Does Encumbrance Increase Immersion or Simply Solve Issues?

[Bjarkmundur]

I'm debating with my self whether to include encumbrance rules in my traditional session 0 explanation line-up. For each (and every) rule of this system, I like to ask myself 'Why?', and I'm not kidding. You can look at my profile and see me question the design goals and player perception of every. single. rule. in this edition.

So, what is your opinion? Does encumbrance increase immersion, grounding the abilities of your PCs by giving them clear rules on how the world works and increasing the depth of the simulation, or does it simply address the problem of "No you can't carry that giant gold statue to sell it later"

This goes for all variant rules and houserules. Why do you, or do not, include encumbrance in your games?

[Resileaf]

Encumbrance is often annoying to use because it's a lot of constantly calculating what you're carrying. I generally don't bother counting it, unless the characters are about to carry a lot of stuff that would obviously be very heavy (loot, firewood, food for a long trip, etc).

That is also why bottomless bags are a godsend! :smallbiggrin:

[Tanarii]

or does it simply address the problem of "No you can't carry that giant gold statue to sell it later"
That's why I use Variant encumberance. And they've watered it down so much it's barely useful for that any more. As much as it pains me to say it, super-restrictive slot-based inventory systems do it far better.

Encumbrance is useless for immersion purposes. Always has been, even AD&Ds bulk rules didn't help much. I've yet to see an RPG which handled carrying capacity in a way that worked well for immersion. It's either ridiculously restrictive (any decent slot-based system, or Classic D&D version) or insanely permissive (pretty much all others ones based off "weight", including later editions of D&D).

[stoutstien]

That's why I use Variant encumberance. And they've watered it down so much it's barely useful for that any more. As much as it pains me to say it, super-restrictive slot-based inventory systems do it far better.

Encumbrance is useless for immersion purposes. Always has been, even AD&Ds bulk rules didn't help much. I've yet to see an RPG which handled carrying capacity in a way that worked well for immersion. It's either ridiculously restrictive (any decent slot-based system, or Classic D&D version) or insanely permissive (pretty much all others ones based off "weight", including later editions of D&D).

I agree. I also use a slot based inventory system. It's gamey but most of the given weights of items are so inconsistent it works better.
I do add extra slots with higher strength.

[Willie the Duck]

In low-level TSR-era D&D (with GP=XP, and before bags of holding or thousands upon thousands of coins as treasure become the norm for your character), encumbrance is/was a nifty little mini-game or challenge, requiring you to make hard choices ("Do I bring all the extraneous gear I might need into the dungeon, knowing that I'll probably have to ditch it somewhere down there if we do find the treasure?", "do I splurge on banded mail instead of splint, because the lessoned weight is important to me?", etc.). You'll note, though, that even in that gameplay style it gets ditched at the level where bags of holding become common or hiring porters to carry your gear is no longer a significant expense.

[Sigreid]

It's used for that moment when you need to say dude, your below average str fighter cant perform normally with that 200lb pack and great sword and longsword and axe and greatax and crossbow...

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I'm debating with my self whether to include encumbrance rules in my traditional session 0 explanation line-up. For each (and every) rule of this system, I like to ask myself 'Why?', and I'm not kidding. You can look at my profile and see me question the design goals and player perception of every. single. rule. in this edition.

So, what is your opinion? Does encumbrance increase immersion, grounding the abilities of your PCs by giving them clear rules on how the world works and increasing the depth of the simulation, or does it simply address the problem of "No you can't carry that giant gold statue to sell it later"

This goes for all variant rules and houserules. Why do you, or do not, include encumbrance in your games?


I'm pretty easy on it as a DM but let my rules lawyer player help others out.

Without encumbrance bags of holding have no purpose in life.

Also I believe not using encumbrance BREAKS immersion. Nothing like carrying 72 sets of plate mail back into town to sell off to the merchant in a town who IRL would have enough cash to buy two and then sell the rest on consignment.

If the players have a cart, there is a possible plot hook when it gets stolen or a refugee hides in it.

Don't be a jerk about it, but at some point say, hey, Bob will help you carry that fourteenth shield you're fixing to pawn, this is probably a bit much to carry.

[Willie the Duck]

I agree. I also use a slot based inventory system.

