3.5 One 9th level spell for a non caster

[Trandir]

Well the item was created and thanks to everyone who helped.


My DM allowed me something no DM should ever do, custom magic items with no restriciton and a lot of gold together.

The budget is 420k so a 9th level spells with CL 20 in an item with command word would leave 90k to toy with.
The vault of the caster's stinky cheese has been opened.
A single magic item witha 9th level spell at-will could rival entire classes in terms of utility, power, versatility ecc...
This rogue now will get more power than entire classes in the form of a magic item.

Q: What would the playground get?
A: Continuous: Guidance of the avatar, Divine insight with CL 10 (for a nice permanent +35 on all skills at all time), and ____________ at-will.

Now most agree that shapechange is the best option and it trurly is but I'd like to take another spell (it's sad to have such an item with a master of many forms in the party), also today is the last day do build this item.

The options so far ( the xp rules on creating magic items makes gate, wish and miracle too expensive to be selected):

Time stop, a noncaster get very little out of this but this rogue has white raven tactics so highly abusable even for me.

Limited wish, the xp cost make this option cost at least 310.000 gp (at CL 13) or as much as 402.000 gp (at CL 20). But is by far the most utility out of any spell I have foubd so far.

Undermaster, a taster of the geomancy power, best for building or demolishing pretty much anything

Shades, 80% or full power of all 8th level or less summoning or creation conjuring spells. More powerfull than limited wish but a little less flexible, infinite shadow monsters is cool tho.

Polymorph any object, abusable wonderfull little spell this is a lot of utility if used as intended or cheese if used by you. Also since PaO is 8th level and gets no benefit from a CL higher than 15 this cost just 216.000 gp

This is the last day of this thread can you halp me decide?

Edit this was the "original" OP but now the premise has changed slightly. I wonder if a new thread would be more appropriate.

I did some swapping of enchantment and saved a bounch of gold by taking out custom items for skill competence bonus and putting a continuous guidance of the avatar on the armor (still saved a LOOOOOOOOOOT of gold) this allows the huge jump of more than doubling the budget.
I posted a thread about magic items a while ago and I still got about 190k worth of credit left to get something so why not take a command word item. With the DMG rules on custom items I can get up to 7th level spell with CL 15.

Well what would the playground get?



This thread helped me to choose a single item of "unlimited power" and then it got stolen. Maybe you will be luckyer

[StevenC21]

Is this at will? 1/day?

Cast as Su or Sp?

What's your current build?

We need to know more.

[Trandir]

Is this at will? 1/day?

Cast as Su or Sp?

What's your current build?

We need to know more.

A magic item requires command word to activate has limitless charges, so at-will, and saying the word is a standard action. I guess a magic item is Sp.
This build is a non combat oriented rogue with no spellcasting ability of his own (UMD is high enough to get everything to work 95% of the time tho).

[StevenC21]

At Will Greater Teleport is cool. Really cool.

[Feantar]

Extended Irresistible Dance is fun. Depending on whether you are planehopping or just in the prime, you might prefer Master Earth to Greater Teleport. It is mostly unblockable. If you want to get one spell for many, Greater Shadow Conjuration is good, as well as Eye of the Beholder (BoVD). Also, for a rogue, Extended Ethereal Jaunt might be really useful (it's a level 6 Jester spell, so you can use extend). And, of course, and only because you are a rogue, you can just buy 2 command word items. One of guidance of the avatar (CL 3, 10800 gp) and one of Glibness (CL 5, 27000 gp) and just convince people that you just cast whatever spell you feel like (Example: The rogue enters the dragon's lair, turns to the dragon and says "I am just a dream, go back to sleep"). No one is going to let you do the last one, but I just had to suggest it.

[Particle_Man]

If it was Limited Wish would you still have to pay the 300 xp cost per use? If not, that would be my choice. Otherwise, Shadow Conjuration, Greater has 60% reality and quite a lot of versatility.

[Particle_Man]

Are psionics on the table? Fate of One is a nice 1/rd reroll ability. Mind Blank is nice. Ectoplasmic cocoon keeps your enemies wrapped up. Fission is interesting.

