3.5 New day new dip

[Trandir]

Well we fought a dragon and almost lost. This means big exp.

So far I am rogue 10/ shadowdancer 2/ warblade 1 and can take another level.

Dips worth considering:

Barbarian with ferocity ACF (from the web enhancement for cityscape)
Ranger with predator ACF (the wild shape ranger)
Scout (lot of skill ranks and possibly decent bonus with swift ambusher)
Exemplar ( lot of skill ranks+3 Skill Mastery+ access to iaijustsu focus and autohypnosis)
Maybe a single caster level?

Any other advice?


Edit:
The ToB says: "determine your initiator level by adding your level in that class +1/2 levels in all other classes".
So a swordsage dip is better at level 15 or 17 since it get access to lv 5 and 6 maneuvers respectively.
Investing more in warblade isn't optimal since a martial study feat provides more than the 2nd and 3rd level can offer with this table house rules.
Some of this rules:

The critical doesn't need to be confirmed but multiply only the weapon dice damage and isn't an autohit against anything.
First level in any class gives the same advantages as the first character level, max HD and 4×skill ranks.
You can crit fail skill check.
Take ten means add 10 to the roll so you can take 10 on UMD since you can skill fail the check.
SR apply to spells that list SR:Yes but here it simply reduces magical damage in a manner similar to energy resistance.

[pabelfly]

Warblade 2 lets you get much better maneuvers. I'd look at what you can do with a second level there.

[Trandir]

Warblade 2 lets you get much better maneuvers. I'd look at what you can do with a second level there.

Suck as? I already got Leading the attack, White Raven Tactics, Punishing Stance and Iron Heart Surge. And a second warblade level gives just 1 more known maneuver vs the swordsage 6 known and 4 readied.
That is a lot more for a single level isn't it?

[Silvercrys]

Yeah, it isn't true anyway, you have still only have access to 4th level maneuvers whichever class you take.

Only reason to take another level of Warblade over a level of Swordsage is if there's a 4th level Iron Heart or White Raven maneuver you want but didn't get with your 3 maneuvers last level.

You might argue that the level after that you could take Warblade 3 to get a 5th level maneuver, I suppose, but eh.

[pabelfly]

Suck as? I already got Leading the attack, White Raven Tactics, Punishing Stance and Iron Heart Surge. And a second warblade level gives just 1 more known maneuver vs the swordsage 6 known and 4 readied.
That is a lot more for a single level isn't it?

Not sure how you met prereqs for some of those maneuvers, especially Iron Heart Surge, but since you've managed to get third-level Warblade maneuvers already, getting fourth-level maneuvers doesn't seem like that big a jump, especially with the house rules that encourage first-level dips that your table has going. Don't mind me.

[Trandir]

We talked about the swordsage dip and I will delay it by one level so to get more for my buck. So here we are again any advice on other intresting 1 level dips?

[Demidos]

Fun dips include....

Cloistered cleric 1: Get a ton of skill points, and a bunch of useful domain powers that can also be swapped out for feats. This includes powerful things like "Reroll all 1s on saves" or "Gain +5 to hit or AC" (Pride domain and law devotion, respectively). Cloistered cleric is better than plain cleric since you're only doing a 1 level dip, so the loss of BAB and heavy armor is trivial.

Marshal 1: If you have a decent charisma, this can give you big boosts to sleight of hand, hide, initiative checks (for dex auras) or all your social skills (charisma aura).

This might also be a bit in the future (level 15), but Shape Soulmeld and Craven are both great feats for rogues looking to boost their skills or damage, respectively.

Of course, make sure you tune your character choices to be in line with the power level and temperatment of your party. Being too powerful can be as un-fun for everyone else as being too weak.

[Trandir]

Of course, make sure you tune your character choices to be in line with the power level and temperatment of your party. Being too powerful can be as un-fun for everyone else as being too weak.

Well thanks for the classes those are quite nice (sidenote: are they better than the other 3 I was considering? I'll probably dip on all of them soon or later but still)

And the power level in this party is broken beyond repair we have a: lv 18 cleric with 20 wisdom and 24 AC that goes melee, a lv 18 sorcerer with free maximize (only for damage) spell and spells known+5 for each level from 0s to 9th but uses only fireball and has a 21 charisma and a master of many forms (ecl 17) that uses 4 forms.

Some of the most broken character for raw potential optimized like ****. And the DM throws at us random enemies. So why not have some fun with mad dips?

[Silvercrys]

You ought to be able to trade the Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion as a bonus feat, with the number of skill points you have by this point that should be a pretty substantial combat boost at basically all times.

[Trandir]

You ought to be able to trade the Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion as a bonus feat, with the number of skill points you have by this point that should be a pretty substantial combat boost at basically all times.

I am not very familiar with all the things that you can do in 3.5 and I have no idea of what are you suggesting.