Don't be a jerk about it, but at some point say, hey, Bob will help you carry that fourteenth shield you're fixing to pawn, this is probably a bit much to carry.

Honestly, it is the bean-counting aspect that people generally dislike. When, as a DM, I've enforced the basic concept of encumbrance, players get behind it. Mind you, no one likes requirements and vulnerabilities* when they are added (particularly if it's a strict downgrade from the previous norm), but if it is considered normative, people tend to like having to buy horses and carts and hire porters and guards to guard the horses and carts and porters topside while they are down in the dungeon and think about and manage those things.
*And I think everyone had at least one DM, growing up, who could only make things like mounts or hirelings (or spouse or pet or getting a ship or castle or...) into a vulnerability they would then use to mess with the PCs.

[Tanarii]

It basically comes down to, is your RPG trying to be a tactical wargame played with a small group of PCs, or a single PC heroic adventure story?

Or is it trying to be both at the same time? Because so few people are willing to play the former in the first place. And so many come into them from having watched TV or read books focused around solo or a small group of protagonists. Any RPGs that managed to survive the early days of the hobby have had to adapt the original concept because of that, and we have so many bastardized rule sets as a result that both sets of people tend to hate it, or have come to accept them as normal.

Encumbrance is just one of those things that you have to decide first what kind of game you're trying to run, how willing your players are to play that kind of game, and if you're going tweak the rules the way you want them as a result (which includes using the variant rule, or totally ignoring them), or just accept the poor compromise.

[Cybren]

What is immersion, why is it desirable, and how does encumbrance interact with it? The OP just assumes that encumbrance must have something to do with "immersion", whatever that is.

[Tanarii]

What is immersion, why is it desirable, and how does encumbrance interact with it? The OP just assumes that encumbrance must have something to do with "immersion", whatever that is.
Immersion is a term measuring how much time you've spent in online RPG forums picking up meaningless or vaguely defined terms. :smallamused:

[Grod_The_Giant]

As much as it pains me to say it, super-restrictive slot-based inventory systems do it far better.
I tend to agree. The purpose of any sort of encumbrance system is to make you think about what you're carrying with you-- and, with a good slot based system, where. Tracking weight is not a good way of doing that. It's both too fidgety ("okay, I use two healing potions and pocket the orc's sword, that's...minus 1/2, plus 2 and 1/2...") and somehow not granular enough at the same time ("I know you can carry a hundred pounds, but how exactly are you toting those six polearms around in a dungeon?"). Slot- based systems can easily be too harsh, but they're both simpler and better at making you think about what you're carrying.

For most games, rule-of-reasonableness is plenty. If I do use an encumbrance system, I prefer a blend of styles-- a backpack or other external carrier (which can hold a reasonably large amount of crap but slows you down and can't be accessed quickly) and a set of slots (which have to be explicitly linked to containers etc on your person, and are restrictive but can easily be reached and don't hamper your movements).

[CNagy]

I don't strictly enforce encumbrance; it's more of a tool to keep things from getting absurd (which, for what it's worth, can break immersion.) I used to think encumbrance was a useless thing to keep track of, then I had a player announce that he was going to outfit the handful of 1st level fighters that the party had command of (preparing for an orc/goblin raid on a town) with the full plate armors and greatswords that he somehow had on him in his backpack of holding-normal-volume.

[n00b]

It does neither. It makes the game more cumbersome. Just plain common sense works best here.

[Callak_Remier]

As long as the group puts in a minimal amount of effort to figure out logistics, you should hand wave it.

For example in my current group we have a retired human fighter driving a cart all over the country side for us.

I cast sending spells to notify him of landmarks and the location of our stashed loot.

Dm handwaved a bunch of stuff because we took the time to atleast plan it out. Even if a Mithral golem leg statistically could not be hauled out of a hole. Due to weight alone.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

That, more or less, is what my group does. They usually come up with some sort of logistics plan that includes access to a vehicle or cargo carrier. That cargo carrier gets its own semi-character-sheet. The player keeps on their sheet the most basic equipment and necessities (god damn you, ToA bug spray). All the other stuff - rope, 10' poles, whatever - that stuff gets listed on the cargo carrier and taken off when needed. I'm lucky in that they're not principle-of-maximum-paranoia players wanting to carry redundant ladders, poles and stuff into dungeons.

