Pathfinder 2e - having trouble understanding spell repertoire and "Learn a Spell"

[quark12000]

I can't find the table for Spells Known for Bard and Sorcerer. Plus, it looks like leveling up is going to cost a lot of money for all the spellcasters, apparently.

[quark12000]

Can anyone help?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I can't find the table for Spells Known for Bard and Sorcerer. Plus, it looks like leveling up is going to cost a lot of money for all the spellcasters, apparently.

It seems (not an expert) that as a bard you know the same number of spells as you have spell slots, including levels. So at 10th level, you know 5 cantrips, and 3 of each level of spell up to 5th. You start with 2 1sts, gain another 1st at 2nd level, gain 2 2nd level spells at 3rd, etc. So the number learned at each level is the difference between the spell slots at that level and the spell slots at the previous level.

At least for the bard, I see no indication that this costs money.

[quark12000]

It seems (not an expert) that as a bard you know the same number of spells as you have spell slots, including levels. So at 10th level, you know 5 cantrips, and 3 of each level of spell up to 5th. You start with 2 1sts, gain another 1st at 2nd level, gain 2 2nd level spells at 3rd, etc. So the number learned at each level is the difference between the spell slots at that level and the spell slots at the previous level.

At least for the bard, I see no indication that this costs money.

According to the "Learn a Spell" skill action, anytime you learn a new spell it costs both time and money. Plus you have to find someone to teach it to you.

[PhoenixPhyre]

According to the "Learn a Spell" skill action, anytime you learn a new spell it costs both time and money. Plus you have to find someone to teach it to you.

That's for learning other spells, not required (as I read it) for the ones you get from leveling up.

[quark12000]

That's for learning other spells, not required (as I read it) for the ones you get from leveling up.

Doesn't say that. I think it means whenever you "Learn a Spell", else why have a special section under Skills?

[Eldonauran]

...If you have a spellbook, Learning a Spell lets you add the spell to your spellbook; if you prepare spells from a list, it's added to your list; if you have a spell repertoire, you can select it when you add or swap spells.
As a spontaneous caster, this would be only useful to you during your downtime between level ups. And possibly only when you are getting access to more "uncommon or rare" spells that aren't normally available (maybe in future source releases).

[quark12000]

Exactly. "When you add or swap spells." When do you add or swap spells? When you level up.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Exactly. "When you add or swap spells." When do you add or swap spells? When you level up.

I still read that as "you can learn other spells (beyond the ones you get for free at level-up when you learn spells normally, but you have to pay money and time for them". So you get N = # of slots for free, but anything else you have to pay for.

But who knows. Maybe the PF2 designers were trying to nerf casters badly by making them pay for all their spells.

[Eldonauran]

Exactly. "When you add or swap spells." When do you add or swap spells? When you level up.
... No. Not exactly. You've got to read closer...



As you gain new spells in your repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. This spell can be a cantrip. You can also swap out spells by retraining during downtime (page 481).
So, any time that you want to swap spells outside of a level up (or more than ONE per spell level during level up), you can use the Learn A Spell rules. At least, for the spontaneous casters.

[quark12000]

So, any time that you want to swap spells outside of a level up (or more than ONE per spell level during level up), you can use the Learn A Spell rules. At least, for the spontaneous casters.

I don't know why you say "outside of a level up". Nothing in the text indicates that level ups are excluded from the "Learn a Spell" rules.

[Eldonauran]

I don't know why you say "outside of a level up". Nothing in the text indicates that level ups are excluded from the "Learn a Spell" rules.
Unless you want to force spellcasters to pay for every spell they ever learn during level up (which I find ridiculous as a concept, as their class features would point you towards the action if it was intended to be used that way), my choice to clarify "outside of a level up" is necessary to differentiate between the normal spells you learn and the one spell you are allowed to change for free. Spontaneous casters in PF2 use the Learn a Spell action when they are attempting to learn a new spell outside of the two options given during level up. They still have to "choose it" when they retrain or level up, so that it is added to their Spell repertoire but that doesn't mean they can't use the Learn a Spell action in advance.

[quark12000]

Unless you want to force spellcasters to pay for every spell they ever learn during level up (which I find ridiculous as a concept, as their class features would point you towards the action if it was intended to be used that way),

I think that if this was not what was intended, it would clearly say so, either in the individual class write ups, or in the Learn a Spell description. But there is no indication in the class write ups that spells gained on level up are "free", or in the Learn a Spell description that it does not apply to spells gained on level up.



my choice to clarify "outside of a level up" is necessary to differentiate between the normal spells you learn and the one spell you are allowed to change for free. Spontaneous casters in PF2 use the Learn a Spell action when they are attempting to learn a new spell outside of the two options given during level up. They still have to "choose it" when they retrain or level up, so that it is added to their Spell repertoire but that doesn't mean they can't use the Learn a Spell action in advance.

