OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

Also, new News post (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html#xa444VOZosE2RLaHpFP).

[RatElemental]

Wow, never actually witnessed the moment a comic went up before.

Edit: And damn, was a bit off in my guess as to why Loki made the bet, but was right in why he changed plans. Was almost sweet seeing him fawn over Hel's scheming like that, in a way.

[Qaanol]

Oh snap, Loki’s true character comes out at last!

[Vrock Bait]

Same. Nice to understand Loki’s motives a bit better.

[Fyraltari]

I wish to amend my previous statement. The Odinssons are screwed up.

Also does this establish Hel as NE?

[Schroeswald]

Finally these debates about Loki’s plan and whether Hel could die are over.

[Iruka]

Hm, I never really considered Loki's motivation.

[Fyraltari]

Finally these debates about Loki’s plan and whether Hel could die are over.

[insert sweet summer child meme here]

[Seerow]

Loki for Dad of the cycle?

[Schroeswald]

[insert sweet summer child meme here]

I know full well I’m being optimistic here, so mostly over then.

[Psyren]

Nice of Loki to remind us that he's CE.

Wait, didn't Loki himself help institute the "no-backsies" rule?

Though I suppose if the jury remains hung then we can have a revote, and if the heroes haven't made much progress there'll definitely be a lot more in the "reboot reality" camp.

Anyway - while I never really thought about it much before, the concept of deities putting faith in their clerics (which I suppose can be taken multiple ways!) is definitely interesting. Makes you wonder how far forward they can see. Odin's seemingly cryptic statements suggests he might see farther than his children - is that due to his portfolio, him having originated his pantheon, both, or something else?

[Resileaf]

I know full well I’m being optimistic here, so mostly over then.

At least we have most of the info from the mouth of the Trickster himself. If that doesn't count as 'Word of God', I don't know what will.

[HandofShadows]

Nice look into Loki there.

[Goblin_Priest]

What a nice functional family. XD

What's the black sphere though?


Hm, I never really considered Loki's motivation.

Same, now that I think of it.

[Zhorn]

I love these big context reveals

[hroþila]

So "stir **** up" and "change of plans due to chance of stopping the Snarl" are the final answers.

Nice of Loki to remind us that he's CE.

Wait, didn't Loki himself help institute the "no-backsies" rule?

Though I suppose if the jury remains hung then we can have a revote, and if the heroes haven't made much progress there'll definitely be a lot more in the "reboot reality" camp.
Loki probably couldn't change his vote, but he could work towards endangering the last Gate as a way to force the gods to destroy the world and fulfill Hel's plan.

[Peelee]

Let this be a lesson to everyone: Geez I can never make a half-decent prediction to save my life.

[JT]

At least we have most of the info from the mouth of the Trickster himself. If that doesn't count as 'Word of God', I don't know what will.

But Loki lies all the time. :D

[Peelee]

What's the black sphere though?

Last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) Neutral Evil is fotti g for a goddess of death, and disease.

[hroþila]

Let this be a lesson to everyone: Geez I can never make a half-decent prediction to save my life.
That's not the spirit. Loki "doesn't know", he's obviously wrong, it ain't over yet! :smalltongue:

[Resileaf]

But Loki lies all the time. :D

But as he said, he can tell the truth if it will allow him to rub it in Thor's face!

[Tvtyrant]

"Who knew she had that much hustle?" Hel, the Nale that Tarquin always said he wanted (but probably didn't.)

[Lheticus]

[insert sweet summer child meme here]

...I'm totally sigging this.

[Lord Torath]

What's the black sphere though?Access to Hel's domain.

I like how Loki can only tell the truth to Thor because he's rubbing Thor's face in being wrong. Just like how Odin's still not quite right from his time of northerners not believing in magic, Loki is sort-of controlled by the beliefs of his followers.

[RatElemental]

Let this be a lesson to everyone: Geez I can never make a half-decent prediction to save my life.

I knew I should have put some quatloos on it :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

That's not the spirit. Loki "doesn't know", he's obviously wrong, it ain't over yet! :smalltongue:

True, I can still cling to my "she won't die in this world, at least" belief.

[nolongeralurker]

Wow, last comic I thought he was just sad his daughter might kill him, now it turns out he's sad *she* might die.

I'm actually somewhat touched by this.

[Anarion]

I’m interested to hear Loki describe himself as having half a billion people who think he’s incapable of telling the truth. That’s a lot of people! Bigger than I had thought for the whole OOTS world, though it’s certainly possible that Loki was exaggerating to make a point.

[mjasghar]

So another plus to the idea the red eyed gods equals evil

[nolongeralurker]

It's interesting that Loki won't be honest with his daughter because it'll go against how he usually behaves, when just six strips ago he was explaining that he can do whatever he wants if it's most convenient for him. Don't see why this couldn't be justified the same way. (Plus, it's not like all his followers would find out about it.)

*Edit: missed a word

[NihhusHuotAliro]

It is unsettling how Loki refers to the world as belonging in the trash. For one of the creators of a world to think so little of it, of all the people living there, is callous in a way that neither Xykon nor the Snarl manages to achieve. At least those two don't have such utter disregard for whatever-the-world-of-OOTS-is-called.

[Worldsong]

Assuming that Loki is telling the truth this would both establish him as actually being a caring parent, and not having created the Bet for some bigger plan than just "I want to see things happen".

Of course the assumption that Loki is telling the truth is a rather big one under the best of circumstances, but at least it's believable since shaking things up is usually in the portfolio of trickster gods.

EDIT:

It's interesting that Loki won't be honest with his daughter because it'll go against how he usually behaves, when just six strips ago he was explaining that he can do whatever he wants if it's most convenient for him. Don't see why this couldn't be justified the same way. (Plus, it's not like all his followers would find out about it.)

*Edit: missed a word

The way he phrases it gives the impression that it's less about whether he wants to be truthful or not and more that it's literally impossible for him. The comic has addressed this issue before, that gods are heavily influenced by their believers.

Thor is a blonde even though he started out as a ginger because the mortals think of him as blonde, and Odin was turned into an idiot because in the last world everyone living in the North thought magic (his domain) was stupid and only used by stupid people.

[Ruck]

Wow, never actually witnessed the moment a comic went up before.

This went up right before my alarm went off this morning. Nice to be able to read over my morning coffee (especially since my current work project is also somewhat D&D / fantasy related).

Nothing too surprising in this one, although it lays out Loki's motivations nicely and gives us extra stakes for our heroes. (And maybe extra motivation for Thor to bend the rules, if it becomes necessary.)

[Composer99]

There's a timely reminder that, hey, y'all, Loki's still chaotic evil.

[Tvtyrant]

It's interesting that Loki won't be honest with his daughter because it'll go against how he usually behaves, when just six strips ago he was explaining that he can do whatever he wants if it's most convenient for him. Don't see why this couldn't be justified the same way. (Plus, it's not like all his followers would find out about it.)

*Edit: missed a word

I think the issue is that he can't really tell the truth because he lies so often no one would believe it. He also says outright that she would probably try to stop them saving trillions of future lives out of spite, so telling her is counterproductive at best.

[Ruck]

Last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) Neutral Evil is fotti g for a goddess of death, and disease.
Who's fotti g? Is she the Italian Cardi B?

[Tarthalion]

I’m interested to hear Loki describe himself as having half a billion people who think he’s incapable of telling the truth. That’s a lot of people! Bigger than I had thought for the whole OOTS world, though it’s certainly possible that Loki was exaggerating to make a point.

It's a fictional world, so obviously it can have any population that the author wants, but the pre-industrial population of our world peaked at about half a billion, so my head canon has the population of all thinking peoples in the OOTS world at or below that level. So it requires that they all believe in Loki and believe he's incapable of telling the truth.

So, I'm going to say it's hyperbole from Loki - just because he can tell the truth to Thor doesn't mean he does, so there's no need to take his believer estimates as even remotely accurate.

[Cazero]

There's a timely reminder that, hey, y'all, Loki's still chaotic evil.
What tipped you off? The fact he's the god of thieves and cutthroats or him gambling with people's lives and afterlives for funsies?

[The Giant]

It's interesting that Loki won't be honest with his daughter because it'll go against how he usually behaves, when just six strips ago he was explaining that he can do whatever he wants if it's most convenient for him. Don't see why this couldn't be justified the same way. (Plus, it's not like all his followers would find out about it.)

*Edit: missed a word

This is a misunderstanding of what Loki is saying.

He's not saying he can't say something because his followers would find out and be upset. He's saying that he is physically constructed from the beliefs of his followers (and the broader public), and thus because his followers believe he is incapable of honesty, he actually is incapable of honesty (except to Thor). Everything is made up of ideas, even him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)

As far as Loki saying just six strips ago that he can do whatever he wants: he is incapable of honesty (except to Thor).

[Gnoman]

There are 10,000,000+ Dwarves (according to Hel), and Dwarves are usually a relatively minor race. Half a billion is probably too many for the Northern Pantheon, because it would screw up Hel's plan*, but it is not unreasonable for the world as a whole.




*The value of (Nondwarven Northern souls/11 non-Hel gods) must be significantly less that 10 million for getting every last Dwarf to be enough for her to take over. This would cap the North at >100 million. However, what we've seen suggests that the North is less heavily populated than the other two deitic regions.

[Cazero]

*The value of (Nondwarven Northern souls/11 non-Hel gods) 17*, not 11. That's a significant change to the maths.
edit : *even more if we count demigods

[masamune1]

This is a misunderstanding of what Loki is saying.

He's not saying he can't say something because his followers would find out and be upset. He's saying that he is physically constructed from the beliefs of his followers (and the broader public), and thus because his followers believe he is incapable of honesty, he actually is incapable of honesty (except to Thor). Everything is made up of ideas, even him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)

As far as Loki saying just six strips ago that he can do whatever he wants: he is incapable of honesty (except to Thor).

Kind of a chicken-and-egg problem though, isn't it?

If the gods created the world and all the people and souls in it, then who thought of the gods?

(or is the answer a Giant called Rich?)

[KorvinStarmast]

Half a billion people down there believe I'm incapable of honesty. Do you think I can go against that when its inconvnient? At last we see Loki in a more three dimensional sense.
I like how Loki can only tell the truth to Thor because he's rubbing Thor's face in being wrong. Just like how Odin's still not quite right from his time of northerners not believing in magic, Loki is sort-of controlled by the beliefs of his followers. Nice comparison. :smallsmile:

I liked this strip a lot.
It resets the gods into their usual roles, to include Loki warning Thor that if Hel dies before the next world is created, there will be trouble.

The only thing you'll know for sure is that you'll never see me coming.
And to underscore Loki's "lying is what I do" point we compare

Especially once I knew we were doing yet another boring fantasy pastiche for this one
with
Let's give these entertaining little buggers one more chance to clean up this mess before we do it for them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html). He's only interested in the defeat of the Snarl in that appeal to In summary: Vote Loki 2016 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) but is presenting it as something else.

Internally consistent. Nice job, Giant. :smallsmile:

[Gift Jeraff]

17*, not 11. That's a significant change to the maths.
edit : *even more if we count demigods

Not to mention there are probably a lot of souls that don't end up in a god's domain like Roy or the archfiends' souls.

Plus the OOTS world has the major races duplicated as aquatic and subterranean variants. Rich can always just say "there are 100 million merfolk" or "there are only 100 thousand merfolk" if he ever accidentally throws out a number that's too big or too small.

[Onkeldata]

Kind of a chicken-and-egg problem though, isn't it?