Also the party and the master keep callming me "the thief" and that I should not focus on combat so if they want to die because they fight with one less party memeber I'll just watch.

[Silvercrys]

Ah, sorry. Complete Champion has rules for trading Cleric domain access for "devotion feats" from the same book. Most of them are pretty bad because they're restricted to 1/day use and you have to burn turn/rebuke undead uses to use the feat again... but two of them are pretty popular/useful.

Travel Devotion has the 1/day restriction I mentioned, but it allows you to move up to your speed as a swift action once per round for 1 minute (10 rounds) per use. It's a fairly popular psuedo-pounce for Paladins and some melee Cleric builds, as well as archers (particularly Scouts/Swift Hunters) because they can't usually pounce with ranged weapons.

The other is Knowledge Devotion, which allows you to make monster knowledge checks (Knowledge: Dungeoneering for Aberrations, Knowledge: The Planes for Outsiders, etc.) and get pretty big bonuses to attack and damage rolls against that creature type depending on your knowledge check result. It doesn't have any use/day restriction like the other devotion feats do.

Cloistered Cleric gives the Knowledge Domain regardless of your deity, though there is a bit of debate around whether the Cloistered Cleric's "all knowledge skills are class skills" in their skill list is due to the Knowledge Domain power you wouldn't have if you swapped your domain access for the Knowledge Devotion feat.

[Particle_Man]

Another level of shadowdancer gives you a shadow buddy for flanking, fellow sneaky scout (incorporeal at that) and str damage purposes.

[Trandir]

Ah, sorry. Complete Champion has rules for trading Cleric domain access for "devotion feats" from the same book. Most of them are pretty bad because they're restricted to 1/day use and you have to burn turn/rebuke undead uses to use the feat again... but two of them are pretty popular/useful.

Travel Devotion [...]

The other is Knowledge Devotion [...]



How that is one good amd maybe even cheesy thing to do.
Another PC will enjoy the free travel devotion/knowledge devotion bonus but this one is not a fighter and already burns his swift action for WRT and recovery but this leaves the standard and mova action free to move around since again I refuse to join the fight. Probably trickery devotion will be one I will get from the cleric dip.




Another level of shadowdancer gives you a shadow buddy for flanking, fellow sneaky scout (incorporeal at that) and str damage purposes.

Yeah I need no flanking buddy since I refuse to expose this pc. Shadowdancer served to get a decent hips and get back some acf (evasion and the first uncanny dodge) no more levels are required.
Also that shade dies with a single hit against any enemy and I like my exp too much to waste them.
This is a skillmonkey/support rogue not an assassin. The dips I was considering add speed or skills both usefull OoC.

[bean illus]

Cloistered cleric. Skill access is cool, so is knowledge devotion, and 3 domain powers (which can be traded for feats).

Your original choices sound fun too.

[Saintheart]

You ought to be able to trade the Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion as a bonus feat, with the number of skill points you have by this point that should be a pretty substantial combat boost at basically all times.

One thing to watch on that is if your DM rules that when the Knowledge Domain goes away, so too does your capacity to treat all Knowledge skills as class skills. I'd check that before you traded it, Knowledge Devotion isn't a wasted feat slot even if you can't get it for free.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ask your DM about what spells are required to produce a necropolitan, then pay a spellcaster with the various Corpsecrafter feats and other boosters to raise you as a necropolitan on unhallowed ground? Become a necropolitan with rather large bonuses, and maybe retrain one of your feats to Human Heritage (so you can't be turned or rebuked as an undead).

If you have LA buyoff, take a level in ghost (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a), buy it off immediately, then take another level when you gain some XP, then buy it off, etc. Take malevolence and Leadership, and inhabit the body of your strongest minion (and make sure it has some great physical abilities and defenses you can use, such as a cave troll or hydra).

[Trandir]

One thing to watch on that is if your DM rules that when the Knowledge Domain goes away, so too does your capacity to treat all Knowledge skills as class skills. I'd check that before you traded it, Knowledge Devotion isn't a wasted feat slot even if you can't get it for free.

I'd say that the knowledge domain is the reason why you have access to all knowledge. That sayed keeping it isn't that much of a loss the question is what kind of god should a rogue follow.



Ask your DM about what spells are required to produce a necropolitan, then pay a spellcaster with the various Corpsecrafter feats and other boosters to raise you as a necropolitan on unhallowed ground? Become a necropolitan with rather large bonuses, and maybe retrain one of your feats to Human Heritage (so you can't be turned or rebuked as an undead).

If you have LA buyoff, take a level in ghost (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a), buy it off immediately, then take another level when you gain some XP, then buy it off, etc. Take malevolence and Leadership, and inhabit the body of your strongest minion (and make sure it has some great physical abilities and defenses you can use, such as a cave troll or hydra).