[Mato]

Q: What 7th level spell trigger item would a non-caster consider useful?
A: Planar bubble, might as well get ten or more ranged actions per round to kill your opponents.

[ericgrau]

I posted a thread about magic items a while ago and I still got about 190k worth of credit left to get something so why not take a command word item. With the DMG rules on custom items I can get up to 7th level spell with CL 15.

Well what would the playground get?

https://understandingfamilies.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Barbosa-Guidelines-not-rules.jpg

And one of the ways to abuse the guidelines which DMs shouldn't always allow is at-will items. Because some lead to NI shenanigans. But some are awesome and fair, like the aforementioned at-will greater teleport. Basically almost anything that's not stack-able by spamming it 1,000 times a day shouldn't be broken and IMO the DM should allow it. Another way to avoid broken-ness is to simply get an X/day item instead of at-will. Usually 3 to 5 a day is all you need for anything that's not broken anyway. And this is all assuming the spell itself isn't broken; but such a problem would be related to the spell not the item. The correct price of a magic item is the price that makes it of similar power to similarly priced magic items. The price that makes buying it a decision that requires some thought. The guidelines help with that but don't always determine it.

Anyway I'll provide something a little more useful: Reverse gravity. It's great no save (usually), no SR battle-field control that auto-negates a large portion of enemies when outdoors or with a high ceiling, and great utility too. Plus it has style points to give fun flavor in different situations.

[Trandir]

Q: What 7th level spell trigger item would a non-caster consider useful?
A: Planar bubble, might as well get ten or more ranged actions per round to kill your opponents.

You are probably thinking about the planar shepherd planar bubble. The spell version emulates the conditions of the target's native plane in my case the material one so it changes nothing





If it was Limited Wish would you still have to pay the 300 xp cost per use? If not, that would be my choice. Otherwise, Shadow Conjuration, Greater has 60% reality and quite a lot of versatility.

DMG states:
"Spell has XP cost Add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge" and "If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges"
So limited wish would cost 163800 gp for the spell plus 150000 gp for the exp, so it's way above budged.

It would be in budget by making limiting the limited wish to 3 charges per day since:

"Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)" and "If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges."
Doing this saves about 140000 gp




https://understandingfamilies.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Barbosa-Guidelines-not-rules.jpg

And one of the ways to abuse the guidelines which DMs shouldn't always allow is at-will items.

Reverse gravity.

Well the DM sayed I could ask an arteficer to build me anithing and at will items are something so his fault here (weird thing crafting an item with 5 charges per day cost as much as an at will one)

Now I am immagining my rogue that walks on the ceiling.
Just to know this spell is terrible for combat right? Anything that can fly or levitate is immune and most things at high level probably can do it. OoC it's pretty funny you can lift boats or create reverse water falls

[ericgrau]

At-will isn't always broken. Usually it isn't. Your DM can allow it and still disallow the small portion of broken stuff. Just be nice and don't pick the straight up gouda in the first place.

[Mato]

You are probably thinking about the planar shepherd planar bubble. The spell version emulates the conditions of the target's native plane in my case the material one so it changes nothingPlanar bubble isn't a personal spell, it's a touch spell, which is also why it's more powerful.

You could cast it on an animated object built in the dal quor for the time dilation effect. You could even assemble several objects from various planes like keys on a keyring allowing you to select a different target each time you cast the spell.

[Trandir]

At-will isn't always broken. Usually it isn't. Your DM can allow it and still disallow the small portion of broken stuff. Just be nice and don't pick the straight up gouda in the first place.

True but I do not want to break the game, neither I want just a fireball.
Greater shadow seems like a good spell to pick but maybe someone has even better ideas.


Planar bubble isn't a personal spell, it's a touch spell, which is also why it's more powerful.

You could cast it on an animated object built in the dal quor for the time dilation effect. You could even assemble several objects from various planes like keys on a keyring allowing you to select a different target each time you cast the spell.

Well that is true. But I am affraid that since it requires a setup and will probably break the game that isn't the spell that I will take.


Nobody proposed polymorph?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Summon Nature’s Ally VII, and say the creator had Ashbound and Greenbound Summoning.

