Help with pathfinder multiclassing

[PostMortemCP]

Hello my group and I are new to pathfinder, but where old 3.5ers. So we almost always ignored favored class and multi class penalty, but due to me running more games, I want to get the hang of the rules proper. So how does the multiclass system of pathfinder work?
As an archetyper this effects me less, as I plan archetype ahead of time so I can avoid taking more than one class if possible. Something that pathfinder has made me love, and I try and let my group know that they should study archetypes to best fit what they want to do (very few listen).
I just need some quick clearing of the system so I may begin to incorporate the rules. To my understanding when reaching second level or higher you decided when and if you need to multiclass. When you do you drop to 0xp but lock in your previous option. Then you progress based of ecl (the tricky part for me cause the section is so small and I’ll admit sometimes I need an idiot proof explanation). So does that mean you progress to the XP of let’s say 4lv fighter begins to take wizard (I know a silly combination nowadays when you look at all the stuff Pathfinder 1e has) would you progress to level 5xp to reach level 1 wizard or do you just gain less xp? Then after you reach an even amount of levels what do you do there? These instructions are a bit unclear and now I leveled into toaster, please help me understand using the idiots guide.

[Elysiume]

Experience to level up is based on character level. A Fighter 4 / Wizard 1 is a level 5 character and needs the same amount of experience to level up as would a Fighter 5, Wizard 5, Fighter 3 / Wizard 2, Rogue 1 / Ranger 1 / Monk 1 / Bloodrager 1 / Warpriest 1, etc. There is no multiclassing experience penalty. Neither character level nor class level changes the exp you get from any given monster.

You don't ever drop to 0xp. The experience to level up is entirely additive. With fast leveling you hit level 2 at 1300 and level 3 at 3300; it takes 2000xp to get from level 2 to level 3.

I'm not sure what you mean by hitting an even amount of levels.

[PostMortemCP]

Experience to level up is based on character level. A Fighter 4 / Wizard 1 is a level 5 character and needs the same amount of experience to level up as would a Fighter 5, Wizard 5, Fighter 3 / Wizard 2, Rogue 1 / Ranger 1 / Monk 1 / Bloodrager 1 / Warpriest 1, etc. There is no multiclassing experience penalty. Neither character level nor class level changes the exp you get from any given monster.

You don't ever drop to 0xp. The experience to level up is entirely additive. With fast leveling you hit level 2 at 1300 and level 3 at 3300; it takes 2000xp to get from level 2 to level 3.

Here is the pfsrd that is the exact same as the book.
Characters may not change classes until they are at least 2nd level.
The character declares their new class combination.
The character’s XP total reverts to zero, but the character loses no current class features and no class- or level-based abilities.
The character gains XP as a character of his new Effective Character Level (0 plus LA) until gaining enough XP to reach 1st level, at which point they gain the 1st level class features of their new class(es) and may retrain, without spending additional time or money, their skill groups and specialties according to their new class combination.
The character continues gaining levels in their new classes until their Effective Character Level is equal to their original level, at which point they advance normally.
Characters may also choose to stop advancing in a class, with the GM’s permission, at the expense of their class features:

The character declares their new class combination, as in adding classes, and their XP total reverts to zero. (Characters may add and abandon classes at the same time, and must do so if they are abandoning their only base class.) They lose all class features and class skills of the abandoned class, but not proficiencies, feats, or skills.
It specifically says you drops to zero

[Elysiume]

Here is the pfsrd that is the exact same as the book.
Characters may not change classes until they are at least 2nd level.
The character declares their new class combination.
The character’s XP total reverts to zero, but the character loses no current class features and no class- or level-based abilities.
The character gains XP as a character of his new Effective Character Level (0 plus LA) until gaining enough XP to reach 1st level, at which point they gain the 1st level class features of their new class(es) and may retrain, without spending additional time or money, their skill groups and specialties according to their new class combination.
The character continues gaining levels in their new classes until their Effective Character Level is equal to their original level, at which point they advance normally.
Characters may also choose to stop advancing in a class, with the GM’s permission, at the expense of their class features:

The character declares their new class combination, as in adding classes, and their XP total reverts to zero. (Characters may add and abandon classes at the same time, and must do so if they are abandoning their only base class.) They lose all class features and class skills of the abandoned class, but not proficiencies, feats, or skills.
It specifically says you drops to zeroAre you looking at this page (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/fgf-houserules/vcg-multiclassing/)? It's the only match for the stuff you listed.
https://i.imgur.com/MyDhY6n.png
It's a random person's houserules, not the actual Pathfinder rules. What book are you saying this matches?

The actual rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/) are simpler. Pathfinder doesn't have level adjustment.

[PostMortemCP]

Are you looking at this page (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/fgf-houserules/vcg-multiclassing/)? It's the only match for the stuff you listed.
https://i.imgur.com/MyDhY6n.png
It's a random person's houserules, not the actual Pathfinder rules. What book are you saying this matches?

