EndlessKng
2019-08-27, 09:32 PM
TL;DR: I am curious to see what characters (or series) you feel act as good representations of Gestalt characters, to use as examples for other people. No need for full builds, but a line of classes would be cool to see.
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I have been thinking about this today, and thought I'd ask the internet. There are all sorts of examples of various D&D and Pathfinder classes, but one thing I haven't seen for various reasons are (possible) examples of Gestalt characters in fiction. I say "possible" because many that I've come up with could be statted as single-track characters, but could be Gestalt builds.
That idea is, roughly, that you see characters who appear to advance in two different paths or ability types that are, at least in game terms, usually not associated. For instance, Sakura in Naruto Shippuden (the post-timeskip part of Naruto) is a Monk-Cleric build; this could be done in multiclass or using Spheres of Power (which I love, by the way, but am wanting to avoid here for simplicity) but you could also build her as a Monk/Cleric Gestalt, IMO, as the character advances fairly evenly in both aspects (well... inasmuch as someone can go from having little in the way of character development beyond an unrequited crush and a natural 18 Intelligence at level 1 to being a badass high level healer and martial artist in the background, but it does appear that her traits as a healer and brawler are fairly even). Conversely, someone like Sokka, who starts as a skillmonkey type with some combat skills but not a full mastery, and then trains in swordsmanship with a master, wouldn't be a good Gestalt example, though he's a great example of a multiclass character - he developed Rogue skills, then combat skills. He also develops leadership skills, but that can be done without classes (i.e. through skills and feats).
The other thing (for this project) is that I want to try to avoid over-use of archetypes and variants. This is mostly because I'm looking to use these as examples for others when discussing Gestalt; as such, I don't want to have to point through a mass of variant versions of classes. I'd want to keep it to base and core classes from D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder 1st Edition - Gunslingers, Investigators, and such are fine, but I wouldn't want to have to have people jump through too many add-ons that would require shifting class features (alignment restriction removals are okay, though, and if you HAVE to give an archetype shift, it's not a hard rule). A similar request on non-core prestige classes - it's less of an issue, but I'd ask they only be used if they really fit. And please try to stick to standard gestalt builds and etiquette - it's not a good idea to use a double prestige class to advance two different sides at once (though I'm okay with using a Theurge-build on only one side IF both classes that benefit are on that side, and if the other side is something else altogether - if you can find someone who seems to develop two types of magic a little slowly but in conjunction while also advancing their martial or stealth skills, I'd love to see this.
I am not necessarily looking for full-builds - this isn't a competition - but it would be good to get at least a class list for the character, or an example character from a series (i.e. Rogue 5//Wizard 5, or Monk 20//Cleric 10/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10), and if you just feel like you want to make a full build, by all means.
So... yeah. What do you think?
A few of my examples:
Most Naruto characters can work. As mentioned, we see Sakura jump up in two distinct categories of talent over the timeskip with fairly even results - not necessarily perfectly even, but then again, Monk IS a Tier 5 class versus a Tier 1 Cleric or Tier 2 Shugenja. But many of the characters could be similarly explained - Naruto is a conjurer/ninja or conjurer/monk in part 1 (Shadow Clone being summoned copies of himself, or astral constructs for a Shaper instead), and then adds in some barbarian and psychic warrior (or similar) powers in part 2 as he draws upon the Jinchuuriki and develops an aura of power around himself simultaneously, and others seem to mix strange balances of powers as well.
Bleach, similarly, features a lot of potential gestalt builds. The "average" shinigami trains in both swordsmanship and magic (Kido), and usually to a fairly balanced level with a few outliers to either side (Renji being one who barely learns magic), but still achieving high power spells while not sacrificing martial prowess. Even those who don't become casters seem to have exceptional talent in martial arts (or just high levels of raw power, as Kenpachi doesn't seem to have any actual technique for most of the series, with his "special moves" consisting of removing a parasite from his eye and holding his sword with two hands. I am not joking about that).
For a non-anime example, I think you could make an argument for Batman, especially the Nolanverse version, mastering Ninja and Investigator from Pathfinder roughly simultaneously; he arguably had some of the alchemy/chemistry and detective skills from school and personal development, but in Batman Begins he does learn more about certain substances and alchemy, as well as investigative skills, while training with the League of Shadows, and continues to develop both together. When he is a shut-in in the third movie, he seems to return to both skillsets simultaneously, and his time in the pit doesn't advance either of those but does train him further physically and in terms of determination, furthering him as a martial arts type and some form of determinator class like barbarian.
Again, this is likely a topic full of argumentative topics, but I'd rather focus on adding examples rather than tearing down any. That said, be mindful and don't just argue that a given character could just be a gestalt build - I do want to try and focus in on those characters that develop skill-sets in conjunction but without suffering loss in one from the study in another.