Extended Ray of Light, it’s a no-save blind for 2d4 rounds if it hits.

Split Ray Empowered Ray of Stupidity is 6th, and deals (1d4+1)x1.5 Int damage per hit, two shots. Average is about 10 Int damage, enough to disable most bruisers that aren’t immune to mind-affecting. One hit on an animal will disable it, so you can get two for one action.

Fate of One is an immediate action psionic power that lets you reroll a failed attack, check, or saving throw.

[Zaq]

CL 15? That’s not perfect, but part of me still says you’ll be happy with greater dispel magic. You’re not a caster? Cool, now your opponent isn’t magical either. Or at least is less magical.

[Mato]

Nobody proposed draconic polymorph?Not yet.


CL 15? That’s not perfect, but part of me still says you’ll be happy with greater dispel magic. You’re not a caster? Cool, now your opponent isn’t magical either. Or at least is less magical.
Selective antimagic field & exclude your self.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The psychoactive skin of proteus's at-will metamorphosis is one of the most powerful, most versatile items in the entire game, up to and including greater artifacts. Just boost the ML a bit (preferably including the free +1 for using the Words of Creation feat), and you might be surprised at how much you can rely on it in lieu of class features and other items. A level 20 commoner with a ML 15 skin of proteus, good Int and Wis scores, and a few cross-class points in Knowledge skills can keep up with pretty much any other non-T1 class in the game, even at high-middling optimization levels.

At-will shapeshifting is crazy-good.

There's a reason why shapechange is possibly the strongest non-epic spell in the whole game.

[edit] Feel free to alter it to being Quickened metamorphosis, if you think you can afford it.

[bean illus]

CL 15? That’s not perfect, but part of me still says you’ll be happy with greater dispel magic. You’re not a caster? Cool, now your opponent isn’t magical either. Or at least is less magical.

I thought of that too. Bet you could find times to use it.

Limited wish 3x/day sounds worth it. Not quite at will, but everything else in one.

[Trandir]

Just boost the ML a bit (preferably including the free +1 for using the Words of Creation feat), and you might be surprised at how much you can rely on it in lieu of class features and other items

What does ML stands for?



CL 15? That’s not perfect, but part of me still says you’ll be happy with greater dispel magic. You’re not a caster? Cool, now your opponent isn’t magical either. Or at least is less magical.

I sayed CL 15 for a lv 7 spell but if the spell is greater dispell, a level 6 slell, the price lowers a bit (I could even get it to lv 5 a powerful wizard can get spells from other lists).
In the first case the limit is CL 18 (194400 gp), in the second I'd have some money left even with CL 20 (180000 gp).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What does ML stands for?Manifester level. It's the psionic equivalent of caster level, just like how psions manifest powers instead of casting spells.

[Trandir]

Ok the budget has changed now so even shapechange, time stop, meteor swarm, summon monster IX etc... are on the table.
This unfortunately means that nearly all the help I have received so far is outclassed by what a single at-will 9th level spell can provide

[GrayDeath]

if you cana ctually get a 9th its Shapechange, no contest.
No other Spell offers as much versatility and Power without serious cheese.

[Biggus]

Well I could order to craft one at full 25 CL by using all the gold but doing so would mean to basically spit in the face of our master of many forms also since there is this wonderful line in the spell description "You can become just about anything you are familiar with" I probably would not get access to the good forms since this PC never encountered any intresting creature.
In this case shapechange isn't THE most usefull.

Ask your DM how they interpret "just about anything you are familiar with". As the spell itself doesn't specify, while some DMs only allow creatures you've actually encountered in-game, others require Knowledge checks, and some allow you to change into anything you want.

[Trandir]

Ask your DM how they interpret "just about anything you are familiar with". As the spell itself doesn't specify, while some DMs only allow creatures you've actually encountered in-game, others require Knowledge checks, and some allow you to change into anything you want.

I just remembered one little thing. My DM is an idiot and we play in a pre errata environment. 50HD shapechange screw everything else.
We encountered a Pathfinder ancient white dragon that alone is worth the spell.
And one can always use it in non cheese ways

[pabelfly]

At will time stop is my vote.

[Biggus]

50HD shapechange screw everything else.


