Beating an Optimized Planar Shepherd

[StevenC21]

I realize this is an exceptionally tall order. But a friend of mine insists that a Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 with a Slow/No Time plane can beat any Level 20 Arcane (or Divine) caster. He thinks he will win against anything except Pun Pun.

I, on the other hand, believe that nothing beats an Optimized Wizard (preferably with PrC's). Anyway, I was wondering what builds might be the best for demonstrating both the flexibility & power of a Wiz + PrC's 20?

One of my personal favorites involves hanging out on a No Time Genesis Demiplane and sending legions of AMF Clerics to disable the Shepherd (Planar Bubble is Su). But I would like to see your creations!

[Endarire]

I'd like to know more about the breakdown of each build.

[StevenC21]

The Planar Shepherd is a Human Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10. He's chosen a Demiplane providing 100:1 action ratio in his favor thanks to his Planar Bubble.

His animal companion is a Fleshraker Dinosaur, and his custom plane has some native Demons.

I can go more in depth if needed.

The wizards build is entirely up to you. :)

[Trandir]

Mmmmmmmh how about a simple save or die? If you win the initiative the druid has one ST or dies everyone could do this with a build built just for that one spell


My take would be a rogue/other class with lot of dex that wins initiative, puts antimagic shacles on the druid and uses a poison that damages intelligence on the animal companion and bam it is over.

Or since the bubble last on concentration+10 rounts up to 1 hour he can't actually cast more than 10 spells with his little trick and the animal companion usually has no ranged attack. If you consider that in the plan of Idonotrememberhisname the times flows with a ratio of 100:1 all of his spells would trigger almost simultaneusly once the spell exits the bubble so if a character could somehow fool the druid 3 times he could make him consume oll of the bubbles.


If this one summons monsters and that monster puts his head outside the bubble I'd say that the 100× pressure would kill almost anything vulnerable to crits so the elementals are fine and also the go to summon at lv 20 so if he actually manages to open one you probably die.

An ur priest that win initiative can steal the bubble and that turn the table.

Also it is worth considering: is it just a 1v1 fight arena style with preparation or with no preparation? A druid whitout his morning buff routine is far weaker than the buffed one.

Speaking in realistic terms if you could push part of the druid out of the bubble he would just die there

[Asmotherion]

Depending on Optimisation Level Dimensional Anchor/Loc and Celerity line of spells (together with imunity to daze) should be enough to give him a very hard time. Add Time stop (persisted) and Shapechange (Nagahydra/Chronotyrin) to the mix if you're extra worried.

Otherwise study a Wizard or Sorcerer guide for some basics.

[arkangel111]

Beat time with time. You dont even need Prc to beat the druid unfortunately. A simple astral projection, from a fast moving plane and then plane shift to the fight (it doesn't even need to be that fast honestly just fast enough to get 3-4 days to his 1 ought to be enough). then just wear him down, even if you get the fight wrong the first time come back again 1 hr later. don't let him rest. Your effectively immortal despite how many times someone kills you. burn through his spells, and concentrate on counterspells the first few fights just to laugh at him when you come back with a full selection of spells and full life.

Both of you can shapechange, both of you can cast spells. you really just need to let him blow his spells the first few fights so you can comeback and stomp him in the end. Your biggest challenge will be dealing with the gloating every time you come back, just play the long game and you'll have him. to ensure his destruction get on a plane 1:100. I guarantee he cant fight you 100 times and win with his resources depleting rapidly. plus it would be kinda hilarious to watch him kill you so many times and you just stand there nonchalantly not even putting up a fight. Once he blows his spells he's a weak fighter in a better body...

[Crake]

A selective antimagic field will completely cut off his ability to use any of his abilities, then you just cast spells at him until he dies, the end

[The Glyphstone]

Beat time with time. You dont even need Prc to beat the druid unfortunately. A simple astral projection, from a fast moving plane and then plane shift to the fight (it doesn't even need to be that fast honestly just fast enough to get 3-4 days to his 1 ought to be enough). then just wear him down, even if you get the fight wrong the first time come back again 1 hr later. don't let him rest. Your effectively immortal despite how many times someone kills you. burn through his spells, and concentrate on counterspells the first few fights just to laugh at him when you come back with a full selection of spells and full life.