---
I have been thinking about this today, and thought I'd ask the internet. There are all sorts of examples of various D&D and Pathfinder classes, but one thing I haven't seen for various reasons are (possible) examples of Gestalt characters in fiction. I say "possible" because many that I've come up with could be statted as single-track characters, but could be Gestalt builds.
That idea is, roughly, that you see characters who appear to advance in two different paths or ability types that are, at least in game terms, usually not associated. For instance, Sakura in Naruto Shippuden (the post-timeskip part of Naruto) is a Monk-Cleric build; this could be done in multiclass or using Spheres of Power (which I love, by the way, but am wanting to avoid here for simplicity) but you could also build her as a Monk/Cleric Gestalt, IMO, as the character advances fairly evenly in both aspects (well... inasmuch as someone can go from having little in the way of character development beyond an unrequited crush and a natural 18 Intelligence at level 1 to being a badass high level healer and martial artist in the background, but it does appear that her traits as a healer and brawler are fairly even). Conversely, someone like Sokka, who starts as a skillmonkey type with some combat skills but not a full mastery, and then trains in swordsmanship with a master, wouldn't be a good Gestalt example, though he's a great example of a multiclass character - he developed Rogue skills, then combat skills. He also develops leadership skills, but that can be done without classes (i.e. through skills and feats).
The other thing (for this project) is that I want to try to avoid over-use of archetypes and variants. This is mostly because I'm looking to use these as examples for others when discussing Gestalt; as such, I don't want to have to point through a mass of variant versions of classes. I'd want to keep it to base and core classes from D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder 1st Edition - Gunslingers, Investigators, and such are fine, but I wouldn't want to have to have people jump through too many add-ons that would require shifting class features (alignment restriction removals are okay, though, and if you HAVE to give an archetype shift, it's not a hard rule). A similar request on non-core prestige classes - it's less of an issue, but I'd ask they only be used if they really fit. And please try to stick to standard gestalt builds and etiquette - it's not a good idea to use a double prestige class to advance two different sides at once (though I'm okay with using a Theurge-build on only one side IF both classes that benefit are on that side, and if the other side is something else altogether - if you can find someone who seems to develop two types of magic a little slowly but in conjunction while also advancing their martial or stealth skills, I'd love to see this.
I am not necessarily looking for full-builds - this isn't a competition - but it would be good to get at least a class list for the character, or an example character from a series (i.e. Rogue 5//Wizard 5, or Monk 20//Cleric 10/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10), and if you just feel like you want to make a full build, by all means.
So... yeah. What do you think?
A few of my examples:
Most Naruto characters can work. As mentioned, we see Sakura jump up in two distinct categories of talent over the timeskip with fairly even results - not necessarily perfectly even, but then again, Monk IS a Tier 5 class versus a Tier 1 Cleric or Tier 2 Shugenja. But many of the characters could be similarly explained - Naruto is a conjurer/ninja or conjurer/monk in part 1 (Shadow Clone being summoned copies of himself, or astral constructs for a Shaper instead), and then adds in some barbarian and psychic warrior (or similar) powers in part 2 as he draws upon the Jinchuuriki and develops an aura of power around himself simultaneously, and others seem to mix strange balances of powers as well.
Bleach, similarly, features a lot of potential gestalt builds. The "average" shinigami trains in both swordsmanship and magic (Kido), and usually to a fairly balanced level with a few outliers to either side (Renji being one who barely learns magic), but still achieving high power spells while not sacrificing martial prowess. Even those who don't become casters seem to have exceptional talent in martial arts (or just high levels of raw power, as Kenpachi doesn't seem to have any actual technique for most of the series, with his "special moves" consisting of removing a parasite from his eye and holding his sword with two hands. I am not joking about that).
For a non-anime example, I think you could make an argument for Batman, especially the Nolanverse version, mastering Ninja and Investigator from Pathfinder roughly simultaneously; he arguably had some of the alchemy/chemistry and detective skills from school and personal development, but in Batman Begins he does learn more about certain substances and alchemy, as well as investigative skills, while training with the League of Shadows, and continues to develop both together. When he is a shut-in in the third movie, he seems to return to both skillsets simultaneously, and his time in the pit doesn't advance either of those but does train him further physically and in terms of determination, furthering him as a martial arts type and some form of determinator class like barbarian.
Again, this is likely a topic full of argumentative topics, but I'd rather focus on adding examples rather than tearing down any. That said, be mindful and don't just argue that a given character could just be a gestalt build - I do want to try and focus in on those characters that develop skill-sets in conjunction but without suffering loss in one from the study in another.