Looking for Advice on "Stacking Metabreath" Fixes

[BlackOnyx]

Currently running an e6 campaign in which one of my PCs is playing as a Neanderthal Green Dragon Shaman.


As of late, this PC has begun to pick up a number of metabreath feats, namely [Heighten Breath], [Maximized Breath], [Lingering Breath], and (most recently) [Widen Breath].


When I initially okayed metabreath feats for his character, I wasn't aware that the Draconomicon (per RAW, at least) allows creatures to "stack" the effects of certain metabreath feats multiple times at the expense of waiting additional rounds.


Although it hasn't been a major issue until this point, the potential abuses of his most recent feat, [Widen Breath], raise some serious balance concerns--namely the use of hyper-widened breath weapons (on the scale of cities & nations) at the expense of days, weeks, or months of breath weapon use.


Particularly in an e6 setting, the idea of a single player being able to cloak the better part of material plane in acid on a whim (whether or not he ever takes the initiative to do so) seems a "tad" broken.


This in mind, I'd like to find a way to limit his metabreath usage without nerfing him to kingdom come. As a Dragon Shaman, his breath weapon is one of his most potent/exciting abilities and I'd like to allow him *some* leeway in its usage.


In the position of DM, what sorts of limitations might you impose to keep things "fair but fun?"

[Elves]

Seems like there are 3 options:

1) Ignore what Draconomicon says and rule that each metabreath feat can only apply once to each breath.
2) Cap the number of times a single mbreath feat can be applied to one breath
3) Cap the number of rounds a single breath can be mbreathed to (don't do this).

IMO 1) would be fine. If your player objects, ask what he thinks a reasonable application cap is. Since feats are less finite in E6, maybe give him additional stackability if he takes the feat additional times.

[Anthrowhale]

Capping rounds of delay at your constitution bonus provides some stacking and is consistent with metabreath prerequisiites.

[Elves]

Maybe combine that with a homebrew increased metabreath capacity feat, since Con boosting is harder in E6. So that the player can pursue stacking if they want, but in a graded way.

[Biggus]

I can't find a feat called Widen Breath, do you mean Enlarge Breath?

If so, there's no problem, because on p.66 of the Draconomicon it says "If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description" and Enlarge Breath has no such note.

[BlackOnyx]

I can't find a feat called Widen Breath, do you mean Enlarge Breath?


Apologies. You are correct. [Enlarge Breath] is what I had intended to comment on.



If so, there's no problem, because on p.66 of the Draconomicon it says "If a metabreath feat stacks with itself, this fact will be noted in the Special section of the feat description" and Enlarge Breath has no such note.


This is interesting.


In the paragraphs explaining how metabreath feats work (also page 66), they specifically give an example of "small dragon" using the [Enlarge Breath] feat twice to increase the range of his line weapon.


And yet, the feat description itself (as you mentioned) does not include that "Special" section.


...it would seem we have a bit of a conflict here.

[Sereg]

Maybe cap stacking to equal the number of metabreath feats taken?

[BlackOnyx]

Some good ideas here for sure.

That said, now that I've opened up this can of worms, I'm discovering a few more things.

Laying out everything on the table:


***

(A) As u/Biggus says, in Draconomicon, metabreath feats that should be stackable are supposed to include a "Special" section that allows for this.

The only feats in Draconomicon with such a description are:

- Clinging Breath
- Lingering Breath

There is a description in the introduction text that uses [Enlarge Breath] as an example of a stackable feat, but the description for the feat itself does not have a "special" footnote that allows for this.


***


(B) Both Clinging Breath and Lingering Breath appear in Monster Manual IV without any "Special" section stating that the effects are stackable.

Their entries this edition specifically note that they are "revised versions" of the feats listed in Draconomicon.

For some reason though, they also note "if you have Draconomicon, [feat xyz] is treated as a metabreath feat" which I'm not sure why they felt the need to include. (Maybe as a way of saying they counted as both metabreath and monstrous feats for those keeping track of categories?)


***


These two points in mind, do you think it reasonable to determine that stackable metabreath feats aren't really intended to be a thing?


I feel a bit bad taking away things I've already given (the PC has already been using clinging breath with the assumption he could stack it) but I get the feeling allowing it would be going against RAI and (quite possibly) even RAW.


(I wouldn't mind hearing your interpretations of the scenario.)

[Silvercrys]

In the paragraphs explaining how metabreath feats work (also page 66), they specifically give an example of "small dragon" using the [Enlarge Breath] feat twice to increase the range of his line weapon.


And yet, the feat description itself (as you mentioned) does not include that "Special" section.


...it would seem we have a bit of a conflict here.You should basically always disregard examples when they contradict RAW because the examples are fairly notorious for being poorly written.

They probably stacked in an earlier draft, the flavor/examples got written, and then the editor was like "wait, we can't let these stack otherwise you can get an arbitrarily large area from this one feat if you have a breath weapon" so it got patched before printing but the example was overlooked.

