Uptier base classes

[Anthrowhale]

What are the best ways to up-tier the tier 4/5/6 class concepts? The goal here is covering the quintessential abilities of low-tier base classes on a tier 1 chassis without unduly compromising the Tier 1 status. This goal is extreme, but I expect success to imply Tier 2 or Tier 3 versions are possible. The means here can vary: theurging feats, ACFs, and prestige classes all seem relevant. The monk build probably provides a benchmark for cost: at most 2 feats and at most 2 levels of spell advancement from a tier 1 caster.

Examples:

Iconic abilities: Melee attack, Rage

Barbarian 20 -> Druidic Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger)(-Animal companion -Spontaneous Summons +Rage +Barbarian Fast Movement) 20. With Wild Shape based strength this makes a Barbarian++.



Iconic abilities: Lore, Spells, Skills

Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 19 taking the Divine Inspiration feat (Dragon #333). You have Lore from cloistered cleric, plentiful skill ranks (enhanced if you take Able Learner), as well as the cleric skill spells (Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar). You also have full bardic music via the Divine Inspiration feat.

Cloistered Cleric 5/Halfling Whistler 2/Heartfire Fanner 1/Cloistered Cleric 12 taking Negotiator, Skill Focus(Perform), and Divine Inspiration feats. This avoids losing a level of spell advancement at the cost of 2 feats. Halfling Whistler is there to grant access to Perform. An alternative is Mystic Wanderer, although that may require more than 2 levels.



Iconic Abilities; Melee attack, Channel Spell, Spells

(from rebel7284) Duskblade 20 -> (Cloistered) Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Other cleric prestige classes 13. Ordained Champion provides a form of channel spell while cleric provides much more advanced spell access including the killer Surge of Fortune + Sense Weakness which combines with a Vorpal Sword to autokill many opponents.

Duskblade 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Duskblade 5 Use the Apprentice[Criminal] feat for the Bluff skill, take Spell Focus[Evil] and acquire Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole. This starts slower but it plausibly reaches tier-1 via Ur-Priest casting which infamously gives 9th level spells as early as level 14.



Iconic Abilities: Melee Attacks, Heavy Armor&Shields, Feats

Fighter 20 -> Cleric[War Domain, Spell domain] 20. Heavy armor, and full BAB once Divine Power comes online. Choose any preferred martial weapon via the War Domain and consider Holy Warrior as a feat. By level 9 you can autocrit via Surge of Fortune + Sense Weakness. Add in a vorpal weapon to autokill many opponents. For feats, use Anyspell[Heroics] and Triadspell.

Erudite (Spell to Power) 6/Anarchic Initiate 2/Slayer 10/Anarchic Initiate 2 taking the feats Overchannel and Track. This loses one level of power advancement but the arsenal of psionic powers (including heroics) more than makes up for it. Heavy Armor and martial weapons come from Slayer.



Iconic Abilities: Unarmed damage, AC bonus, Flurry of blows, Fast Movement
Monk 20 -> Monk 1/Wizard 4/Enlightened Fist 5/Master of the East Wind 10 provides provides full monk abilities with an item. Combined with Wraith Strike and Greater Mighty Wallop, it can crank out quite substantial damage. This sacrifices 2 levels of spell casting and 2 feats (Carmendine Monk/Kung Fu Genius and Combat Casting).

(from rebel7284) Monk 20 -> Monk 1/Spell to Power (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) Erudite 19 taking the feats Monastic Training and Tashalatora. This provides an extremely adaptable psion with monk abilities.



Iconic Abilities: Melee attack, Weak Turning, Divine Grace,

Paladin 20 -> Champion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cleric) (=-Turn Undead + Smite + Aura of Courage) Cleric 7/Witch Hunter 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Cleric 11. Smite, a divine grace variant, and full BAB via Divine Power. You lack a mount, but you could pick one up via Wild Cohort.



Iconic abilities: Melee or Ranged Attack, Favored Enemy, Skills

Ranger 20 -> Deadly Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid)(=-Wild Shape +Monk AC +Monk Fast Movement +Favored Enemy +Swift Tracker +Track) Druid 20. Favored Enemy + tracking is great. At high levels, use Owl's insight + Intuitive attack to make up for relatively low BAB.



