Glyph of Warding questions

[Yamatohekatsue]

Glyph of Warding states:
When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that later unleashes a magical effect. You inscribe it either on a surface (such as a table or a section of floor or wall) or within an object that can be closed (such as a book, a scroll, or a treasure chest) to conceal the glyph.The glyph can cover an area no larger than 10 feet in diameter. If the surface or object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered.
The glyph is nearly invisible and requires a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC to be found.
You decide what triggers the glyph when you cast the spell. For glyphs inscribed on a surface, the most typical triggers include touching or standing on the glyph, removing another object covering the glyph, approaching within a certain distance of the glyph, or manipulating the object on which the glyph is inscribed. For glyphs inscribed within an object, the most common triggers include opening that object, approaching within a certain distance of the object, or seeing or reading the glyph. Once a glyph is triggered, this spell ends.
You can further refine the trigger so the spell activates only under certain circumstances or according to physical characteristics (such as height or weight), creature kind (for example, the ward could be set to affect aberrations or drow), or alignment. You can also set conditions for creatures that don't trigger the glyph, such as those who say a certain password.
When you inscribe the glyph, choose explosive runes or a spell glyph.
Explosive Runes: When triggered, the glyph erupts with magical energy in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on the glyph. The sphere spreads around corners. Each creature in the aura must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 5d8 acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder damage on a failed saving throw (your choice when you create the glyph), or half as much damage on a successful one.
Spell Glyph: You can store a prepared spell of 3rd level or lower in the glyph by casting it as part of creating the glyph. The spell must target a single creature or an area. The spell being stored has no immediate effect when cast in this way. When the glyph is triggered, the stored spell is cast. If the spell has a target, it targets the creature that triggered the glyph. If the spell affects an area, the area is centered on that creature. If the spell summons hostile creatures or creates harmful objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and attack it. If the spell requires concentration, it lasts until the end of its full duration.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage of an explosive runes glyph increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 3rd. If you create a spell glyph, you can store any spell of up to the same level as the slot you use for the glyph of warding.
Source: Player's Handbook, p. 245

My question is about the surface the spell can be cast on being a 10×10 square. And it listed tables as an option for a surface. But says when used on an object if the object is moved more then 10 ft from the location it breaks the glyph and the spell does not trigger.

So some of my questions are:
If cast on a surface and the surface is moved will the spell break?
Example: you cast it on a 5×5 section of stone floor and someone uses mold earth to move the 5×5 section.
You cast it on a canvas that is part of a ship's sail, the canvas is a surface but it moves in the wind swaying back and forth, and the ship moves because of the wind also moving the canvas won't that break the spell?
At what point does a surface become and object because objects moving break the spell?
Example I cast it on a rug that's is 10×10 can I roll the rug up and move the rug then place it back down, the rug was a surface when on the ground, but an object when rolled up and being moved.
Another example it is shown in the spell you can cast it on a table, can you then kick the table so it slides along the ground and hits an enemy?
The reason I ask questions like this is I'm a DM of an eberron campaign and a player has saved up enough money to buy an air ship and has gotten the ship but he (an 8th lvl wizard) has just converted a few wizard scrolls into is spell book and he learned glyph of Warding he wants to ward the air ship so if they ever get invaded the wards can trap enemies, but the be wards will break if the object (the air ship) moves 10 feet but the surface of the airship like the hull, and main deck won't break the spell.
If I say the air ship is an object then the glyphs won't protect it much after the ship sets sail.
If I say it's ok I can see a player wanting to cast this on something like a rug because it's a surface then move it around in something like a bag of holding then try to use the glyph to make portable magic traps
So I'm trying to figure out how to make this call on one hand with both making a player happy and following the rules of cool I'm setting myself up for shenanigans down the road
Or I can let the player down and stop any kind of potential shenanigans from happening

[Quoz]

RAI the glyphs aren't supposed to be mobile, as they can be a way to store extra spell slots and to cast buff spells without needing concentration. Both are very potent effects, and making them tied to a location is a major point balancing them out to prevent abuse.