Yea probably not the best idea. This master allows pretty much anything but things that are "for monsters" or evil are restricted most of the time (no dark creature template for me). Another pc might enjoy becoming a ghost/zombie but for now let's keep it on class dips and not templates or monstrous classes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yea probably not the best idea. This master allows pretty much anything but things that are "for monsters" or evil are restricted most of the time (no dark creature template for me). Another pc might enjoy becoming a ghost/zombie but for now let's keep it on class dips and not templates or monstrous classes.Isn't there an item that grants the dark template as long as you wear it? It's not even *that* expensive, either.

[Korwin]

There is also the Lion Totem Barbar from Complete Champion for pounce.
But not that useful if you dont want to Fight.

Battle Dancer from Dragon compendium gives you Cha to AC.

[Trandir]

There is also the Lion Totem Barbar from Complete Champion for pounce.
But not that useful if you dont want to Fight.

Battle Dancer from Dragon compendium gives you Cha to AC.

Well the appeal of barbarian 1 in this case is fast movement (an halfling gets half his speed) and the totem powers arent that usefull if you do bot fight as you sayed.
It provides also rage variants and as bonus on the side a full d12 hp.

Battle dancer will probably be the dip a bard but this rogue has a 12 on cha. Still great option for a dip.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes there is one. 10 min/day you gain the benefit for less than 25k but that's not the pointErr, the continuous version is 22k.

Also, a level in monk allows you to treat your body as an unarmed strike and as a manufactured weapon for the purposes of beneficial effects. Note that enhancing via magic is a beneficial effect. You should be able to add things like throwing and distance and metalline and ghost touch this way...

[Trandir]

Err, the continuous version is 22k.

Also, a level in monk allows you to treat your body as an unarmed strike and as a manufactured weapon for the purposes of beneficial effects. Note that enhancing via magic is a beneficial effect. You should be able to add things like throwing and distance and metalline and ghost touch this way...
Yes the 10 minutes version cost 10k and for 22k you get the continuous one. I have completely wasted 2 class levels and 3 feats. And I am stuck with them. But that is not the point.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes the 10 minutes version cost 10k and for 22k you get the continuous one. I have completely wasted 2 class levels and 3 feats. And I am stuck with them. But that is not the point.That wasn't the point I was trying to make, but I guess that is the case. Maybe ask the DM to retrain a few levels?

[bean illus]

Well ... but this rogue has a 12 on cha.

What are you're stats?
Did you say halfling?
Should we keep suggestions to 1 level?

I've played a character that wouldn't fight. I always found something useful to do, but I had some magic. Cloistered with travel and trickery gets some great sneaky spells, speed, turn pool, some buffs. Taking 3 levels nets 2nd level spells, etc.

Travel Domain Spells
Longstrider: Increases your speed.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.

Trickery Domain Spells
Disguise Self: Disguise own appearance.
Invisibility: Subject invisible 1 min./level or until it attacks.
Nondetection: Hides subject from divination, scrying

And travel domain adds survival as class skill, which opens up various prcs ...

***
If you really don't want to fight, and have enough int, then 1 level of factotum gets +int to initiative, saves, and 2nd level nets access to any wizard cantrip.
Facto 3 nets all level 1 wiz spells, and +Int to all dex/str skills (hide, move, climb, jump, tumble, etc).

***
Favored soul has all good saves, and any spontaneous divine spell. Monk has all good saves, and acfs including imp init, invisibility, spell reflection, etc.

Combined fs2/monk2/facto1 for +10-14ish to all saves, and a small stack of noncombat goodies.

[Trandir]

That wasn't the point I was trying to make, but I guess that is the case. Maybe ask the DM to retrain a few levels?

Sorry I must have mishunderstood.


What are you're stats?
Did you say halfling?
Should we keep suggestions to 1 level?

I've played a character that wouldn't fight. I always found something useful to do, but I had some magic. Cloistered with travel and trickery gets some great sneaky spells, speed, turn pool, some buffs. Taking 3 levels nets 2nd level spells, etc.

Travel Domain Spells
Longstrider: Increases your speed.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.

Trickery Domain Spells
Disguise Self: Disguise own appearance.
Invisibility: Subject invisible 1 min./level or until it attacks.
Nondetection: Hides subject from divination, scrying

And travel domain adds survival as class skill, which opens up various prcs ...

***
If you really don't want to fight, and have enough int, then 1 level of factotum gets +int to initiative, saves, and 2nd level nets access to any wizard cantrip.
Facto 3 nets all level 1 wiz spells, and +Int to all dex/str skills (hide, move, climb, jump, tumble, etc).

***
Favored soul has all good saves, and any spontaneous divine spell. Monk has all good saves, and acfs including imp init, invisibility, spell reflection, etc.

Combined fs2/monk2/facto1 for +10-14ish to all saves, and a small stack of noncombat goodies.