Iconic abilities: Skills, Sneak Attack

Rogue 20 -> Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer[Hunter's Eye, Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar, ??] 10/Arcane Trickster 5 provides a "Tier 1 rogue" which can do pretty much anything that a Rogue can do except plausibly better. The Intelligence focus provides a similar number of skills with much higher skill checks. With Hunter's Eye you get 14d6 sneak attack easily, Wraithstrike means they nearly always hit, and polymorph means many additional attacks/round to crank up applications. This requires 1 feat (Practiced Spellcaster).

Rogue 20 -> Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)[Trickery domain, Travel Domain, Knowledge Devotion] 4/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Cloistered Cleric 12 using 1 feat(Sacred Outlaw) creates a tier 1 "Rogue" with 10d6 sneak attack, slightly fewer skill ranks, much higher skill checks, fighter+ full attack (via divine power), and single-level retarded Cleric casting.



Iconic abilities: Skirmish, Skills

Scout 20 -> Scout 1/Druid 19 taking the Swift Avenger feat. A little light on skills (4+Int instead of 6+Int), but capable of full skirmish.



Iconic abilities: Illusion/Shadow magic

(from rebel7284) Shadowcaster 20 -> Illusionist 5/Shadowcrafter 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter +7/Nightmare Spinner 1 taking Spell Focus[Illusion] and Greater Spell Focus[Illusion]. See the shadowcraft mage handbook (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=5638.0) for how to abuse.

[ngilop]

So... you are doing it wrong.


You are not up 'tiering' anything. Just taking tier 1 classes and fulfilling the same rules. Also, the typical stuff those 'tier' 1 classes are capable of.


Unless if course what you really meant to ask instead of " how do you up 'tier' 4/5/6?" You meant how can I take a 'tier' 1 class do what those lower tiers can do more so than they already can?


I mean the latter question you don't even need to ask cleric 20 is vastly superior to fighter OR paladin 20 with just a feat or three.

[Rebel7284]

Monk -> Monk 2/Spell to Power Erudite 18 (Tashalatora feat)
Bard -> Sublime Chord and/or Heartfire Fanner

[Anthrowhale]

So... you are doing it wrong.

I may not be expressing it well. Let me try again.

"Fighter" is a class, but also a character concept: most commonly, the melee master who can dish out damage toe-to-toe. The "Fighter" class does this relatively poorly. Warblade does it a fair bit better, so it's an uptier instantation of a Fighter. Cleric is uptier from that and it's telling: a level 9 Cleric's ability to autocrit is often encounter ending.

I'm asking something like: "If a player wants to play a Fighter what can you tell them to play instead so that they will be both happy and not left behind at the table?"

[Elkad]

I may not be expressing it well. Let me try again.

"Fighter" is a class, but also a character concept: most commonly, the melee master who can dish out damage toe-to-toe. The "Fighter" class does this relatively poorly. Warblade does it a fair bit better, so it's an uptier instantation of a Fighter. Cleric is uptier from that and it's telling: a level 9 Cleric's ability to autocrit is often encounter ending.

I'm asking something like: "If a player wants to play a Fighter what can you tell them to play instead so that they will be both happy and not left behind at the table?"

The problem is that CoDzilla isn't a Fighter. Among other things, you have to manage a huge pile of buffs. Which some players don't want, either because they want a character that is easy to play, or they like the idea of being a mundane in a magic world.

Warblade is OK. You have to pick your maneuvers, but management is easy, both in your daily readied ones, and in the combat usage. Play a card or two during your turn. Or don't, and get all your discards back.

[Rebel7284]

Shadowcaster -> Illusionist 5/Shadowcrafter 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter +7/Nightmare Spinner 1
Duskblade -> (Cloistered) Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Other cleric prestige classes 13 OR Hit and Run Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5/X 3

[Anthrowhale]

Monk -> Monk 2/Spell to Power Erudite 18 (Tashalatora feat)
This seems good.


Bard -> Sublime Chord and/or Heartfire Fanner
Sublime Chord seems more tier-2. Do you have a more complete build using Heartfire Fanner?

For Bard, I was considering Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 19 with the Divine Inspiration feat. This gives full bardic music, Cloistered Cleric's lore, lots of skill points, plus the ability to make very high skill checks as a cleric.


