly stated that intimidation is or is not a mind affecting effect, but my DM has already ruled that it works on pretty much anything that can comprehend me being intimidating.

It is explicit actually: Intimidate is a mind-affecting fear effect. (https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9svt)

With that said, it's much easier to pump a skill check out of ability or saving throw range, so Intimidate is still a good strategy for a martial build to invest in even with a good chunk of high-level foes being immune. Evil campaigns in particular usually don't have to deal with some of the more dangerous mind-affecting-immune enemy types like undead, oozes, or vermin that good characters would have to worry about.

As for your build - could you clarify what it is you're trying to get out of each class? What do you want from the 4 insinuator levels? If all you want from Bloodrager is the bloodline you can get that from feats. Which Hellknight Disciplines/Order are you going for? What's Fighter for? etc.

[ShadowedSavage]

It is explicit actually: Intimidate is a mind-affecting fear effect.

well that's an oof, guess I'll have to say something to my dm, don't want to be cheating



Evil campaigns in particular usually don't have to deal with some of the more dangerous mind-affecting-immune enemy types like undead, oozes, or vermin that good characters would have to worry about.

surprisingly this is a (mostly) good campaign and the paladin has been pretty against me being there from the beginning, but the DM wrote me in as a hell knight in training, and as a part of the emerald spire you have to pay the hell knights some money to go adventuring into the spire, so as a way to get me in he had the leader of the hell knights waive the fee if they took me with them. its worked so far as my character is lawful evil and mostly operates as if he were lawful neutral due to having to follow his outsider of the day from insinuator.



As for your build - could you clarify what it is you're trying to get out of each class? What do you want from the 4 insinuator levels? If all you want from Bloodrager is the bloodline you can get that from feats. Which Hellknight Disciplines/Order are you going for? What's Fighter for? etc.

i choose insinuator as it had good flavor from what i wanted in the character. When I first started making him i based him off the pretty basic ideology of "power equals strength, and if you cant protect yourself from me i deserve to be above you." hes pretty obsessed with gaining social power but only when he can do it lawfully, that way it cant get taken from him without underhanded methods. insinuator allows him to choose what higher power he draws from daily and with less restrictions. i wanted 4 levels specifically because i get my second smite and self healing die that level, but i definitely don't want the power at 5th, so i was looking into a one level dip at 5 before i start hell knight. bloodrager with the infernal bloodline seemed pretty good mechanically because i would get bloodrager and a free feat from the archetype, flavor wise i liked the thought of having a connection to hell before joining the hell knights, also my character has on multiple occasions been rp'd as a bit wild in combat, so i figured bloodrage would give it a mechanical reason. as for being a hell knight he sees them as a pretty easy starting point to put himself above most normal people- i mean, hell, a commoner seeing hell knight plate would probably **** themselves if they weren't used to seeing them. im pretty restricted on orders because the hell knights at the city are only from 2 orders- the pike and the nail. i was probably going to go with the pike as hes had good rp with some of the knights from that order.

as for fighter i just kinda slapped that on because i didn't know what else to take and was kinda hoping someone could help

[Psyren]

well that's an oof, guess I'll have to say something to my dm, don't want to be cheating

If you were a normal antipaladin it wouldn't matter as much, but I wanted to point it out since Insinuators can't break through fear immunity like normal ones can. For anything that's not immune though, you do impose a penalty to their save.



i choose insinuator as it had good flavor from what i wanted in the character. When I first started making him i based him off the pretty basic ideology of "power equals strength, and if you cant protect yourself from me i deserve to be above you." hes pretty obsessed with gaining social power but only when he can do it lawfully, that way it cant get taken from him without underhanded methods.

Understood - well if you want a Lawful Evil antipaladin then Insinuator is basically your only option, so I'm glad it fits your concept too.

I'm also glad you clarified that second bit because "might makes right" is usually closer to CE than LE.



i wanted 4 levels specifically because i get my second smite and self healing die that level, but i definitely don't want the power at 5th, so i was looking into a one level dip at 5 before i start hell knight. bloodrager with the infernal bloodline seemed pretty good mechanically because i would get bloodrager and a free feat from the archetype, flavor wise i liked the thought of having a connection to hell before joining the hell knights, also my character has on multiple occasions been rp'd as a bit wild in combat, so i figured bloodrage would give it a mechanical reason.

What race are you? A Tiefling, particularly a Kyton-Spawn (+Con/Cha, -Wis) would give you a tie to Hell without needing to waste one of your levels on a dip purely for flavor reasons. Alternatively if you'd rather be a different race or your race is already set, you can still get the Infernal Bloodline via the Eldritch Heritage feat line, and the Bloodrager version with Raging Blood if you really want that.


as for being a hell knight he sees them as a pretty easy starting point to put himself above most normal people- i mean, hell, a commoner seeing hell knight plate would probably **** themselves if they weren't used to seeing them. im pretty restricted on orders because the hell knights at the city are only from 2 orders- the pike and the nail. i was probably going to go with the pike as hes had good rp with some of the knights from that order.

All right; here are some good disciplines to go with your concept. Your first one must be specific to your order (Nail or Pike - note that Pike is considered equivalent to Scourge when it comes to picking powers, boons etc.) and the other two can be from the "Any" category.