If the gods created the world and all the people and souls in it, then who thought of the gods?

(or is the answer a Giant called Rich?)

We have seen Odin still suffering from the beliefs in the last world. So, the answer is: it's a process. And, don't ask for the begiining and the ending, because that way lies madness. And lot's of quantum...

Edit: missing an e and a .

[RatElemental]

Kind of a chicken-and-egg problem though, isn't it?

If the gods created the world and all the people and souls in it, then who thought of the gods?

(or is the answer a Giant called Rich?)

There seems to be some level of ontological inertia for the gods. They need mortals believing in them to continue to exist, yes, but all established gods that have made it through a destruction and creation cycle have some resources they can fall back on when there are no mortals.

So the answer is "The mortals of the previous few worlds did enough thinking they can afford to not be thought about for a bit."

[The Pilgrim]

Given the color of the portal Thor and Loki are leaving, Hel's place seems to be in the Neutral Evil plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html). That nails her alignment.

[hroþila]

Kind of a chicken-and-egg problem though, isn't it?

If the gods created the world and all the people and souls in it, then who thought of the gods?

(or is the answer a Giant called Rich?)
That question has troubled philosophers and theologians for millennia. OotS is probably not the place to look for an answer to it.

[Worldsong]

Kind of a chicken-and-egg problem though, isn't it?

If the gods created the world and all the people and souls in it, then who thought of the gods?

(or is the answer a Giant called Rich?)

In all fairness that isn't much different from the recurring question of "how did existence get started".

[Resileaf]

Kind of a chicken-and-egg problem though, isn't it?

If the gods created the world and all the people and souls in it, then who thought of the gods?

(or is the answer a Giant called Rich?)

The gods existed first, but the belief of their followers and non-followers will directly affect their existence whether they like it or not. If, for some reason, the public at large believed that Thor was blond-haired instead of ginger, Thor's hair color would change in response. In the same way, the gods rely on that very same belief to exist, as faith serve as food for them.

Remember that gods do not have direct communication with their followers. Aside from telling them their agenda, no one ever meets the gods face-to-face unless it's for a vital, world-shaking reason (like Durkon). Which means that most people don't actually know what the gods are like, so they fill in the gaps with what they themselves believe, and some ideas catch on and everybody start believing that.

[The Giant]

Kind of a chicken-and-egg problem though, isn't it?

If the gods created the world and all the people and souls in it, then who thought of the gods?

Except we know the answer to the chicken and the egg. The egg predated avian life by millions of years, and beyond that, the chicken as we know it is a domesticated form of the red junglefowl of Southeast Asia. At some point, an almost-chicken junglefowl laid an egg with what we would consider a chicken in it.

In a similar way, the fact that the gods are the way they are now does not preclude them having existed in some other form in the past—one that we might not have thought of as "gods." It's just that the mechanism for change isn't reproduction and evolution. Or rather, it's memetic evolution, not genetic.

EDIT: I also think you're forgetting that the gods originated "from beyond the chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)." Their initial creation and/or ascension would involve how things work in that other place, wherever that might be, and has little bearing on the story.

[Fyraltari]

That question has troubled philosophers and theologians for millennia. OotS is probably not the place to look for an answer to it.

I’m pretty sure that the idea of gods being shaped by their followers’ beliefs instead of being objective realities the way mortals are is a recent-ish fantasy invention.

[Garwain]

Poor Durkon. His responsibility is even bigger than he knows:

Save the world
save the universe potentially forever
save Hell
save Thor from Loki's retaliation and the potential Divine Vendetta that rises from it.

All on the shoulders of a stick figure.

PS: I admire the narrative contructions that have made this 'Role Reversal' possible. Internally consistent and believable.

[hroþila]

I’m pretty sure that the idea of gods being shaped by their followers’ beliefs instead of being objective realities the way mortals are is a recent-ish fantasy invention.
But the broader question is, "If the gods created the world, what created the gods?", or "What was there before the world, and how could nothing lead to something?". This thing with belief is just a spin on it.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's just that the mechanism for change isn't reproduction and evolution. Or rather, it's memetic evolution, not genetic. *golf clap* :smallsmile:

(We'll set aside the scene where Thor is holding a beer and has his arm around a goddess since reproduction need not have been the motive there)

[GloatingSwine]

In all fairness that isn't much different from the recurring question of "how did existence get started".

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

[Rezby]

Anyway - while I never really thought about it much before, the concept of deities putting faith in their clerics (which I suppose can be taken multiple ways!) is definitely interesting. Makes you wonder how far forward they can see. Odin's seemingly cryptic statements suggests he might see farther than his children - is that due to his portfolio, him having originated his pantheon, both, or something else?

Odin canonically traded his eye for a number of things, one of which included future vision. It’s how he knew about Ragnarok, a thing that had yet to pass. I’d imagine comic Odin having a similar ability would make a lot of sense.

[Fyraltari]

But the broader question is, "If the gods created the world, what created the gods?", or "What was there before the world, and how could nothing lead to something?". This thing with belief is just a spin on it.

*Looks at ten-foot-pole.*
Nope, still too short to touch this with it.

[Tvtyrant]

In all fairness that isn't much different from the recurring question of "how did existence get started".

Unreality got bored. Nothingness is being a teenager in a small town on a Sunday night, somethingness is being 21 at a club in a major city. So many particles bumping together on the dance floor.

[AutomatedTeller]

"There seems to be some sort of doctrinal flexibility..." is one of those great lines I love this comic for.

I also love that this subtlely showing the symbiosis between gods and mortals.

[hroþila]

*Looks at ten-foot-pole.*
Nope, still too short to touch this with it.
That's for the best. The proper venue to ponder these questions is high on someone's floor at 1 am.

[Roland Itiative]

I just loved how this comic nailed the "gods are forced into being what they are by the belief of mortals" thing, and how that relates to the title just as much as Thor's final line. They may be all-powerful and the makers of the world, but the mortals also control them.

[linkhyrule5]

Poor Durkon. His responsibility is even bigger than he knows:

Save the world
save the universe potentially forever
save Hell
save Thor from Loki's retaliation and the potential Divine Vendetta that rises from it.

All on the shoulders of a stick figure.

PS: I admire the narrative contructions that have made this 'Role Reversal' possible. Internally consistent and believable.

Actually, I think he does know? Or like, I read that last bit as a hint that Thor intentionally let Durkon hear his conversation with Loki, for the same reason he 'accidentally let slip that Xykon has an Astral fortress.

[Garwain]

Except we know the answer to the chicken and the egg. The egg predated avian life by millions of years, and beyond that, the chicken as we know it is a domesticated form of the red junglefowl of Southeast Asia. At some point, an almost-chicken junglefowl laid an egg with what we would consider a chicken in it.

In a similar way, the fact that the gods are the way they are now does not preclude them having existed in some other form in the past. It's just that the mechanism for change isn't reproduction and evolution. Or rather, it's memetic evolution, not genetic.

Except we know the answer to the god and the goblin. The goblin predated the divine life of the Dark One by the lifespan of one goblin. And beyond that, the Dark One as we know it is a divine form of a purple goblin of the Eastern Continent. At some point, an almost-god goblin ascended with what we would consider a bunch of devoted worshippers.

Edited to correct some factual errors that degraded my attempt to be funny.

[Crusher]

On the bright side, I think Durkon's chance of remaining a statue is around zero.

[Schroeswald]

*golf clap* :smallsmile:

(We'll set aside the scene where Thor is holding a beer and has his arm around a goddess since reproduction need not have been the motive there)

He did knock up Freya.

[Schroeswald]

Except we know the answer to the god and the goblin. The goblin predated the divine life of the Dark One by the lifespan of one goblin. And beyond that, the Dark One as we know it is a divine form of a green goblin of the Western Continent. At some point, an almost-god goblin ascended with what we would consider a bunch of devoted worshippers.

TDO was a purple goblin.

[Fyraltari]

Except we know the answer to the god and the goblin. The goblin predated the divine life of the Dark One by the lifespan of one goblin. And beyond that, the Dark One as we know it is a divine form of a green goblin of the Western Continent. At some point, an almost-god goblin ascended with what we would consider a bunch of devoted worshippers.

The Dark One was born with purple skin according to his high priest. And why the Western Continent? There seems to be zero goblin presence over there (at least none that we’ve seen).

[Tvtyrant]

One thing this strip makes me think about is the possibility of Gods that just never got involved. They would be way weaker then the current gods, but not wanting to lose your identity is a legit reason not to be involved in universe making.

[hroþila]

TDO was a purple goblin.
*TDO is believed to have been a purple goblin, so he is a purple goblin god.

[ruy343]

I just wanted to pop in to say that Thor's quote in the last panel...


*sigh* Well Durkon... now we're even, I guess.

Now it's time for me to put my faith in you.

That quote gave me chills. Superb! Bravo!

[Fyraltari]

One thing this strip makes me think about is the possibility of Gods that just never got involved. They would be way weaker then the current gods, but not wanting to lose your identity is a legit reason not to be involved in universe making.

They would have starved to death from lack of divine food a looooong time ago.

[KorvinStarmast]

He did knock up Freya.
Arrgh, I am having trouble findind that particular strip.

[PirateMonk]

Wait, how did Loki not see Hel's plan coming? They blow up the world and claim the souls every time the Snarl doesn't get to them first, so it should be obvious that letting Hel claim a disproportionate share of souls would give her a big boost, especially to someone with divine mental capacity. And it doesn't even necessarily require Hel's involvement: if the Dark One were yellow, red, or blue, Loki would have voted to destroy the world himself without Hel lifting a finger. Did he not expect the dwarf population to get so large? Did he not bother to do the comparison of their population to 1/17th of the rest of the Northern population?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait, how did Loki not see Hel's plan coming?

He also didn't know that Thor would successfully create the dwarven devoted-to-duty race.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

Arrgh, I am having trouble findind that particular strip.
I forget how late it was, I thought it was in the Dungeon and I found it at Kazumi and Daigo’s wedding.

[Fyraltari]

Wait a minute, Hel doesn’t know Loki’s motivation because he can’t tell her and she wouldn’t trust Thor. Are these two the only Northern Gods trying to make peace with the Dark One? Out of 18? This is worse than I thought...


Wait, how did Loki not see Hel's plan coming?

Because he wanted to see what would happen. He did it purely for the lulz. Trying to guess what she would do would spoil his fun.

[The Pilgrim]

One thing this strip makes me think about is the possibility of Gods that just never got involved. They would be way weaker then the current gods, but not wanting to lose your identity is a legit reason not to be involved in universe making.

This may be another reason why Clerics are important to Gods. Trough the Clerics, the Gods can shape the way Mortals believe them to be, and thus keep their identity.

Not being involved would be, in fact, the worst course of action. Because that means you are letting the clerics of the other Gods to influence how mortals believe you are.

Which, if you think about it, may be one more problem Hel is facing in this world's tenure. She has no clerics to tell people how great she is, there are only clerics telling people she is a lame lazy godess that doesn't even care about granting spells.

[Stabbey]

This is a misunderstanding of what Loki is saying.

He's not saying he can't say something because his followers would find out and be upset. He's saying that he is physically constructed from the beliefs of his followers (and the broader public), and thus because his followers believe he is incapable of honesty, he actually is incapable of honesty (except to Thor). Everything is made up of ideas, even him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)

As far as Loki saying just six strips ago that he can do whatever he wants: he is incapable of honesty (except to Thor).

