Help: A more satisfying TWF build

[rmnimoc]

I've recently noticed that in 5e I've never played a character who used two weapons past level 7. I spent a while thinking about why that is and I realized every time a character of mine gets that high they either switch to a ranged or two-handed weapon because once you get extra attack it really feels like the impact of having that second weapon starts dropping pretty fast. At low levels that second weapon seems important, like it's an essential part of your character's build, but as you get extra attack (or extra attacks) that feels less and less like an important part of your character and more like it's just sort of tacked on. The style and Dual Wielder help a bit, but even then it really doesn't really help it feel special.

To help explain my point better, imagine that instead of a second weapon you grabbed a polearm. It's pretty likely you'll grab polearm master at some point and from that point on the polearm is an essential part of your character, letting you do things you just couldn't do without it. Or if you grabbed a longbow and sharpshooter, taking that away would be the same, your character loses essential options they had before. It's the same with a sword and board character too. If you take away a second sword from a TWF build though, what really changes? Sure, you do a little less damage, maybe get -1 to your AC, but ultimately your character and what you're doing with them doesn't change. That always feels incredibly unsatisfying to me.

So, I challenged myself to make a TWF fighter where using the second weapon felt special, like its removal would really change the character and the build. Unfortunately basically every idea I came up fell flat right around the same point. What I came up with is that unless you get two different magical weapons with neat effects (not always guaranteed or even all that likely unless your DM is taking pity on you), TWF will always stop feeling special if you get extra attack. This is obviously a pretty unsatisfying outcome, so I figured I'd see if anyone on here had a solution to the problem.

So, the question: Can you make a build where TWF means more than just a few extra points of damage, where TWF is as important to your character as a little nooblet adventurer all the way up to the end of the road at level 20?

[RingoBongo]

I feel like it needs to be a rogue base to avoid gaining the extra attack feature and still have some martial prowess as it scales. If you get extra attack feature it pretty much makes twf comparitively worse. Not sure what you might add on to rogue to make it stand out... Sorcerer? Idk...

Swashbuckler rogue and sorcerer or warlock sound like they would work okay. Fancy footwork can free up your bonus action attack situationally. That extra bonus attack could help you make at least one sneak attack hit per turn... Maybe shadow blade spell could be one of your 2 weapons...

[Nefariis]

TWF with dual crossbows, Crossbow Expert, and Sharpshooter always seemed fun on paper.

Human Variant Fighter (usually battle master)
level 1 - CE
level 4 - ASI or SS
level 6 - ASI or SS
level 8 - ASI

I would take SS at 4 or 6 depending on party comp.

If someone could give you a regular helping of bless and/or advantage Ill would take it at level 4, otherwise I will take it at 6.

at level 8 you get 3 attacks with +5 dex.

Attack: +5 dex, +3 prof, +2 archery, d4 bless, d8 superiority dice, -5 SS
Damage: d6 + 5 + 10

+12 to hit when you need to hit, but usually at least +7.5
+18.5 per arrow for damage (55.5 for 3) at level 8 is pretty snazzy.


You get to wear plate armor
You take no penalties for shooting in melee
You ignore most cover
You get to shoot 60 feet
You get to ignore reload rules
You get an action surge
You get ASI bumps every 2 levels
At level 11 you get 4 attacks
Take 9 levels of rogue after and get 5d6 extra damage - why? because why not


I apologize if any of my math is off, my books are all the way on the other side of the room - and well - meh.

[Foxhound438]

Rogue is a good option for 2wf in general if you have the guts to get in, and in 5e you don't need to meet as hard of requirements for sneak attack as in older editions. Swashbuckler does pretty well at this in particular, having a feature at level 3 that further relaxes the requirements of SA so that you can almost always have it on a hit, and swinging twice ensures that you land that big damage on most turns.

That said, I've always liked the idea of a paladin dual wielding. Yes, it's probably worse at the top end in terms of raw damage than polearm master since you don't get to add modifier to the bonus action damage or get free reaction attacks, but saving yourself a feat means you can mainline stats harder, or else pick up more utility like Inspiring leader or Lucky. Not to mention being able to be dex primary for the many benefits that brings. You still have the issue of feeling like an extra attack is less important at level 5, but an extra swing in this case means you get an extra chance to crit, so more chances for those extra good smite attacks. It really pays off at level 11 to be dual wielding as well, as an extra damage die per attack is way better with a third attack than with only 2. For the same reason, divine favor used in the first round of a hard-looking fight can pay off for you here as well, as even a d4 added to an off hand attack makes up for the lower damage dice if you get a few rounds with it up. I don't think your oath choice would matter too much here, I'd personally choose one of the oaths that gives misty step but that's just my preference.