Both of you can shapechange, both of you can cast spells. you really just need to let him blow his spells the first few fights so you can comeback and stomp him in the end. Your biggest challenge will be dealing with the gloating every time you come back, just play the long game and you'll have him. to ensure his destruction get on a plane 1:100. I guarantee he cant fight you 100 times and win with his resources depleting rapidly. plus it would be kinda hilarious to watch him kill you so many times and you just stand there nonchalantly not even putting up a fight. Once he blows his spells he's a weak fighter in a better body...

Basically. If he's got a 100:1 plane, Genesis yourself a 1000:1 plane. All he can do is, theoretically, find a plane that suits him, while you can just make them to order as necessary.

[Asmotherion]

Basically. If he's got a 100:1 plane, Genesis yourself a 1000:1 plane. All he can do is, theoretically, find a plane that suits him, while you can just make them to order as necessary.

Or get an insect native from that demiplane and cast Planar Bubble (the spell) on it. That should be hillarious! XD

[Crake]

Are we all missing out the fact that the planar shepherd's bubble lasts concentration (hours/level) plus 1d10 rounds after he stops concentrating? So 100:1, 1000:1, infinity:1, the druid will only ever get 1d10 standard actions ontop of the wizard for each use of the planar bubble he uses, and he only gets 3 uses. A single contingent spell each to bait out the three uses, and the druid's left with no real advantage. This doubly becomes an issue for the druid because even if they spend infinite time in their planar bubble, they only reprepare spells and gain back daily abilities when the material plane's time reaches a certain point, so they can't even use the planar bubble to refresh their own abilities.

This is also assuming that the druid specifically keeps the wizard out of his own planar bubble, should the wizard ever get close enough to enter the planar bubble (say, by having a craft contingent spell to teleport him into the time-sped planar bubble if he's ever in the presence of one), the initiatives would then proceed as normal, and the wizard could even throw in a celerity or two to get the jump on the druid in that circumstance.

[druid91]

Cast Teleport through time (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b), then kill them as a baby before they have any class features.

You have an 85% chance of successfully teleporting into the past to murder them, which should be a relatively easy feat given they'd be a baby and there's not much to be done to stop you.

[Buufreak]

A selective antimagic field will completely cut off his ability to use any of his abilities, then you just cast spells at him until he dies, the end

I am a fan of this idea.

I've also been a big fan of microcosm. A half decent wilder 20 (assuming we are playing same levels) is just a single power away from placing the druid in his own little fantasy world until the end of his natural life, in which he thinks he won. Meanwhile, in the real world, he is in a vegetative state.

Pretty much the same as a save or die, except an extra flare of snark for him walking around with something he thinks is unstoppable that essentially boils down to a bs pile of homebrew.

[Crake]

I mean, the other thing the wizard can do is just hit the druid with two negative levels and then proceed to cast greater planar binding and force the druid into doing whatever he wants, since the druid's gone and outsider-ified himself.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Contingency: When I perceive an opponent doing a thing, Teleport me behind them. That thing can be ending his turn after he's activated the planar bubble, so his turn is over and you're in the same time stream as he is. He spent a standard action to activate the planar bubble, he could have used a swift action and a move action afterward, but it's basically your turn and you're on equal action economy as you're both in the planar bubble. Take Martial Study a few times for Iron Heart Surge and you can automatically end the bubble, he can only use it 1/day after all.

[magic9mushroom]

stuff

Wizard 1/Cleric 4/Tainted Scholar 2/Cleric +3/Mystic Theurge 10 with a domain that gives Foresight.

Celerity is not on the Druid list, so you go first.

Implosion with DC 54 is pretty easily achievable (10 base + 9 level + 35 from 70 corruption). Druid needs a nat 20 to avoid dying and there is no immunity to Implosion.

Psion infinite-action infinite-PP loops are fun too.

And there's always Wish/Gate loops. Wish can teleport anyone from anywhere to anywhere; with an infinite supply of them you can keep going (from safety) until he fails his save and is teleported into the sun. Downside there is that, while it's generally not compatible with a fast-time plane, a Planar Shepherd can wildshape into an outsider and access SLA Wish so he's potentially better at this than you. This is one of the "you both have unlimited power, duel is badly defined" cases.

[Seto]

It sounds like he's already built his character, and you're tailoring your build specifically to win in a fight against him? That doesn't sound like a fair fight.
On the other hand, if he's boasting that "the build I made is so good, nothing could counter it, not even a build made specifically to defeat me", I get it.