Base stats: 8 27 14 14 12 12. (I got a belt of strenght +4, gloves of dexterity +7 and amuleth of healt +6)
Race: PHB halfling
That would be optimal since my table rules offers great bonus to 1 level dips but also 2 or 3 levels can be ok.

Now factotum could be good for a dip, 2 levels fetch basically nothing and the 3rd gets brain over brawl big one. That sayed 3 levels get me at best a +5 with a +6 int item to strenght and dexterity and while great I do not know if it is worth 3 levels.

Favored soul is great I can probably fit one level somewhere but I am a bit reluctant about this particular caster level dip.

Monk here are banned for some reason. But it would make for a great dip material 3 levels get 3 bonus feats and some decent ACF.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Arcane swordsage for at-will spellcasting?

[Trandir]

Arcane swordsage for at-will spellcasting?

Ok that variant is hands down one of the most broken classes I've seen so far.

I'll ask my DM but he probably won't allow it

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ok that variant is hands down one of the most broken classes I've seen so far.

I'll ask my DM but he probably won't allow itYou could always limit it to, say, bard spells and progression. Still pretty powerful, but you're going on 6 levels of spells instead of 9. Not to mention you're not on full progression either way. You're only dipping, so even with that, you're only casting some lower level spells at half CL.

You could also take a level or two in ardent with Practiced Manifester or Supernatural Transformation (Psionics). Some manifesting of powers on your level, but only a few per day (unless you go in for one of the MANY ways of acquiring power point regen, which would limit you to only a couple of manifestations per encounter, between which you'd need to regen your pp pool to do it again next encounter).

[bean illus]

Base stats: 8 27 14 14 12 12. (I got a belt of strenght +4, gloves of dexterity +7 and amuleth of healt +6)
Race: PHB halfling
That would be optimal since my table rules offers great bonus to 1 level dips but also 2 or 3 levels can be ok.

Now factotum could be good for a dip, 2 levels fetch basically nothing and the 3rd gets brain over brawl big one. That sayed 3 levels get me at best a +5 with a +6 int item to strenght and dexterity and while great I do not know if it is worth 3 levels..

It's just not true that facto offers nothing till Brains Over Brawn.

Int to saves +5 is way cool. Skill access is whatever you want. And your build has no magic ...

Detect Poison
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Dancing Lights
Light
Ghost Sound
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Open/Close
Prestidigitation

... all handy cantrips with out of combat utility.

At facto3; even with your dex a +5 to init and hips is still nice. But don't forget ...

Hold Portal
Protection from Evil
Shield
Grease
Mount
Obscuring Mist
Unseen Servant
Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Detect Undead
Identify
Charm Person
Disguise Self
Silent Image
Ventriloquism
Animate Rope
Expeditious Retreat
Reduce Person
... and more...

Plenty to use something every day/encounter (with umd)

Facto might not be your best choice, but those levels aren't dead or useless (did I say umd yet?).

Btw, umd can give huge out of combat utility to skillmonkey 'thieves' during high level play. How's your gm about umd?

[Trandir]

It's just not true that facto offers nothing till Brains Over Brawn.

Int to saves +5 is way cool. Skill access is whatever you want. And your build has no magic ...

Detect Poison
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Dancing Lights
Light
Ghost Sound
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Open/Close
Prestidigitation

... all handy cantrips with out of combat utility.

At facto3; even with your dex a +5 to init and hips is still nice. But don't forget ...

Hold Portal
Protection from Evil
Shield
Grease
Mount
Obscuring Mist
Unseen Servant
Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Detect Undead
Identify
Charm Person
Disguise Self
Silent Image
Ventriloquism
Animate Rope
Expeditious Retreat
Reduce Person
... and more...

Plenty to use something every day/encounter (with umd)

Facto might not be your best choice, but those levels aren't dead or useless (did I say umd yet?).

Btw, umd can give huge out of combat utility to skillmonkey 'thieves' during high level play. How's your gm about umd?

Well this is one nice list well done and thanks for the help. But I never sayed that it offered nothin untill level 3 but that 3 separate dips offered more (like sorcerer 1/ savant 1/ cleric 1) skill ranks and class features.

Factotum 3 offers 8+2d8 hp 6×(6+int) skill ranks, 3 inspiration points, one spell per day, +3 to knowledge checks, int bonus on ST attack and damage rolls and +int on all dex and str based skills.
Probably worth it but multiclassing 8 different levels seemed better to end this pc career.

UMD works as in the PHB. But you can take 10 (you pass a couple of minutes concentrating on the device) and get a +10 on the check. The wands and scrolls however are scarse (I still got one of silence, invisibility, divine insight cl 10 and inspiration cl 10).
Also with a magic items that costs 1800 gp one can cast any lv 1 spell at will thanks to the custom items rules, it might be a decent ivestment taking 4 or 5 of those.