[LudicSavant]

Does it have to be a Fighter? You might find more luck with a class that actually doesn't have the Two-Weapon Fighting style, like Rogue or Paladin.

[Theodoxus]

I recently made a tabaxi swashbukler. Started rogue, but went Fighter 1 for the fighting style, because I feel you're losing a lot of potential damage if you're not gaining the off hand modifier. By 4th level (fighter 1/rogue 3), using paired scimitars, I have a +6 initiative (16 Dex and Cha), dealing 1d6+3 on a hit, with nearly any attack granting sneak once a round for an additional 2d6, for a potential of 4d6+6 a round. That's generally better than a fighter at 4th level ;)

Plus, the ability to deny OAs on anyone I attack makes it all the better, allowing me to dance around the battlefield (and Feline Agility is just made for that kind of action (since it's not any kind of action to activate), it allows you to get to your best target, taking swipes at anyone in the way to avoid OAs).

Even going back to fighter at a later point (probably after rogue 9), and picking up an extra attack (or 2, at Fighter 11/Rogue 9) isn't as big of a hindrance, as it's still granting you those free moves past enemies. 4 attacks with one boosted by a 5d6 sneak at 20th level? Not too shabby! Plus ASI's to support a point buy build.

Another option, though slower for everything to come online, is a Sword Bard/Swashbuckler multiclass. Grants the medium armor and fighting style that the fighter dip does, plus brings a ton of utility from all the bard stuff. Does require 3 levels of bard at a minimum, so it's definitely something you want to plan for - but for pure out of combat utility, it's really strong.

I've been having a lot of fun TWFing... sure, it might not be as "one shot, one kill" as a rogue with a sharpshooter build... but it's pretty tasty.

[rmnimoc]

Rogue is a good option for 2wf in general if you have the guts to get in, and in 5e you don't need to meet as hard of requirements for sneak attack as in older editions. Swashbuckler does pretty well at this in particular, having a feature at level 3 that further relaxes the requirements of SA so that you can almost always have it on a hit, and swinging twice ensures that you land that big damage on most turns.

That said, I've always liked the idea of a paladin dual wielding. Yes, it's probably worse at the top end in terms of raw damage than polearm master since you don't get to add modifier to the bonus action damage or get free reaction attacks, but saving yourself a feat means you can mainline stats harder, or else pick up more utility like Inspiring leader or Lucky. Not to mention being able to be dex primary for the many benefits that brings. You still have the issue of feeling like an extra attack is less important at level 5, but an extra swing in this case means you get an extra chance to crit, so more chances for those extra good smite attacks. It really pays off at level 11 to be dual wielding as well, as an extra damage die per attack is way better with a third attack than with only 2. For the same reason, divine favor used in the first round of a hard-looking fight can pay off for you here as well, as even a d4 added to an off hand attack makes up for the lower damage dice if you get a few rounds with it up. I don't think your oath choice would matter too much here, I'd personally choose one of the oaths that gives misty step but that's just my preference.

It's not that it's too weak, though it kind of is usually, but more that it never really feels like a core thing. For example, in the paladin thing, what new options does that open up compared to just a single one-handed sword?


Does it have to be a Fighter? You might find more luck with a class that actually doesn't have the Two-Weapon Fighting style, like Rogue or Paladin.

If you've got an idea for how to actually make the dual-wielding an important part of the character instead of something that feels tacked on, then I'd be glad to see it. Every rogue I've seen with two weapons just seems exactly like a rogue with one weapon and slighter higher crit chance and slightly lower miss chance and the paladins tend to remind me of the days when wizards carried crossbows because cantrips were limited (when things get tough all the dual-wielding paladins I've seen sheathed their second sword so they could spend their bonus actions casting the smite spells).


I recently made a tabaxi swashbukler. Started rogue, but went Fighter 1 for the fighting style, because I feel you're losing a lot of potential damage if you're not gaining the off hand modifier. By 4th level (fighter 1/rogue 3), using paired scimitars, I have a +6 initiative (16 Dex and Cha), dealing 1d6+3 on a hit, with nearly any attack granting sneak once a round for an additional 2d6, for a potential of 4d6+6 a round. That's generally better than a fighter at 4th level ;)

Plus, the ability to deny OAs on anyone I attack makes it all the better, allowing me to dance around the battlefield (and Feline Agility is just made for that kind of action (since it's not any kind of action to activate), it allows you to get to your best target, taking swipes at anyone in the way to avoid OAs).