Someone who is literally incapable of telling the truth would be bad at deception because that would make them predictable. Being predictable is a poor quality for a trickster god. An actual trickster could switch between truth telling and lying in such a way that you can never be sure if they're lying or not, but that requires that they are also capable of honesty at times.

EDIT: And also if Loki is literally incapable of telling the truth, I am unclear about how Hilgaya's prayer to learn Durkon's location was answered.

EDIT 2: Wait, "honesty" and "lies" - those might not be the same thing. ...If by "incapable of honesty", do you mean "is technically capable of telling the truth, but only in a way which furthers dishonesty"?

[renovator]

So if everyone knows he always lies ,... doesn't tha means , but ...he
So we now know why there aren't many Loki clerics around - you need 18 + intelligence to work out his logic

[Hekko]

There are 10,000,000+ Dwarves (according to Hel), and Dwarves are usually a relatively minor race. Half a billion is probably too many for the Northern Pantheon, because it would screw up Hel's plan*, but it is not unreasonable for the world as a whole.




*The value of (Nondwarven Northern souls/11 non-Hel gods) must be significantly less that 10 million for getting every last Dwarf to be enough for her to take over. This would cap the North at >100 million. However, what we've seen suggests that the North is less heavily populated than the other two deitic regions.

I was thinking Loki might count also an unknown number of dead believers whose Belief he hasn't fully digested yet (so it still shapes him).


Someone who is literally incapable of telling the truth would be bad at deception because that would make them predictable. Being predictable is a poor quality for a trickster god. An actual trickster could switch between truth telling and lying in such a way that you can never be sure if they're lying or not, but that requires that they are also capable of honesty at times.

EDIT: And also if Loki is literally incapable of telling the truth, I am unclear about how Hilgaya's prayer to learn Durkon's location was answered.

Telling the truth and being honest are not the same thing. I think Loki is capable of saying the truth when it furthers his scheme; he can mix in truth with lies to deliver the dishonest message.

[Fyraltari]

Someone who is literally incapable of telling the truth would be bad at deception because that would make them predictable. Being predictable is a poor quality for a trickster god. An actual trickster could switch between truth telling and lying in such a way that you can never be sure if they're lying or not, but that requires that they are also capable of honesty at times.

He is unable to be honest. Not unable to tell the truth. That means he can’t be sincere about his motives or his feelings, but he won’t pop like a balloon if he said the sky was blue.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The problem with a Trickster is that they can lie in many different forms, which means you need to guess right. Sometimes, even stating the truth can be a lie, depending on phrasing and intonation (the five of us never left these cells, and your locks are defective).

[Grey Watcher]

What's the black sphere though?

The outside wall/boundary/whatever of Hel's personal domain, I presume.

Also, Loki's motivations for The Bet are the worst of the various theroies I'd entertained: just for the lulz, no attempt to teach Hel a lesson (however ugly the means chosen), no long term plan to keep a dangerous loose-cannon in check. Just classic "Loki's an ass for no real reason." (Not a criticism of the writing, just an observation of the character.)

[Fyraltari]

The problem with a Trickster is that they can lie in many different forms, which means you need to guess right. Sometimes, even stating the truth can be a lie, depending on phrasing and intonation (the five of us never left these cells, and your locks are defective).

Fun fact: ‘‘I never said she took my money’’ has seven different meanings depending on which word you stress.

[The Giant]

Someone who is literally incapable of telling the truth would be bad at deception because that would make them predictable. Being predictable is a poor quality for a trickster god. An actual trickster could switch between truth telling and lying in such a way that you can never be sure if they're lying or not, but that requires that they are also capable of honesty at times.

"Honesty" is a broader concept than "not lying." If Loki tells the truth in the cause of trickery, he is still not being honest. Walking back in there and laying his cards on the table and coming clean requires more than just not lying, it requires total honesty. And thus he cannot do it.

In other words: Loki can tell the truth to deceive someone, but he wouldn't be wanting to deceive Hel in this instance—so he can't tell the truth. It also means that he couldn't find some way to lie for the purposes of genuinely enlightening her. His intent matters more than the truth value of the words coming out of his mouth.


He is unable to be honest. Not unable to tell the truth. That means he can’t be sincere about his motives or his feelings, but he won’t pop like a balloon if he said the sky was blue.

This, exactly.

[Tvtyrant]

This may be another reason why Clerics are important to Gods. Trough the Clerics, the Gods can shape the way Mortals believe them to be, and thus keep their identity.

Not being involved would be, in fact, the worst course of action. Because that means you are letting the clerics of the other Gods to influence how mortals believe you are.

Which, if you think about it, may be one more problem Hel is facing in this world's tenure. She has no clerics to tell people how great she is, there are only clerics telling people she is a lame lazy godess that doesn't even care about granting spells.

Clerics are elaborate Public Relations advisors. It all makes sense now :)

[Psychronia]

Welp. There goes any sliver of hope that Loki had a remotely passable reason for this whole bet. Chances were slim to begin with since it's Loki, but since he's been portrayed as quite reasonable up until now, I was hoping he'd have a proper endgame.

It's officially "For the lulz, oh wait, a new quiddity, you say?"

I want to say that threatening Thor over what is essentially his own fault is unreasonable, but I guess that's why he has followers like Hilgya.

I do find it fascinating that Loki is actually incapable of telling the truth though. In a way, he's just as psychologically crippled as Odin. I'm reminded of Haley during her breakdown, and a little of Ian.
You are what you eat indeed...

[Stabbey]

"Honesty" is a broader concept than "not lying." If Loki tells the truth in the cause of trickery, he is still not being honest. Walking back in there and laying his cards on the table and coming clean requires more than just not lying, it requires total honesty. And thus he cannot do it.

In other words: Loki can tell the truth to deceive someone, but he wouldn't be wanting to deceive Hel in this instance—so he can't tell the truth. His intent matters more than the truth value of the words coming out of his mouth.



This, exactly.

Okay, got it, thanks.

[Alaska Fan]

Access to Hel's domain.

I like how Loki can only tell the truth to Thor because he's rubbing Thor's face in being wrong. Just like how Odin's still not quite right from his time of northerners not believing in magic, Loki is sort-of controlled by the beliefs of his followers.

It looks very much like the idea globe "Nothing Matters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)," which is pretty appropriate for Hel's domain.

[Sutremaine]

Also, Loki's motivations for The Bet are the worst of the various theroies I'd entertained: just for the lulz, no attempt to teach Hel a lesson (however ugly the means chosen), no long term plan to keep a dangerous loose-cannon in check. Just classic "Loki's an ass for no real reason." (Not a criticism of the writing, just an observation of the character.)

Teach her a lesson for what?

[Fyraltari]

...I'm totally sigging this.

I aim to please.

[factotum]

Telling the truth and being honest are not the same thing.

I just went and looked up the definition of "honest" on dictionary.com, and not one of the definitions of the word directly involved "truth". Closest was probably the first definition, "honorable in principles, intentions and actions; upright and fair", but Loki not being any of that definitely doesn't preclude him lying or telling the truth as suits his purposes. Problem is, the listener has no way of knowing what things he's saying are truth and which are lies, so they have to assume it's all lies unless proven otherwise.

It's definitely in character for Loki to be blaming Thor for something that's his own fault, though. He was the one who set up the Bet, presumably on the assumption that Chaotic Thor wouldn't be able to mould the dwarves into the rigidly honour-bound society they became, and now Thor has been very successful at that and it's endangering Hel's life, suddenly it's Thor's issue. Still don't quite understand why he can't just call off the bet if it's going to cause issues, but I guess it's a bit too late for that to help--Hel isn't suddenly going to get the legions of living clerics and worshippers she needs to survive the interregnum if the world is destroyed in the next few days.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I love Loki’s sense of pride in Hel for her plan. Very relieved, however, that he’s willing to put destroying the Snarl first (even though we conformation it’s not impossible for Hel to perish before the next world). It’s definitely an interesting twist for Thor to now really need Durkon to come through.

Also, thanks to the Giant for both the strip and the helpful answers in this thread!

[gatemansgc]

dang, was totally not expecting that from loki. though honestly i should have, cause he's LOKI.

but um, he just helped take away a century of dwarf souls from her? so he removed a century of fuel from her...

[Windscion]

No, Loki never actually bothered challenging. He just wanted an excuse to stay and prevent her from cheating.
Thor got one year's worth, which is minor, and nothing compared to the potential windfall she hopes for.

[137beth]

Wow, Loki's actions now make a lot more sense. The people who speculated that Loki made the bet to help Hel gain more power were right.

[locksmith of lo]

Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
Last panel. Neutral Evil is fotti g for a goddess of death, and disease.


Who's fotti g? Is she the Italian Cardi B?

can someone please answer this, because i am stumped as to what a "fotti g" is?

[Dion]

Teach her a lesson for what?

Also, have you ever seen a parent who does something unspeakably terrible to their child to “teach them a lesson”?

It’s literally worse than “for the lulz”, because the sick bastard parents actually try to convince the child they deserved the awful thing.

Yeah, “teaching someone a lesson” is the worse kind of evil, generally. I’m glad Loki is isn’t THAT evil.

[Emanick]

can someone please answer this, because i am stumped as to what a "fotti g" is?

‘Fitting,’ I assume.

[Resileaf]

Wow, Loki's actions now make a lot more sense. The people who speculated that Loki made the bet to help Hel gain more power were right.

No, they were wrong, Loki specifically states that he made the bet to make things interesting in this world. He's impressed by Hel using that bet to make a bid to become stronger for the next world, but he didn't plan for that to happen.

[Messenger]

Been thinking about how OotS' deities are shaped by the beliefs of their followers specific to Loki here. I was pondering, "But the point of any liar is NOT that they can't tell the truth but that they're willing to lie as as much as they're capable of speaking the truth where it will gain them some advantage or benefit- which is exactly Loki's philosophy of "Do whatever's best for you."

But where Loki has thus gained a reputation for lying and trickery, people assume that he's completely incapable of being honest rather than the more advantageous and more complex trait of saying whatever will benefit him. So now he actually can't be honest. Thus what was supposed to give Loki power over others is now a burden and hindrance to him even on a metaphysical level.

In short, he got what the lying shepherd from "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", but in spades.

This all makes me wonder how much power OotS gods actually have if, in the end, they are bound by the mortals (or the belief of mortals) they rule over.

[Pax_Chi]

You know, this also explains another aspect of the Thor / Loki dynamic, namely why Loki hangs around with Thor so much despite their vastly different personalities, alignments and so forth.

Thor is literally the only person Loki can have an honest conversation with.

[Peelee]

‘Fitting,’ I assume.

Ayep. Phone didn't like that word, it seemed.

[Fyraltari]

This, exactly.
Well, this is going into my signature. :smallamused:

It's definitely in character for Loki to be blaming Thor for something that's his own fault, though.
He's not. He is "motivating" Thor.

Still don't quite understand why he can't just call off the bet if it's going to cause issues.
There's a good chanve it is baked into the metaphysics of this world and thus cannot be called out without destroying the world which would be counterproductive.



Also I just realized, if many gods share Loki's lack of appreciation for the world and if Thor's plan works, they might decide to blow it up later down the line once the Dark One is well-fed enough to survive the interorbis and build a new prison for the Snarl, one more to their collective liking.

Also Loki is willing to sacrifice Hel to cage the Snarl, that's cold.

Also, also I wonder where they are both headed.

[Grey Watcher]

Teach her a lesson for what?

That was one of the details that had yet to be revealed (at least until the entire theory was jossed), but to paraphrase another post I read from sometime back, this all might have been an elaborate "Eat your vegetables"-type lesson.

