PvP contracts & fine print

[TyGuy]

Just want to get some input on a few things. Playing in a new campaign with a party full of seedy characters, not least of which is my PC. Mine is a Glasya tiefling, so if you know about Glasya you know she, and to some extent my PC, has a propensity for swindling others through very cleverly worded binding contracts.

Well we made a verbal deal, to take whatever we can pocket for ourselves and to only split things equal when it's the stated target/goal of a venture. I want to write up a real prop contract that's far too wordy for the other players to actually read with tons of fun hidden terms of services as easter eggs and potentially as a way to have one over the other players if they get too douchy. (they kinda played selfishly in other campaigns before we decided to be a band of rapscallions)

1) What kind of terms do you think tow the line between meaningless and too selfish as a player? Or alternatively, are great things to have in the back-pocket if the other players start getting too self-centered?

2) What do you think of something like breaching the contract makes my PC the owner of the breacher's soul? Or maybe if a PC dies they inadvertently will and testament all adventure wealth to my PC? That my character is the defacto leader of the party, and a bunch of jargon about what constitutes a party and that if anyone branches off and starts another party they act as franchise in which my PC owns a percentage of that enterprise?

3) Got any sources or material to help fill out this contract with fluff, filler, and actually clever clauses?

[Willie the Duck]

I want to write up a real prop contract that's far too wordy for the other players to actually read with tons of fun hidden terms of services as easter eggs and potentially as a way to have one over the other players if they get too douchy. (they kinda played selfishly in other campaigns before we decided to be a band of rapscallions)

1) What kind of terms do you think tow the line between meaningless and too selfish as a player? Or alternatively, are great things to have in the back-pocket if the other players start getting too self-centered?

I... wait, you want to have traps laced in a (I acknowledge: in-game) contract so that you can force the other PCs to play as you want them to, but they are, have been, or potentially will be being selfish, douchy, and self-centered? Who exactly is this going to be fun for, and are you expecting to be friends with anyone in the group when it is all done?

[Contrast]

2) What do you think of something like breaching the contract makes my PC the owner of the breacher's soul? Or maybe if a PC dies they inadvertently will and testament all adventure wealth to my PC? That my character is the defacto leader of the party, and a bunch of jargon about what constitutes a party and that if anyone branches off and starts another party they act as franchise in which my PC owns a percentage of that enterprise?

Just a reminder - a contract is only worth anything if you are capable of enforcing it.

How exactly are you intending to claim this soul and who are you going to make that claim to? What are you going to do when you turn round to the other PCs and say 'aha now through my clever trickery you all legally work for me and are my slaves!' and they turn around and say 'no thanks' and walk off (or instead all decide that perhaps the easiest solution to their problem is to dispose of the person trying to enslave them/capture their souls).

How are you even going to convince them to sign anything in the first place? If I was a member of a rough and tumble murderous gang my response to someone asking me to sign a stack of paperwork would not be 'hmm seems too long to read, better just sign it' and would more likely be 'this seems like evidence with my name on it, no way in hell am I signing anything'.

[TyGuy]

Take it you guys have never watched Acquisitions Incorporated

[Stone-Ears]

Normal people don't trust contract types of folks.

Criminals EVEN LESS so because they know EXACTLY what those types are aiming to do. What exactly do you even have to offer them that would make them even remotely interested in signing a contract?

Roleplay wise, a verbal contract is probably all they will be willing to do. A written contract will probably be out of the question as paranoid types do not go for contracts that are lengthy or too hard to read. You might get the lowest intelligence person to sign it if you convinced them it would benefit them but anyone else would probably just laugh at your tiefling's face

[Stone-Ears]

Just a reminder - a contract is only worth anything if you are capable of enforcing it.

How exactly are you intending to claim this soul and who are you going to make that claim to? What are you going to do when you turn round to the other PCs and say 'aha now through my clever trickery you all legally work for me and are my slaves!' and they turn around and say 'no thanks' and walk off (or instead all decide that perhaps the easiest solution to their problem is to dispose of the person trying to enslave them/capture their souls).


A sword through the gut or a dagger slit across the throat would free anyone of any obligation they had to their debtor should they be foolish enough to collect it.


On a more for real note, collecting on the debt would probably require a small group of extremely well armed and talented NPCs to collect on the debt for the tiefling. They ain't gonna come cheap and trying to cheat them too is probably a death sentence

[Brookshw]

.....
........

How much time do you want to invest in this? At first I thought this was a bad idea but then I thought it sounded like fun.

First, take a book like Drafting Contracts, Stark, 2e (https://www.amazon.com/Drafting-Contracts-Lawyers-Aspen-Coursebook/dp/0735594775/ref=asc_df_0735594775/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312126491753&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14144013479281360247&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001922&hvtargid=pla-465731253490&psc=1). Consider what it teaches you, then do the exact opposite.