Even going back to fighter at a later point (probably after rogue 9), and picking up an extra attack (or 2, at Fighter 11/Rogue 9) isn't as big of a hindrance, as it's still granting you those free moves past enemies. 4 attacks with one boosted by a 5d6 sneak at 20th level? Not too shabby! Plus ASI's to support a point buy build.

Another option, though slower for everything to come online, is a Sword Bard/Swashbuckler multiclass. Grants the medium armor and fighting style that the fighter dip does, plus brings a ton of utility from all the bard stuff. Does require 3 levels of bard at a minimum, so it's definitely something you want to plan for - but for pure out of combat utility, it's really strong.

I've been having a lot of fun TWFing... sure, it might not be as "one shot, one kill" as a rogue with a sharpshooter build... but it's pretty tasty.

The big problem I've got with these is that the twf bits are just tacked on. If your character lost a sword, they'd still do the exact same thing, just with less damage, a higher chance to miss, and one less person juked per turn.

[iTreeby]

Halfling duel wielding lances from the back of his panther mount?

[LudicSavant]

(when things get tough all the dual-wielding paladins I've seen sheathed their second sword so they could spend their bonus actions casting the smite spells). As opposed to using their bonus actions to get an entire extra Concentration-free smite attack?

Your dual-wielding Paladin friends are a strange bunch.

Either that or they've got a good magic weapon or something. Which is yet another of the reasons that two weapon fighting has badly balanced scaling.

[Bobthewizard]

TWF with dual crossbows, Crossbow Expert, and Sharpshooter always seemed fun on paper.

You get to ignore reload rules


Unfortunately you can't dual wield crossbows. Crossbow expert removes the loading property that limits you to one attack per turn but doesn't eliminate the ammunition property that requires a free hand for ammunition.

On the other hand, crossbow expert allows you to use your hand crossbow for your main attack so your math is still the same, it just uses one hand crossbow for the main attack and the same one for the bonus attack. It just doesn't help the OP and their quest for functional TWF.

I agree with LudicSavant that TWF is better for paladins and rogues to give them an extra chance to smite or sneak attack. I like it on rangers too with hunter's mark. With TWF the extra attack is 2d6+5. Take the feat and you can change to rapiers and get +1AC. Still not as good as pole arm master/GWM, but better average damage than dueling on a ranger or paladin.

[Theodoxus]

The big problem I've got with these is that the twf bits are just tacked on. If your character lost a sword, they'd still do the exact same thing, just with less damage, a higher chance to miss, and one less person juked per turn.

That's going to be true regardless of how you build your TWF. If your concern is being disarmed, I'm afraid you're going to either have to go monk, or tweak UA stuff like the Soul Knife.

[Nagog]

I would go a Levistus Tiefling (UA) Abjuration Wizard 4, Battlemaster Fighter ~4, Swashbuckler Rogue X. You may want to take the Battlemaster first level for heavy armor, then grab all your Wizard levels for an ASI and Shadow Blade, then either finish fighter or pick up Rogue. Perks of this build include:

Arcane Ward+ 2nd level AoA for some reliable and durable Thorns damage
Shadow Blade+Battlemaster Maneuvers: Great damage and good utility to boot for both your physical weapon and the Shadow Blade
Swashbuckler for the reasons already expressed in the thread.

Possible variations:
Swap Wizard for Sorcerer (and taking 1st level of Sorc): Con saves prof. for keeping your Shadow Blade concentration, however this swap loses Arcane Ward and heavy armor
Swap Wizard for Warlock: This loses Arcane Ward, but allows you to upcast both Shadow Blade and AoA fairly well if you take more than 4 levels, and you can pick up some Invocations for increased power, and if you go Hexblade and Pact of the Blade, the build becomes very SAD, but you're also missing out on the lasting AoA granted by Arcane Ward.
Swap Battlemaster for Brute: You lose a lot of the versatility and utility of the Battlemaster maneuvers, however you gain a good chunk of damage. Also this is UA, but so is the Tiefling, so if your DM doesn't allow UA, best to go with the build that utilizes Warlock.