Putting them on a ship will be GMs call, whether the ship is going to be used mostly as a mobile base or if they will be flying it directly into combat. If he's putting feather fall on the guard rails and control flame to douse fires near the powder room, all well and good. If he's setting it so that the whole party can get fly, haste, and greater invisibility while jumping off the ship to launch a raid then that's a lot of abuse.

Same goes for other work arounds, like putting the glyph on an object in an extra dimensional space (portable hole or bag of holding) then moving the whole pocket dimension through real space. RAW I can see the argument to allow it, but the potential for abuse is quite high. Proceed with caution if you value game balance (and remember that enemies can prepare the same spells too)

[NNescio]

You move the surface, Glyph breaks (without discharging the spell/rune), the end. The spell is clear about it. It doesn't matter whether the entity is considered an object or a surface; "If the surface or object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered."

So, yeah, you can glyph a(n air)ship or a wagon or any other vehicle, but the glyph breaks if the vehicles moves beyond 10 ft.

(As for whether the planet counts as a moving surface, well, that's the same as the Immovable Rod dilemma, which is best handled by assuming the Material Plane is stationary, ala Oerth. Or via a tortured interpretation of relativity and moving reference frames, if you're playing on a planet that is known lore-wise to orbit around a star, like Toril.)

(Note that pre-errata the glyph only breaks when it's placed on an object. And the spell has a limited definition of what is considered an object [for the purposes of the spell] — it must be something that can be closed, like a book or a chest. Tables are one example that is explicitly called out as being a surface [not an object, which it can't qualify anyhow because it can't be closed], hence bypassing the movement restriction.

Post-errata, the spell received a well-deserved nerf, with the "breaking without discharging clause" also being triggered by moving surfaces.)

The extradimensional space loophole still works, like using Demiplane or Bag of Holding.

[Yamatohekatsue]

Putting them on a ship will be GMs call, whether the ship is going to be used mostly as a mobile base or if they will be flying it directly into combat. If he's putting feather fall on the guard rails and control flame to douse fires near the powder room, all well and good. If he's setting it so that the whole party can get fly, haste, and greater invisibility while jumping off the ship to launch a raid then that's a lot of abuse.

The glyph says only harmful spells can be placed in it, and breaks that down as summon spells, spells that give debuffs, and spells that deal damage
Summon lesser elemental, web, fireball for example so I'm not worried on that note.




So, yeah, you can glyph a(n air)ship or a wagon or any other vehicle, but the glyph breaks if the vehicles moves beyond 10 ft.
Post-errata, the spell received a well-deserved nerf, with the "breaking without discharging clause" also being triggered by moving surfaces.)

The extradimensional space loophole still works, like using Demiplane or Bag of Holding.

So what your saying is no my players can't protect their ship with this spell, but at the same time now that he has brought be this spell up for the rest of the party to see they can make items rigged to blow up and store them in a bag of holding
Greaaat because we have and artificer and it's on his spell list

[NNescio]

The glyph says only harmful spells can be placed in it, and breaks that down as summon spells, spells that give debuffs, and spells that deal damage
Summon lesser elemental, web, fireball for example so I'm not worried on that note.

The first line of the pre-errata version can be read that way, but this was later clarified by the errata to not be the case.


PHB errata (2016 & 2018) says:
Glyph of Warding (p. 245). The first sentence clarifies that the magical effect needn’t be harmful. The final two sentences of the first paragraph now read as follows: “The glyph can cover an area no larger than 10 feet in diam-eter. If the surface or object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered.”

(Bolded mine.)

Reprints of the spell (like the one you cited) also replaced the first line with "When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that later unleashes a magical effect."

(Compare this to the original pre-errata version, which read as "When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures, ...")

Ergo one isn't limited to harmful spells when keying one to Glyph of Warding.




