Create Mindscape, wtf?

[Selion]

I just read this spell, and it seems to me way unbalanced in respect to its level.
Even without abuses, the spell seems all over the place: it doesn't require LOS, so you can just spam it until a target of which you know the general location fails its save, at that point you can either probe your foe's capabilities dueling with him in a harmless mindscape (and he doesn't even know if it's harmful or not), force him in a letal duel in which you choose the most favorable conditions, or even just play hide and seek for a couple of hours, while your allies try to reach the helpless body of your enemy.

Anyway all of that would be just a fair use, what are exactly this spell's limits? Can i fill a custom mindscape with traps and overly high CR monsters? Can I create a submerged mindscape and cast water breathing, thus killing automatically any creature that breathes air? Can i place my enemy at hundreds of miles of distance?

This is a save or die spell, unless you are incompetent or unimaginative in its use, it doesn't require LOS and has a LOT of uses other than assassination.
It's just me or it doesn't compare to other 4th level spells, such as phantasmal killer?

[Kayblis]

It's a 4th-level spell that locks both you and one other creature into a separate, harmless reality while your real bodies are left more or less defenseless. You're in as much of a predicament as your foe here, and the idea of casting a spell multiple times until the target fails a save, without his knowledge, is not how it works. You know when you pass a save that something tried to affect you, in-character you feel the strange feeling of losing control and retaking it, and you're alarmed from that point forward. In the rules, as soon as you cast the spell offensively you're using your surprise round and initiative follows. The enemy may not know where you are, but you're not immune to detection either.

Sure, in a case of a whole party fighting a single enemy, turning yourself useless to do the same to your enemy is a good strategy. "Scouting an enemy to know how he fights" makes it sound like you think they're videogame NPCs with no actual mind to figure out what's going on, and assumes all that happens in the mindscape isn't remembered as soon as your enemy gets out. This is not a videogame.

Also phantasmal killer sucks as a 4th-level spell. Your first real save or die comes by spell level 5, and if you want to say "this is as good as a save-or-die if you capitalize on it", so is Sleep.

[Selion]

It's a 4th-level spell that locks both you and one other creature into a separate, harmless reality while your real bodies are left more or less defenseless. You're in as much of a predicament as your foe here, and the idea of casting a spell multiple times until the target fails a save, without his knowledge, is not how it works. You know when you pass a save that something tried to affect you, in-character you feel the strange feeling of losing control and retaking it, and you're alarmed from that point forward. In the rules, as soon as you cast the spell offensively you're using your surprise round and initiative follows. The enemy may not know where you are, but you're not immune to detection either.

Sure, in a case of a whole party fighting a single enemy, turning yourself useless to do the same to your enemy is a good strategy. "Scouting an enemy to know how he fights" makes it sound like you think they're videogame NPCs with no actual mind to figure out what's going on, and assumes all that happens in the mindscape isn't remembered as soon as your enemy gets out. This is not a videogame.

Also phantasmal killer sucks as a 4th-level spell. Your first real save or die comes by spell level 5, and if you want to say "this is as good as a save-or-die if you capitalize on it", so is Sleep.

The part which makes this spell unfair, IMHO, is that it doesn't require line of sight. That's why i say you could try it multiple times, in most situation you just hide in the neighborhood, in some house or in a room in a dungeon, guarded by your allies, and spam the spell until your target fails the save. There are certainly ways to prevent it, but it's better than most save or die.
It's not a sure kill, btw, if your target is a spellcaster too he may find a way to survive whatever harsh environment you put him into.
Furthermore you assume i'd play it like a videogame and that i would expect exactly the same reactions from my target, instead i think it's a fine way to guess his main strategies and his resistances (he's not aware he's in a harmless mindscape, so he would fight at the best of his capabilities).
BTW, it's not the only spell with such a versatility, for example i consider magic jar just as good, if not better, but magic jar is a freaking good spell itself

[Kris Moonhand]

Did you read the rules for mindscapes (http://nethystest.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Mindscapes&Category=Occult%20Locations), or just the spell? Because dying in an immersive mindscape just sends you back to your own body. You need to use instigate psychic duel to actually kill someone with your mind.

[Psyren]

Did you read the rules for mindscapes (http://nethystest.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Mindscapes&Category=Occult%20Locations), or just the spell? Because dying in an immersive mindscape just sends you back to your own body. You need to use instigate psychic duel to actually kill someone with your mind.

Not quite - it's true you go back to your body if you drop below zero hitpoints, but the caster of Create Mindscape determines whether the mindscape is harmful or harmless. If it's harmful, that damage actually carries over to your real body, meaning you'll come back in a dying or dead state.

With that said, there is a GM clause here - you must include a means of escape when the mindscape is created, and the method you choose must be possible (if difficult) for the target to achieve, but furthermore must be "reasonable" to the GM. So you couldn't create a Kaizo Mario (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkMuNRjodCQ) style deathtrap on the grounds that it's technically possible for a target to escape from, unless of course your GM lets you.

Lastly, you yourself have to be included in your mindscape, and you have to stay there (the mindscape ends if you leave.) If you make it harmful therefore, this carries an element of danger for you as well, though of course you can stack the deck in your favor. Basically you need a permissive GM to use this for risk-free assassinations.

[TheYell]

Yes it looks like a lot of fun. The only problem in my game was the logistics of making us take some of the characters to another map and making them fight it out while their minis remained on the main map, asleep.

Greater mindscape lets you take more than one creature in and make it a dead magic zone too.

So my plan was to have an underground arena in the dark, with an 18' wall around the sand, and a big heavy steel door to get out, and no magic, and they'd be up against my dragon cohort in the dark with no magic. Because like OOTS said in a panel, short of magic you're just a monkey, and I'm still a dragon.

And I'd be in the imperial box (i have darkvision, so would my dragon cohort) eating bonbons while they get devoured.

I asked in an earlier thread this year if "believable creatures" meant you could spawn creatures for combat. I got no answer to that one, but on reflection, that seems very unbalanced.

Also, if you use the Way of Ki supplemental from Legendary Games, you can have a ki pool with a feat called Ki Meditation, and take some monk vows to get that pool up, and then you can use Occult Adventures chakra rules to get some supernatural abilities at some risk to yourself. The point of that is, you can shut off certain schools of magic in a greater mindscape, like no conjuration, evocation, transmutation, but with your chakras open you still get to heal and fly and breathe fire in the mindscape.

But a lot depends on your GM.

[Psyren]

So my plan was to have an underground arena in the dark, with an 18' wall around the sand, and a big heavy steel door to get out, and no magic, and they'd be up against my dragon cohort in the dark with no magic. Because like OOTS said in a panel, short of magic you're just a monkey, and I'm still a dragon.

I'd rule that getting past a dragon in an enclosed area in the dark without any magic or magic items would count as "unreasonable."



I asked in an earlier thread this year if "believable creatures" meant you could spawn creatures for combat. I got no answer to that one, but on reflection, that seems very unbalanced.

You can only make (or at least control) one creature at a time with the regular mindscape - all the rest are pure illusions.

[TheYell]

I'd rule that getting past a dragon in an enclosed area in the dark without any magic or magic items would count as "unreasonable."

Awww I was just worried about the alignment shift that would probably be imposed...