[Meichrob7]

I feel like it needs to be a rogue base to avoid gaining the extra attack feature and still have some martial prowess as it scales. If you get extra attack feature it pretty much makes twf comparitively worse. Not sure what you might add on to rogue to make it stand out... Sorcerer? Idk...

Swashbuckler rogue and sorcerer or warlock sound like they would work okay. Fancy footwork can free up your bonus action attack situationally. That extra bonus attack could help you make at least one sneak attack hit per turn... Maybe shadow blade spell could be one of your 2 weapons...

Sorcerer swashbuckler is actually pretty good because if you ever have advantage on attacks you can take the ready action to hold an attack for someone else’s turn and can quicken one of the weapon attack cantrips as a bonus action to get a sneak attack off on your turn, then when your readied action pops you’ll get another sneak attack because the sneak attack restriction is once per turn not once per round.

You don’t strictly speaking need to have advantage to do this but it means you’re leaving yourself open (by burning your reaction) and investing some of your sorcery points into attacks that have a decent chance to miss.

[Misterwhisper]

The issue with TWF is that every other way of getting a bonus attack is just plain better.

Monk can just use a pair of weapons for their main attacks and bonus action unarmed with stat for free. I like hand axes personally.

Double scimitar is just plain better and takes no investment at all. Also with its feat it is tons better.

Pam gives bonus attack, twf with one weapon, stat to damage, and more bonuses.

CBE lets you essentially TWF with one weapon, from ranged, gives the stat for free, and lets you do it in melee too with no penalty.

[Damon_Tor]

Net build.

First of all, establish whether your DM's interpretation of the second paragraph of the dual wielding rules allows ranged weapons with the thrown property. From there you'll need the Dual Wielder feat which allows non-light weapons.

Being able to throw a net using your bonus action helps offset the action economy drawbacks of it. But then again you're relying on a questionable interpretation of the rules for this.

[Nagog]

Net build.

First of all, establish whether your DM's interpretation of the second paragraph of the dual wielding rules allows ranged weapons with the thrown property. From there you'll need the Dual Wielder feat which allows non-light weapons.

Being able to throw a net using your bonus action helps offset the action economy drawbacks of it. But then again you're relying on a questionable interpretation of the rules for this.

That and you'll need someone in the party with access to Mending with how easily nets are destroyed, or just an ample supply of nets.

Actually, interesting question: Can a BladeLock create a net as their Pact Weapon? I have no idea how useful a +1 net is, buuut...

[Amechra]

Here's a few crazy ideas:

1) Dual-wield as a Kensei with a quick dip in Fighter (or Ranger, but eh). At lower levels, an off-hand weapon attack is going to be stronger than an unarmed strike, and Dual Wielder stacks reasonably well with Agile Parry (you'll have a total of +3 to your AC).

Flurry of Blows will beat out your damage, though, which is an issue.

2) Alternatively, play a Hexblade. If you go V. Human and pick up Dual Wielder, you will beat out Eldritch Blast users damage-wise at levels 1-10, and 12-16 (if you took Lifedrinker like a smart cookie). This is without the Fighting Style (which you can pick up if you really want to).

3) On the Warlock front, you can pick up Shadow Blade and use it as your off-hand weapon. That sweet Xd8 off-hand weapon actually ends up being comparable to a Hex-using Eldritch Blast build in terms of getting things killed (go V.Human with Dual Wielder! It is important!). Plus, you get to use a cool shadow sword - what's not to love?

[Bjarkmundur]

Lalliman and Kane0 did a huge math project on this subject and reached the following conclusion. I know you wanted build advice, but since this thread has done a great job of that already I figured I'd offer an alternative solution to your problem:

Base Rules
When you take the attack action you can us a bonus action to make a secondary attack with your off-hand weapon. You do not add your ability modifier to the damage roll of this attack. If you have the Extra Attack Class feature, you secondary attack deals an additional dice of damage.


Fighting Style
You can use non-light one-handed weapons when two weapon-fighting.


Dual-Wielder Feat
You gain the following benefits while wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
- You gain a +1 bonus to AC.
- When a creature within your reach misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make a single melee attack against them.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

That's going to be true regardless of how you build your TWF. If your concern is being disarmed, I'm afraid you're going to either have to go monk, or tweak UA stuff like the Soul Knife.

Or EK bounded weapons.