Nail's specific power is Onslaught which is kinda meh - yeah +4 Str and +10 move (both untyped) as a free action 3/day are nice since they stack with everything and don't interfere with your actions, but both only last for a round. Pike/Scourge gives you permanent LLV and lets you see through 5ft walls and doors for up to a minute per use. Which of those is more useful is going to be very campaign-dependent, but personally I would save your uses for the more useful "Any order" powers that I'll list below.

Fearsomeness: As an intimidate-focused build this lets you jump straight to Frightened, and the targets will be within your Aura of Cowardice.
Versatile Intimidation: If you party doesn't already have a face, you can take that role!
Command: Greater Command 3/day as a SLA is a pretty good opener in most fights and even has some non-combat uses.
Mental Intrusion: Need to metagame quickly in a tough fight, in a social situation or while scouting? You can do it without a word or gesture.
Shadow Step: Can get you out of tight situations, and note that it doesn't count as a teleportation effect. By RAW it doesn't require you to have seen where you're going either, which can have interesting implications.


as for fighter i just kinda slapped that on because i didn't know what else to take and was kinda hoping someone could help

Honestly I would probably go for more Antipaladin. You still get bonus combat feats that way but more stuff too, like more Greeds and Smites.

The build I'd probably end up with is LE Insinuator 5/Hellknight 9/Insinuator +6. (The Hellknight capstone is kinda meh imo - Insinuator 11 meanwhile gives you an advanced servant and Aura of Glory.

[ShadowedSavage]

What race are you?

we're already 3 levels in so im stuck human



A Tiefling, particularly a Kyton-Spawn (+Con/Cha, -Wis) would give you a tie to Hell without needing to waste one of your levels on a dip purely for flavor reasons

as for bloodrager as a whole, i choose that because i figured a one level dip giving me bloodrage and a free(though limited)feat was stronger than a one combat long buff to my weapon/ a pretty weak servant(considering i wont be leveling in it for 9-10 levels) i would be open to other suggestions for dips that level but that is the best i could find.



Honestly I would probably go for more Antipaladin. You still get bonus combat feats that way but more stuff too, like more Greeds and Smites.

im not sold on this either considering the smites ill be getting are still the weaker insinuator ones. theres gotta be something else i can throw on for 5-6 levels that is stronger than that.

[Dekion]

How about the Antipaladin Tyrant Archetype instead of Insinuator. Lawful evil and then only things it changes about the base class are the code, switching to Diplomacy from Ride as a class skill, and requiring your fiendish servant (if you choose that boon) to have the lawful and evil subtypes. Given your focus on intimidation and possible issues with fear immunity, the Tyrant retains the core Antipaladin's ability to overcome that immunity.

[ShadowedSavage]

i looked into it, but seeing as we are almost exclusively fighting things that are evil/neutral im glad i didnt as it would have severely limited my smite targets

[TheFamilarRaven]

i looked into it, but seeing as we are almost exclusively fighting things that are evil/neutral im glad i didnt as it would have severely limited my smite targets

I responded to the thread you posted in the Roleplaying section of the forum... I'll repost it here in case you missed it. But you probably saw it.


Welcome to the forum! Just so you're aware, there is a specific subforum for Pathfinder related posts. I mod may come and move this to the appropriate subforum soon enough.

To answer your question. If you want to be as intimidating as possible and want to play an evil aligned character and a Hellknight, I'd recommend the following.

3 levels of anti-paladin (tyrant)
-This let's you be Lawful evil so you qualify for the Hellknight prestige class. Insinuator lets your smite affect a wider variety of targets (anyone not matching a chosen alignment vs only good creatures), however, it's also noticeably weaker than the base smite ability, and since you're not sticking with anti-paladin all the way to 20, you might as well not have that ability in the first place as it won't scale with HellKnight. Plus Hellknight gets their own smite ability.

However, as a tyrant you get access to Aura of cowardice, which provides a better penalty to resist fear effects vs aura of ego. Also, aura of cowardice removes a creature's immunity to fear. This is 100% vital to make an intimidation build work.

From this point on, you could stick with Anti-paladin until level 5. Or multiclass into fighter, cavalier, bloodrager. What ever class suits your fancy. Fighter would net you some bonus feats so you're not so feat starved from all the intimidation feats you'll need.

Speaking of which: Pick up these feats

Power Attack (1)
Hurtful (human) basically a free attack when combined with cornugon smash.
Intimidating prowess (3)
Soulless Gaze (5)
Fiendskin (7) this now lets you inflict the Frightened condition with your demoralize checks.
Cornugon Smash (9)


That being said, I repeat what I said in the other thread. With insinuator you lose access to Aura of Cowardice, which removes immunity to fear from target within 10ft. Since you mentioned that you wanted to focus on being the most intimidating thing around, this ability is basically a must have.

The ability to Smite multiple alignment types of alignment from Insinuator won't really mean anything. All in all, if you stick with insinuator for only for levels, that equals +2 (or +4 against the right target) damage to the target of your smite and CHA bonus to attack. That won't mean much in the long run. Plus, you'll only have that ability twice per day. The main draw of the archetype might mean it's easier to qualify for Damnation feats, since it explicitly lets you attune with an outsider so flavor-wise it should fulfill the damnation prerequisites.