Warlock vs other slots

[nickl_2000]

Has there ever been a definitive ruling on casting warlock spells with non warlock slots (or the other way around)?

As in, can I cast shield gained from hexblade domain using first level slots gained from being an Arcane trickster? Or do I need to relearn it as an AT?

[JackPhoenix]

If you know a spell, you can cast it using any slot you have available (with few exceptions like racial spells that can be cast limited time per day)

[FabulousFizban]

that is not how multiclass spell slots work. you have a single pool of spell slots, the size of which is determined by whether both classes are full casters or partial casters, and you can cast any spell known from that slot pool.

[Zalabim]

Yes. That exact question is explicitly covered in the multiclassing rules. If you have pact magic and spellcasting, you can use spell slots gained by pact magic to cast spells you know from classes that grant the spellcasting feature, and vice versa.

I feel like such a straightforward "read the book" situation deserves a more interesting answer.

[nickl_2000]

If you know a spell, you can cast it using any slot you have available (with few exceptions like racial spells that can be cast limited time per day)

Thanks.



that is not how multiclass spell slots work. you have a single pool of spell slots, the size of which is determined by whether both classes are full casters or partial casters, and you can cast any spell known from that slot pool.

That is 100% true when it is normal casters. In the case of my question it was a combination of Warlock slots verses non-warlock slots. Since warlock are short rest regain slots they act as their own resource pools for spell slots.



Yes. That exact question is explicitly covered in the multiclassing rules. If you have pact magic and spellcasting, you can use spell slots gained by pact magic to cast spells you know from classes that grant the spellcasting feature, and vice versa.

I feel like such a straightforward "read the book" situation deserves a more interesting answer.

I'm good with a here's what the book says answer. That's about a definitive as you can get :) That being said, I don't have the book memorized and was remembering that it was more controversial than that. Plus, I tend not to multiclass with warlock since my other characters don't have the personality of making a pact with an elder being. So, I haven't looked as deeply into it. A new character I have running around in my mind makes perfect sense for it. So, I appreciate a simple answer.

It could be that I was confusing this was racial spells and/or Magic Initiate spells.

[NNescio]

that is not how multiclass spell slots work. you have a single pool of spell slots, the size of which is determined by whether both classes are full casters or partial casters, and you can cast any spell known from that slot pool.

Warlocks work differently because they have the Pact Magic class feature, not Spellcasting. Their slots don't get pooled together.

But Warlock Pact Magic slots can still be used to cast spells learned/prepared via Spellcasting, and vice versa.


If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.

— PHB-p.164

[Protolisk]

But Warlock Pact Magic slots can still be used to cast spells learned/prepared via Spellcasting, and vice versa.



— PHB-p.164

I am not too well versed in Multiclassing, but I take this to mean that Warlock Pact spell slots therefor can not be used for a Paladin's Divine Smite ability, because that is not actually a spell?

I believe the Eldritch Smite ability for Pact of the Blade also explicitly specifies you can only spend "a warlock spell slot" to fuel its smites. Is this correct?

[Lunali]

I am not too well versed in Multiclassing, but I take this to mean that Warlock Pact spell slots therefor can not be used for a Paladin's Divine Smite ability, because that is not actually a spell?

I believe the Eldritch Smite ability for Pact of the Blade also explicitly specifies you can only spend "a warlock spell slot" to fuel its smites. Is this correct?

Warlock pact spell slots are still spell slots and thus can be used for divine smite. Eldritch smite on the other hand does specify warlock slot and so must be one of your limited pact spell slots.

[Chronos]

The controversial question is whether a spell gained via Magic Initiate can be cast using spell slots. RAW, the answer seems to be "Yes, if you have at least one level in the class you picked for MI, or multiclassed between any two casting classes (even not necessarily the class you picked for MI), but no otherwise". But it's a silly rule that says that multiclassing from bard to ranger makes you better at casting a wizard spell.

[Maelynn]

Has there ever been a definitive ruling on casting warlock spells with non warlock slots (or the other way around)?

As in, can I cast shield gained from hexblade domain using first level slots gained from being an Arcane trickster? Or do I need to relearn it as an AT?

Sure you can - like others said you're allowed to combine spell slots and Pact Magic for casting when multiclassing.

As for your background question regarding the regaining of spell slots after short/long rest, that's another story. While you can pool spell slots and Pact Magic together for casting, recovery is a different and not covered by the multiclassing rules. Pact Magic slots are not spell slots and recover using their own replenishing mechanism.

So: say you have 3 Warlock slots and you cast 5 spells, using 2 from your Arcane Trickster pool - then you only regain 3 slots after a short rest. The remaining 2 stay empty until a long rest. (and no, casting 1 Warlock spell and having another short rest doesn't let you regain 3 slots again - just the one you used. :p)


The controversial question is whether a spell gained via Magic Initiate can be cast using spell slots.