50HD? Holy moly, yeah I'd say that settles it...

[Eldariel]

Shapechange singlehandedly replicates a number of other 9th level spells while also being the most useful ability for a non-caster. Su list (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=3689.0) and Shapechange Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517934-The-3-5-Shapechange-Handbook) are good resources for how to use it. Wish could be better otherwise, but it just so happens Shapechange into Zodar lets you cast Wish as a Su ability anyways so it doesn't really matter.

[Trandir]

50HD? Holy moly, yeah I'd say that settles it...

Yep


Shapechange singlehandedly replicates a number of other 9th level spells while also being the most useful ability for a non-caster. Su list (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=3689.0) and Shapechange Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517934-The-3-5-Shapechange-Handbook) are good resources for how to use it. Wish could be better otherwise, but it just so happens Shapechange into Zodar lets you cast Wish as a Su ability anyways so it doesn't really matter.

Thanks for the help and I considered Wish but there is a rule that increases the cost of a magic item if the spell it will cast has exp cost. 5x(exp cost)x(number of charges, or 50 if it has any kind of daily limit or 100 if it has no limitation).

An item with command word that cast Wish would cost 2.775.400 gp in the market so it's a bit off budget.

[Efrate]

Zodars get wish 1x/year as a su.
At will shapechange into one and you have infinite cost free wishes.

t1 shapechange into a zodar.
t2 wish.
t3 shapechange into something else (or zodar form again)
t4 wish (or back into zodar)
t5 wish or loop again

[Particle_Man]

Just be careful not to abuse shapechange too much!

[Quertus]

Zodars get wish 1x/year as a su.
At will shapechange into one and you have infinite cost free wishes.

t1 shapechange into a zodar.
t2 wish.
t3 shapechange into something else (or zodar form again)
t4 wish (or back into zodar)
t5 wish or loop again

I thought that that was officially ruled / errata'd to not work. That you had to wait for the form's ability to refresh before using it again in the same form, or maybe even in any form with a similar ability.

[Trandir]

Just be careful not to abuse shapechange too much!

There are some options:
Shapechange just for the healing and only on monsters encountered to avoid cheese
Shades to get quite the array of utility
Summon "something" for infinite meatshields/utility tools
Undermaster to become a geomancer
Srinshee’s spell shift to make everyone enjoy the life of a non caster.

(time stop is kind of too cheesy to have it at-will and with white raven tactics)

Probably shapechange is better but those are decent choices as well

[ericgrau]

Shapechange is a long duration already so while often good in general it's not necessarily the best use of an at-will ability. Yes you can do some totally broken things with it, but like you said at-will time stop is even more broken without even trying to be cheesy. Maybe at-will dominate monster and build yourself an army? Still broken, probably also more broken than shapechange. It's kinda hard not to break an at-will 9th level spell.

Umm, IMO talk to the DM and see where this is going. Find out what a reasonable limit is. If there is no limit, then this game may turn out to be a bit boring.

[Eldariel]

Shapechange is a long duration already so while often good in general it's not necessarily the best use of an at-will ability. Yes you can do some totally broken things with it, but like you said at-will time stop is even more broken without even trying to be cheesy. Maybe at-will dominate monster and build yourself an army? Still broken, probably also more broken than shapechange. It's kinda hard not to break an at-will 9th level spell.

Umm, IMO talk to the DM and see where this is going. Find out what a reasonable limit is. If there is no limit, then this game may turn out to be a bit boring.

I dunno, At-Will Shapechange gives you At-Will Dominate Monster through e.g. Aboleth so it's not like you lose out there. Seriously, Shapechange is so stupidly stupid that it basically does everything (well, not At-Will Time Stop but you need something worthwhile to do in Time Stop, which a non-caster will not have without something like Shapechange).

[animewatcha]

Yep



Thanks for the help and I considered Wish but there is a rule that increases the cost of a magic item if the spell it will cast has exp cost. 5x(exp cost)x(number of charges, or 50 if it has any kind of daily limit or 100 if it has no limitation).

An item with command word that cast Wish would cost 2.775.400 gp in the market so it's a bit off budget.

A little bit of a breakdown.