[JT]

But the broader question is, "If the gods created the world, what created the gods?", or "What was there before the world, and how could nothing lead to something?". This thing with belief is just a spin on it.

In the beginning, there was a cow and a salt lick.
The salt, saliva, and warm breath from the cow gave rise to the gods, and to all the worlds.

Simple. (and stop looking at that cow!)

[RatElemental]

I do have to wonder, if the snarl is sealed away for good and this world goes on forever, wouldn't Hel die anyway? I mean if she went from "able to make it between worlds" to "maybe not able to make it between worlds" I don't see her position improving if the status quo goes on forever.

[Sutremaine]

Yeah, “teaching someone a lesson” is the worse kind of evil, generally. I’m glad Loki is isn’t THAT evil.
I'm aware of the connotations of 'teaching someone a lesson', yes. My question was "why do that?". Loki is aware that the gods each have their own personality bounds. They are shaped by what mortals believe of them, and while they might have their individual thoughts on that shaping they can't really change that. There's no direct evidence in-comic for gods being bound to a realm, portfolio, or area in the alignment chart, but I feel that is the case.

A really Evil or vindictive god might frame their acts against another god as teaching them a lesson, but I think they'd know enough about the nature of godhood to be aware that it was a convenient label for their real motives.

[JT]

can someone please answer this, because i am stumped as to what a "fotti g" is?

“fitting”

Auto-corrupt is not your fiend.

[Fyraltari]

I do have to wonder, if the snarl is sealed away for good and this world goes on forever, wouldn't Hel die anyway? I mean if she went from "able to make it between worlds" to "maybe not able to make it between worlds" I don't see her position improving if the status quo goes on forever.

Yes, Loki is throwing her under the bus here.

[D.One]

One interesting thing about Loki's words about how the gods work:

They serve to confirm something about Dvalin. It's not just that he want to follow procedure and ask the council what to do. It's not that he chose to adhere to whatever the council votes within procedure. It's just that he can't do otherwise.

[Jasdoif]

I do have to wonder, if the snarl is sealed away for good and this world goes on forever, wouldn't Hel die anyway? I mean if she went from "able to make it between worlds" to "maybe not able to make it between worlds" I don't see her position improving if the status quo goes on forever.I suppose it would depend on the population growth of dwarves and how many more years' worth of souls she cedes.

[Rrmcklin]

I do have to wonder, if the snarl is sealed away for good and this world goes on forever, wouldn't Hel die anyway? I mean if she went from "able to make it between worlds" to "maybe not able to make it between worlds" I don't see her position improving if the status quo goes on forever.

She wouldn't be in good shape, but I don't see why she'd die. With the status quo she's still getting something even if it's not the most balanced diet. What Thor and Loki were talking about is her not being able to last during a period when she's getting literally nothing.

[D.One]

She wouldn't be in good shape, but I don't see why she'd die. With the status quo she's still getting something even if it's not the most balanced diet. What Thor and Loki were talking about is her not being able to last during a period when she's getting literally nothing.

I wonder if it's possible for a god to share some of his energies with another, if Loki could (if his ethos permited so) share some worship and soulpower with Hel in order to save her.

[RatElemental]

I wonder if it's possible for a god to share some of his energies with another, if Loki could (if his ethos permited so) share some worship and soulpower with Hel in order to save her.

If that were possible I expect the gods would have thought of that as a way to help the dark one through the interim period.

[Fyraltari]

If that were possible I expect the gods would have thought of that as a way to help the dark one through the interim period.

Problem is TDO doesn't want anything to do with the old gods and doesn't know how long the Snarl's rampages usually are, nor would he believe them if they told him.

[KorvinStarmast]

I want to say that threatening Thor over what is essentially his own fault is unreasonable, but I guess that's why he has followers like Hilgya. She is a good and faithful servant, eh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html)? :smallcool:
{:LokiFace:} I want to be mad, but her faith in my teachings is just so pure!


I do find it fascinating that Loki is actually incapable of telling the truth though. In a way, he's just as psychologically crippled as Odin. I'm reminded of Haley during her breakdown, and a little of Ian. You are what you eat indeed. That seems to be a consistent theme.

[Worldsong]

Problem is TDO doesn't want anything to do with the old gods and doesn't know how long the Snarl's rampages usually are, nor would he believe them if they told him.

Also he's got a unique quiddity so even if it worked with fellow pantheon members he'd still uniquely be incapable of receiving aid in such a manner.

[Schroeswald]

Problem is TDO doesn't want anything to do with the old gods and doesn't know how long the Snarl's rampages usually are, nor would he believe them if they told him.

I think that Loki and TDO’s relationship is much more interesting with this revelation, Loki was probably dodgy about his plan to Rat and the other Evil gods so it’s easy to spill the beans, and he couldn’t bring himself to be honest with the Dark One, which might be when he realized he couldn’t be honest at all.

[KorvinStarmast]

dang, was totally not expecting that from loki. though honestly i should have, cause he's LOKI. but um, he just helped take away a century of dwarf souls from her? so he removed a century of fuel from her... I don't think he did that, he just threatened to.

[mjasghar]

I’m pretty sure that the idea of gods being shaped by their followers’ beliefs instead of being objective realities the way mortals are is a recent-ish fantasy invention.
{scrubbed}

[Resileaf]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

And that's where the conversation should be left lest it stumbles into real life stuff.

[AchtungNight]

Pity Thor’s not humming a certain Sting song in regards to followers like Durkon. I would be, were I in his place. :)

[AJ the Ronin]

I’m pretty sure that the idea of gods being shaped by their followers’ beliefs instead of being objective realities the way mortals are is a recent-ish fantasy invention.

I think the first time I saw the trope was in Neil Gaiman's The Sandman back in the 90's. Something that he further expanded in American Gods.

I mean, the whole, how the gods look to mortal thing is straight of how in the Sandman mortals perceive the Endless.

[gatemansgc]

You know, this also explains another aspect of the Thor / Loki dynamic, namely why Loki hangs around with Thor so much despite their vastly different personalities, alignments and so forth.

Thor is literally the only person Loki can have an honest conversation with.

this makes a ton of sense, actually.

[KorvinStarmast]

this makes a ton of sense, actually. They are both chaotic (CG Thor vs CE-or-CN-pick-what-you-want-for-Loki) so their personalities are not all that different except for the critical difference.

I note up thread that someone picked out the "nothing matters" Neutral Evil for Hell's domain. Works for me. Hmm, I just noticed the Lulz blob has an orange tinge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html). Wonder if that's Loki's domain.

[Goblin_Priest]

I just wanted to pop in to say that Thor's quote in the last panel...



That quote gave me chills. Superb! Bravo!

Looks like Durkon is about to ascend! He's got Belief!

[Ruck]

You know, this also explains another aspect of the Thor / Loki dynamic, namely why Loki hangs around with Thor so much despite their vastly different personalities, alignments and so forth.

Thor is literally the only person Loki can have an honest conversation with.

Heh, now I'm thinking of a certain scene in Catch Me If You Can. "You have no one else to call!"

[Peelee]

Heh, now I'm thinking of a certain scene in Catch Me If You Can. "You have no one else to call!"

That was a damn good movie, if heavily dramatized from real life.

[Schroeswald]

They are both chaotic (CG Thor vs CE-or-CN-pick-what-you-want-for-Loki) so their personalities are not all that different except for the critical difference.

I note up thread that someone picked out the "nothing matters" Neutral Evil for Hell's domain. Works for me. Hmm, I just noticed the Lulz blob has an orange tinge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html). Wonder if that's Loki's domain.

I though we had already figured out Hel was Neutral Evil but nice to see some semi-confirmation, and yeah Lulz is definitely Loki’s house.

[Fyraltari]

They are both chaotic (CG Thor vs CE-or-CN-pick-what-you-want-for-Loki) so their personalities are not all that different except for the critical difference.
Thor: "You were gone too soon Laser Snail."
Loki: "I should be helping slam dunk this clichéd* world in the trash where it belongs so my daughter can ride a tidal wave of dead dwarves to victory."

Tells you anything you need to know about these two.


I note up thread that someone picked out the "nothing matters" Neutral Evil for Hell's domain. Works for me. Hmm, I just noticed the Lulz blob has an orange tinge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html). Wonder if that's Loki's domain.

These are the Outer Planes, the gods live there but the Planes don't belong to any one of them. According to Hilgya Loki lives in Valhalla with Thor, anyway.

*"Clichéd"? Is cliché an English verb now?

[knag]

This is the first time the Giant has used the same title for a 3rd strip. Guess he's really into Role play. :smalltongue:

[Rogar Demonblud]

“fitting”

Auto-corrupt is not your fiend.

If I did sigs, I would sig this so hard.

[masamune1]

Except we know the answer to the chicken and the egg. The egg predated avian life by millions of years, and beyond that, the chicken as we know it is a domesticated form of the red junglefowl of Southeast Asia. At some point, an almost-chicken junglefowl laid an egg with what we would consider a chicken in it.

In a similar way, the fact that the gods are the way they are now does not preclude them having existed in some other form in the past—one that we might not have thought of as "gods." It's just that the mechanism for change isn't reproduction and evolution. Or rather, it's memetic evolution, not genetic.

EDIT: I also think you're forgetting that the gods originated "from beyond the chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)." Their initial creation and/or ascension would involve how things work in that other place, wherever that might be, and has little bearing on the story.

So does that mean that the gods can survive without worship, but worships somehow enhances or affects them anyway due to the rules of the 'verse being different from beyond the chaos?

Or does it mean that the gods have actually tied their very existence to worship now which balances out their godly power?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

*"Clichéd"? Is cliché an English verb now?

Everything can be an English verb. You could say their verbs have been everythinged, even.

ETA:

This is the first time the Giant has used the same title for a 3rd strip. Guess he's really into Role play. :smalltongue:


Eleventh Doctor: ...It's not working.
Tenth Doctor: [annoyed face] ...We're both reversing the polarity.
Eleven: Yes, I know that.
Ten: There's two of us. I'm reversing it, you're reversing it back again. We're confusing the polarity!

Grey Wolf

[JumboWheat01]

Dad of the Year material, there.

[factotum]

I mean, the whole, how the gods look to mortal thing is straight of how in the Sandman mortals perceive the Endless.

I'm not sure it's quite the same. In the Sandman, the way the Endless are perceived is entirely a function of who's looking at them--so the Martian Manhunter sees something different than a modern-day Earthly mortal does, and Nada sees something else again. Dream's personality is the same in all cases, though. The belief in the Stickverse seems to actually shape how the gods look and act for everyone, so even someone who believes Thor should have ginger hair will see him as blond if they meet him, because that's the majority viewpoint over many years.

[Cazero]

Everything can be an English verb. You could say their verbs have been everythinged, even.
Excuse me, but I believe you're using language wrong. I dare claim that one ought to say that everything has been verbed.

[sleepy hedgehog]

Everything can be an English verb. You could say their verbs have been everythinged, even.
Grey Wolf
Yeah we really like to verb everything.

My predictions have been pretty on point.
If you look at it from the perspective of the gods.
It's not that different from meeting up with your friends and playing board/card games.
Just replace "souls" for "fun".

[KorvinStarmast]

*"Clichéd"? Is cliché an English verb now? I am pretty sure that is an adjective.
marked by or abounding in clichés
That usage is a few decades old. At least. I recall seeing it in both movie criticism and literary criticism. I'll check to see its origin.