This is basically what we arrived at after deciding that survival and realist mechanics were fun for a session but not a campaign.

[ad_hoc]

It does neither. It makes the game more cumbersome. Just plain common sense works best here.

Totally agree with the latter 2 sentences.

It's just not worth it for the extra work for me. It detracts from things we'd rather be focused on.

[n00b]

It does neither. It makes the game more cumbersome. Just plain common sense works best here.

I'm going to backtrack on this a little bit to add this...

If it works for your group to track these things then great, go for it. We have 1 member of our team that tracks every arrow and day of rations, even though the DM doesn't. He enjoys it and it doesn't detract from the game so we go along. Both can coexist to an extent. However works best for each individual group really.

[BW022]

Pros
* It helps balance strength vs. dexterity. Without it, I find lots of characters take the 8 strength, yet still parade around in medium armor or carry tons of equipment.
* It makes mounts and pack animals useful when adventuring.
* It gives high strength characters the ability to shine. The equipment guy/gal is pretty useful at low levels.
* It helps force thinking about treasure. "Who is carrying that 1,500 gold pieces?"
* I can make travel, food, rations, light sources, etc. part of the campaign and give others a chance to shine because they can forage, hunt, or create water using spells for example.

Cons
* It pretty much requires a spreadsheet -- or automated character tool.
* Even with a tablet at the tablet and a good digital character tool -- you really can't manage this in real time. You grab some torches, you use a potion, you get 50gp and a few potions, etc. Or you can't take your mule up the ladder, so you have to real-time manage switching equipment back and forth, etc.
* It leads to edge tactics, such as taking a 20' movement rate and then dropping your pack in battle.
* It leads to a lot of time spent exchanging valuables to reduce weight.
* It leads to extra tracking of pact animals and issues this brings up should they be killed.
* Players can get hung up on weights of objects which aren't in the PHB or their sheet system.

I tend to go for a middle approach.
1. Let players calculate your loads after the session and how much extra they can carry -- either if the sheet auto-calculates it or rough count manually entered.
2. During play we go with whatever you have on your sheet for anything of minor weight -- we aren't tracking a few gold, potions used, potions found, etc.
3. If you find something clearly over your "extra" amount, then you drop to your 20' movement -- or find someone else to carry it.

[Bjarkmundur]

What are the most common items carried that have enough of an impact on the game to be worth keeping track of?


Potions & Scrolls
1H weapons
2H weapons
Armor & Shields (medium/heavy/light)
Coins
Torches (if light matters in your game)


Isn't everything else (bedrolls, ammo, tools) just handwave-able?

[Tetrasodium]

I'm debating with my self whether to include encumbrance rules in my traditional session 0 explanation line-up. For each (and every) rule of this system, I like to ask myself 'Why?', and I'm not kidding. You can look at my profile and see me question the design goals and player perception of every. single. rule. in this edition.

So, what is your opinion? Does encumbrance increase immersion, grounding the abilities of your PCs by giving them clear rules on how the world works and increasing the depth of the simulation, or does it simply address the problem of "No you can't carry that giant gold statue to sell it later"

This goes for all variant rules and houserules. Why do you, or do not, include encumbrance in your games?


IME encumbrance is not worth the ink or paper it's printed on. overall it has no meaningful effect on anyone but the 8-2(6)str kobold fighter. I have however had great results with the slot based inventory in darker dungeons (https://giffyglyph.com/darkerdungeons/index.html) since it forces meaningful choices that players can feel good about their choices instead of just annoyed because they megadumped strength. To get my players on board, I told them that once everyone was using slot based inventory for all of their stuff that the armor expertise, improved potions (2hd+2), potion flasks, & a few other things would kick in. They didn't even blink when I started regularly dropping semimagic equipment & turned on the equipment decay in there & have commented about how nice certain things are over the last few months :D.

[Tanarii]

* It helps force thinking about treasure. "Who is carrying that 1,500 gold pieces?"
This is the primary reason why I care about it.

[Tetrasodium]

This is the primary reason why I care about it.
50 gp is 1 pound, 1500 gp is 30 pounds , phb157