Shapechange into planar shepherd who is attuned to dal quor ( 10 rounds per one normal ).
Planar bubble for time-shenanigans.
'Different zohars' for wish shenanigans.
Change back to planar shepherd to reset planar bubble.
If shapechange is 'in danger of being round out', you shapechange into someone/someone that can use it / have it prepared already.
All this can be done in one round and you get multiple Wishes on demand.

-edit- Shapechange for wish to use an out of sanctum area ( thus reducing spell level ) sanctum spell time stop.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A little bit of a breakdown.

Shapechange into planar shepherd who is attuned to dal quor ( 10 rounds per one normal ).
Planar bubble for time-shenanigans.
'Different zohars' for wish shenanigans.
Change back to planar shepherd to reset planar bubble.
If shapechange is 'in danger of being round out', you shapechange into someone/someone that can use it / have it prepared already.
All this can be done in one round and you get multiple Wishes on demand.

-edit- Shapechange for wish to use an out of sanctum area ( thus reducing spell level ) sanctum spell time stop.Planar shepherd is a prestige class, not a creature, so you can't shapechange into one.

You could zodar-wish for a scroll of genesis to create your own demiplane with 10-to-1 time compression, though, then use that to cast acorn of far travel on an oak tree you plant on your demiplane.

[CIDE]

A little bit of a breakdown.

Shapechange into planar shepherd who is attuned to dal quor ( 10 rounds per one normal ).
Planar bubble for time-shenanigans.
'Different zohars' for wish shenanigans.
Change back to planar shepherd to reset planar bubble.
If shapechange is 'in danger of being round out', you shapechange into someone/someone that can use it / have it prepared already.
All this can be done in one round and you get multiple Wishes on demand.

-edit- Shapechange for wish to use an out of sanctum area ( thus reducing spell level ) sanctum spell time stop.

In addition to what was already said it'd also probably be a unique creation.

[Trandir]

I am happy to use it just to do what basiacally our master of many forms used 15 levels to be able to do.

But wow you can think of some convoluted game breaking loopholes with this spell. Maybe is better to switch to iceberg or meteor swarm and have fun by crushing the world.

[Endarire]

What about shades or shapechange?

[Trandir]

What about shades or shapechange?

I was joking but shapechange even tho is by far the best option it might be a little cheesy so I have some doubt about taking it.
Shades is a great option that requires a little book keeping but provides with enough spells to have some flexibility.

Also I could take infinite limited wish. Less impactfull than a 9th level spell but a loooooooooooot more utility (excluding shapechange) since it would mean to have basically 11 levels in an arcane caster class and 9 in a divine caster class, but with infinite spells per day.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also I could take infinite limited wish. Less impactfull than a 9th level spell but a loooooooooooot more utility (excluding shapechange) since it would mean to have basically 11 levels in an arcane caster class and 9 in a divine caster class, but with infinite spells per day.Would you have to pay the XP cost? More balanced, but that would be far less used as a result. Shades is probably a better idea than limited wish, if you have to spend the XP.

[Trandir]

Would you have to pay the XP cost? More balanced, but that would be far less used as a result. Shades is probably a better idea than limited wish, if you have to spend the XP.

It's a magic item, the XP is payed by adding to the price 5gp × XP cost of the spell× number of charges (in this case 100 since it has no limit). Limited wish with CL 20 would cost 402.000 gp.

Also what about polymorph any object?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also what about polymorph any object?PAO is very, very useful. It can emulate several spells, some of which are incredibly versatile in themselves. It's also insanely abusable. Yeah, it'd be worthwhile, and it can be used in a lot of ways similarly to shapechange, and it's not self-only, so it's got uses even shapechange doesn't. It's useful for offense, defense, mobility, and utility.

Definitely a contender, yeah.

[Maat Mons]

I've always wanted an at-will item of Miracle. You can duplicate any spell of up to 7th level with no XP cost. You're on good terms with your deity, right?