EDIT: Apparently, 1925 is the first cited usage. Synonym is hackneyed.

My source is Merriam Webster, not sure what OED citations would be for that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Excuse me, but I believe you're using language wrong. I dare claim that one ought to say that everything has been verbed.

To toot my own horn:

English: so broken, you technically cannot use it wrong.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

I am pretty sure that is an adjective. That usage is a few decades old. At least. I recall seeing it in both movie criticism and literary criticism. I'll check to see its origin. (Appartnely, 1925) Synonym is hackneyed.

Cliché is the past particple of the French verb clicher which means "to click" (no longer in use, replaced by "cliquer"). It was substantized so that "un cliché" means a photograph and, by metaphor, a sterotype.

What confuses me is the d, that in English usually marks the past participle at the end of "clichéd". That implies that English use "to cliché" as a verb. I'm guessing to mean "filling something with clichés".

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm guessing to mean "filling something with clichés". Yes, that appears to be about the intended meaning.

In the last panel, I believe that we'll see no more of the gods for a while. Cut back to actions of the mortals in the next strip.

[Cazero]

To toot my own horn:

English: so broken, you technically cannot use it wrong.
Grey Wolf
Curses, foiled again ! How am I supposed to be pedantic now?
*shakes fist*


edit :

What confuses me is the d, that in English usually marks the past participle at the end of "clichéd". That implies that English use "to cliché" as a verb. I'm guessing to mean "filling something with clichés".
You missed the alternate possibility, "something filled with clichés", wich fits perfectly.

[Fyraltari]

In the last panel, I believe that we'll see no more of the gods for a while. Cut back to actions of the mortals in the next strip.
Yes, this looks like a way to mirror, this transition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html).

I like how we cut to and back to the gods through their devices to observe the world, Hel's basin does that a lot too.

EDIT:

You missed the alternate possibility, "something filled with clichés", wich fits perfectly.

A verb cannot mean "something that is X" that is an adjective or a noun. In order for "clichéd" to mean "something filledwith clichés", "to cliché" would need to mean "filling something with clichés".

[AJ the Ronin]

I'm not sure it's quite the same. In the Sandman, the way the Endless are perceived is entirely a function of who's looking at them--so the Martian Manhunter sees something different than a modern-day Earthly mortal does, and Nada sees something else again. Dream's personality is the same in all cases, though. The belief in the Stickverse seems to actually shape how the gods look and act for everyone, so even someone who believes Thor should have ginger hair will see him as blond if they meet him, because that's the majority viewpoint over many years.

It is not a 100% the same, true. Then again, the pantheons are not as defined as the Stickverse.

The gods do need worship, but unlike in the Sandman and American Gods, the Stickverse gods have the whole "worship me for power" thing set up and they don't find themselves pole dancing for some worship (well, Hel may end up doing that, who knows)

Like in Sandman, the gods without believers or forgotten gods are the dead gods (there is a line on how people and gods truly die when no one remembers them).

[Jasdoif]

A verb cannot mean "something that is X" that is an adjective or a noun. In order for "clichéd" to mean "something filledwith clichés", "to cliché" would need to mean "filling something with clichés"."Cliché" is used as a noun in English.

[The_Weirdo]

"The only thing you'll know for sure is that you'll never see it coming." - That is one badass threat.

[Fish]

There is some evidence that English should be classified as a creole language — that is, one formed by the co-mingling of two or more languages through close contact, borrowing the lexicon of both and simplifying the grammar as it goes. It has many of the hallmarks of other languages formed in this way. It’s not completely convincing, based on what we know of modern creole languages (not much).

The idea of “verbing” a non-verb comes from the ability in English to freely change a word’s part of speech without necessarily marking it. Normally we do this with Latin suffixes, like -al (noun to adj), -ness (adj to n), -ment (v to n). Sometimes we do it with stress (proJECT vs PROject). Other times we just say, “Meh, screw it, it’s a verb now.”

[Goblin_Priest]

Yes, this looks like a way to mirror, this transition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html).

I like how we cut to and back to the gods through their devices to observe the world, Hel's basin does that a lot too.

EDIT:


A verb cannot mean "something that is X" that is an adjective or a noun. In order for "clichéd" to mean "something filledwith clichés", "to cliché" would need to mean "filling something with clichés".

Like the verb "to murder", which means the act of committing a murder? :smalltongue:

[The MunchKING]

What a nice functional family. XD

What's the black sphere though?

Portal to/actually Helheim was how I read it. Loki's leaving Hel's domain and that's why he's coming out of the circle.


I’m interested to hear Loki describe himself as having half a billion people who think he’s incapable of telling the truth. That’s a lot of people! Bigger than I had thought for the whole OOTS world, though it’s certainly possible that Loki was exaggerating to make a point.

That whole "Incapable of telling the truth" thing. :smalltongue:


In the beginning, there was a cow and a salt lick.
The salt, saliva, and warm breath from the cow gave rise to the gods, and to all the worlds.

Simple. (and stop looking at that cow!)

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm… Cosmic Burgers!!



*"Clichéd"? Is cliché an English verb now?

Adjective?

I mean it is modifying "world" after all.

[Fyraltari]

"Cliché" is used as a noun in English.

As it is in French.

[The_Weirdo]

As it is in French.

{scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

There is some evidence that English should be classified as a creole language — that is, one formed by the co-mingling of two or more languages through close contact, borrowing the lexicon of both and simplifying the grammar as it goes. It has many of the hallmarks of other languages formed in this way. It’s not completely convincing, based on what we know of modern creole languages (not much).

The idea of “verbing” a non-verb comes from the ability in English to freely change a word’s part of speech without necessarily marking it. Normally we do this with Latin suffixes, like -al (noun to adj), -ness (adj to n), -ment (v to n). Sometimes we do it with stress (proJECT vs PROject). Other times we just say, “Meh, screw it, it’s a verb now.”


Like the verb "to murder", which means the act of committing a murder? :smalltongue:
Interesting. I had never thought of English as being a creole language but it does make sense.

Portal to/actually Helheim was how I read it. Loki's leaving Hel's domain and that's why he's coming out of the circle.
Looks like the Neutral Evil Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html).


Adjective?

I mean it is modifying "world" after all.
Then where did the "d" come from? Because this looks a lot like a past participle acting as an adjective as in "rented room" for example.

[Jasdoif]

Then where did the "d" come from? Because this looks a lot like a past participle acting as an adjective as in "rented room" for example.The use of an "-ed" suffix to treat a noun as an adjective isn't uncommon. Given that English's stance on word rules can be described as "Rules? There are no rules. There's barely any strategy!", I can't tell you if that's the direct form of the convention, if that's a shorthand for assuming any noun has an identically named verb equivalent, or whether the former is actually the latter.

[Fish]

A verb cannot mean "something that is X" that is an adjective or a noun. In order for "clichéd" to mean "something filledwith clichés", "to cliché" would need to mean "filling something with clichés".
Not necessarily. It is not unusual, at least in English, to find orphaned (or “defective”) verb forms, which only appear in one sense or syntactic context and in no other. The word “beware” only appears in infinitive or imperative form; it has no conjugated forms at all, such as isware*, wasware*, amware*, bewares*, bewared*, bewaring*, etc. Similar restrictions exist for “begone.” The verb “quoth” has no present-tense form; modal auxiliary verbs (can, could, may, might) have no infinitive form. English has no problem freely converting most nouns into verbs and then adding verb suffixes. One could say “I lightsabered the enemy” and there would be no grammatical objection to the non-existence of “to lightsaber” as a verb.

One could say that by adding the -(e)d to a noun, the noun-to-verb conversion is implied.

* Linguists mark non-grammatical and non-word forms with an asterisk.

[tigerusthegreat]

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1530876512-20180706.png

[Aetius]

"Who knew she had that much hustle?" Hel, the Nale that Tarquin always said he wanted (but probably didn't.)

I don't have anything to say about that line.
Just thought it needed quoting.


I’m interested to hear Loki describe himself as having half a billion people who think he’s incapable of telling the truth. That’s a lot of people! Bigger than I had thought for the whole OOTS world, though it’s certainly possible that Loki was exaggerating to make a point.

Well, you know who count's as people these days?

We're talking believe now - not worship or dedication. So this number probably includes everyone who is a creature with intelligence high enough to be self conscious, knows that Loki exists and that he is not a very honest person. I doesn't need to be a member of a major race ot even humanoid, it doesn't need to have any connection to the northern pantheon.
If that's true half a billion doesn't seem that far fetched.


That whole "Incapable of telling the truth" thing. :smalltongue:

Except he said it to Thor whom he can be honest wit.


It is unsettling how Loki refers to the world as belonging in the trash. For one of the creators of a world to think so little of it, of all the people living there, is callous in a way that neither Xykon nor the Snarl manages to achieve.

I still think when it comes to callousness Xykon takes the cake.
The only reason that Lych cares about the world is because it's where he keeps his stuff. Loki doesn't.
Let's see Loki thinking about destroying the outer planes once he get's really bored, then we'll talk.


"Honesty" is a broader concept than "not lying." If Loki tells the truth in the cause of trickery, he is still not being honest. Walking back in there and laying his cards on the table and coming clean requires more than just not lying, it requires total honesty. And thus he cannot do it.

Oh the irony!
Can't help but feel reminded of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html).

[Schroeswald]

"Rules? There are no rules. There's barely any strategy!"

In fact the most famous rule in english language is wrong most of the time, because english is Chaotic Evil.

[Fyraltari]

snip


snip


snip
You are all rotters and I hate you.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}

[Fish]

I have a bachelor’s degree in linguistics. You need anybody to talk your ear off about weird things in English, or in other languages, I’m your ... uh ... fish.

[Fyraltari]

I have a bachelor’s degree in linguistics. You need anybody to talk your ear off about weird things in English, or in other languages, I’m your ... uh ... fish.

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

[The MunchKING]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

Or Apples for that matter.

[Peelee]

Portal to/actually Helheim was how I read it.

I keep seeing this and I keep thinking it's a MCU reference or something. Isn't it just Hel in OotS? Hel lives in Hel? Or has that not been established and I don't know what I'm talking about?

[Fyraltari]

I keep seeing this and I keep thinking it's a MCU reference or something. Isn't it just Hel in OotS? Hel lives in Hel? Or has that not been established and I don't know what I'm talking about?

Helheim is often used across media to refers to Hel's domain (I think that is its litteral meaning) to avoid confusion. But yes, OOTS only calls it Hel and makes a couple joke about that.

[The_Weirdo]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

Abacaxi in (Brazilian) Portuguese.

[Fish]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.
Of course they do. They look like pineapples — that is, the “apples” (or seed-filled fruit) of the pine tree. The real question is why anyone thought a seed cone from a pine, a spiky inedible ball of woody petals, should be compared to an apple in the first place.

[Jasdoif]

I have a bachelor’s degree in linguistics. You need anybody to talk your ear off about weird things in English, or in other languages, I’m your ... uh ... fish.What's the deal with Esperanto? My first conscious exposure to the words "Esperanto" and "cliché" were (different) episodes* of Tiny Toon Adventures back in the 90s, so this isn't entirely random....


* The direct-to-video How I Spent My Summer Vacation was split into episode-length pieces for airing during a later season, so I think it counts.

[The_Weirdo]

What's the deal with Esperanto? My first conscious exposure to the words "Esperanto" and "cliché" were (different) episodes* of Tiny Toon Adventures back in the 90s, so this isn't entirely random....


* The direct-to-video How I Spent My Summer Vacation was split into episode-length pieces for airing during a later season, so I think it counts.