The actual rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/) are simpler. Pathfinder doesn't have level adjustment.

Ok so then there’s no need to change things?

[Elysiume]

I'm a bit confused--did you think those were the RAW multiclassing rules and were asking for a clarification or were you asking whether it was recommended to use the houserules?

Whether there's a need to change the multiclassing rules is a question in and of itself. In most cases it ranges from mediocre to outright harmful. As those houserules say, trading higher-level features of one class for lower-level features in another class is rarely useful outside of short dips that either get a lot of value (e.g. swashbuckler dips) or set up a strong combo (e.g. oracle/paladin -> oradin). I can't really attest to whether or not those rules make things better or worse, but they certainly make things more complicated.

[PostMortemCP]

I'm a bit confused--did you think those were the RAW multiclassing rules and were asking for a clarification or were you asking whether it was recommended to use the houserules?

Whether there's a need to change the multiclassing rules is a question in and of itself. In most cases it ranges from mediocre to outright harmful. As those houserules say, trading higher-level features of one class for lower-level features in another class is rarely useful outside of short dips that either get a lot of value (e.g. swashbuckler dips) or set up a strong combo (e.g. oracle/paladin -> oradin). I can't really attest to whether or not those rules make things better or worse, but they certainly make things more complicated.

Would they be good to prevent power gamers though? Because I may be willing to overlook a headache if it means being able to keep some players in check. I don’t need someone trying to out do everyone else simply because they can and will do it.

[PostMortemCP]

And yes I did think it was RAW because it’s the first link that pops up when you google it and you’d think they wouldn’t push a house rule above the actual rules but apparently they do?

[Elysiume]

If you're concerned about the power level of multiclassing, those house rules are aimed at buffing it. If you're worried about multiclassing being too strong, 1) it's not a substantial problem in PF, 2) don't implement rules that're trying to buff it more. It's implementing a variant of gestalt that'll result in slower character growth but a weird mishmash of power. Let's compare three characters: a non-MC wizard, a MC wizard/fighter, and a houserule MC/gestalt wizard/fighter.


The pure wizard hits level 8 at 34,000xp. They have 8 hit dice (all d6s), cast 4th level spells, have a BAB of 4, and base saves 2/2/6. They have all class features of a level 8 wizard.
The MC wizard/fighter hits level 8 at 34,000xp with 4 levels each of fighter and wizard. They have 8 hit dice (4x d6, 4x d10), cast 2nd level spells, have a BAB of 6 (wizard gives 2, fighter gives 4), and base saves 5/2/5 (1/1/4 from wizard, 4/1/1 from fighter). They have all class features of a level 4 wizard plus a level 4 fighter.
The gestalt wizard/fighter hits level 6 at 34,000xp with 6 gestalt levels of fighter and wizard. They have 6 hit dice (all d10s taking the fighter die because it's higher), cast 3rd level spells, have a BAB of 6 (taking the fighter BAB because it's higher), and base saves 5/2/5 (taking the good will save from wizard, the good fort save from fighter, and the tied reflex save). They have all class features of a level 6 wizard plus a level 6 fighter.


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I think those houserules end up higher than the actual rules because the page is straight up called "multiclassing" while the actual MC rules are buried on the general "character advancement" page.

[KillianHawkeye]

And yes I did think it was RAW because it’s the first link that pops up when you google it and you’d think they wouldn’t push a house rule above the actual rules but apparently they do?

Please understand that PFSRD does not control the order of your Google search results, nor does Google's algorithm care about which pages on PFSRD contain official rules and which ones contain random homebrew.

[PostMortemCP]

If you're concerned about the power level of multiclassing, those house rules are aimed at buffing it. If you're worried about multiclassing being too strong, 1) it's not a substantial problem in PF, 2) don't implement rules that're trying to buff it more. It's implementing a variant of gestalt that'll result in slower character growth but a weird mishmash of power. Let's compare three characters: a non-MC wizard, a MC wizard/fighter, and a houserule MC/gestalt wizard/fighter.


The pure wizard hits level 8 at 34,000xp. They have 8 hit dice (all d6s), cast 4th level spells, have a BAB of 4, and base saves 2/2/6. They have all class features of a level 8 wizard.
The MC wizard/fighter hits level 8 at 34,000xp with 4 levels each of fighter and wizard. They have 8 hit dice (4x d6, 4x d10), cast 2nd level spells, have a BAB of 6 (wizard gives 2, fighter gives 4), and base saves 5/2/5 (1/1/4 from wizard, 4/1/1 from fighter). They have all class features of a level 4 wizard plus a level 4 fighter.
The gestalt wizard/fighter hits level 6 at 34,000xp with 6 gestalt levels of fighter and wizard. They have 6 hit dice (all d10s taking the fighter die because it's higher), cast 3rd level spells, have a BAB of 6 (taking the fighter BAB because it's higher), and base saves 5/2/5 (taking the good will save from wizard, the good fort save from fighter, and the tied reflex save). They have all class features of a level 6 wizard plus a level 6 fighter.