I thought spontaneous casters had a rigid number of known spells. According to PhoenixPhyre, this is the same as the caster's spell slots for the day (which brings up another question: Are they only allowed one use of each spell per day?). I didn't think it was possible for a spontaneous caster to know more spells than this. Wizards, yes, can have any number of spells in their spellbook (which they must pay for with the Learn a Spell activity), but I didn't think this was true for bards and sorcerers.

As it is, I think these issues are ambiguous enough that the designers should clarify what their intent was.

[ottdmk]

If they can cast spells, see the class entry for details on adding spell slots and spells.
You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each time you get a spell slot (see Table 3–6), you add a spell to your spell repertoire of the same level. At 2nd level, you select another 1st-level spell; at 3rd level, you select two 2nd-level spells, and so on. When you add spells, you might add a higher-level version of a spell you already have, so you can cast a heightened version of that spell.
What's persuasive to me is that nowhere in any of this language does it say "use (using) Learn a Spell.

If you look at the other four Spellcasting Classes, it's the same thing. None of them have you using Learn a Spell to level up.

The other thing is retraining. Retraining is a Downtime Activity. Learn a Spell is an Exploration Skill Action. It doesn't apply during Downtime.

It seems quite plain to me that Learn a Spell is only used to increase your repetoire (or spellbook, or whatever) during Exploration, when you meet a new Spellcaster, or find a Scroll, a Spellbook, something similar, etc. It costs GP because learning Spells beyond what your Class gives you is a major advantage for Spellcasters.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think that if this was not what was intended, it would clearly say so, either in the individual class write ups, or in the Learn a Spell description. But there is no indication in the class write ups that spells gained on level up are "free", or in the Learn a Spell description that it does not apply to spells gained on level up.


That's not how rules work. They tell you if something applies, not all the times it doesn't apply.



I thought spontaneous casters had a rigid number of known spells. According to PhoenixPhyre, this is the same as the caster's spell slots for the day (which brings up another question: Are they only allowed one use of each spell per day?). I didn't think it was possible for a spontaneous caster to know more spells than this. Wizards, yes, can have any number of spells in their spellbook (which they must pay for with the Learn a Spell activity), but I didn't think this was true for bards and sorcerers.


That's the number of automatically learned spells. There's no indication that it's a maximum. And no, they can use any spell they have slots for. If they know fireball and have 3 level 3 slots, they can cast fireball 3x (at the cost of not being able to use those slots for anything else).



As it is, I think these issues are ambiguous enough that the designers should clarify what their intent was.

Your reading causes significant enough issues with function and clarity, while the other reading makes much more sense and doesn't cause issues. If one reading doesn't cause problems and the other does...{Scrubbed}.

[quark12000]

That's not how rules work. They tell you if something applies, not all the times it doesn't apply.
But it says that it does apply to spontaneous casters when adding/swapping spells etc.




That's the number of automatically learned spells. There's no indication that it's a maximum. And no, they can use any spell they have slots for. If they know fireball and have 3 level 3 slots, they can cast fireball 3x (at the cost of not being able to use those slots for anything else).
So, theoretically, a bard or sorcerer could know all of their spells at each level? Doesn't that seem kind of unbalanced?



Your reading causes significant enough issues with function and clarity, while the other reading makes much more sense and doesn't cause issues. If one reading doesn't cause problems and the other does...{Scrubbed post, scrubbed quote}

{Scrubbed}

[quark12000]

What's persuasive to me is that nowhere in any of this language does it say "use (using) Learn a Spell.

If you look at the other four Spellcasting Classes, it's the same thing. None of them have you using Learn a Spell to level up.
The Learn a Spell write up indicates that you use it when learning a new spell, implying that it is used any time the PC learns a new spell. It doesn't provide for an exception during level up. Thus, my confusion.


The other thing is retraining. Retraining is a Downtime Activity. Learn a Spell is an Exploration Skill Action. It doesn't apply during Downtime.

It seems quite plain to me that Learn a Spell is only used to increase your repetoire (or spellbook, or whatever) during Exploration, when you meet a new Spellcaster, or find a Scroll, a Spellbook, something similar, etc. It costs GP because learning Spells beyond what your Class gives you is a major advantage for Spellcasters.