Esperanto is a well-intentioned, but misguided approach to linguistics and politics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

You’re blaming the wrong country there, I suspect. It’s also called pine in Spanish, probably because it kinda looks like a massive pinecone. English probably stole it from them, since they were first on the scene.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Abacaxi in (Brazilian) Portuguese.
Oh no, I was deceived (https://imgur.com/gallery/qXpeY)!

Of course they do. They look like pineapples — that is, the “apples” (or seed-filled fruit) of the pine tree. The real question is why anyone thought a seed cone from a pine, a spiky inedible ball of woody petals, should be compared to an apple in the first place.

Spitballing here, but maybe apple used to mean fruit before narrowing to one general fruit, like our own "pomme" used to?

[Thecommander236]

Except we know the answer to the chicken and the egg. The egg predated avian life by millions of years, and beyond that, the chicken as we know it is a domesticated form of the red junglefowl of Southeast Asia. At some point, an almost-chicken junglefowl laid an egg with what we would consider a chicken in it.

In a similar way, the fact that the gods are the way they are now does not preclude them having existed in some other form in the past—one that we might not have thought of as "gods." It's just that the mechanism for change isn't reproduction and evolution. Or rather, it's memetic evolution, not genetic.

EDIT: I also think you're forgetting that the gods originated "from beyond the chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)." Their initial creation and/or ascension would involve how things work in that other place, wherever that might be, and has little bearing on the story.

Meaning, the moment they become gods and gained a quiddity, they became reliant on belief. What form they existed as previously doesn't much matter as they weren't gods. Whether they just popped into existence, ascended from preexisting energy or creatures, or just wandered into a place of existence where they gained infinite for the price of needing beliefs to survive there, they are there in OotS universe. The moment the OotS universe formed, its laws of physics determined 3 things: 1. gods have form and thought, 2. gods have one quiddity, 3. gods feed on and mutate based on the beliefs of multiple quiddity beings.

[Fish]

Linguists look down on constructed languages like Esperanto and Klingon and Quenya, for what reason I’m not positive. I guess the thinking is that we hope to learn about the human brain by studying the way we learn, store, and utilize language; and non-natural languages (the thinking goes) don’t reveal anything except what we consciously put there.

Shame that Esperanto hasn’t really taken off. It had a lot of promise, as a concept: a universal language that’s easy to learn.

Spitballing here, but maybe apple used to mean fruit before narrowing to one general fruit, like our own "pomme" used to?
Good call. Etymology Online says that it did used to mean generic fruit, just as pomme in French, and in the original Latin root. It’s a little like the word “corn” in that respect.

[The_Weirdo]

Oh no, I was deceived (https://imgur.com/gallery/qXpeY)!

Well, it seems to be ananás in Portugal Portuguese.


Linguists look down on constructed languages like Esperanto and Klingon and Quenya, for what reason I’m not positive. I guess the thinking is that we hope to learn about the human brain by studying the way we learn, store, and utilize language; and non-natural languages (the thinking goes) don’t reveal anything except what we consciously put there.

Shame that Esperanto hasn’t really taken off. It had a lot of promise, as a concept: a universal language that’s easy to learn.

Okay, look, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie, but I did graduate in Language and Literature here, so this time we can have a decentish conversation.

The "looking down" thing goes through part of what you described for the thinking, sure. But aside from that, it's not easy to learn for everyone (nor could it easily be). Likewise, the most likely language to become the world's lingua franca depends on the power dynamics of the time. Unless there was some sort of a world push to make everyone learn Esperanto - or any language whatsoever - it is never going to work as intended. So that's the "beef", insofar as I even think about it, I personally have with esperanto.

To be sure, studying how constructed languages operate, within the brain and outside it, would be a very good field day for any linguist; if they feel it's unnecessary to do so, they are being willfully ignorant.

[understatement]

Why is it hind and hinder?

Also, wow, Loki's really not pulling any punches. I love his borderline anti-villain getup.

[Fyraltari]

You’re blaming the wrong country there, I suspect. It’s also called pine in Spanish, probably because it kinda looks like a massive pinecone. English probably stole it from them, since they were first on the scene.

Grey Wolf
The English don't even make their own mistakes, they steal them from others. How typical.


Shame that Esperanto hasn’t really taken off. It had a lot of promise, as a concept: a universal language that’s easy to learn.
Shame indeed. Though, having read my grandmother's beginner's guide to esperanto (not the actual title) I can say with confidence that it is far too europeocentric to be easy to learn for everyone.


Good call. Etymology Online says that it did used to mean generic fruit, just as pomme in French, and in the original Latin root. It’s a little like the word “corn” in that respect.
Yay!

Okay, look, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie
Say, my Doctor Who marathon reached Ghost Light so I've got to ask, are you quoting Seven are you both quoting somebody else?

[The MunchKING]

I keep seeing this and I keep thinking it's a MCU reference or something.

In Scion, a lot of the Aesir planes have Hiem after the important people's name. I think it means "home". Like Jotunheim is where the Jotun live, Helhiem is where Hel lives.



Isn't it just Hel in OotS? Hel lives in Hel? Or has that not been established and I don't know what I'm talking about?

I thought the devils lived in Hell and stole Hel's name to co-opt the branding, but I don't think it was established she lives there.

I can't find the strip where they say that right now but I'm looking.

[Schroeswald]

Why is it hind and hinder?

Also, wow, Loki's really not pulling any punches. I love his borderline anti-villain getup.



I should be helping slam down this cliched world in the trash where it belongs

Very anti-villain.

[The_Weirdo]

Say, my Doctor Who marathon reached Ghost Light so I've got to ask, are you quoting Seven are you both quoting somebody else?

I'm quoting him. I so wish I could find a video excerpt of the part where he says it.

[Thecommander236]

They would have starved to death from lack of divine food a looooong time ago.

Maybe, but maybe gods are like stars. The bigger the star, the quicker they burn their fuel, the faster they die. Maybe gods of OotS follow the same rule. Strong gods need a lot of fuel to keep going and will burn out without getting more fuel. Weak gods burn their fuel so slowly that they live several orders of magnitude longer. Not that I have evidence for this, but it might be possible. Any god that decides to be a "strong god" would be unable to become a "weak one" and, thus, can't slow down how fast they burn through their power. Perhaps, if there are weak gods, they are non-senient masses of energy with no direction or purpose except to exist as a mass of energy. Without wasting energy on thought, creation, fighting, partying, etc, they would just last almost indefinitely until something triggered them to ascend or just cause them to decide to be sentient. Again, I have zero idea on how that would work, but it's interesting to think about.

[Fyraltari]

I thought the devils lived in Hell and stole Hel's name to co-opt the branding, but I don't think it was established she lives there.

I can't find the strip where they say that right now but I'm looking.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1156.html). Although Hel implies the opposite (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html). Unless Loki was the one who gave the fiends the idea.

Durkon* also says at one point that he looks forword to the never ending gloom of Hel, and then clarifies he meant the place, no the goddess who he expects to be fairly chipper.

I'm quoting him. I so wish I could find a video excerpt of the part where he says it.

Not my favourite episode. It crammed a lot of things into to little time and explained zero of them.

[The_Weirdo]

Not my favourite episode. It crammed a lot of things into to little time and explained zero of them.

I never watched the full episode, I just love the quote and would like to see it uttered by Seven.

[The MunchKING]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1156.html). Although Hel implies the opposite (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html). Unless Loki was the one who gave the fiends the idea.

*Shrug*

Or it became a villain pun later when the devils renamed whatever-it-was-before-Hell.

EDIT: And thanks for finding that for me.

[Schroeswald]

*Shrug*

Or it became a villain pun later when the devils renamed whatever-it-was-before-Hell.

EDIT: And thanks for finding that for me.
I thought it was either nameless or didn't exist until there were mortals to pass to it and so they copied Hel's name in the first world.

[Fyraltari]

I never watched the full episode, I just love the quote and would like to see it uttered by Seven.

He doesn't utter it. He says it with basically the same intensity as this other gem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ-zt-o2mIM&feature=youtu.be&t=154), from a far better episode.

[The MunchKING]

That is certainly a possibility.

[Particle_Man]

Because he wanted to see what would happen. He did it purely for the lulz. Trying to guess what she would do would spoil his fun.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html

I agree with you (and others in between you and me), that puts Loki at the intersection of CE and CN according to the handy planar guide.


I'm not sure it's quite the same. In the Sandman, the way the Endless are perceived is entirely a function of who's looking at them--so the Martian Manhunter sees something different than a modern-day Earthly mortal does, and Nada sees something else again. Dream's personality is the same in all cases, though. The belief in the Stickverse seems to actually shape how the gods look and act for everyone, so even someone who believes Thor should have ginger hair will see him as blond if they meet him, because that's the majority viewpoint over many years.

That also happened to Jenny Sparks (of Wildstorm's Stormwatch and The Authority). The (in her words) "fishhead majority" decreed that as one of the "spirits of the century" (i.e. Jenny Sparks in the 20th Century) she had to die in dec. 31st, 1999, not dec. 31st. 2000. And so she did.

BTW, does the dwarf dogma about trees have effects on trees the way thoughts about gods have effects on gods? Would trees in the next world actually be malevolent? Or are dwarf beliefs so outnumbered by non-dwarf beliefs such as "No, they are just trees, neither evil nor good"?

[Fish]

Shame indeed. Though, having read my grandmother's beginner's guide to esperanto (not the actual title) I can say with confidence that it is far too europeocentric to be easy to learn for everyone.
Exactly. Easy is in the eye of the beholder. I studied Spanish and Mandarin for my linguistics degree, and German because I wanted to; Chinese was the easiest grammar to learn, but by far the hardest to learn to speak and write.

[Fyraltari]

BTW, does the dwarf dogma about trees have effects on trees the way thoughts about gods have effects on gods? Would trees in the next world actually be malevolent? Or are dwarf beliefs so outnumbered by non-dwarf beliefs such as "No, they are just trees, neither evil nor good"?

Trees are not gods, so no. Although, it's possible that whichever Northern God is in charcge of trees has become a bit more vindictive.

[Schroeswald]

BTW, does the dwarf dogma about trees have effects on trees the way thoughts about gods have effects on gods? Would trees in the next world actually be malevolent? Or are dwarf beliefs so outnumbered by non-dwarf beliefs such as "No, they are just trees, neither evil nor good"?

No, but it probably makes Thor like trees less, he might start zapping them on purpose if this lasts a few more millennia.

[Duramora]

Ok- I just had to register.

Holy Bleeping Bleep! This was a powerful one Rich! I can't WAIT to see how it turns out!

[Fyraltari]

Ok- I just had to register.

Welcome! I hope you have fun, here with the rest of us loons.

[Schroeswald]

Welcome! I hope you have fun, here with the rest of us loons.
Wait we're welcoming people and not scaring them off? Well then what was last thread about? Because I was trying to scare people away.

[Ridureyu]

Thor: "It's time for me to put my faith in you, Durkon."

Durkon: *topples over, chips off his nose*

Thor: "Does anybody have some Gorilla Glue?"

TWO HOURS LATER

"Someone pass the glaze. The paint's chipping off Durkon again."

"His weapon's bent. Why are their weapons always bent right out of the package?"

I swear, the pre-painted stuff has no QC."

[Thecommander236]

Last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) Neutral Evil is fotti g for a goddess of death, and disease.


can someone please answer this, because i am stumped as to what a "fotti g" is?