Shadowcaster -> Illusionist 5/Shadowcrafter 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter +7/Nightmare Spinner 1
Duskblade -> (Cloistered) Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Other cleric prestige classes 13
Seems good, added.


OR Hit and Run Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 5/Abjurant Champion 5/X 3
Losing 3 levels of advancement seems rough---that might knock the wizard down to Tier 2.

[zlefin]

I may not be expressing it well. Let me try again.

"Fighter" is a class, but also a character concept: most commonly, the melee master who can dish out damage toe-to-toe. The "Fighter" class does this relatively poorly. Warblade does it a fair bit better, so it's an uptier instantation of a Fighter. Cleric is uptier from that and it's telling: a level 9 Cleric's ability to autocrit is often encounter ending.

I'm asking something like: "If a player wants to play a Fighter what can you tell them to play instead so that they will be both happy and not left behind at the table?"

that depends heavily on what the table's optimization level is, and what tier classes the others are playing, and whether there's a gentleman's agreement to not break the game with the top tier classes. Generally speaking, getting up to tier 3 is enough to not be left behind on typical adventures; if you're playing very high op, there's just no substitute for the absurd power of high end spells.

[Anthrowhale]

The problem is that CoDzilla isn't a Fighter. Among other things, you have to manage a huge pile of buffs.
This is not my experience. Instead, you can just tell them about a few key buffs, which they are comfortable enough managing those, similar to a Warblade. Running around at high levels as a super-lethal fighter shouting "Off with your head!" is fine, but they also retain the innate ability to grow into a wider range of the cleric's abilities if desired.

[Efrate]

Sadly you are making it too complicated. Take 1 or 2 levels in base class for prereqs, then cleric/druid/wizard for 18 or 19. Pick the list that has options best suited for your role. You do not even need prcs, a player who wants/needs you to do this won't want to track all that.

Cleric list better for heavy armor types or frontline. Domains can get skill focused stuff. Cloistered for lore. Mobility and most sneak is better on the wizard list. Nature themed is the druid list. There is enough overlap that you can choose most any list for most any concept but that would be my breakdown.

DMM for divine power for the frontline, maybe divine or devotion feats to use any miscellaneous turns you have. Barbarian for pounce and/or improved trip.

Wizard takes the movement spells like fly, spider climb, dimension door and the like. For stealth he takes silence, invisibility, maybe some illusions. For scouting he takes some divinations like clairaudience/clairvoyance, and the darkstalker feat.

Anyone who wants a mount go druid and ride your companion. Take natural bond feat and some animal buff spells to keep your mount safe and relevant.

[Kurald Galain]

What are the best ways to up-tier the tier 4/5/6 class concepts?
Use Pathfinder.

Rogue 20 => PF Unchained Rogue 20 with the spellcasting talent
Fighter 20 => Iron caster
Paladin 20 => PF Paladin 20
Barbarian 20 => Bloodrager 20
Ranger 20 => Hunter 20
Monk 20 => Unchained Monk 20
Duskblade 20 => Magus 20

This assumes you want tier 3, of course. If you want tier 1, then everything => (some kind of archetype and/or specialist) wizard 20.

[Troacctid]

I keep a list of prestige classes that can elevate non-casters.

* = spell-less

For rogues and skillmonkeys:
Assassin
Avenger
Cabinet Trickster*
Cancer Mage*
Chameleon
Charlatan*
Child of Khyber*
Disciple of Baalzebul*
Disciple of Mephistopheles*
Dragonmark Heir*
Dungeon Delver*
Elocater
Exemplar
Eye of Xanathar*
Fatemaker
Halfling Whistler
Jaunter*
Jobber*
Life Eater*
Magic Filcher
Master of Masks*
Master of the South Wind
Mole*
Mountebank*
Paragnostic Initiate*
Psibond Agent*
Psionic Assassin
Scorpion Heritor*
Shade Hunter
Shadowbane Stalker
Slayer of Domiel
Squire of Legend
Telflammar Shadowlord
Temple Raider
Trapsmith
Twisted Lord*
Umbral Disciple*
Unseen Seer
Urban Savant
Vigilante
Watch Detective*