Not really sure what the difference is between "Exploration" and "Downtime".

[torrasque666]

Not really sure what the difference is between "Exploration" and "Downtime". PF2 considers them distinctly separate "modes" of gameplay. One is all the stuff done when not actively adventuring (staying in a city, between campaign arcs, timeskips, etc.) while the other is all the things done while actively adventuring, but between combats (wandering through the forest, devling into a dungeon, trekking across the country, etc)

[quark12000]

PF2 considers them distinctly separate "modes" of gameplay. One is all the stuff done when not actively adventuring (staying in a city, between campaign arcs, timeskips, etc.) while the other is all the things done while actively adventuring, but between combats (wandering through the forest, devling into a dungeon, trekking across the country, etc)

Haven't found that yet.

[Eldonauran]

Haven't found that yet.

Perhaps you should read the core rule book, specifically pages 492 - 502. Also, the Skills, Key Abilities, and Actions table (4-1) on page 253 has some information at the bottom to designate what skills can be used during which phase you are currently in. Learn a Spell has the 'E' and 'G' notations, meaning it can be used in the Exploration phase and that it is a general skill action.

[quark12000]

Perhaps you should read the core rule book, specifically pages 492 - 502. Also, the Skills, Key Abilities, and Actions table (4-1) on page 253 has some information at the bottom to designate what skills can be used during which phase you are currently in. Learn a Spell has the 'E' and 'G' notations, meaning it can be used in the Exploration phase and that it is a general skill action.

Working my way through it. In Lost Omens section now.

[Eldonauran]

Working my way through it. In Lost Omens section now.
Ah, ok. No worries then. After you've fully read the book and digested the information, you should be able to resolve the issue. Enjoy!

[quark12000]

Ah, ok. No worries then. After you've fully read the book and digested the information, you should be able to resolve the issue. Enjoy!

Strange that they would clarify "modes of gameplay" after a section where you need to know them, but whatever.

[quark12000]

Ah, ok. No worries then. After you've fully read the book and digested the information, you should be able to resolve the issue. Enjoy!

Okay, I've read the section on the different modes of play. I now understand what was meant by "Learn a Spell is an exploration activity". Here's my new question: Can spells be learned (or swapped) during downtime? Spells aren't mentioned in the Downtime section. There's definitely no breakdown of cost in gp or time like there is in the Learn a Spell write up.

Tied in with this, does writing spells in a spellbook for a wizard cost more than the other casters learning new spells? The wizard has to use special inks and pens and paper, if I remember original PF and 5e correctly. Is this true in PF2e?

[Eldonauran]

For spontaneous casters, swapping the spell into their spell repertoire can be done anytime they can change spells. Outside of level up, that is only possible with the retraining options.

As for wizards writing spells into their spellbook, they don't appear to cost any more than any other spellcaster when learning new spells. They do have to have a spellbook (See Page 291) and have to buy a new one for the occasion when their old one gets filled up (100 spells). It seems PF2 did away with the extra costs, though you may have to find someone who knows the spell (and convince them to teach it to you) or pay for a scroll in order to do it, so some extra costs are assumed.

[quark12000]

For spontaneous casters, swapping the spell into their spell repertoire can be done anytime they can change spells. Outside of level up, that is only possible with the retraining options.


I don't remember anything about spells in the Retraining section, but let's assume it's possible to learn them during downtime. Would the cost be the same as the Learn a Spell activity? And is the cost for swapping a spell for a spontaneous caster the same as learning an uncommon or rare one?

[Eldonauran]

I don't remember anything about spells in the Retraining section, but let's assume it's possible to learn them during downtime. Would the cost be the same as the Learn a Spell activity? And is the cost for swapping a spell for a spontaneous caster the same as learning an uncommon or rare one?
You can learn new spells during downtime, see the text right above the retraining entry

Downtime gives you time to rest fully, engage in crafting or a professional endeavor, learn new spells, retrain feats, or just have fun. You can sell items acquired during your adventures, buy new goods, and perform other activities as determined by your feats, your skills, and the settlement where you are spending the downtime.
As I stated before, you will need to work with your GM to determine pricing and time to perform the task of swapping a new Spell into a spontaneous caster's spell repertoire. It is likely part of retraining a class Feature (since that is what spells are) but likely won't take a month, more like what a feat would take. As a player, this is the best answer you are going to get outside of asking your GM. If you are the GM, you get to use these guidelines to make your decision.