So what your saying is no my players can't protect their ship with this spell,

I suppose the DM can rule the airship to be a frame of reference where spell effects are considered, in which case the surface isn't technically moving (relative to the ship), so the Glyph can be used this way. This will, however, have effects on other spells if ruled consistently, so illusions (and other ongoing duration spells that are cast at an arbitrary point in space instead of being fixed relative to a "ground") will now follow the ship. (There may also be some other unpredictable interactions, and it opens the can of worms for players to argue over whether something is big enough to count as a "frame of reference".) Some DMs rule this way (whether consciously or otherwise) because they don't want spell effects floating all over the space when a vehicle moves.




but at the same time now that he has brought be this spell up for the rest of the party to see they can make items rigged to blow up and store them in a bag of holding
Greaaat because we have and artificer and it's on his spell list

Yep.

(I suppose some DM might try to rule the distance moved as being "interplanar", hence breaking the glyph, but this will have weird consequences for movement and ranged attacks/spells through interplanar portals too, if ruled consistently. A reasonable-ish compromise is to consider the presence of the portal for distance calculations, with the distance been recalculated if the 'portal' is closed or moved. Even then though, the retroactive effects can seem weird and counterintuitive.)

[Bobthewizard]

Be careful with this spell. If you give in to what sounds like a reasonable interpretation they can easily abuse it.

I would rule that the glyph doesn't move with the ship. They can use it to protect the ship when it is docked but not when it is moving. I think that fits the idea of the spell better and it has less consistency problems.

I also wouldn't allow spells with a range to target something on another plane. You can shoot an arrow through a demiplane door but not cast a fireball through it. Spells with a range of sight work though. So no loading a demiplane with glyphs of fireballs then casting demiplane in combat for a huge explosion. Otherwise it's unlimited power.

I hadn't seen the errata so I also didn't allow glyphs with buffs. I'll have to consider how I'll treat that, because unlimited concentration free buffs are a terrible idea. If you allow buffs, they could stick their hand in the bag of holding, triggering the glyphs and get all the buffs they want in one turn.

Mobile glyphs of warding are a bad idea for party balance. The wizard becomes the only important member of the party if they can cast 50 spells in the first round.

[Lodgrum]

Here's the thing, though. Magic, by dint of being *magic* is already broken. While the argument for not making glyph of warding mobile to prevent abuse of the spell is one thing, you can abuse it just as much keeping it stationary, given enough time, effort, and money. Your BBEG has a fortress tower. He spends time and effort inscribing dozens if not hundreds of glyphs of warding all over the place, in tiny glyphs the size of a stamp. He could place dozens on the front door alone, all to trigger at once if someone (like an intrepid band of adventurers) arrives within thirty feet and does not state the password. The party has now been nuked by a barrage of fireballs, lightning bolts, and cones of cold (or more devastating spells), and it all falls within the perfectly legitimate description of the spell.

The real way to limit the usage of the spell is not to mindlessly agree with the errata in the 6th reprinting of the PHB to prevent the fun use of a tool in your cleric's, bard's, wizard's, or sorcerer's toolbox in creative ways. It is by, being the Dungeon Master and therefore master of the world, limiting the availability of the crucial material component required in order to create the glyph in the first place. 200gp worth of powdered diamond to cast the spell, which is consumed during the casting. If the party can't get their hands on diamonds, then they can't grind them into powder to use in making the glyphs.

[Silpharon]

You can line the walls of a Genie Vessel with buff Glyphs. Given that it's 200 gp per buff, and you can only enter the vessel once per long rest, I think it's balanced.

See here for details on an example build and applications:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623920-The-Emissary-of-Keranos-Build-(Armorer-Multiclass-Advice-Welcome)&p=24859149#post24859149

[Valmark]

You can line the walls of a Genie Vessel with buff Glyphs. Given that it's 200 gp per buff, and you can only enter the vessel once per long rest, I think it's balanced.

See here for details on an example build and applications:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623920-The-Emissary-of-Keranos-Build-(Armorer-Multiclass-Advice-Welcome)&p=24859149#post24859149

Unfortunately the Glyphs would break as soon as you move 15 feet, so unless you are laying an ambush well in advance (and so are staying in a single spot until you need to trigger the glyphs) it doesn't work.