[Efrate]

Gate is also nearly as good as shapechange if you know your monsters. Gate in stuff for pretty much all the same things as shapechange, or heck just gate in solars so you have a full cleric at your back and call to cast whatever you need, plus slas, plus meat shield, plus a nasty force in combat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Gate is also nearly as good as shapechange if you know your monsters. Gate in stuff for pretty much all the same things as shapechange, or heck just gate in solars so you have a full cleric at your back and call to cast whatever you need, plus slas, plus meat shield, plus a nasty force in combat.Yes, but at that point, the gated creatures will overshadow his own character. Significantly. The other spells, far less so.

[NNescio]

Gate is also nearly as good as shapechange if you know your monsters. Gate in stuff for pretty much all the same things as shapechange, or heck just gate in solars so you have a full cleric at your back and call to cast whatever you need, plus slas, plus meat shield, plus a nasty force in combat.

Also the calling function of Gate has an XP cost, which will presumably blow up the cost of the item beyond Thread OP's budget,.

[Trandir]

I've always wanted an at-will item of Miracle. You can duplicate any spell of up to 7th level with no XP cost. You're on good terms with your deity, right?

I am not sure if I can create a magic item that has "some" of the effect of a spell if not the xp cost strays



Gate is also nearly as good as shapechange if you know your monsters. Gate in stuff for pretty much all the same things as shapechange, or heck just gate in solars so you have a full cleric at your back and call to cast whatever you need, plus slas, plus meat shield, plus a nasty force in combat.

Yep but the summon monster is the one that costs XP



Also the calling function of Gate has an XP cost, which will presumably blow up the cost of the item beyond Thread OP's budget,.

Such item would cost 775.400 gp a tid too much for this pc.

Anyway I got to decide today we play and will be my last chance with this item

[NNescio]

I am not sure if I can create a magic item that has "some" of the effect of a spell if not the xp cost strays

DMG/SRD scroll tables sets a precedent for magic items having a certain amount of XP (and variable GP mat cost) budgeted into their cost.

e.g. Scroll of Binding, buy price 8,500 gp (XP up to 2,000), Scroll of Wish, 28,825 gp (mat up to 10,000 gp and up to 5,000 XP), and Scroll of Miracle, 28825 gp, which "assumes powerful request but no expensive material components in excess of 100 gp and no additional XP cost." (so the 5,000 XP cost for a "powerful request" has already been budgeted in.)

[Trandir]

DMG/SRD scroll tables sets a precedent for magic items having a certain amount of XP (and variable GP mat cost) budgeted into their cost.

e.g. Scroll of Binding, buy price 8,500 gp (XP up to 2,000), Scroll of Wish, 28,825 gp (mat up to 10,000 gp and up to 5,000 XP), and Scroll of Miracle, 28825 gp, which "assumes powerful request but no expensive material components in excess of 100 gp and no additional XP cost." (so the 5,000 XP cost for a "powerful request" has already been budgeted in.)

Scrolls pricing is different than the command word item one.

A scroll is priced by this formula: Spell level× CL × 25 gp + 5gp× spell xp cost× charges (1 in this case)
A wish scroll then costs 9×17×25gp + 5000×5 gp = 28825.

A command word item with limitless charges is priced by a similar formula: Spell level× CL× 1800 gp+ 5gp× spell xp cost× charges (unlimited charges count as 100)
Infinite wish cost this much: 9×17×1800 gp + 5000× 100× 5gp= 2.775.400 gp

So I do not see your point, I never sayed that I cannot calculate the cost of an item with a spell with xp cost but that I can't find a rule about magic items with modular xp cost.

Then again I am strongly considering an item of limitless limited wish

[Jack_Simth]

Miracle. Duplicate any spell that doesn't have an XP or material component of 7th level or lower (8th, from the Cleric list). That's a lot of different spells.

[NNescio]

Scrolls pricing is different than the command word item one.

A scroll is priced by this formula: Spell level× CL × 25 gp + 5gp× spell xp cost× charges (1 in this case)
A wish scroll then costs 9×17×25gp + 5000×5 gp = 28825.

A command word item with limitless charges is priced by a similar formula: Spell level× CL× 1800 gp+ 5gp× spell xp cost× charges (unlimited charges count as 100)
Infinite wish cost this much: 9×17×1800 gp + 5000× 100× 5gp= 2.775.400 gp

So I do not see your point, I never sayed that I cannot calculate the cost of an item with a spell with xp cost but that I can't find a rule about magic items with modular xp cost.