No, it can't. The feat says that you're allowed to cast that 1st-level spell once per long rest at its lowest level, no more. You don't learn the spell, you just gain the ability to use it once a day. Comparable to a racial ability like a Tiefling's Hellish Rebuke, so to say.

The cantrips you do learn, but they don't use spell slots anyway.

[Illven]

So remarkably dumb question. But what's stopping me from going say sorcerer 18/warlock 2, and using my pact magic to cast meteor swarm?

[NNescio]

So remarkably dumb question. But what's stopping me from going say sorcerer 18/warlock 2, and using my pact magic to cast meteor swarm?

...That you only have L1 spell slots from Pact Magic?

[Maelynn]

So remarkably dumb question. But what's stopping me from going say sorcerer 18/warlock 2, and using my pact magic to cast meteor swarm?

The level of the spell. As a Warlock 2, your spell slot level is 1st. That means that you can't cast spells higher than level 1 using Pact Magic. And that goes the other way around as well: as Sorcerer 18 you're free to use the slots from Pact Magic, but they're still only 1st-level slots.

[Illven]

See, I knew there was a reason.

[NNescio]

No, it can't. The feat says that you're allowed to cast that 1st-level spell once per long rest at its lowest level, no more. You don't learn the spell, you just gain the ability to use it once a day. Comparable to a racial ability like a Tiefling's Hellish Rebuke, so to say.

The cantrips you do learn, but they don't use spell slots anyway.

You do learn the spell, even in the original pre-errata version:


In addition, choose one 1st-level spell from that same list. You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again.

(bolded mine.)

Of course, by a strict reading of RAW you can only cast that spell once (per long rest), which gets silly if you take Magic Initiate in your own class (for a spell you already know or have on your class prepare list) and suddenly become unable to cast the spell more than once.

They fixed this in the errata.


PHB Errata (2018) says:

Magic Initiate (p. 168). The second paragraph has been changed to “In addition, choose one 1st-level spell to learn from that same list. Using this feat, you can cast the spell once at its lowest level, and you must finish a long rest before you can cast it in this way again.

(There was also a 2015 errata, but that one was less clear and basically served as clarifying intent instead of amending RAW directly.)

The errata'd version is slightly less clear whether you learn the spell ("to learn from" is less explicit), but since the previous line mentions learning cantrips and this one mentions "in addition" and "to learn from", the most clear-cut way of interpreting this is that "you learn the spell too".

Also, note the additional line "before you can cast it in this way again," which implies that the spell can perhaps be cast in another way.

Now, semantics-wise, it is arguable whether the "learned" spell is counted as a known or prepared spell (from the class list you learned it from), but it is reasonable to presume this is the case. Therefore a creature who takes Magic Initiate in a class it already has levels in, or levels in more than one casting class (even if it's not the class it Magic Initiate'd into) can cast the Magic Initiate L1 spell with any of its spell slots. This aligns it with the RAI interpretation (which, when first clarified, was definitely against RAW. They took a long time and at least two errata before they 'fixed' it, and even then it could have been worded clearer).

Edit: Wait a minute, just noticed a RAW oversight...


PHB-p.164 says:

SPELLCASTING

Your capacity for spellcasting depends partly on your combined levels in all your spellcasting classes and partly on your individual levels in those classes. Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below. If you multiclass but have the Spellcasting feature from only one class, you follow the rules as described in that class.

(...)

If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.

(underlined mine)

So... uh... Warlock doesn't grant the Spellcasting (capitalized) class feature. So technically a multiclassed Warlock/other caster doesn't "have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class", i.e. it has "the Spellcasting feature from only one class". It therefore isn't eligible for using "the rules below", so the Spellcasting/Pact Magic interplay never comes into effect and thus the Warlock/other Caster multiclass cannot use spell slots from Warlock to cast spells from the other caster list, and vice versa. (Now if the Warlock has levels in two other Spellcasting classes, then this issue is fixed since it now qualifies for the multiclass Spellcasting rules.)

This is clearly not intended, but it looks like this is how RAW reads out. Can't seem to find any errata that fixes this either.

(Yes, I know, Specific vs General, but this is the same rule; the Pact Magic-Spellcasting interplay is a subset and only activates when "you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class".)

[ThePolarBear]

It could be that I was confusing this was racial spells and/or Magic Initiate spells.

You might prehaps be remembering the spells "gained" via invocation. Those spells, as written, require a "warlock spell slot".


You do learn the spell, even in the original pre-errata version: [...] Of course, by a strict reading of RAW you can only cast that spell once (per long rest), which gets silly if you take Magic Initiate in your own class (for a spell you already know or have on your class prepare list) and suddenly become unable to cast the spell more than once.

They fixed this in the errata. [...]

The errata'd version is slightly less clear whether you learn the spell ("to learn from" is less explicit), but since the previous line mentions learning cantrips and this one mentions "in addition" and "to learn from", the most clear-cut way of interpreting this is that "you learn the spell too".