"fitting". It's fitting for a goddess of death to be neutral evil as death is neither good or bad. But Hel rules hel (single hockey stick), which is a place where the wicked go.

[Ruck]

What's the deal with Esperanto?

I think it's a song by Luis Fonsi, Daddy Yankee, and Justin Bieber?

[Gift Jeraff]

So Hel lives in Hel which is part of Hades and not Hell. There was also a god named Hades but he does not live in Hades because he is no longer alive.

[Ridureyu]

What's the deal with Esperanto? My first conscious exposure to the words "Esperanto" and "cliché" were (different) episodes* of Tiny Toon Adventures back in the 90s, so this isn't entirely random....


* The direct-to-video How I Spent My Summer Vacation was split into episode-length pieces for airing during a later season, so I think it counts.


Esperanto was an attempt to create a single worldwide united language. It failed for the reasons mentioned in this thread - the impossibility of getting the world's population en masse to abandon their linguistic traditions and learn a new one, differences between governments and cultures, and Esperanto's eurocentric construction which made it far less than convenient for the non-Western world.

But William Shatner starred in an Esperanto horror movie, so there's that.

[LadyEowyn]

Well, that clears up Loki’s motivations (and explains why his “Vote No” speech was kind of half-assed).

[GloatingSwine]

Esperanto was an attempt to create a single worldwide united language. It failed for the reasons mentioned in this thread - the impossibility of getting the world's population en masse to abandon their linguistic traditions and learn a new one, differences between governments and cultures, and Esperanto's eurocentric construction which made it far less than convenient for the non-Western world.

But William Shatner starred in an Esperanto horror movie, so there's that.

Also:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png


(Early episodes of Red Dwarf had the signs and announcement videos in Esperanto and English).

[mjasghar]

So does that mean that the gods can survive without worship, but worships somehow enhances or affects them anyway due to the rules of the 'verse being different from beyond the chaos?

Or does it mean that the gods have actually tied their very existence to worship now which balances out their godly power?
The latter
They have evolved to depend on worship
Presumably it also makes them more powerful
I’m reminded of a number of recent fantasy settings which have faery chaos beings as the enemy with a sub set who chose to become defined and enter the material and create the world etc. Exalted is sort of one (though the creators there don’t depend on worship it’s their servants who take over that do)

[BarakDeathBlade]

Like the verb "to murder", which means the act of committing a murder? :smalltongue:

Sure, I guess. I'm not sure why you would want to place a number of crows into a mental institution, but hey, you do you.

[Mandor]

That's a pretty well thought out set of motivations for Loki.

I'm feeling a little nervous for Thor though.... I mean... has he READ some of the early comics? Durkon's heart is absolutely in the right place, but the Order has been fumblin', stumblin', bumblin' for quite some time now.

[woweedd]

Huh, neat to get some godly character development: A reminder Loki is still evil, however nice he appears, and a nice little beat about how the gods, in a way, are both bound by and rely on mortals as much as mortals are bound by and rely on them. Loki can't tell the truth because mortal perception has bound his personality to restrictions, but a mortal, Durkon, is the one who will save the world. The god/mortal relationship is a bit more even then we thought.

[mjasghar]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

Yeah like those things that grow in the ground and have nothing to do with Apple trees that get called apples of the earth 🤔
Pineapples do sort of look like pine cones however - and apple was often used for any new fruit (at least the English didn’t use it for a tuber)
Getting back to cliched - the meaning is very media orientated
It refers to an overused trope - the Butler did it or the bad guy is actually fighting an even badder guy so we all make friends and forget the evil he did and is still doing
The story line has been used so much it becomes expected and so is a cliche. Which means that story line has been cliched.
Sorry I was to lazy to add the accents 😉

[Fish]

Why is it hind and hinder?
Why is what hind and hinder? Do you mean the difference in pronunciation, [haɪnd] and [hɪndɹ̩]?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Huh, neat to get some godly character development: A reminder Loki is still evil, however nice he appears, and a nice little beat about how the gods, in a way, are both bound by and rely on mortals as much as mortals are bound by and rely on them. Loki can't tell the truth because mortal perception has bound his personality to restrictions, but a mortal, Durkon, is the one who will save the world. The god/mortal relationship is a bit more even then we thought.

I expect god-mortal dynamics to change significantly, should (1) the existential threat of the Snarl and (2) the fact that three colors are insufficient to contain the Snarl cease to be significant factors.

[mjasghar]

Also in Planescape : the Norse gods dwelt together in a shared realm which sometimes was taken as the name for the whole plane. This shared realm probably explained why it was on the CN/CG plane
Loki has a home there but he also has a domain in Pandemonium (the lulz plane of CN/CE and often associated with madness) for when his tricks get him into trouble.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Oh come on Loki, you're clever enough to lie in such a way that she figures out the truth! :smallannoyed:

Her spite is probably a valid concern though.

[deuterio12]

Yeah Loki brag about how you're going to totally kick Thor's ass. Because that worked so well all the times in the past you tried to take Thor on.


Huh, neat to get some godly character development: A reminder Loki is still evil, however nice he appears, and a nice little beat about how the gods, in a way, are both bound by and rely on mortals as much as mortals are bound by and rely on them.

"I want to save both the mortal world and my daughter!" Truly ultimate evil incarnate.

Next comic Loki shows up doing charity work in orphanages.



Loki can't tell the truth because mortal perception has bound his personality to restrictions

Then don't tell the truth.

Lie.

Make up some lie to get in Hel's good side. Nudge/manipulate her to another path besides self-destruction.

Don't just walk away silently.



but a mortal, Durkon, is the one who will save the world. The god/mortal relationship is a bit more even then we thought.

Not really. Mortals are still the slaves-food, being pulled by the god's strings and if Durkon failed plenty more from where that came from. From what we've seen anybody else from Durkon's clans would do just fine if not better.

And outside that, sure Durkon convinced a vampire to self-destruct, but Hylgia the highest priestess of Loki convinced a Thor cleric to sleep with her on their first night (while Durkon took multiple days) and then killed said Thor's cleric in front of his own party and got away with it. Send Hylgia instead to "negotiate" with Redcloak and she would have the goblin prophet eating out of her hand (if not other places) in no time.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's a pretty well thought out set of motivations for Loki.

I'm feeling a little nervous for Thor though.... I mean... has he READ some of the early comics? Durkon's heart is absolutely in the right place, but the Order has been fumblin', stumblin', bumblin' for quite some time now.

Nice ELO reference. Ballad of Horace Wimp, IIRC.

[Fish]

If the gods are what their followers believe them to be, what do the goblins think The Dark One is? If they believe TDO is incapable of compromise with non-goblinoids, Thor’s mission for Durkon is doomed.

[Schroeswald]

If the gods are what their followers believe them to be, what do the goblins think The Dark One is? If they believe TDO is incapable of compromise with non-goblinoids, Thor’s mission for Durkon is doomed.

Durkon only needs to talk to Redcloak, who is not limited by mortal belief.

[RatElemental]

In fact the most famous rule in english language is wrong most of the time, because english is Chaotic Evil.

Uhhh.... i before e except after c, and when it's making an 'ay' sound?

Only word I know of that breaks that rule is weird, but it's a weird word.

[Schroeswald]

Uhhh.... i before e except after c, and when it's making an 'ay' sound?

Only word I know of that breaks that rule is weird, but it's a weird word.
First off, I'm not counting the second part because it doesn't rhyme but even no ay sounds and not counting variations:
leisure, heirs, forfeit, sovereign, feisty, heifer, Keith (does that count?), glacier, protein, ancient, society, sleight, seismic, neither, deity, financier, heist, science, etc.

[Dion]

First off, I'm not counting the second part because it doesn't rhyme but even no ay sounds and not counting variations:
leisure, heirs, forfeit, sovereign, feisty, heifer, Keith (does that count?), glacier, protein, ancient, society, sleight, seismic, neither, deity, financier, heist, science, etc.

Yah, I gotta give mad props to my third grad teacher for coming up with that “rule”.

[Peelee]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

Yeah, those crazy English.

Well, and Spanish. And Welsh. Filipino. Afrikaans. Actually quite a few others, this isn't like the metric divide at all.

[redwizard007]

Who'd have thought Loki would be such a supportive father?

[JumboWheat01]

English is weird because we steal words and usage from other languages and try to make it all work in one.

[Squire Doodad]

English is weird because we steal words and usage from other languages and try to make it all work in one.

And then those Spaniards come in and take our words back!

Iceberg!

Something I noticed the other day is that the way that lengua and lenguaje typically mean "tongue" and "language" (though "idioma" is far more for Spanish common in my experience) is a bit like the English "tongue" versus "tongues".

[Schroeswald]

Yah, I gotta give mad props to my third grad teacher for coming up with that “rule”.

I before e, except after c, except when it's March, or early July, and sometimes Tuesdays, when anything flies (I feel like I've heard the march part before but this was mostly me.

[RatElemental]

"I want to save both the mortal world and my daughter!" Truly ultimate evil incarnate.

More like "I'm sacrificing my daughter so we can use this world to lock away the only thing we're afraid of. If you screw that up and she dies for nothing I will take revenge for that."



Then don't tell the truth.

Lie.


"Honesty" is a broader concept than "not lying." If Loki tells the truth in the cause of trickery, he is still not being honest. Walking back in there and laying his cards on the table and coming clean requires more than just not lying, it requires total honesty. And thus he cannot do it.

In other words: Loki can tell the truth to deceive someone, but he wouldn't be wanting to deceive Hel in this instance—so he can't tell the truth. It also means that he couldn't find some way to lie for the purposes of genuinely enlightening her. His intent matters more than the truth value of the words coming out of his mouth.

[Gift Jeraff]

One interesting thing about Loki's words about how the gods work:

They serve to confirm something about Dvalin. It's not just that he want to follow procedure and ask the council what to do. It's not that he chose to adhere to whatever the council votes within procedure. It's just that he can't do otherwise.

I was about to post exactly this.

[Psychronia]

Then don't tell the truth.
Lie.
Make up some lie to get in Hel's good side. Nudge/manipulate her to another path besides self-destruction.
Don't just walk away silently.

That...is a good point. Loki can't be honest, but he can still take the dishonest route of manipulating people into doing and feeling what he wants.
Heck, maybe he can even manipulate them into finding the truth "for his own ends", right? Maybe that's too close to honesty or still wouldn't work because the spirit of intent matters.

Either way, it's a moot point for Hel specifically because she might muck things up if she knew at this point.


And outside that, sure Durkon convinced a vampire to self-destruct, but Hylgia the highest priestess of Loki convinced a Thor cleric to sleep with her on their first night (while Durkon took multiple days) and then killed said Thor's cleric in front of his own party and got away with it. Send Hylgia instead to "negotiate" with Redcloak and she would have the goblin prophet eating out of her hand (if not other places) in no time.

Did you just suggest we depend on Hilgya's diplomacy to save the world? If the other party in question wasn't Redcloak, I'd say that Miko would have an equal chance of success.

[jwhouk]

This almost looks like it would be the epic place to end the book... but I suspect the Giant has other plans.

[jokem]

Huh, neat to get some godly character development: A reminder Loki is still evil, however nice he appears, and a nice little beat about how the gods, in a way, are both bound by and rely on mortals as much as mortals are bound by and rely on them. Loki can't tell the truth because mortal perception has bound his personality to restrictions, but a mortal, Durkon, is the one who will save the world. The god/mortal relationship is a bit more even then we thought.

