3.5 how to improve spell DC

[Trandir]

Today we faced a wyrm white dragon and we almost all died because the sorcerer and the cleric had the dc for their spell at most at 24 (also the sorcerer used only fireball, 3 times, delayed fireball, time stop, dragon ally and the cleric disintegrate even tho they are both lv 18). As a resoult the master of many forms (lv 17) got demolished since he could not surpass the dragon AC and was cought in the middle of the fireball madness and I (ecl 14) failed a save against a crush attack and got into a grapple and crushed to death.

The sorcerer is now sorcerer 19 and the cleric is cleric 18/ paladin 1(sort of)

Yes they have a garbage 20 and 21 in carisma and wisdom respectively but aside of the dam manuals and cloak of carisma and periapt of wisdom how can they improve their spell DC?

Sidenote: they got some nice homebrew items: the sorcerer has a glove that maximize the spell damage and a magic chalice that grant him 5 more spell known per level (so 5 extra lv 9, 5 extra lv 8, 5 extra lv 7 ecc...), the cleric has a nice assortment of maces with total enchantment bonus of +7 +8 and +10 (the +8 one gets the cleric BAB added to damage as well).

Also here are some more dumb house rules in case they change something: spell resistance reduced magical damage and nothing else.
Here a weapon gets bonus to attack and damage roll is equal to his total enchantment bonus so a +1 flamming sword gets +2 bonus instead of the usual +1.
Here criticals multiply only the weapon damage rolled by the weapon damage dice. A short sword deals 1d6 multiplied by 2 plus all the kther modifiers.

It's embarassing that 2 spellcasters with this dumb rules got us nearly killed with all this power at their disposal. Really the sorcerd needed just to ready his action and open a gate to some other hell plane as the dragon was decending on us and bam problem solved. If you ask the dragon attacked us in the camp during the night and that was also the first encounter of the day so they had all the daily spells intacts and no reason to not go full on nova.

[Biggus]

You might find some useful stuff here:

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176.0

[Asmotherion]

Start with ways to fix their casting stats. Wish for +5 inherent/ a +6 wonderous item for enhancment and +4 from level up is a neat +15 to your castin stat. Add age category for +1 to +3. Assuming they didn't start with something lower than a 16 in their casting stat and are not a race that deliberately gives them a minus they can reliably obtain a 32-34 stat. Without any special optimisation.

Then Earth Spell feat can give you a great boost to heighten spell.

With all these together a spell save DC 40+ is easy to archive.

[RNightstalker]

Have them learn spells w/o saving throws.

[tyckspoon]

Your sorcerer needs to fix his casting stat. There aren't really many good ways to improve DC beyond that (deliberately, a lot of the easy ways to get more DC were removed in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition) and he's well behind where he's expected to be at that level. What do you mean by 'Spell resistance reduces magical damage'? If it's being treated like DR but for anything at all that is magical, trying to blast anything with SR is just not going to work out well.

It would also be helpful for the Sorcerer to have a few single-target orbs/ray attack spells, so he can attack against (typically pretty low) Touch ACs and not risk exploding his friends by trying to area attack single enemies. Even the lowly Scorching Ray can be pretty effective at this, especially with free Maximizes thrown on.

With the houserules on magic weapons the Cleric probably would have been better off just buffing himself and engaging the dragon in melee if possible; cast Divine Power, go hit the dragon with a +30 bonus damage (at least +3 strength just from Divine Power, +19 BAB added from the special power, +8 from the enhancement level of the weapon) mace once or twice and you'll meet or beat the expected damage from getting the dragon to fail against a Disintegrate.. or possibly he's not doing that because he's afraid the DM will realize how dumb that is and take it away from him :smallamused:

[Biggus]

Your sorcerer needs to fix his casting stat. [...] he's well behind where he's expected to be at that level.

This is a good point, why are their Cha and Wis so ridiculously low? Is the DM very stingy with magic items or something?

[Elysiume]

This is a good point, why are their Cha and Wis so ridiculously low? Is the DM very stingy with magic items or something?If so the DM is a very odd kind of stingy given that the sorcerer has a glove of free Maximize Spell (I'm wondering if OP's other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?596285-How-much-of-a-problem-would-be-free-Maximize-Spell) is related) and 5 extra known spells per spell level, both of which are absurdly strong items.