Also, note the additional line "before you can cast it in this way again," which implies that the spell can perhaps be cast in another way.

Up until now, i sort of agree.


Now, semantics-wise, it is arguable whether the "learned" spell is counted as a known or prepared spell (from the class list you learned it from), but it is reasonable to presume this is the case.

I do not think it is. Multiple features make an explicit difference between a spell that is simply added to your list (like the ones gained via a Warlock Patron, which must be learned separately and costing one of the "known" spells), spells that are always prepared (like the ones from the Clerics Domain, which also count as cleric spells for you, but are NOT added to the list of cleric spells) or other situation.

Different spellcasting features also ... well... feature different requirements to be able to cast spells using slots, to be able to prepare spells, to be able to know spells. Not all classes know spells at all - clerics do not "know" their spells.

Magic Initiate has an "history" of tweets that ended up in an official Sage Advice Compendium presence for the feat.
Essentially: it depends on the class you are using if you can or not cast the spell learned that way using spell slots. Clerics for example, following their rules for spellcasting, could not do so without preparing the spell anyway and neither could Wizards without first scribing the spell on the spellbook and preparing it. Sorcerers could do so if what you learn is a sorcerer spell, since it would be a "Sorcerer spell that you know".

This however could end up with "strange" intereactions. Coming up with one could end up with DMs making their own ruling based on the situation.


Edit: Wait a minute, just noticed a RAW oversight...

The entire "Pact Magic" section, as you noticed, exists. It overrides the rest, since it only requires to have both the spellcasting feature and the pact magic feature. It's an exception inside an exception. Essentially, the "more than one class with the spellcasting feature" only refers with "below" up to the Pact Magic section.

Edit: and yes, i do not disagree on the fact that it should have had its own big header.

Edit x2: I gave it a bit of a further thought: did you really need a rule that allowed you to use slots that you gain from a particular source to cast spells? I don't think any spellcasting class limited you to particular slots for the purpose of casting spells gained via spellcasting or pact magic at all - at least before the last errata.

[Chronos]

Most classes have language like "you can use your wizard spell slots to cast the wizard spells you have prepared".

[ThePolarBear]

Most classes have language like "you can use your wizard spell slots to cast the wizard spells you have prepared".

Only since the last revision and that's why i made the second edit - it came to my mind the strange change listed in the last errata (which didn't really ringed a bell on why was even necessary as a change in and of itself). Before it was only "You can use your spell slots to cast wizard spells you have prepared", which didn't limit pact magic / spellcasting interaction at all from that point of view.

Edit: Essentially, it's a "new" problem.

[Zalabim]

Only since the last revision and that's why i made the second edit - it came to my mind the strange change listed in the last errata (which didn't really ringed a bell on why was even necessary as a change in and of itself). Before it was only "You can use your spell slots to cast wizard spells you have prepared", which didn't limit pact magic / spellcasting interaction at all from that point of view.

Edit: Essentially, it's a "new" problem.
I don't think there's a real need to say wizard spell slots, but it might make sense to specifically say when a character can cast spells, since that's not a normal ability of humans that everyone is familiar with. So it makes sense for sorcerer spellcasting to include the ability to cast sorcerer spells you know, and ritual caster gives the ability to cast the given category of rituals. And I want to repeat for others that the multiclassing rules for pact magic/spellcasting still don't allow casting spells outside of that allowed by the classes you have.

[ThePolarBear]

I don't think there's a real need to say wizard spell slots, but it might make sense to specifically say when a character can cast spells, since that's not a normal ability of humans that everyone is familiar with. So it makes sense for sorcerer spellcasting to include the ability to cast sorcerer spells you know, and ritual caster gives the ability to cast the given category of rituals. And I want to repeat for others that the multiclassing rules for pact magic/spellcasting still don't allow casting spells outside of that allowed by the classes you have.

Having an old PHB, checking on DnDBeyond, posting before resting doesn't help make a good argument. I messed up in the wordings in my last post.

This still however doesn't mean that the original wording (The [x] table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st levei and higher.) left any problem about casting any spell you had access to (including those coming from a warlock multiclass, and those coming from a Spellcasting class if you were a Warlock) even without the multiclass rules. You still had to obey other restrictions, but where you got the spell from was of no concern for spell slots, while the new wording does raise the problem. (Which was what originally raised the Magic Initiate issue, btw. A Wizard still needed to prepare its spells to cast wizard spells, while a Sorcerer could just cast a wizard spell anyway. The original Advice was along the lines of "the spell is not meant to be cast in any other shape, however letting a character cast it with slots if it is from a class the character has is a fine ruling".)

If the spell slots on the table are to cast [wizard] spells, then a [warlock] spell can't fit there. And if you read the multiclass rules to include also the Pact Magic header requiring multiple Spellcasting classes then you need to have 2 Spellcasting-featured classes and Warlock before mixing and matching slots.