[KyleG]

Lalliman and Kane0 did a huge math project on this subject and reached the following conclusion. I know you wanted build advice, but since this thread has done a great job of that already I figured I'd offer an alternative solution to your problem:

Base Rules
When you take the attack action you can us a bonus action to make a secondary attack with your off-hand weapon. You do not add your ability modifier to the damage roll of this attack. If you have the Extra Attack Class feature, you secondary attack deals an additional dice of damage.


Fighting Style
You can use non-light one-handed weapons when two weapon-fighting.

Does the extra attack class feature statement apply to thirsting blade? And would the fighting style changed be gimped by saying only 1 of your weapons can be non-light?

[Bjarkmundur]

Does the extra attack class feature statement apply to thirsting blade? And would the fighting style changed be gimped by saying only 1 of your weapons can be non-light?

1. Ask your DM. It's a houserule, so DM has final say, just like with any other rule.
2. I don't think it matters too much. I personally use "You gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with weapon attacks made with light weapons" . Again, it's a houserule, so tweak it to best fit your table.

[Dork_Forge]

Personally, I've never really understood how unpopular TWF is here (and probably other boards), but if you want something more 'interesting' then you can go with dual wielding whips. Take V. Human for the feat, start out in Fighter for the fighitng style. Take Battle Master when you get to 3rd and Mobile at your leisure. Enjoy being a skirmisher keeping out of attack range of any melee enemies, dropping maneuvers to gain extra damage and advantage.

From there you can go Paladin for smites (and the Defense style), Rogue for Sneak or even Blade Singer for AC, movement increase and the general benefits of being a Wizard.

[Amechra]

Base Rules
When you take the attack action you can us a bonus action to make a secondary attack with your off-hand weapon. You do not add your ability modifier to the damage roll of this attack. If you have the Extra Attack Class feature, you secondary attack deals an additional dice of damage.

How is this supposed to work with stuff like a Fighter's extra Extra Attacks? I'm guessing you'd just counted all of them after the first attack as "secondary" attacks. Which actually showcases how nuts Polearm Master is - spending a bonus action to make all of your rapier attacks deal 2d8+stat still falls behind Polearm Master until 20th level. I actually looked at what this does to expected damage per turn, and it beats Polearm Master + GWF from 11th level onwards. It also really nerfs it at lower levels.


Fighting Style
You can use non-light one-handed weapons when two weapon-fighting.

Dual-Wielder Feat
You gain the following benefits while wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
- You gain a +1 bonus to AC.
- When a creature within your reach misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make a single melee attack against them.

The issue I have with this is that it seems to peg the damage to what you'd get from someone with Great Weapon Fighting and Polearm Master. Which I'm not sure should be our benchmark for damage...

[Sorinth]

It's important to understand what you are trying to accomplish by going TWF. There are essentially 3 melee styles: Sword & Board, TWF, 2-Handed, and the intention is that 2-Handed deals the most damage and has the lowest AC, while Sword & Board has the highest AC but the lowest damage, TWF is supposed to be in between.

So if you are going TWF I assume you want a character that blends offence and defence, so taking Defensive Duelist as your first feat might help your character thematically, plus it's a decent use of your reaction and you are likely using finesse weapons anyways.

If you are looking for a homebrew rule to differentiate TWF I would go with
- When wielding a weapon in each hand you can take a BA to gain +1 AC until the start of your next turn

I would probably also change Dual Wielder so that the +1AC isn't static and is instead linked to this BA. So normally you choose to get +1 AC or an extra attack, and with the feat you get +2 AC or an attack. This allows the TWF to switch between offence and defence every round.

You can also consider removing the trigger mechanism for TWF and basically allow the BA attack no matter what action is taken. This opens up things like Action:Dodge + BA:Attack where you are taking a defensive stance but can still attack. Which again fits in with the theme that a TWF blends offence and defence.


By RAW if you want to make an a TWF build that is different/unique then one option is with your first attack use the Shove attack to knock the target prone, then follow up with additional attacks that are now at advantage. Note this is essentially the tactics that people wished Shield Master gave them. You would probably want a character that is crit-fishing, so a Fighter/Rogue multiclass with Champion fighter for the 19-20 crit range, Expertise in Athetics from Rogue, plus critical hits with SA are always fun.

[Damon_Tor]

I proposed the following as a TWF houserule a while back.

"If you are wielding a light weapon in each hand, whenever you attack with one of those weapons you can also attack with the other. If you do, both attacks are made with disadvantage."