[StevenC21]

He claims that the Planar Shepherd's power is a complete superset of the Wizards. That the Shepherd can do everything the Wizard can do, and more. He claimed that by this the Shepherd is unbeatable by anything but Pun Pun.

Let's all ignore the fact that it's entirely possible for most wizards to become Pun Pun...

[druid91]

He claims that the Planar Shepherd's power is a complete superset of the Wizards. That the Shepherd can do everything the Wizard can do, and more. He claimed that by this the Shepherd is unbeatable by anything but Pun Pun.

Let's all ignore the fact that it's entirely possible for most wizards to become Pun Pun...

Thing is, that's utter bull. Yes, Druids are fairly powerful. Planar Shepherd's stack onto that one really nasty trick.

What they are not is the endless bag of tricks that Wizards are.

[StevenC21]

He claimed that it was really easy for a Druid to get full access to the Wizard spell list. I don't know how. Is that even possible?

[JNAProductions]

He claimed that it was really easy for a Druid to get full access to the Wizard spell list. I don't know how. Is that even possible?

Probably. It is 3.5, after all.

But easy? I find THAT unlikely.

[Silvercrys]

I am not currently aware of any way to add Sorcerer/Wizard spells to the Druid spell list without shenanigans like taking levels of Geomancer on a cohort and claiming that its class features allow it to teach you Wizard spells and put them on your Druid list or something. That's not allowed by RAW but it's the only thing I can even conceive of someone thinking that could do that since I ~think it works for a Wizard to add Druid spells to their spellbook.

I would definitely be interested in learning this power, though.

But for the record, even if he could add the full sorc/wiz list to the Druid and keep his build Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10, he doesn't actually have more power than a Wizard 20, he just has a couple alternate paths to the same power as Wizard 20. He can Wildshape and Shapechange, but he only gets one at a time, and you can still Shapechange. He can use a fast time bubble and use Genesis to create a fast time plane to Astral Project from, but you can Genesis and Astral Project from a plane just as fast as his and use shenanigans like prebuffing Antimagic Field with your 5ft square excluded then using Celerity -> Quickened Dimension Door to get rid of or otherwise obviate his bubble.

Teleport through Time probably doesn't work since a level 20 character's presence is probably a great event that you can't alter during the duration, but there are some time travel tricks you can use like a modified version of Ye Olde Dream of Metal (requires a Psion or Erudite cohort if you have to be a Wizard).

Heck, get a Thoughtbottle and make a few Ice Assassins of the Druid. See how he fairs against like 5 perfect duplicates of himself bent entirely on his destruction plus a level 20 Wizard. You can even just make one and stand in your Ice Assassin's bubble just to negate the advantage he gets from his, then Celerity -> Imprisonment or Wish him to death for style points.

[Snowbluff]

He claimed that it was really easy for a Druid to get full access to the Wizard spell list. I don't know how. Is that even possible?

Probably the whole of the meaningful wizard spell list is accessible through shapechange. Suffice it to say, being able to be any creature, some of which cast spells of their own, via a spell is a pretty good start to a lot of overlap between casters of sufficiently high level.

[magic9mushroom]

He claimed that it was really easy for a Druid to get full access to the Wizard spell list. I don't know how. Is that even possible?

Planar Shepherd can do a lot of things, but it can't do all of them at the same time.

Wildshaping into an outsider gives access to SLA Wish, which gives access to all magic items and therefore all spells. But I'm not aware of any plane that gives access to both SLA Wish and fast-time bubble.

[Tedective]

Wizard 5, Tainted Sorcerer 1, Pale Master 10, Ur-Priest 2, Mystic Theurge 2.

That's 4th level Cleric spells with Divine Metamagic cheese / Tainted Sorcerer Metamagic cheese. All day Delay Death = Any amount of negative hit points.

Maximize Will Saves because leveling sucks with Tainted Sorcerer. Maximize Wisdom because every Wisdom point = 2 Spell Save DC.

Belt of the Dread Emperor attached to a Necrotic Tumor'd hill giant = Infinite Time Stop to refresh spells / regain hitpoints / summon vast armies.

Can the druid survive Flesh to Stone at a Fortitude save of 50? Mind you he can't shapeshift back because by being stoned, he's inanimate.