The point is that scrolls of spells with variable XP costs are crafted with an 'XP budget' (the maximum amount of XP allowed to be 'paid by' the scroll), which is then factored into the costs for scribing (and market value, by extension). This strongly implies that the caster can vary the amount of XP 'vested' into the scroll to allow for stronger effects to be used (and of course if the spell requires some minimum amount of XP then that has to met otherwise the spell can't be used it all).

Extrapolating from that would also then imply that other magic items (that cast spells with an XP cost) also come with an XP budget (the XP cost per casting of a spell), which is factored into the crafting cost (and then market prices.)

This is further supported by the Creating Magic Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) guidelines, which explicitly provided the Ring of Three Wishes as an example of an item that is priced assuming that each (charge of) Wish costs 5,000XP. (This is the same 'inferred RAW' people use to shut down infinite Ring of Three Wishes wishing for more RoTWs, the justification being that each Wish only comes with 5,000XP to pay for the Wish itself, leaving no more XP for creating magic items.)

Skip Williams also provided an example (see Rules of the Game: Making Magic Items (Part Three) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041221a)) of a custom staff item (i.e. an example of a spell-trigger item) called the staff of remediation. The staff contains the atonement spell, and the staff is priced as though the atonement spell costs 500 XP. Note that Williams within the same section also suggested a variant on the staff without the additional XP costs; the staff would still work as normal except it can no longer provide atonement for a creature "whose guilt was the result of deliberate acts". (because that function of Atonement requires 500XP per cast.)


The atonement spell has a variable XP component. It would be possible to create a staff of remediation without the extra cost for the XP component (see the notes on scrolls in Part Two), but, if so, an atonement effect from the staff could not remedy the effects of misdeeds.

Here we see a developer clearly stating that the optional XP cost (for spells with variable XP costs) need not be paid for when creating staves; the staff merely cannot produce the additional effect of the spell that requires spending the additional XP (otherwise it functions as normal). Additionally, the 'rules' (technically guidelines) are extrapolated from the 'rules' for scrolls.

So, we have examples of pricing for spells with variable XP costs for spell completion, spell trigger and use activated items. This strongly implies that command word items also follow the same 'rules' and can be priced similarly (also especially because of how the developer seemingly taking the guidelines for granted when generalizing from one category of magic items to another, without mentioning any specific rationale for said generalizing). Since the XP cost for Miracle is optional (required only for producing stronger effects or reproducing the effects of spells with XP costs), we can (well "strongly suggested we may") craft a command word item of miracle without the additional XP cost, and price it accordingly. It merely cannot reproduce effects that require the additional XP costs.

(Of course, technically speaking none of the above 'extrapolations' is explicit by RAW, but the guidelines for creating magical items are, technically speaking, "guidelines", and not explicitly allowed as-is anyway for creating magical items carte blanche. Then again trying to create a command word activated item of Miracle this way may incur DM ire, so it might not be recommended if the DM is already lenient with the magic item creation guidelines.)

[Maat Mons]

... How does a Limited Wish item get around the modular cost "issue?"

The XP cost of Limited Wish is "300 XP or more." When you use Limited Wish to duplicate Atonement on a "deliberate act" target, the spell costs 500 XP. When you use it to duplicate Meneralize Warrior on a target with more than one hit die, it costs 250 XP per HD the creature has.

[NNescio]

... How does a Limited Wish item get around the modular cost "issue?"

The XP cost of Limited Wish is "300 XP or more." When you use Limited Wish to duplicate Atonement on a "deliberate act" target, the spell costs 500 XP. When you use it to duplicate Meneralize Warrior on a target with more than one hit die, it costs 250 XP per HD the creature has.

You could pour more XP into it during item creation (which is then factored into the market price). This gives you a bigger budget to work with.

(But yeah... Mineralize Warrior is still not going to be practical.)

[Maat Mons]

What I was getting at is, the OP seems to be favoring Limited Wish over Miracle because Miracle has a variable XP cost. But Limited Wish also has a variable XP cost. So I don't see how they're fundamentally different in that regard.