And then the fighting style would read:

"When you use two weapon fighting, only one attack is made with disadvantage. You choose which."

[Kane0]

Change the Dual Wielder feat. Scrap all three bullet points and replace with unique items that are actually interesting and add to your capabilities that aren't mimicked elsewhere.

For example:
- You can use two-weapon fighting as part of the attack action instead of using a bonus action. If you do so you cannot also use your Bonus Action to make a weapon attack on the same turn.
- While wielding a different weapon in each hand, if you make an opportunity attack you can also make an attack using your off hand against the same target

[stoutstien]

I proposed the following as a TWF houserule a while back.

"If you are wielding a light weapon in each hand, whenever you attack with one of those weapons you can also attack with the other. If you do, both attacks are made with disadvantage."

And then the fighting style would read:

"When you use two weapon fighting, only one attack is made with disadvantage. You choose which."

Pretty harsh. The way advantage and disadvantage works this means they would never have advantage.
I guess if the goal is to make sure no player ever tries two weapon fighting it would succeed.

[Aaron Underhand]

Just make the dual weilder feat add extra attacks to the off hand as well...

[stoutstien]

Just make the dual weilder feat add extra attacks to the off hand as well...

Steps on the monk's toes a bit and make twf even stronger in tier one where it's all ready ahead.

[Damon_Tor]

Pretty harsh. The way advantage and disadvantage works this means they would never have advantage.
I guess if the goal is to make sure no player ever tries two weapon fighting it would succeed.

That's a shortsighted way of looking at it. What would you rather have: one attack with advantage or two attacks without? Consider how limited the Samurai's ability to trade advantage for an extra attack is, and yet people seem to enjoy it nonetheless.

[stoutstien]

That's a shortsighted way of looking at it. What would you rather have: one attack with advantage or two attacks without? Consider how limited the Samurai's ability to trade advantage for an extra attack is, and yet people seem to enjoy it nonetheless.

Trading one attack with advantage for two without isn't a bad idea for the twf feat but making all attacks at disadvantage means they will never have advantage.

[CheddarChampion]

How about fighter 1/paladin X, Variant Human for TWF feat, 16/10/14/10/12/14

TWF style and feat at level 1: 2x 1d8+3 damage with 17 AC.

Character level 3: defensive style and the divine favor spell. 2x 1d8+1d4+3 if buffed with 18 AC. When buffed you do the same damage as a greatsword hit (2d6+3), but more times per round.

Level 6: 3x 1d8+4 or 3x 1d8+1d4+4 if buffed.

Level 10: ask your DM if you can use the elemental weapon spell to affect both weapons. 3x 1d8+5 (+1d4).

Level 12: 3x 2d8+5 (+1d4). You're pushing out 42 (+7.5) damage per round before miss chance is taken into account.

Level 18: ask your DM if you can use the holy weapon spell from Xanathar's guide to affect both weapons. If so: 3x 4d8+5 when buffed!

The 12 Wis could be switched to Int or Dex, or reduce it to 10, put a 15 in Cha, and take Actor or Resilient (Cha).
Starting as a half elf with 16/10/14/10/10/16 and taking the TWF feat later is also an option.
I recommend maximizing Cha with the leftover ASI's, but you do you.
Think about when to buff vs when to just attack.

Finally, tell your DM you'd like to make a TWF paladin and ask if you can get the TWF style through paladin level 2, then ask about elemental weapon and holy weapon.

[Damon_Tor]

Trading one attack with advantage for two without isn't a bad idea for the twf feat but making all attacks at disadvantage means they will never have advantage.

A fighter or ranger with the relevant fighting style would make half their attacks without disadvantage. And for everyone else, they can use dual wielding when it makes sense tactically to do so and attack normally otherwise.

[Amechra]

Random suggestion: Half-Orc, purely because of Savage Attacks. It goes really well with a TWF Barbarian.

With two attacks and Reckless Attack, you're looking at a ~18.5% chance of getting at least one crit each round. When you get three attacks, that goes up to ~26.5%. And when your weapons deal 3d8+Str damage on a crit, that's a pretty good chunk of damage. Since a lot of the late-game damage scaling for Barbarians comes from adding dice to crits, having more chances to crit seems like a good plan.



In general, Two-Weapon Fighting should work out well with a crit-fishing build, since an extra attack pushes up your chances of getting at least one crit every round substantially. And hey, you can't use Polearm Master with Elven Accuracy, so there's that.