Make it incomprehensible. In your definitions section give various terms conditional meanings. Make sure that these terms are then redefined in later sections, and also be sure that the contract is unclear when it refers to a specific conditional term, and clauses that only apply to specific conditional terms. Some contracts, like the Pond 5 license agreement (https://www.pond5.com/legal/license), might be good starting points, Pond 5 creates various rights that are relevant only to specific license types. If you want more examples maybe look around on Edgar (https://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/companysearch.html).

Create meaningless standards of performance, something along the lines of "Shall reasonably perform the services described herein with such reasonableness to be consistent with the industrial standards of Pandesmos" (note: Pandesmos is the top layer of Pandemonium).

Dispute resolution needs to be absurd, something along the lines of "The parties will submit any dispute to arbitration. The arbitrators for such arbitration shall be a tribunal comprised of one Devil, one Demon, and one Slaad. The forum for such arbitration shall be the Feywild and may only occur on the third full moon of each month. The arbitration shall follow the rules and procedures as set for by the Feywild Arbitration Society." Put in an obscure escape clause to avoid this.

Disputed property bailment, have someone assigned to hold the goods under dispute until the dispute is resolved. Pick a bailee yourself someone trustworthy, or perhaps untrustworthy as you prefer.

Wait, were you asking how to make an absurd contract?

[KorvinStarmast]

Just want to get some input on a few things. Playing in a new campaign with a party full of seedy characters, not least of which is my PC. Mine is a Glasya tiefling, so if you know about Glasya you know she, and to some extent my PC, has a propensity for swindling others through very cleverly worded binding contracts.

Well we made a verbal deal, to take whatever we can pocket for ourselves and to only split things equal when it's the stated target/goal of a venture. I want to write up a real prop contract that's far too wordy for the other players to actually read with tons of fun hidden terms of services as easter eggs and potentially as a way to have one over the other players if they get too douchy. (they kinda played selfishly in other campaigns before we decided to be a band of rapscallions)

You do you.

As a practical matter: if you can't come up with your own way to do all of this, in terms of thinking it through, what makes you think that you can implement any of it cleverly enough to make the con work? I've watched people lie badly for a lot of my life.

I want to write up a real prop contract that's far too wordy for the other players to actually read with tons of fun hidden terms of services as easter eggs and potentially as a way to have one over the other players if they get too douchy. (they kinda played selfishly in other campaigns before we decided to be a band of rapscallions)
Mission Improbable:
Your job, should you choose to accept it, is to out-douche the douches. The secretary will disavow any knowledge of this post, which will self destruct in 30 seconds ...

PS: it's "toe the line" not "tow the line" :smallsmile:

Alternate Course of Action:
Cut and past a EULA for your favorite video game/CRPG.
Change a few words here and there.
Presto change-o, you have what you want.

[TyGuy]

Good critiques. I definitely would need to define the duration of the contract as into postmortem for eternity with a several paragraphs dedicated to subsections defining terms like postmortem and eternity. And work something out with the DM that affects contract breachers even if they kill my PC. There's spells and monster abilities to pull from in this area.

Gotta have plenty of honey front and center in the contract to attract signing.

[TyGuy]

.....
........

How much time do you want to invest in this? At first I thought this was a bad idea but then I thought it sounded like fun.

First, take a book like Drafting Contracts, Stark, 2e (https://www.amazon.com/Drafting-Contracts-Lawyers-Aspen-Coursebook/dp/0735594775/ref=asc_df_0735594775/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312126491753&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14144013479281360247&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001922&hvtargid=pla-465731253490&psc=1). Consider what it teaches you, then do the exact opposite.


Make it incomprehensible. In your definitions section give various terms conditional meanings. Make sure that these terms are then redefined in later sections, and also be sure that the contract is unclear when it refers to a specific conditional term, and clauses that only apply to specific conditional terms. Some contracts, like the Pond 5 license agreement (https://www.pond5.com/legal/license), might be good starting points, Pond 5 creates various rights that are relevant only to specific license types. If you want more examples maybe look around on Edgar (https://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/companysearch.html).

Create meaningless standards of performance, something along the lines of "Shall reasonably perform the services described herein with such reasonableness to be consistent with the industrial standards of Pandesmos" (note: Pandesmos is the top layer of Pandemonium).

Dispute resolution needs to be absurd, something along the lines of "The parties will submit any dispute to arbitration. The arbitrators for such arbitration shall be a tribunal comprised of one Devil, one Demon, and one Slaad. The forum for such arbitration shall be the Feywild and may only occur on the third full moon of each month. The arbitration shall follow the rules and procedures as set for by the Feywild Arbitration Society." Put in an obscure escape clause to avoid this.

Disputed property bailment, have someone assigned to hold the goods under dispute until the dispute is resolved. Pick a bailee yourself someone trustworthy, or perhaps untrustworthy as you prefer.

Wait, were you asking how to make an absurd contract?
Amazing leads and tips, thank you!

And we're taking an extended break so I have a few weeks to kill time with this.

[Brookshw]

Amazing leads and tips, thank you!

And we're taking an extended break so I have a few weeks to kill time with this.

Addendum, drop in the D&D OGL license for fun.

Oh, and appendices, lots of them, some of which are meaningless lists, maybe things you dislike.