Per the RAW, the only self-stacking metabreath feat are Clinging Breath and Lingering Breath.

Edit: Hmm. It's been a very long time since I opened my MMIV, I'll take your word that it says they're updated. Seems like they decided even those being allowed to self-stack was too good or they just wanted consistency with Metamagic feats so none of them stack, since there isn't anything overriding the "you can't stack metabreath feats unless explicitly allowed to" in the MMIV and the special lines got stripped out.

It's ~possible that they intended to errata all metabreath feats to be infinitely self-stacking, but I doubt it.

[BlackOnyx]

You should basically always disregard examples when they contradict RAW because the examples are fairly notorious for being poorly written.

They probably stacked in an earlier draft, the flavor/examples got written, and then the editor was like "wait, we can't let these stack otherwise you can get an arbitrarily large area from this one feat if you have a breath weapon" so it got patched before printing but the example was overlooked.

Per the RAW, the only self-stacking metabreath feat are Clinging Breath and Lingering Breath.


I find myself under the same impression.



Edit: Hmm. It's been a very long time since I opened my MMIV, I'll take your word that it says they're updated. Seems like they decided even those being allowed to self-stack was too good or they just wanted consistency with Metamagic feats so none of them stack, since there isn't anything overriding the "you can't stack metabreath feats unless explicitly allowed to" in the MMIV and the special lines got stripped out.

It's ~possible that they intended to errata all metabreath feats to be infinitely self-stacking, but I doubt it.


Thank you for your thoughts on that. When I next meet/speak with the player, it will be nice to be able to reference that line of reasoning in my explanation.


(He's a regular DM himself, so I'd like to be as clear about my thought process as possible.)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I find myself liking the proposed solution that you can stack a number of times equal to your total number of metabreath feats (or perhaps half that number). That's pretty consistent with Heritage feats, which I think are a fair analogy to Metabreath feats on a Dragon Shaman.

[Biggus]

In the paragraphs explaining how metabreath feats work (also page 66), they specifically give an example of "small dragon" using the [Enlarge Breath] feat twice to increase the range of his line weapon.


Ha, I completely failed to notice that just above the line about stacking feats saying so in the "special" section was an example which contradicted it...

I agree with Silvercrys though, the feat text should take precedence over the example.



I feel a bit bad taking away things I've already given (the PC has already been using clinging breath with the assumption he could stack it) but I get the feeling allowing it would be going against RAI and (quite possibly) even RAW.


Personally, I wouldn't take away something he's already been using unless it was causing serious problems with the game, so I'd continue to let Clinging Breath stack. As he's only just taken Enlarge Breath however, I don't think it would be unfair to tell him it doesn't stack with itself, but I'd offer to let him choose a different feat if he doesn't want it on that basis.

That said, allowing it to stack a limited number of times using one of the methods proposed in this thread is also a perfectly reasonable solution.

[Zaq]

To be honest, I don’t see the benefit of allowing them to stack in the first place. Yes, I know it’s RAW, but I view a GM decree that no, they don’t self-stack to be an entirely reasonable way of keeping the game going.

Normally I’m all about letting players have fun with their toys, but something about self-stacking metabreath really feels fundamentally off to me.

[Silvercrys]

I'd be unlikely to allow self stacking more than twice, myself, and I'd probably apply the limits to Clinging/Lingering breath as well per the MMIV changes. Mainly because Clinging Breath is pretty terrible on round 3+ (max is 18+9, round 3 is 4, round 4 is 2, round 5 is 0) and Lingering Breath can still make a section of the battlefield basically uninhabitable, ever, by stacking it into the eons range or whatever.

You could also add a level 6 "epic" feat that either allows stacking or increases the stack limit by 1, but I don't know E6 all that well specifically so I have no idea what or if that breaks anything.

[Blackhawk748]

This is interesting.


In the paragraphs explaining how metabreath feats work (also page 66), they specifically give an example of "small dragon" using the [Enlarge Breath] feat twice to increase the range of his line weapon.


And yet, the feat description itself (as you mentioned) does not include that "Special" section.


...it would seem we have a bit of a conflict here.

Specific trumps General. It doesn't have the clause, therefore, it can't do it. It just means the example is wrong, and that's not the first time this has happened.

And I'm with the others. Self Stacking Metabreath feats can rapidly lead to insanity. Want someone dead? Just stack Maximize breath 10 times and they explode horribly.

Ya, when all it costs you is time (and after maximize breath you weren't using the Breath weapon again this combat anyway) unlimited stacking is bad.

[Quertus]

Specific trumps General. It doesn't have the clause, therefore, it can't do it. It just means the example is wrong, and that's not the first time this has happened.

And I'm with the others. Self Stacking Metabreath feats can rapidly lead to insanity. Want someone dead? Just stack Maximize breath 10 times and they explode horribly.

Ya, when all it costs you is time (and after maximize breath you weren't using the Breath weapon again this combat anyway) unlimited stacking is bad.

Stacking Maximize… doesn't do anything.