Champion Fighter 5, No TWF, No AS: A ~19% chance of getting at least one crit each round.
Champion Fighter 5, Yes TWF, No AS: A ~27% chance of getting at least one crit each round.

[Snowbluff]

Honestly, the decision between TWF and PAM is going to be whether or not you get any of the actually good weapons. basically any magical weapon worth a damn is a sword outside of a couple if staves.

Holy Avenger, Sunblade, or Vorpal weapon, TWF is going to look a lot more appealing.

Also, fighter makes the least use of TWF. They get a third attack innately, so having a another one from a bonus action just doesn't look as good.

So I would say Paladin, or a rogue, would be best. Of course, why not both? Rogue's first 7 levels are pretty great. These two are quite complimentary. Whispers Bard is quite nice as well.

[stoutstien]

A fighter or ranger with the relevant fighting style would make half their attacks without disadvantage. And for everyone else, they can use dual wielding when it makes sense tactically to do so and attack normally otherwise.

That's my point. the classes of access to two weapon fighting style also have access to duelist which is still going to come out ahead unless you are hitting targets with AC 5-6 points below average per tier and the classes without the fight style option are barred from advantage. So right off the Barbarian and rogue are going to avoid it like the plague. Both are better just attacking with one weapon unless once again AC are lowered.

But if AC are that low than the GWM/SS users are hitting with impunity so a lot of changes where made with no effect other than making twf even less desirable.

The only exception I can think of is Monks because now they are getting a free extra attack to stack on top of flurry/ martial arts.

[Gignere]

Biggest issue with TWF are needing two fantastic weapons to make it stay competitive at high levels and unless your group are all casters and no one else needs a powerful weapon besides you it’s not going to work.

Also the strongest weapons tend to require attunement that means even if somehow you find a party and DM willing to trick you out with two legendaries or artifacts you will be devoting 2/3rds of your attunement slots to function.

[Damon_Tor]

So right off the Barbarian and rogue are going to avoid it like the plague. Both are better just attacking with one weapon unless once again AC are lowered.

Run the math: the two are remarkably even for most of a character's lifespan.

I just compared two Barbarians at levels 2, 5, 9, 13, 17 and 20. One was a dual wielder (using my revised rule), the other a two-hander. Both took +2 Str at levels 4 and 8, then either Dual Wielder or Polearm Mastery at 12. DPR was calculated vs AC 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 (ie, not low). Rage is always active, Reckless Attack is always used.


Level 2 Barbarian
TWF (2X Shortswords) vs 2H (Greatsword) vs 15 AC.
TWF- 9.7
2H- 10.25

Level 5 Barbarian (Extra Attack)
TWF (2X Shortswords) vs 2H (Greatsword) vs 16 AC.
TWF- 23.5
2H- 23.2

Level 9 Barbarian (Brutal Critical)
TWF (2X Shortswords) vs 2H (Greataxe) vs 17 AC.
TWF- 30.6
2H- 26.7

Level 13 Barbarian (Brutal Critical X2) (Feats: Dual Wielder and PAM)
TWF (2X Longswords) vs 2H (Halberd) vs 18 AC.
TWF- 35.2
2H- 35.9


Level 17 (BC X3)
vs 19 AC
TWF- 37.8
2H- 38.29

Level 20 (Primal Champion)
vs 20 AC
TWF- 41.4
2H- 44.85

Very similar DPR at this AC. You're correct: the lower the AC the more TWF is advantaged vs the 2H. I don't see that as a problem though, not as long as the break-even point is a middling AC like what we were testing against here, and not every Barbarian wants to specialize and devote himself to a single fighting style: a system that encourages a PC to carry both a pair of shortswords and a greataxe and use the shortswords vs lightly armored opponents and the greataxe vs heavily armored opponents is a good system that encourages tactical thinking and creates more varied and interesting gameplay.

[KyleG]

Run the math: the two are remarkably even for most of a character's lifespan.

I just compared two Barbarians at levels 2, 5, 9, 13, 17 and 20. One was a dual wielder (using my revised rule), the other a two-hander. Both took +2 Str at levels 4 and 8, then either Dual Wielder or Polearm Mastery at 12. DPR was calculated vs AC 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 (ie, not low). Rage is always active, Reckless Attack is always used.