[Azuresun]

The real way to limit the usage of the spell is not to mindlessly agree with the errata in the 6th reprinting of the PHB to prevent the fun use of a tool in your cleric's, bard's, wizard's, or sorcerer's toolbox in creative ways. It is by, being the Dungeon Master and therefore master of the world, limiting the availability of the crucial material component required in order to create the glyph in the first place. 200gp worth of powdered diamond to cast the spell, which is consumed during the casting. If the party can't get their hands on diamonds, then they can't grind them into powder to use in making the glyphs.

I'd rather just be honest and say "No" than pretend to say "Yes" and then effectively forbid it anyway.

[Silpharon]

Unfortunately the Glyphs would break as soon as you move 15 feet, so unless you are laying an ambush well in advance (and so are staying in a single spot until you need to trigger the glyphs) it doesn't work.

The inside of the genie vessel is an extra dimensional space, same trick as portable hole applies.

Can you imagine how wrecked your furniture would be if it sensed outside motion? :)

[Amnestic]

The inside of the genie vessel is an extra dimensional space, same trick as portable hole applies.


Portable Hole specifies it's extradimensional space on a different plane.

Genie vessel (and bag of holding, for that matter) does not.

[Silpharon]

Portable Hole specifies it's extradimensional space on a different plane.

Genie vessel (and bag of holding, for that matter) does not.
At first glance it may seem that way, but Sage advice is clear that an extradimensional space is outside other planes. Look under the adventuring section from the Sage Advice page below:

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015

An extradimensional space (aka an extraplanar space) is outside other planes.

[Valmark]

That's a misconception. Sage advice is clear that an extradimensional space is outside other planes. Look under the adventuring section from the Sage Advice page below:

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015

An extradimensional space (aka an extraplanar space) is outside other planes.

If the extradimensional space is inside the vessel, and the vessel is moved, how isn't the extradimensional space moved?

[Amnestic]

At first glance it may seem that way, but Sage advice is clear that an extradimensional space is outside other planes. Look under the adventuring section from the Sage Advice page below:

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015

An extradimensional space (aka an extraplanar space) is outside other planes.

You're moving the space though. Genie Flask notes that you can hear stuff that's outside, so it's not a separate, planar-independent location like demiplane is. Its position in the material plane is relative and moveable and the space reacts accordingly.

[Silpharon]

If the extradimensional space is inside the vessel, and the vessel is moved, how isn't the extradimensional space moved?

What's inside the extradimensional space cannot be moved by motion outside the plane. It's the same as a portable hole.

[Valmark]

What's inside the extradimensional space cannot be moved by motion outside the plane. It's the same as a portable hole.

A Portable Hole creates the space when you unfurl it, though (it says so in the item).

Also I realize that discussing the same thing with the same person in two different threads doesn't make much sense, so I'll probably only reply here for semplicity.

[Silpharon]

You're moving the space though. Genie Flask notes that you can hear stuff that's outside, so it's not a separate, planar-independent location like demiplane is. Its position in the material plane is relative and moveable and the space reacts accordingly.

It is a planar-independent space (as sage advice makes clear). The fact that you can hear outside is irrelevant, there are other ways people can sense things on other planes.

[Silpharon]

A Portable Hole creates the space when you unfurl it, though (it says so in the item).

Also I realize that discussing the same thing with the same person in two different threads doesn't make much sense, so I'll probably only reply here for semplicity.

Sounds good on the two threads thing. :)

As for portable hole, it creates the "hole" on unfurling, but it's clear the space itself is permanent. Whether the portal itself is moved (vessel) or disappears and reappears (portable hole) is irrelevant.

[Quietus]

The bag of holding trick is easy enough to manage, as you can't just open the bag and look in - you can pull items out of it, but you have to know what you're looking for. So if I fill a book with glyphs and then stick it in a bag of holding, I can't use those glyphs until I pull them out of the bag. And then as a DM I recalculate how far the book is from the original casting space.

As far as the genie bottle goes, I'd prefer to solve that one with a simple, "Please don't" to the player in question. That usually solves that issue.