Btw, a magic phrase to use, "as amended from time to time".

[Nagog]

To start, you need something that the characters will want/need that gives them a reason to sign whatever document they put in front of them. Therefore, I'd opt to be the party healer, either as a Divine Soul Sorcerer or a Celestial Warlock. Warlock fits more of the tone, and you could pass it off as your "spells" are contracts that the characters need to sign to gain the benefits of your healing/support spells. The first few contracts will be something like "I, (Character name), submit to be healed for X health by (Your character's name) on the date of (date), to the effect that I will use this newfound vigor to protect and aid (your character) to the best of my ability with the life they have so generously provided". This will fit the bill of "Oh this character is fun and kinda scandalous because it means I need to protect the healer by virtue of this contract, haha that's funny but sure it doesn't hurt me any". Then, after a few more sessions of this, you add in clauses when you heal/buff these characters, clauses like "Should (their character) lose this health that has been given, they will be required to submit to one command of (your character), to be determined by the provider" or some such. If they're all jerk players, and they're expecting you to do the same, the first few times they get healed they'll be wary of the contract, but after a while they'll stop noticing/caring, and that's when you swoop in and get them. Start with small things, like owing your character silver pieces for every HP they lose that you gave them, but don't inform them of this until later, when you reveal that pretty much everybody in the party owes you everything they have. You can only reveal your ruse once, make it count.

I'd also suggest keeping a log somewhere of what contracts were signed when, what each contract stipulated, and the like, so the DM or a player can't call BS on it. Also, if the DM is a d*ck, don't let them in on anything but the first edition of the contract (with the relatively harmless protection clause). Also, to set the tone before you start, when the party gets together offer each party member a contract stating that you are authorized to revive them should they fall in battle, at a small cost (perhaps 2 silver? Once set this will be difficult to change). More likely than not, these first few sessions will be establishing their contracts as fun creative fluff, nothing more, nothing to be particularly attentive to. That is the most important part, playing off the contracts as fluff rather than functional and binding.



Man, now I want to play this kind of thing. XD

[Nagog]

Good critiques. I definitely would need to define the duration of the contract as into postmortem for eternity with a several paragraphs dedicated to subsections defining terms like postmortem and eternity. And work something out with the DM that affects contract breachers even if they kill my PC. There's spells and monster abilities to pull from in this area.

Gotta have plenty of honey front and center in the contract to attract signing.

Look into the Contingency spell, and suggest it to the DM in the form of a Magic Item if you aren't a Wizard.

[Contrast]

Take it you guys have never watched Acquisitions Incorporated

I haven't. Do they use a method of enforcing magically binding contracts that your DM has approved the use of? That would certainly solve most of the issues I raised.

As other have said, I have concerns about the out of character element (you want to punish other players, partly for actions in a previous campaign, for being self-centred by forcing them into subservience to you as the glorious unassailable party leader - how benevolent of you :smallwink:) but I guess all I can say there is that you know your table and the players involved better than we do.


You want my advice - leave as many loopholes to wriggle through as you set nooses to strangle/trip up in any contract.

[pragma]

Btw, a magic phrase to use, "as amended from time to time".
One classic move would be to have the contract refer to a set of bylaws. Write the bylaws, but don't distribute them unless you're asked to (maybe even include a clause in the contract making it difficult to get copies of the bylaws). Give yourself unilateral permission to amend bylaws and bring a copy to every session. Reveal only relevant parts.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I don't know what your class is, but if you're a warlock, then perhaps you can subtly make these contracts into 3-party contracts which include your patron? Maybe by making the party-that-is-you in the contracts something like "Bob, including all assign, heirs, assistants and suppliers", or something like that. Leave an additional, unexplained signature line below your own signature line, so that your patron can later become a signatory as well (patron is the "supplier"). Also make sure you get that clause that lets multiple parties sign at different dates and places.

That ought to add some serious teeth to the contract, and ensure (demonic?) enforcement of the terms.

[TyGuy]

One classic move would be to have the contract refer to a set of bylaws. Write the bylaws, but don't distribute them unless you're asked to (maybe even include a clause in the contract making it difficult to get copies of the bylaws). Give yourself unilateral permission to amend bylaws and bring a copy to every session. Reveal only relevant parts.That's AMAZING! Great idea!


I don't know what your class is, but if you're a warlock, then perhaps you can subtly make these contracts into 3-party contracts which include your patron? Maybe by making the party-that-is-you in the contracts something like "Bob, including all assign, heirs, assistants and suppliers", or something like that. Leave an additional, unexplained signature line below your own signature line, so that your patron can later become a signatory as well (patron is the "supplier"). Also make sure you get that clause that lets multiple parties sign at different dates and places.

That ought to add some serious teeth to the contract, and ensure (demonic?) enforcement of the terms.
Definitely. I was thinking of something that opens this up to new members.

[Mad_Saulot]

I'm 42 years old, and the two most important things I've learned in nearly half a century on this earth:

1- DnD is better than crack.

2- Never Sign Anything Ever.I repeat: NEVER SIGN ANYTHING