Level 2 Barbarian
TWF (2X Shortswords) vs 2H (Greatsword) vs 15 AC.
TWF- 9.7
2H- 10.25

Level 5 Barbarian (Extra Attack)
TWF (2X Shortswords) vs 2H (Greatsword) vs 16 AC.
TWF- 23.5
2H- 23.2

Level 9 Barbarian (Brutal Critical)
TWF (2X Shortswords) vs 2H (Greataxe) vs 17 AC.
TWF- 30.6
2H- 26.7

Level 13 Barbarian (Brutal Critical X2) (Feats: Dual Wielder and PAM)
TWF (2X Longswords) vs 2H (Halberd) vs 18 AC.
TWF- 35.2
2H- 35.9


Level 17 (BC X3)
vs 19 AC
TWF- 37.8
2H- 38.29

Level 20 (Primal Champion)
vs 20 AC
TWF- 41.4
2H- 44.85

Very similar DPR at this AC. You're correct: the lower the AC the more TWF is advantaged vs the 2H. I don't see that as a problem though, not as long as the break-even point is a middling AC like what we were testing against here, and not every Barbarian wants to specialize and devote himself to a single fighting style: a system that encourages a PC to carry both a pair of shortswords and a greataxe and use the shortswords vs lightly armored opponents and the greataxe vs heavily armored opponents is a good system that encourages tactical thinking and creates more varied and interesting gameplay.

Is there somewhere you can plug in stats and assess this with out own builds? For example im a hexblade preferring mixing up my attacking, im not running PAM or GWM (at this stage) and im level 6. So im trying to work out what AC to shift from TWF to a 2H weapon might be, with and without Hex on.

[stoutstien]

Run the math: the two are remarkably even for most of a character's lifespan.

I just compared two Barbarians at levels 2, 5, 9, 13, 17 and 20. One was a dual wielder (using my revised rule), the other a two-hander. Both took +2 Str at levels 4 and 8, then either Dual Wielder or Polearm Mastery at 12. DPR was calculated vs AC 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 (ie, not low). Rage is always active, Reckless Attack is always used.


Level 2 Barbarian
TWF (2X Shortswords) vs 2H (Greatsword) vs 15 AC.
TWF- 9.7
2H- 10.25

Level 5 Barbarian (Extra Attack)
TWF (2X Shortswords) vs 2H (Greatsword) vs 16 AC.
TWF- 23.5
2H- 23.2

Level 9 Barbarian (Brutal Critical)
TWF (2X Shortswords) vs 2H (Greataxe) vs 17 AC.
TWF- 30.6
2H- 26.7

Level 13 Barbarian (Brutal Critical X2) (Feats: Dual Wielder and PAM)
TWF (2X Longswords) vs 2H (Halberd) vs 18 AC.
TWF- 35.2
2H- 35.9


Level 17 (BC X3)
vs 19 AC
TWF- 37.8
2H- 38.29

Level 20 (Primal Champion)
vs 20 AC
TWF- 41.4
2H- 44.85

Very similar DPR at this AC. You're correct: the lower the AC the more TWF is advantaged vs the 2H. I don't see that as a problem though, not as long as the break-even point is a middling AC like what we were testing against here, and not every Barbarian wants to specialize and devote himself to a single fighting style: a system that encourages a PC to carry both a pair of shortswords and a greataxe and use the shortswords vs lightly armored opponents and the greataxe vs heavily armored opponents is a good system that encourages tactical thinking and creates more varied and interesting gameplay.

Are you giving an off hand attack with every attack? I don't follow the math otherwise.

This may be why I'm seeing as being a bad change. I may have misunderstood your change to the rules as a whole.

[DragonBaneDM]

So the way I ended up making TWF fun for myself again was by turning it into a minigame.

I'm playing a Barbarian 5, Rogue+. So I'm essentially Reckless Attacking as often as possible.

The most fun I've had with the character is going through my first two attacks, holding my SA, and then trying for that crit with my offhand weapon.

It's honestly been a BLAST. I feel like my offhand attack is another chance to just EXPLODE. Makes that bonus action feel like it's really going to pay off for me in a way that Cunning Action won't. Sure, I've rolled a 2 and a 3 before and just totally whiffed on my Sneak Attack for a turn, but man oh man does trying for that one last crit feel great when it happens.

I feel like I could accomplish the same fun with a Paladin/Rogue or a Barbarian/Paladin. Honestly anything that incentivizes crit-fishing makes that third attack a whole lot more fun for me.