[Valmark]

Sounds good on the two threads thing. :)

As for portable hole, it creates the "hole" on unfurling, but it's clear the space itself is permanent. Whether the portal itself is moved (vessel) or disappears and reappears (portable hole) is irrelevant.

It's irrilevant only if you consider the space to not be present in the vessel while you move it, which isn't stated anywhere.

[Lodgrum]

I'd rather just be honest and say "No" than pretend to say "Yes" and then effectively forbid it anyway.

I did not say they cannot use it, I said you can limit its usage. Powdered diamond isn't only used by this spell. Greater Restoration also requires it, for example. By limiting the amount of diamond powder the party can acquire you're not banning its usage entirely, but you are preventing them from getting enough to make 50 glyphs. Allowing for only enough to make 4-6 still gives them a fun amount to work with while not completely making whatever encounter you have planned moot.

The other thing is that, just by the rotation of the earth itself to create the day/night cycle, whatever you are casting it on has already moved more than ten feet, regardless of whether it's on a surface or an object that can close, not to mention the movement of the planet in its orbit around the sun or the just throughout the cosmos. Nothing is in a "fixed" location because the celestial body we're on is constantly in motion, we just cannot feel it. Either a place of reference needs to be identified relative to the glyph or we ignore the movement limitation and recognize what the magic should be tied to: the glyph that you inscribed itself.

[Silpharon]

It's irrilevant only if you consider the space to not be present in the vessel while you move it, which isn't stated anywhere.

I see, your argument is that the entirety of the plane is moving within another plane. I don't think things inside another plane would be effected if the whole plane "moved" from the perspective of another plane. If I took the Glyph outside of the vessel (like in the bag of holding case, which I don't think works), then yes there would be movement, but not if I create and use the Glyph in the plane of the vessel. This kind of reminds me of the aliens playing marbles with the universe at the end of Men in Black. :)

[MrCharlie]

I see, your argument is that the entirety of the plane is moving within another plane. I don't think things inside another plane would be effected if the whole plane moved. This kind of reminds me of the aliens playing marbles with the universe at the end of Men in Black. :)
So to jump in, the distinction is if a demi-plane (I think that term is used) or nested plane is still moving when you walk around holding it, or if it's completely separate from all movement.

It's not obvious one way or another-it would look the same. If we assume that all relative motion of objects is the same, there would be no effect of moving the plane on the objects inside. There would be no gravity except the arbitrary gravity of magic, no objects for the demi-plane to interact with, no air and no other fluid for the demiplane to have inertia relative to.

In other words, moving the entire demiplane in a perfect vacuum perfectly uniformly looks the same as translocating the entrance. The only thing that changes is if this and similar spells break because you are technically moving the objects within the demiplane.

[Silpharon]

So to jump in, the distinction is if a demi-plane (I think that term is used) or nested plane is still moving when you walk around holding it, or if it's completely separate from all movement.

It's not obvious one way or another-it would look the same. If we assume that all relative motion of objects is the same, there would be no effect of moving the plane on the objects inside. There would be no gravity except the arbitrary gravity of magic, no objects for the demi-plane to interact with, no air and no other fluid for the demiplane to have inertia relative to.

In other words, moving the entire demiplane in a perfect vacuum perfectly uniformly looks the same as translocating the entrance. The only thing that changes is if this and similar spells break because you are technically moving the objects within the demiplane.
Thanks for your perspective! I agree with all but the last sentence, are you really moving things within the demiplane? You may or may not be moving the demiplane itself (which is an esoteric question that likely can't be answered definitely), but inside of the plane motion can only be relative to that plane's space, correct?

[Keravath]

I had not realized that glyphs in books are actually useless since as soon as the object moves 10' the glyph is deactivated.

In my experience, glyphs are put on books to harm someone inappropriate reading the book or opening the object. I think there are several examples in published materials.

However, RAW, all you need to do is carry the book 10' from where you found it before opening it and there won't be any problem. If you are concerned someone added the trigger "if moved 9'11" then trigger" ... all you should do is throw the object.

This would likely be such common knowledge that anyone, thieves or a wizard would simply move anything before opening it.