Edit: Gotta say though, Planar Shepherd's gaining of Supernatural / SLA's is incredible. Could one choose a Neutral plane and get... Everything?

[StevenC21]

I'm not sure man. Most druids in my experience are constantly stoned and wildshape just fine...

[Asmotherion]

I'm not sure man. Most druids in my experience are constantly stoned and wildshape just fine...

You win this thread! XD

[NNescio]

L10 Planar Shepard is an outsider, right?

Be a L17 Wizard. Use Gate. GG, the Druid is your bi— er, minion now.

Throw in Celerity for insurance in case the Druid has an immediate action escape option. Also stack a bunch of crafted Contingencies to cover your bases.

[StevenC21]

Well, the Planar Shepherd would be a unique creature and thus not susceptible to Gate unwillingly.

[NNescio]

Well, the Planar Shepherd would be a unique creature and thus not susceptible to Gate unwillingly.

Use it to call human planar shepherds (of [insert plane] if allowed) until you find the one you want?

[StevenC21]

All creatures with class levels can be considered unique.

[Gnaeus]

I’m pretty certain this hits the all optimized 3.5 casters fight paradigm (since both sides can cheese infinite time and money).

D: I win, I have 100 contingent spells.
W: (blinks out. Blinks back) I win, I have 1000 contingent spells.
D: (blinks out. Blinks back) I win, I have 10000 contingent spells.
W: (blinks out. Blinks back) I win, I have 20000 contingent spells.
D: (blinks out. Blinks back) I win, I have 40000 contingent spells.

And the winner is the one who doesn’t get bored and give up when they finally decide that it isn’t worth any more years of personal experience to craft more contingencies than the other guy. Or if allowed in the rules whoever grinds exp on their fast time plane of choice to hit level 21 first and crafts an epic spell to kill the other guy without hitting contingencies.

[magic9mushroom]

Edit: Gotta say though, Planar Shepherd's gaining of Supernatural / SLA's is incredible. Could one choose a Neutral plane and get... Everything?

No, because it's "native to your chosen plane". You can find a lot of things in the Outlands, but most of them aren't considered native there (also, using Planar Shepherd outside Eberron is kinda murky since it's connected to two organisations in Eberron and requires a feat representing membership in either of them).

Also, I beat you to Tainted Scholar, although I didn't particularly optimise beyond that (I was deliberately half-arsing it). :P

I do like Clerics, although there are a couple of spells they clearly need from the Wizard list (e.g. Celerity). Better chassis than Wizard, a lot of really good spells (Destruction, Implosion, Miracle) and there are some truly excellent domains around (Destiny, Time, and Transformation stand out for spell access, and there's a couple others for abilities). Even Ur-Priest misses out on the domains and the chassis, although you can use other PrCs to get around the former.

[The Glyphstone]

Who is the 'GM' in this scenario, in the sense of adjucating what planes can be found and/or created? Because if he can 'find' a plane with 1 million-to-one time and Wish-at-will SLA's, but you're not allowed to Genesis a demiplane with 1 billion-to-one time, it turns into Planar Cops and Robbers and you lose.

[StevenC21]

I want to point out that you can only have Contingent spells equal to your hit dice.

This is a fact that is depressingly often overlooked.

[Buufreak]

Right. That's why you have those all set to "if x, gate in y." Y, in this case, is something that is fully under your control, has a mountain of HD, and has their own stack of contingencies. The only limit to a wizard is themselves. Think bigger, think broader.

[StevenC21]

This makes me wonder how difficult it would be to make a functioning Turing Machine with Craft Contingent Spell and a LOT of hit dice...

[Gnaeus]

I want to point out that you can only have Contingent spells equal to your hit dice.

This is a fact that is depressingly often overlooked.

But more easily cheesed. I suppose the technical limit is how many hit dice of creatures PAOed into something fine or tiny can you fit into your square(s). When your starting point is using fast time planes and Wish as an SLA I think we can assume that things like RAI and gentlemen’s agreements left the building some time ago

[Troacctid]

Time traits are only meaningful in relation to other planes (you have to move between planes in order for them to do anything), so if you're both on the same plane, the time trait of his bubble is irrelevant. Boom, rules lawyered.