20 charisma is a strong casting stat for a level 1 sorcerer. I don't understand how a level 19 sorcerer has 20 charisma unless they built poorly, had zero control over what items they could buy/craft, and found no charisma-boosting items. Even the most half-hearted optimization gives you an 18 to start, 22 after ASIs, 28 with a headband of <casting stat>.

[Trandir]

If so the DM is a very odd kind of stingy given that the sorcerer has a glove of free Maximize Spell (I'm wondering if OP's other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?596285-How-much-of-a-problem-would-be-free-Maximize-Spell) is related) and 5 extra known spells per spell level, both of which are absurdly strong items.

20 charisma is a strong casting stat for a level 1 sorcerer. I don't understand how a level 19 sorcerer has 20 charisma unless they built poorly, had zero control over what items they could buy/craft, and found no charisma-boosting items. Even the most half-hearted optimization gives you an 18 to start, 22 after ASIs, 28 with a headband of <casting stat>.

Yea that thread is somewhat related but this glove is just for blasing.
About the magic items https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php%3F595807-A-rare-occasion-to-get-everything-one-can-want&ved=2ahUKEwiTyJKLv6LkAhWQ2KQKHVrgAN8QFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2_f_FkbOyRaQx77zPD70ek&cshid=1566889768097 they where in the same spot but did not got anything. The cleric has some sort of vow of povrety so it is hunderstendable but the sorcerer had nothing to do.

Also built poorly is an understatement of the travesty that they are.

This is a good point, why are their Cha and Wis so ridiculously low? Is the DM very stingy with magic items or something?

He usually is but we got a quite long timeskip sk they could have crafted, bought, go adventuring ecc... to get decent items.


Your sorcerer needs to fix his casting stat. There aren't really many good ways to improve DC beyond that (deliberately, a lot of the easy ways to get more DC were removed in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition) and he's well behind where he's expected to be at that level. What do you mean by 'Spell resistance reduces magical damage'? If it's being treated like DR but for anything at all that is magical, trying to blast anything with SR is just not going to work out well.

It would also be helpful for the Sorcerer to have a few single-target orbs/ray attack spells, so he can attack against (typically pretty low) Touch ACs and not risk exploding his friends by trying to area attack single enemies. Even the lowly Scorching Ray can be pretty effective at this, especially with free Maximizes thrown on.

With the houserules on magic weapons the Cleric probably would have been better off just buffing himself and engaging the dragon in melee if possible; cast Divine Power, go hit the dragon with a +30 bonus damage (at least +3 strength just from Divine Power, +19 BAB added from the special power, +8 from the enhancement level of the weapon) mace once or twice and you'll meet or beat the expected damage from getting the dragon to fail against a Disintegrate.. or possibly he's not doing that because he's afraid the DM will realize how dumb that is and take it away from him :smallamused:

Exactly here SR is just DR so a dragon qith SR 35 reduces all damage from magic by 35.

Yes this problem isn't that much of a problem if you use spells with SR: no but yesterday fight proved that he has 0 optimisation so helping him increase his DC is most likely to have any affect than to force him to take decent spells that will never be used and instead use that **** if a 3rd level spell.

Yea if the cleric goes full on divine fighter he would beat to a pulp nearly anything but now he decided to go from melee tank to full caster so instead of buffing himself he uses blast spells.


Have them learn spells w/o saving throws.

It doesn't matter what spells they know if they use lv 3-6 blast against dragons.



Start with ways to fix their casting stats. Wish for +5 inherent/ a +6 wonderous item for enhancment and +4 from level up is a neat +15 to your castin stat. Add age category for +1 to +3. Assuming they didn't start with something lower than a 16 in their casting stat and are not a race that deliberately gives them a minus they can reliably obtain a 32-34 stat. Without any special optimisation.

Then Earth Spell feat can give you a great boost to heighten spell.

With all these together a spell save DC 40+ is easy to archive.

Ok earth spell is great but a little feat intensive to be taken at level 18. Maybe the next PCs will use it.


You might find some useful stuff here:

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176.0

Thanks this will be usefull for a figher barbarian hulking thrower warhulk sometime in the future and for them there is the usual buy the damn magic items