Anyway, it seems counterintuitive that the usual triggers for glyphs inside objects that are used in the spell description are trivial to bypass.

If the object doesn't trigger on being approached, touched or moved - which can happen prior to opening - then the glyph is wasted since the object will likely be moved 10' before opening just to ensure that no glyphs are present.

[MrCharlie]

Thanks for your perspective! I agree with all but the last sentence, are you really moving things within the demiplane? You may or may not be moving the demiplane itself (which is an esoteric question), but inside of the plane motion can only be relative to that plane's space, correct?

I keep going back to the vessel being furnished, and that these furnishings are not flopping around like crazy when someone is moving the vessel outside of its demiplane.
The surface itself is still moving, it's just not being affected by any relative motion. Basically, the tables and stuff woulden't flop around just because the demiplane is moving, they would flop around if the walls of the demiplane were moving relative to items inside. Given the demiplane has nothing to push against and the entire thing is moving uniformly, this woulden't happen just from shaking it around-but they are still moving.

(In this interpretation)

Of course, so is the planet. Relative motion planes aren't specified in DnD rules, because rulebooks aren't textbooks.

[Valmark]

I see, your argument is that the entirety of the plane is moving within another plane. I don't think things inside another plane would be effected if the whole plane "moved" from the perspective of another plane. If I took the Glyph outside of the vessel (like in the bag of holding case, which I don't think works), then yes there would be movement, but not if I create and use the Glyph in the plane of the vessel. This kind of reminds me of the aliens playing marbles with the universe at the end of Men in Black. :)
Great, now I want to watch it again :p

That aside, for me it's kinda the opposite- the vessel it's the space (since you enter the vessel when you enter the space) and if you move the vessel you move the space. If the glyph is on the space then logically it moves.

I wasn't aware that the bag of holding's tactic was to put a book inside glyphed and pull it out- yeah, I too don't think it works. It quite clearly moved from it's original spot (I'm assuming here that it's been more then 10 feet).

So to jump in, the distinction is if a demi-plane (I think that term is used) or nested plane is still moving when you walk around holding it, or if it's completely separate from all movement.

It's not obvious one way or another-it would look the same. If we assume that all relative motion of objects is the same, there would be no effect of moving the plane on the objects inside. There would be no gravity except the arbitrary gravity of magic, no objects for the demi-plane to interact with, no air and no other fluid for the demiplane to have inertia relative to.

In other words, moving the entire demiplane in a perfect vacuum perfectly uniformly looks the same as translocating the entrance. The only thing that changes is if this and similar spells break because you are technically moving the objects within the demiplane.
It's not a demiplane- that is an important distinction. For example, the spell with the same name creates a door to said plane, which is yet another different thing from having your portable space always with you.
I'm not going to comment on the rest because the talk about relativity flew completely over my head- I haven't even understood if you're saying that a Glyph breaks or the opposite.


I had not realized that glyphs in books are actually useless since as soon as the object moves 10' the glyph is deactivated.

In my experience, glyphs are put on books to harm someone inappropriate reading the book or opening the object. I think there are several examples in published materials.

However, RAW, all you need to do is carry the book 10' from where you found it before opening it and there won't be any problem. If you are concerned someone added the trigger "if moved 9'11" then trigger" ... all you should do is throw the object.

This would likely be such common knowledge that anyone, thieves or a wizard would simply move anything before opening it.

Anyway, it seems counterintuitive that the usual triggers for glyphs inside objects that are used in the spell description are trivial to bypass.

If the object doesn't trigger on being approached, touched or moved - which can happen prior to opening - then the glyph is wasted since the object will likely be moved 10' before opening just to ensure that no glyphs are present.

I mean, this assumes that you know how Glyphs work, you think there is a Glyph you have the time to move it and that it's not too fragile to throw it.

Aside from that... Eh, those are just the common ones. It doesn't mean you can't make a glyph that triggers on approach.

[Silpharon]

The surface itself is still moving, it's just not being affected by any relative motion. Basically, the tables and stuff woulden't flop around just because the demiplane is moving, they would flop around if the walls of the demiplane were moving relative to items inside. Given the demiplane has nothing to push against and the entire thing is moving uniformly, this woulden't happen just from shaking it around-but they are still moving.