For warriors in general:
Beloved of Valarian
Black Blood Cultist*
Bloodstorm Blade*
Chameleon
Consecrated Harrier
Crusader*
Deepstone Sentinel*
Divine Crusader
Dragon Disciple
Eternal Blade*
Fist of Raziel
Hellreaver*
Horizon Walker*
Infused Warrior*
Ironsoul Forgemaster*
Jaunter*
Knight of the Raven
Knight of the Weave
Master of Many Forms
Master of Masks*
Ordained Champion
Paragnostic Initiate*
Primeval*
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Sanctified One*
Slayer
Soldier of Light
Suel Arcanamach
Swordsage*
Tainted Warrior*
Telflammar Shadowlord
Thrall of Demogorgon*
Thrall of Juiblex*
Thrall of Orcus*
Ur-Priest
War Mind
Warblade*
Warshaper*
Wildrunner*

For barbarians:
Bear Warrior*
Champion of Gwynharwyf
Disciple of Thrym
Frenzied Berserker*
Runescarred Berserker

For monks:
Disciple of Mephistopheles*
Dragon Descendant*
Enlightened Fist
Fist of Dal Quor*
Henshin Mystic*
Jaunter*
Master of the East Wind
Master of the North Wind
Master of the South Wind
Master of the West Wind
Psionic Fist
Sacred Fist
Shen*
Tattooed Monk*
Telflammar Shadowlord
Zerth Cenobite

[Anthrowhale]

Sadly you are making it too complicated. Take 1 or 2 levels in base class for prereqs, then cleric/druid/wizard for 18 or 19. Pick the list that has options best suited for your role. You do not even need prcs, a player who wants/needs you to do this won't want to track all that.

Many of the up-tier alts have this structure. Do you have a suggestion for how to improve them?


Use Pathfinder.
This seems like plausibly good advice that I'm not familiar enough with.


This assumes you want tier 3, of course. If you want tier 1, then everything => (some kind of archetype and/or specialist) wizard 20.
Do you have particular suggestions here?


I keep a list of prestige classes that can elevate non-casters.

Winnowing down, the set compatible with T1 classes is:


Enlightened Fist 4/5
Master of the East Wind 10/10
Master of the North Wind 5/5
Master of the West Wind 10/10
Sacred Fist 6/7

Barbarian: None


Fist of Raziel 9/10
Knight of the Raven 9/10
Ordained Champion 2/3 or 3/5
Ruby Knight Vindicator 4/5 or 8/10
Slayer 9/10
Ur-Priest 10/10

Should this include Abjurant Champion? Eldritch Knight?


Elocater 3/4 or 5/7
Halfling Whistler 10/10
Magic Filcher 1/1 or 2/3 or 3/5
Psychic assassin 1/2 or 2/4
Shadowbane Stalker 3/3 or 7/8
Squire of Legend 2/3
Unseen Seer 10/10
Urban Savant 9/9

Maybe add Ardent Dilettante and Dwarven Chanter?

[Karl Aegis]

The tier list says if you take a level in a tier 1 class you're a tier 1 character. Just slap a level of wizard in your build and you are "uptiered".

[Lans]

For Fighter-Wizard or Sorceror/Eldritchknight/Other Prc with full BAB.

Take Heroics as a spell, max out CL, extend it, and take the Echoing spell.

[Nifft]

Barbarian: None



Troacctid already listed some great options, including Runescarred Berserker which elevates the Barbarian significantly.

There's also generic good stuff like Chameleon (humanity pending).

[Anthrowhale]

I reorganized the OP to be a little bit clearer and added a couple build stubs.


The tier list says if you take a level in a tier 1 class you're a tier 1 character. Just slap a level of wizard in your build and you are "uptiered".
This is not what I'm looking for.

For Fighter-Wizard or Sorceror/Eldritchknight/Other Prc with full BAB.

I'm tempted by this, but it seems like the details generate caveats. Eldritch Knight requires all martial weapons and 3rd level spells, so the easiest way to do that is via something like Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5 using (say) Sanctum Spell for early qualification. It's somewhat unfortunate that you lose 2 levels of casting particularly in comparison to a straight-up Cleric. I guess a Neraph could go Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5?


Troacctid already listed some great options, including Runescarred Berserker which elevates the Barbarian significantly.
Runescarred Berserker substantially enhances a Barbarian, but not enough to be considered Tier 1. Druidic Avenger is the only way I've found to make a "Tier 1 Barbarian". The same seems to apply to a Chameleon.