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I think those houserules end up higher than the actual rules because the page is straight up called "multiclassing" while the actual MC rules are buried on the general "character advancement" page.

Thank you I really needed some clarification especially since my next game is going to be a intrrigue and occult game. I really want to limit power gaming and meta knowledge so I can craft that “what’s this, and how does it connect to the disappearances” vibe. I also don’t see my players multiclassing as much in this anyway, but it will help if I ever get around to a wilderness game.

[Tedective]

Normally I'd suggest some cool prestige classes.

Pathfinder really made 1 to 20's pretty natural, with capstones and abilities each level.

If you want to multiclass, just take Leadership and live vicariously through your cohort.

[PostMortemCP]

Normally I'd suggest some cool prestige classes.

Pathfinder really made 1 to 20's pretty natural, with capstones and abilities each level.

If you want to multiclass, just take Leadership and live vicariously through your cohort.

I was actually reading some of the “alternate” leaderships that appear in ultimate intrigue and man you can basically make a whole party of your own

[FaerieGodfather]

Those are actually my houserules. They're not very good, but I'm trying to make them better. The official Pathfinder rules are almost identical to the official 3.5 rules except the elimination of multiclassing penalties and Level Adjustment.

If you don't already understand thoroughly how the official Pathfinder rules work, I would not recommend screwing around with my house rules, or anything else in the Fan Lab section of the PFSRD.

Elysiume is giving you the real story and their analysis of the (intentional) shift in game balance for multiclass characters is pretty much correct. I would point out that they don't make multiclass characters strictly better, because they prevent characters from casually level-dipping. There are some ugly interactions with certain Prestige Classes, especially ones with less than 10/10 or 9/10 +1 caster level progression. Overall, I think I've suceeded in making it feel more like AD&D multiclassing... but I still need to get the balance right, and figure out a more elegant way to explain them.

edit: Those rules are also a couple thousand iterations behind my current model. But hey, I am always happy to try to explain how I'm trying to make them work.


Would they be good to prevent power gamers though? Because I may be willing to overlook a headache if it means being able to keep some players in check. I don’t need someone trying to out do everyone else simply because they can and will do it.

Currently, unless you're stupid about the number of classes you take, characters using those rules become more powerful than single-class characters between 5th and 10th level. They're intentionally designed to be more powerful than your basic EK/AT/MT builds, and hopefully designed to be less powerful than moderately-optimized 3.5 characters. I am working on the Level Adjustment math to correct the former; my current thoughts are scaling Level Adjustment similar to the Bloodlines rules also from Unearthed Arcana.

I am also thinking of saying "just screw it" and replacing the Level Adjustments with an XP Modifier and crapping out an opaque chart for XP required for the combination of level and modifier.

[PostMortemCP]

Those are actually my houserules. They're not very good, but I'm trying to make them better. The official Pathfinder rules are almost identical to the official 3.5 rules except the elimination of multiclassing penalties and Level Adjustment.

If you don't already understand thoroughly how the official Pathfinder rules work, I would not recommend screwing around with my house rules, or anything else in the Fan Lab section of the PFSRD.

Elysiume is giving you the real story and their analysis of the (intentional) shift in game balance for multiclass characters is pretty much correct. I would point out that they don't make multiclass characters strictly better, because they prevent characters from casually level-dipping. There are some ugly interactions with certain Prestige Classes, especially ones with less than 10/10 or 9/10 +1 caster level progression. Overall, I think I've suceeded in making it feel more like AD&D multiclassing... but I still need to get the balance right, and figure out a more elegant way to explain them.

edit: Those rules are also a couple thousand iterations behind my current model. But hey, I am always happy to try to explain how I'm trying to make them work.



Currently, unless you're stupid about the number of classes you take, characters using those rules become more powerful than single-class characters between 5th and 10th level. They're intentionally designed to be more powerful than your basic EK/AT/MT builds, and hopefully designed to be less powerful than moderately-optimized 3.5 characters. I am working on the Level Adjustment math to correct the former; my current thoughts are scaling Level Adjustment similar to the Bloodlines rules also from Unearthed Arcana.

I am also thinking of saying "just screw it" and replacing the Level Adjustments with an XP Modifier and crapping out an opaque chart for XP required for the combination of level and modifier.

Part of my confusion was that I thought that was the core rules (due to google and the off naming for pathfinders official rule location). Not to mention reading while inebriated.
But I did like your rules because I had some old ad&d books and tried to convince my friends to play it for a throwback game. They decided not to.... and we’ll now half a continent is full of nearly unkillable undead because they never stoped that event.

[Psyren]

And yes I did think it was RAW because it’s the first link that pops up when you google it and you’d think they wouldn’t push a house rule above the actual rules but apparently they do?

PFSRD is a good site but contains a lot of third party and even some homebrew stuff. If you want the actual rules for making and leveling characters, you can find them on the official PRD here: https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Character%20Advancement&Category=Basics