[Ryton]

It looks like this is an interesting premise for a high-op pvp throwdown. And like most high-op pvp throwdowns, I recommend the tactics taken from first such throwdown I ever witnessed. It seems no one ever expects the Hivemind.

You like Wizard, so let's say Wizard 9/Verminlord 10 (BoVD). The entire missing level we'll say is devoted to becoming a necropolitan, just so we err on the side of caution and to ensure the build is "legal". Acquire yourself 4 Bloodmite Clouds, shove 2 each into Bags of Holding Type IV. They're undead, so they don't need to breathe in there; have an unseen servant tie each Bag off around your hands. Congrats, you're now the leader of a Hivemind of 40k Bloodmites, as well as yourself, and your Vermin Servant.
According to the Hivemind rules of pg34 of BoVD, you'll be... Well, crazy.

The Hivemind will have an Int score of 807, with a modifier of +398; since you get 1 bonus feat and 1 bonus skill point per point of Int bonus per HD, and the Bloodmites have 10HD so... 3980 bonus feats and skill points.
It also has a Cha score of 805, and is a 788th level Sorcerer. Without touching epic spells, you can easily use a fraction of your bonus feats on Improved Spell Capacity to gain spells slots up to 394th level. I'm not going to bother counting how many spells that is per day. Thousands, I'm sure. So you've got 394th level spells, save DCs starting at around 400, enough spells per day to have Boccob ask if you're compensating for anything, and more feats than you should bother using (unless you opt for improved toughness a couple thousand times).

Anyhow, round it out by making the Wizard a halfling and name him Bilbo Bag-Hands, because at this point, why not.

*note that though the Verminlord's Hivemind ability states that you don't benefit from the improved Int and Cha of the Hivemind, your Vermin Servant can join, and would gain the benefits, and the full casting abilities granted...

**also, should you decide you need hands for whatever reason, your caster level has obviated the need for Persistent Spell in many cases, and a single casting of Girallon's blessing lasts like 5 days.

***also also, should things need to be dialed to even more ludicrous numbers, you can always throw more BoH swarms onto the Girallon arms for even more Bag-Hands-ing. Or legs, or additional grafted limbs... I'm sure you get the idea.

In summary, Planar Shepherd with time trait shenanigans is pretty broken, but there's always a dumber loophole for someone to exploit.

[Buufreak]

snip

See, I wasn't sure if mentioning good ole Kehpri was overkill for this, but if someone else is going to mention a hivemind build, all me to add that all the contingent shenanigans above are nothing when compared to a hivemind composed of literally tens of thousands (or more, I don't recall exactly) of HD. Last i remember, stats and contingencies were best expressed in scientific notation.

So yea, as soon as this planar shepherd has a way to become part of a hive mind, I will have to say no, he can't match 100% what a wizard could do.

[noce]

I see you want to do it with a wizard, but wouldn't it be easier with a cleric? You even mentioned AMF clerics at some point.

To beat a planar shepherd I'd go with an Initiate of Mystra cleric.
Maybe dipping Dread Necromancer, then Dweomerkeeper, but that's not really needed.

[StevenC21]

I don't optimise clerics much. Not my preferred class.

I know a bit about Persistent Spell and DMM to turn a Cleric into a good enough DPR machine, but not too much more.

[noce]

I don't optimise clerics much. Not my preferred class.

I know a bit about Persistent Spell and DMM to turn a Cleric into a good enough DPR machine, but not too much more.

The feat Initiate of Mystra allows you to create Anti Magic Fields to which you're immune.

[Anthrowhale]

The feat Initiate of Mystra allows you to create Anti Magic Fields to which you're immune.

And by 'you', you mean 'your spells'.

Some other options:

Clockwork Wizard (in my sig) breaks action/spell economy more completely than a Planar Shepard.
Be a Wizard 8/Malconvoker 8 and use Greater Planar Binding with Improved Calling to enslave. Since Greater Planar Binding has no 'unique creatures' clause like Gate this is especially elegant.

[Mato]

Q: How do you beat a druid / planar shepherd?
A: Point out planar bubble & shapchange are two spells that replicate 99.9% of that build's class features.

[unseenmage]

I want to point out that you can only have Contingent spells equal to your hit dice.

This is a fact that is depressingly often overlooked.

Carry Animated Objects on your person that carry Wish created Craff Contingent spells for you.