(In this interpretation)

Of course, so is the planet. Relative motion planes aren't specified in DnD rules, because rulebooks aren't textbooks.



That aside, for me it's kinda the opposite- the vessel it's the space (since you enter the vessel when you enter the space) and if you move the vessel you move the space. If the glyph is on the space then logically it moves.


It sounds like the main discrepancy between our takes is "what it means" to be on a plane of existence. I view a plane as being wholly separate from any effects from another plane - a blank 3D slate. So anything on that plane is entirely unperturbed by things outside of the plane. In this case, the notion that the plane's existence (the interior of the vessel) is held within another plane (the vessel token itself) does not and can not impact the former in any meaningful way. I view the vessel as more of a "portkey" (to cross into Harry Potter terms) that warps someone into the interior plane, but just like Rope Trick leaves no "space" in the place it was cast, the interior of the vessel as viewed from outside the vessel could not be seen (if, for instance the vessel was made of transparent glass).

[Valmark]

It sounds like the main discrepancy between our takes is "what it means" to be on a plane of existence. I view a plane as being wholly separate from any effects from another plane - a blank 3D slate. So anything on that plane is entirely unperturbed by things outside of the plane. In this case, the notion that the plane's existence (the interior of the vessel) is held within another plane (the vessel token itself) does not and can not impact the former in any meaningful way. I view the vessel as more of a "portkey" (to cross into Harry Potter terms) that warps someone into the interior plane, but just like Rope Trick leaves no "space" in the place it was cast, the interior of the vessel as viewed from outside the vessel could not be seen (if, for instance the vessel was made of transparent glass).

It's not a plane, it's an extradimensional space- it should still be pointed out I think (or I'm just overly nit-picking).

I too see two planes as being wholly different- the distinction I'm making in this case is because you're actively carrying and moving it with you. It's not Demiplane where you open a door to it and is otherwise sealed somewhere, nor is it like Leomund's Secret Chest that is sitting on another plane and gets teleported to your location and back.

It's also not true that what happens to the vessel doesn't impact the inside- destroying the vessel destroys the space much like with a Bag of Holding. The space is the vessel (or rather the inside of the vessel). Inscribing a Glyph on the wall means inscribing it on the vessel, which you are moving.

[Silpharon]

It's not a plane, it's an extradimensional space- it should still be pointed out I think (or I'm just overly nit-picking).

I too see two planes as being wholly different- the distinction I'm making in this case is because you're actively carrying and moving it with you. It's not Demiplane where you open a door to it and is otherwise sealed somewhere, nor is it like Leomund's Secret Chest that is sitting on another plane and gets teleported to your location and back.

It's also not true that what happens to the vessel doesn't impact the inside- destroying the vessel destroys the space much like with a Bag of Holding. The space is the vessel (or rather the inside of the vessel). Inscribing a Glyph on the wall means inscribing it on the vessel, which you are moving.

Ah, but it is on a different plane!

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015

The full quote from sage advice:
Are extradimensional spaces, such as a demiplane or the space created by rope trick, considered to be on a different plane of existence? An extradimensional space (aka an extraplanar space) is outside other planes. Therefore, if you’re on the Material Plane and your foe is in an extradimensional space, the two of you aren’t considered to be on the same plane of existence.

You may be right that the vessel space isn't a "plane" itself, but it certainly is not on the same plane as the material world.

[Valmark]

Ah, but it is on a different plane!

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015

The full quote from sage advice:
Are extradimensional spaces, such as a demiplane or the space created by rope trick, considered to be on a different plane of existence? An extradimensional space (aka an extraplanar space) is outside other planes. Therefore, if you’re on the Material Plane and your foe is in an extradimensional space, the two of you aren’t considered to be on the same plane of existence.

You may be right that the vessel space isn't a "plane" itself, but it certainly is not on the same plane as the material world.

I'm not saying that it's on the same plane, I'm saying that it's not another plane (which isn't stated in the Sage Advice you quoted either).