Last I checked Loki resided in Pandemonium, which makes him more chaotic than evil. So he might do something for the fun of it, he also might tell the truth if it serves his agenda. He is also not willing to serve the goals of he who wishes the destruction of the universe. (Don't know if I am allowed to say the name of Th****un, so I will not).

Recall Belkar is chaotic evil as well, but has been known to do things to benefit the party as well. I still claim Belkar has moved to chaotic neutral, or at least hovering on the cusp of that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

This almost looks like it would be the epic place to end the book... but I suspect the Giant has other plans.

With the numbers given there are another 10-12 pages to go.

[Inmate XIII]

I take it all back. Loki is just a ****.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

It's a fictional world, so obviously it can have any population that the author wants, but the pre-industrial population of our world peaked at about half a billion, so my head canon has the population of all thinking peoples in the OOTS world at or below that level. So it requires that they all believe in Loki and believe he's incapable of telling the truth.
So, I'm going to say it's hyperbole from Loki - just because he can tell the truth to Thor doesn't mean he does, so there's no need to take his believer estimates as even remotely accurate.
A) Healing magic probably means a higher population peak, even with horrible death monsters to counterbalance the ability to magically cure disease.
B) Why wouldn't everyone believe in Loki? Not follow him, believe in him. That the gods exist and meddle with the world is a provable fact in this setting.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, human(oid) population is only a piece of it. There's also the dragons, winterwolves, displacer beasts, flumphs, etc, plus the oceans are fully open to settlement by aquatic species.

[Krizak]

Well, then. Loki certainly proved how clever he is here, pulling the wool over not only Thor's eyes, but everyone here in the forum. :smallbiggrin:

At the beginning of this cycle, Loki set up a sure bet in his favour, or rather, in his daughter's favour, and Thor still hasn't figured it out. It doesn't matter how many dwarves die heroically over the course of the cycle; in the end, just like every cycle beforehand, the Snarl will break free and either consume the world or force the gods to unmake the world beforehand, and all the living dwarves will still fall into Hel's clutches, bolstering her power. Loki set up a bet that his daughter was guaranteed to win, because why would he ever set up a fair wager?

The only reason he stopped Hel from winning right now is because, as he says, stopping the Snarl is a much bigger win, even if it's a win for everyone. But if the Snarl isn't stopped, Hel still wins eventually, no matter what. And Thor still hasn't figured that out, so Loki will lie to his face about it and then say that the "rub it in your face" loophole means what he's saying is the truth. Loki acted the part of a concerned father, flew off with his threat, and then crashed on his couch at home, laughing his head off on how the blonde fool still doesn't get it.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, then. Loki certainly proved how clever he is here, pulling the wool over not only Thor's eyes, but everyone here in the forum. :smallbiggrin:

At the beginning of this cycle, Loki set up a sure bet in his favour, or rather, in his daughter's favour, and Thor still hasn't figured it out. It doesn't matter how many dwarves die heroically over the course of the cycle; in the end, just like every cycle beforehand, the Snarl will break free and either consume the world or force the gods to unmake the world beforehand, and all the living dwarves will still fall into Hel's clutches, bolstering her power. Loki set up a bet that his daughter was guaranteed to win, because why would he ever set up a fair wager?

The only reason he stopped Hel from winning right now is because, as he says, stopping the Snarl is a much bigger win, even if it's a win for everyone. But if the Snarl isn't stopped, Hel still wins eventually, no matter what. And Thor still hasn't figured that out, so Loki will lie to his face about it and then say that the "rub it in your face" loophole means what he's saying is the truth. Loki acted the part of a concerned father, flew off with his threat, and then crashed on his couch at home, laughing his head off on how the blonde fool still doesn't get it.

If the Snarl eats the world it eats the souls too, so no go on that one.

[SerenaRaeyld]

I before e, except after c, except when it's March, or early July, and sometimes Tuesdays, when anything flies (I feel like I've heard the march part before but this was mostly me.

Ahem.

The proper form of the rule is:

“I" before "E" except after "C" and when sounding like "A" as in neighbor and weigh, and on weekends and holidays and all throughout May, and YOU'LL ALWAYS BE WRONG NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY!!!!”

-Brian Regan*

"Stupid in School" available on YouTube.

Katt.

[Peelee]

If the Snarl eats the world it eats the souls too, so no go on that one.

Which is why Hel's plan is to destroy the world before the Snarl gets to them. Which, I assume, became SOP after the first few worlds failed. The timing is all they worry about; getting that wrong messes it up.

[Tvtyrant]

Which is why Hel's plan is to destroy the world before the Snarl gets to them. Which, I assume, became SOP after the first few worlds failed. The timing is all they worry about; getting that wrong messes it up.

Loki even says he would have sided with Hel if not for the Dark One. That hobbyist of gobbos really threw a spanner in the normal procedures.

[georgie_leech]

Let this be a lesson to everyone: Geez I can never make a half-decent prediction to save my life.

Says the founder of the Church of the Sudden Skylight. :smalltongue:

[happycrow]

I fear a very important (if not particularly important to the story) question is being overlooked in this discussion:

Where did Hel *get* that hustle, if she apparently lacked it before to the extent that Loki felt things needed to be seriously spiced up with a crazy bet?
What belief or believers are giving her that extra hustle and motivation (besides one giant demigod who totally believes in her)?

[Emanick]

I fear a very important (if not particularly important to the story) question is being overlooked in this discussion:

Where did Hel *get* that hustle, if she apparently lacked it before to the extent that Loki felt things needed to be seriously spiced up with a crazy bet?
What belief or believers are giving her that extra hustle and motivation (besides one giant demigod who totally believes in her)?

Oh, it’s all Thrym. Totally just him. His pure, unselfish love alone is giving Hel the strength to power through and hustle her way up to Queen of the Northern Pantheon. All hail Good Guy Thrym!

[Jasdoif]

What belief or believers are giving her that extra hustle and motivation (besides one giant demigod who totally believes in her)?The belief that she had to work for it if she wanted to make it happen. Motivation is a powerful thing.

[Particle_Man]

So do we have to re-evaluate everything Loki said to Hel (or indeed, anyone who isn’t Thor) due to his incapacity for honesty? This also raises the odds that he is stringing his clerics and followers along, actually. Maybe Loki’s followers don’t go to Valhalla at all.

[Dion]

Oh, it’s all Thrym. Totally just him. His pure, unselfish love alone is giving Hel the strength to power through and hustle her way up to Queen of the Northern Pantheon. All hail Good Guy Thrym!

Thrym sounds just like a Mary Sue to me.


Maybe Loki’s followers don’t go to Valhalla at all.

I’m shocked by this. Shocked.

We could tell Hilgya, but she’d probably murder us. So let’s keep it to ourselves.

[The_Weirdo]

So do we have to re-evaluate everything Loki said to Hel (or indeed, anyone who isn’t Thor) due to his incapacity for honesty? This also raises the odds that he is stringing his clerics and followers along, actually. Maybe Loki’s followers don’t go to Valhalla at all.

Not really. Whatever else I think of Hilgya, she arrived at the theory of her own volition. Gods aren't usually in the business of disabusing people of their theories, so Hilhya's theory is still a "maybe".

[Psyren]

EDIT: And also if Loki is literally incapable of telling the truth, I am unclear about how Hilgaya's prayer to learn Durkon's location was answered.


It was definitely still a deception. She asked for Durkon, and he led her to a dangerous vampire that just happened to be driving Durkon's corpse with Durkon's soul riding shotgun without an ounce of warning - and a bad saving throw meant she and her baby almost died in the process. Seems pretty in keeping with Loki if you ask me.


So do we have to re-evaluate everything Loki said to Hel (or indeed, anyone who isn’t Thor) due to his incapacity for honesty? This also raises the odds that he is stringing his clerics and followers along, actually. Maybe Loki’s followers don’t go to Valhalla at all.

And miss another chance to rub it in the faces of Thor's followers? No, I very much believe the "cool lounge upstairs" is a thing.

[Peelee]

Not really. Whatever else I think of Hilgya, she arrived at the theory of her own volition. Gods aren't usually in the business of disabusing people of their theories, so Hilhya's theory is still a "maybe".

If Loki didn't present the theory to her and she came up with it herself, it's significantly more on the side of "self-serving delusion" than "maybe."

[Aetius]

Maybe, but maybe gods are like stars. The bigger the star, the quicker they burn their fuel, the faster they die. Maybe gods of OotS follow the same rule. Strong gods need a lot of fuel to keep going and will burn out without getting more fuel. Weak gods burn their fuel so slowly that they live several orders of magnitude longer. Not that I have evidence for this, but it might be possible. Any god that decides to be a "strong god" would be unable to become a "weak one" and, thus, can't slow down how fast they burn through their power. Perhaps, if there are weak gods, they are non-senient masses of energy with no direction or purpose except to exist as a mass of energy. Without wasting on thought, creation, fighting, partying, etc, they would just last almost indefinitely until something triggered them to ascend or just cause them to decide to be sentient. Again, I have zero idea on how that would work, but it's interesting to think about.

Like discworld's small gods? Could be. But the original theory was that gods may decide to not get involved with a world to protect their identity from being changed by believe. And even if you burn fuel slowly you still burn fuel and your decision to not get involved means you intentionally starve yourself to death. Also you decide to stay small and if being a small god means you are part of a mindless mass of energy you don't really have much of an identity so it would defeat the original point.


More like "I'm sacrificing my daughter so we can use this world to lock away the only thing we're afraid of. If you screw that up and she dies for nothing I will take revenge for that."

He doesn't sacrifice her. If the plan succeeds the world won't end so there's no more risk of her starving to death between worlds and no further risk of the snarl escaping and killing everyone including Hel. So it's for her own good, really.
True, it would keep her malnourished and miserable. But Loki didn't get her in that position to lock away the snarl. So no sacrifice there.

The only thing he is now sacrificing is her scheme to grab supreme power. If the plan fails and the world end's without her plot succeeding it might kill her, but risking her life is not the same as sacrificing her.
So it's not that he doesn't want her to die in vain - he doesn't want her to die period.

[Fyraltari]

Which is why Hel's plan is to destroy the world before the Snarl gets to them. Which, I assume, became SOP after the first few worlds failed. The timing is all they worry about; getting that wrong messes it up.
Standard Operating Procedure?

I fear a very important (if not particularly important to the story) question is being overlooked in this discussion:

Where did Hel *get* that hustle, if she apparently lacked it before to the extent that Loki felt things needed to be seriously spiced up with a crazy bet?
What belief or believers are giving her that extra hustle and motivation (besides one giant demigod who totally believes in her)?
She got it from being backed into a corner. You’d be surprised how resourceful someone can be when desperate.

[Psyren]

Thor mentioned they failed to save the souls a few times too. Presumably some of the lesser gods starved those times, and the resulting follow-up world had to be smaller in scope.

[factotum]

It was definitely still a deception. She asked for Durkon, and he led her to a dangerous vampire that just happened to be driving Durkon's corpse with Durkon's soul riding shotgun without an ounce of warning

Actually, what he did was lead her to a group of people who had as much interest in killing the vampire containing Durkon's soul as she did, which is realistically the best he could have done. If she hadn't been there then the Order would likely have lost to Durkula's minions, and good luck on her ever getting her desired revenge in that case.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Actually, what he did was lead her to a group of people who had as much interest in killing the vampire containing Durkon's soul as she did, which is realistically the best he could have done. If she hadn't been there then the Order would likely have lost to Durkula's minions, and good luck on her ever getting her desired revenge in that case.

maybe there is an exception to followrrs of Loki?