[StevenC21]

Well, I found out his claimed build is a Level 20 Illithid Savant 10/Planar Shepherd 10 using Polymorph to become a Mind Flayer & retraining his Druid levels into Illithid Savant.

Technically works, but, y'know...

[Mato]

His build needs more darklight wizard levels through, and a familiar.

[Troacctid]

Well, I found out his claimed build is a Level 20 Illithid Savant 10/Planar Shepherd 10 using Polymorph to become a Mind Flayer & retraining his Druid levels into Illithid Savant.

Technically works, but, y'know...
No? It doesn't work. You can't just retrain class levels. Even if you could, permamorphing into an illithid would make him inherit the mind flayer's +7 LA, which means the opposition now gets to build a 27th level character to beat him. Furthermore, he just lost all his druid casting, and he arguably loses his planar shepherd abilities once he no longer qualifies for that, too. But most pertinently, again, you can't retrain class levels.

[Buufreak]

See? This has had cheesey homebrew nonsense flavor from the beginning, but that's a solid nail in the coffin. Packing it up, moving on.

[StevenC21]

Well, I'd like a source on the retraining.

Second, his Illithid Savant deal was to get wizard, cleric, and druid casting as well as Wild Shape to THEN take Planar Shepherd levels.

[Aharon]

Right. That's why you have those all set to "if x, gate in y." Y, in this case, is something that is fully under your control, has a mountain of HD, and has their own stack of contingencies. The only limit to a wizard is themselves. Think bigger, think broader.

This doesn't work:


Once triggered, a contingent spell takes immediate effect upon the bearer (or is centered in the bearer’s square if the spell affects an area).


But more easily cheesed. I suppose the technical limit is how many hit dice of creatures PAOed into something fine or tiny can you fit into your square(s). When your starting point is using fast time planes and Wish as an SLA I think we can assume that things like RAI and gentlemen’s agreements left the building some time ago

PAO inherits the "no smaller than fine" clause from Polymorph, and you can fit four fine creatures into one square.

PAO also inherits the 15 HD limit, so that's 80 contingencies max for a medium size caster (4*15+20 for the caster).

[Troacctid]

Well, I'd like a source on the retraining.
Player's Handbook II.

[Battleship789]

Well, I'd like a source on the retraining.

Second, his Illithid Savant deal was to get wizard, cleric, and druid casting as well as Wild Shape to THEN take Planar Shepherd levels.

At that point, it is Illithid Savant (among the most broken PrCs in the game) doing the heavy lifting, not Planar Shepard (also very strong, but not near IS levels of stupidity.)

You might as well go Beholder Mage AND Illithid Savant, just to make things even more dumb.

[Silvercrys]

Player's Handbook II.I just used this particular cheese to qualify for Fiend of Possession "early" as a Dvati a few days ago. It ~probably works as described but it's definitely not "easy" when you're using a spell to qualify for Illithid Savant, and it's certainly not a Druid build, it's an Illithid Savant build.

You might as well just build a Mindflayer 15/Illithid Savant 4/Thrallherd 1 and use your Thrall class features to attract Legacy Champion 10s, eat them to acquire the advance class feature ability, advance Illithid Savant for 8 effective levels per day for a while to stack up extract class feature/feats/skills etc. uses, then start attracting random stuff and eating it until you're basically Pun Pun the round about way but without any true infinites.

That's basically what he did except using fiat to claim he can find and kill spellcasters instead of doing it honest with Thrallherd. You only need fiat to find a low level Psion who knows Mindlink and those are basically a dime a dozen.

For a cleaner, somewhat less monstrous build, try a Half-Illithid Psion 5/Wizard 1/Thrallherd 1/Illithid Savant 9 with LA buyoff to squeak in that 9th level, then tell him you met the challenge requirements better than him because he doesn't even have a level of Druid anymore and you're still a Wizard.

Then sic your Aleax Ice Assassins or whatever on him.

[Anthrowhale]

To expand on the 'enslave' solution, be a human Wizard 8/Malconvoker 8 taking feats:
Human: Spell Mastery
1. Uncanny Forethought
3. SF(Conjuration)
6. Augment Summoning
9. ??
12. ??
15. ??