And while it's not on the same plane, being the inside of the vessel you can move it by moving the vessel. It is destroyed if you destroy the vessel- and it's present enough to hear what happens outside (well, for the character to hear what happens outside).

[Silpharon]

I'm not saying that it's on the same plane, I'm saying that it's not another plane (which isn't stated in the Sage Advice you quoted either).

And while it's not on the same plane, being the inside of the vessel you can move it by moving the vessel. It is destroyed if you destroy the vessel- and it's present enough to hear what happens outside (well, for the character to hear what happens outside).

Ok, so your interpretation of the inner plane is that it is affected by the outside plane because of how they are tied together. That's fine - we'll agree to disagree there, but I see and respect your position. :)

[Valmark]

Ok, so your interpretation of the inner plane is that it is affected by the outside plane because of how they are tied together. That's fine - we'll agree to disagree there, but I see and respect your position. :)

Likewise. And yeah, that seems a good definition of my interpretation.

[Dr. Cliché]

You cast the Glyph of Warding, the world continues to spin on its axis thus moving the Glyph more than 10ft and causing it to instantly deactivate. :smallbiggrin:

[Lodgrum]

You cast the Glyph of Warding, the world continues to spin on its axis thus moving the Glyph more than 10ft and causing it to instantly deactivate. :smallbiggrin:

Exactly. Due to the very nature of how even if we appear to be at rest, we are still being moved by the world itself, the spell simply cannot function with the way it is written. Therefore, movement of the object or surface should not break the glyph since the magic should be tied to the glyph itself and not the place where the spell was cast.

[MrCharlie]

Exactly. Due to the very nature of how even if we appear to be at rest, we are still being moved by the world itself, the spell simply cannot function with the way it is written. Therefore, movement of the object or surface should not break the glyph since the magic should be tied to the glyph itself and not the place where the spell was cast.
You can get around this by arguing that when it says "where you cast this spell" it's arguing for a language dependent interpretation of location, not some scientific definition of "This location in 3-d cartesian space". Hence the glyph of warding cast on your front porch isn't cast at UTM coordinate X,Y but rather on your front porch.

Otherwise, no spells that are cast in a location work. The location is moving relative to a non-moving object, so the spell flies off the surface of the globe at some insane relative motion and either does nothing or (in some hilarious instances) tears a hole through the planet on it's way out (wall of force, anyone?).

On the other hand, you can create a table lore where reference frames determine if an object is moving, and some sort of core assumption that locations and motion is defined to the reference frame of the planet, or to the reference from of it's containing object, or some other determination-and some groups will have fun playing with that kind of magic science rulemaking.

[Lodgrum]

In which case, if you need to establish a point of reference, a vehicle (such as a ship or carriage) should be able to be warded. Then, if you are able to establish another object or a creature as the point of reference, so long as the object is not moved or the point of reference is not moved more than 10' away from the glyph, it should still work. A wizard wards his spellbook to prevent others from reading it. He keeps his spellbook on him at all times. The rogue sneaks it out of his pack one night and opens it while he's asleep. BOOM. Or the cleric wards his shield for contingencies when encountering dragons, but he left it in his room while he went to the bath. He's moved too far away from the shield, the glyph fades.

[JackPhoenix]

You cast the Glyph of Warding, the world continues to spin on its axis thus moving the Glyph more than 10ft and causing it to instantly deactivate. :smallbiggrin:

Imagine playing in a setting where the world isn't the center of the universe, and everything else orbits is.

[Keravath]

I cast the glyph of warding on the deck of my airship which I define as the fixed and immobile frame of reference for the spell casting. The rest of the world simply moves relative to my airship.

You can translate the reference point for motion to anything you like. So the wording of spells that say if they are moved 10' they deactivate are at best ambiguous if the DM runs a world that uses any sort of real world physics in its composition.

Even in D&D there are celestial objects that move - the sun rises and sets, moons have a pattern (unless these are just fancy projections in the sky and have no other meaning).

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: does the glyph ward against Thread Necromancy (from all the way back at post #7)?