Step 1: Draw a calling diagram.
Step 2: Cast Moment of Prescience.
Step 3: Cast Magic Circle on Calling Diagram.
Step 4: Cast Dimensional Anchor on Calling Diagram.
Step 5: Cast Greater Planar Binding targeting other character. This fails on a save. Feel free to add in (say) Red Wizard to make the save very difficult.
Step 6: Ask other character to work follow every command you make.
Step 7: Use MoP to win the opposed Charisma check. This fails if you roll a 1.

[Crake]

Player's Handbook II.

I mean, phb2 does include rebuild rules that allow for the re-picking of class levels, but I believe the rebuild has to be unpacked backward and rebuilt in a legitimate manner, so your build still needs to make sense

[magic9mushroom]

Q: How do you beat a druid / planar shepherd?
A: Point out planar bubble & shapchange are two spells that replicate 99.9% of that build's class features.
Eh. Depends how easy it is to get your hands on a native of Dal Quor or the Far Realm - in the former case, it's "not very" since they are literally incapable of being planeshifted to the Material, and in the latter case it varies.

I suppose you can get (Su) Wish via shapechanging into a Zodar, though there's the whole "does that mean you can only do it once a year" issue.

Well, I found out his claimed build is a Level 20 Illithid Savant 10/Planar Shepherd 10 using Polymorph to become a Mind Flayer & retraining his Druid levels into Illithid Savant.

Technically works, but, y'know...

At that point, it is Illithid Savant (among the most broken PrCs in the game) doing the heavy lifting, not Planar Shepard (also very strong, but not near IS levels of stupidity.)

You might as well go Beholder Mage AND Illithid Savant, just to make things even more dumb.
Illithid Savant is not among the most broken PrCs in the game, it is literally the most broken PrC in the game. It is literally Pun-Pun Lite, because it uses the same mechanic of "gain arbitrary abilities" - it's just a little more limited in how many abilities you can gain, and that's largely irrelevant because you can just take Manipulate Form itself.

Beholder Mage has limits. Sure, those limits are "I cast ten spells per round off the entire Sor/Wiz list without preparation", but it has them. Illithid Savant is unbounded because it hands Pun-Pun power to you on a platter.

[Silvercrys]

I mean, phb2 does include rebuild rules that allow for the re-picking of class levels, but I believe the rebuild has to be unpacked backward and rebuilt in a legitimate manner, so your build still needs to make senseIt isn't quuuite that strict, it just says that when you rebuild class levels into a prestige class, you have to show that you qualify for it using your "remaining class levels", not necessarily the class levels you had when you would have taken the class if played organically, and that if you no longer meet the prerequisites for a prestige class you already had you lose the benefits of class features and special abilities until you meet them again.

So, technically you could play a Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10 to level 20, find a level 10 Druid and use your considerable magical prowess to starve them, deny them spell slots, or otherwise trap them and make them harmless, like applying a strong poison that deals ability drain to a mental stat repeatedly, then shove them into an extra dimensional space item where they won't suffocate (I'm sure there is one of those, right? If there isn't, you can put them in an extradimensional space long enough to teleport to the Gates of Dawn and just bind them up so they can't escape).

Next, Shapechange into an Illithid for 200 minutes = 3 hours 20 minutes. Walk through the Gates of Dawn in the example encounter and retrain 4 levels of Druid to Illithid Savant, wake up after an hour, do it again, then wake up after an hour and do it one more time to trade out the last 6 levels, using Planar Shepard skill points to qualify for Illithid Savant.

At this point you only have around 20 minutes to requalify for Planar Shepard or your Shapechange will end and you'll be a Humanoid 20, heh. So eat the brain of the Druid 10, stealing his ability to cast level 10 Druid spells and to Wildshape as a level 10 Druid. Now you qualify for Planar Shepard again. Your Shapechange ends, but you're basically the same character as when you started except with slightly fewer spell slots of levels 1-5 (you only get 1 slot of those levels plus bonus spells) and you're missing a few Druid ribbons/Animal Companion.

Then you can either say "I think the Illithid Savant can just use his class features over and over again" or do the whole "find a level 10 Legacy Champion and extract his brain to get his advance class features class feature, advance Illithid Savant to Epic Illithid Savant with virtual levels to get additional Extract Class Features" and loop it that way... But you need fiat and a very, very long time to actually find and defeat these creatures where the Thrallherd build just needs the DM to agree such creatures exist and that you can choose which creatures answer your call, rather than the DM making the Thralls for you or randomly rolling them using a houserule chart.