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Deme
2007-10-13, 08:34 AM
OK, I have this evil red dragon I have established as being really, really evil with the intent that he be the main villain.

the problem? my players respond to the second most important villain, an evil cleric of the same goddess as the dragon with his own minions, a LOT more. when I say "a lot," I mean that when I do a cutaway to him, some of my players start making strangling gestures. and stabbing gestures. and gestures that seem to indicte putting a sharp object up his *censored* and pushing it through his colon. One of my players (playing the only character to have actually met the guy yet) has stated many times that her chief goal is to see the cleric in pain.

clearly, despite my best intentions, they are going to feel more satisfied whooping the cleric in a major, climactic, end-of-the-campaign battle. Soo.....how do I arrange it so that the dragon is still an important figure, but no longer the central villain?...I have a few ideas on how it could work...

1) I just have the players expecting a dragon fight to find that the cleric just killed him, further cementing the idea that this is one bad guy (not my favorite) for the CHARACTERS to see.

2) The dragon and the cleric strike a deal to satisfy both their evil wishes, agreeing that the cleric, being the original planner, is in charge. (One I like)

3) the goddess they both serve forces the dragon and his minions to act as bodyguards for the cleric. the dragon is unhappy about this, but agrees because he knows what's in it for him. (another one I like)

4) the dragon tries to steal the cleric's soul(he does that a lot) only to find that the cleric overpowers him, creating some bizzare fusion I'm not sure how to arrange (don't really like this much)

So....does anyone think any of these would work/be convinving? Does anyone have another, better idea? the effective stats of both are very arrangable at the moment...

Anxe
2007-10-13, 08:43 AM
You've pretty much lined those options up in the order that I like em. And yes, the simplest answer is to switch the role of the Cleric and the Dragon without the PCs catching on.

Xefas
2007-10-13, 08:47 AM
Well, according to tvtropes, it's far more cliche to have the dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.TheDragon) be the second-to-last boss, as he is outranked by the more humanoid, weaker, magic-user. So, obviously, you'll have to go with one of those options (2 or 3).

I like three best, myself. I think two is unrealistic for Red Dragon behavior, and three allows for more options on behalf of the players, especially if the deity's way of commanding the dragon to help is to give the cleric a Rebuke Evil Dragons type power. That way, the players might even be able to get the dragon's help if they play their cards right, as he'll be pissed at the situation.

And if they don't, you have the traditional Mook Horde => Badass Dragon => Mysterious Behind the Scenes Magic Guy, lineup.

Lyinginbedmon
2007-10-13, 08:48 AM
Since the players are obviously giving less attention to the dragon, it's more beneficial for them to strike a deal. I'd go with option 3

Quietus
2007-10-13, 08:59 AM
Since the players are obviously giving less attention to the dragon, it's more beneficial for them to strike a deal. I'd go with option 3

Here's what I'd do; Leave the dragon in, but rather than having him be a major player in this whole conflict, have him be sympathetic to the Cleric's work, with their Goddess putting pressure on him to work with the Cleric. The Red, of course, is PISSED about that, but listens, out of respect for his deity.

Then, work in a meeting with the dragon at least two or three sessions before they fight the cleric. They do, of course, have the option of fighting him, which leads to the mooks->dragon->more bodyguards->big bad guy lineup. The OTHER option, however, would be to let them try and convince the dragon to work against the cleric. Drop some hints that he'd be willing to attack the cleric (for a price, of course), and if the PCs diplomacy it right, they can have a dragon on their side, or so they think.

The key here, of course, is the dragon isn't actually working for anyone but himself. He wants to be the Goddess's main choice, he's jealous of the cleric, and will take every opportunity possible to get in his way. When the players are about to start the fight with the cleric, they give the dragon the signal, he makes a single flyover pass with his breath weapon - and catches EVERYONE in it. Give the Cleric some kind of fire resistance to lessen the effect of this on him. In one fell swoop, you put major pressure on the PCs, instill a hatred of this dragon in them, and force them to choose whether to risk fighting this cleric when everyone's damaged, or break off to chase a dragon that just broke a deal.

The best part is that all this is well within a Red's worldview; Chaotic Evil + Greed makes this an extremely likely thing for him to do.

Pronounceable
2007-10-13, 11:43 AM
Wait a minute... Cutaway? You showing "cutscenes" to your players?

Charles Phipps
2007-10-13, 11:46 AM
Wait a minute... Cutaway? You showing "cutscenes" to your players?

Yeah, everyone does that.

You only don't do cut scenes when the villains plans are supposed to be a secret. It's important when you want a villain's plots and reasons to be known to a player for story reasons.

Like "A bunch of Stormtroopers attack you" is a random encounter, except if you know it's because Lord Vader knows you have the Death Star plans even if you don't.

Starsinger
2007-10-13, 11:54 AM
Wait a minute... Cutaway? You showing "cutscenes" to your players?

The Ravenloft DMG encourages this practice, especially to show creepy things like lycanthropes dismembering villagers to instill a sense of urgency in players.. but I rather like cutscenes for players.. It gives them a clearer picture of how the world works when the PCs aren't around.


So....does anyone think any of these would work/be convinving? Does anyone have another, better idea? the effective stats of both are very arrangable at the moment...

Well besides the ones you outlined (I rather like the whole Goddess tells the dragon to shut up and do it approach...) you could always have them attack the PCs at the same time, maybe play off the dragon's distaste for the cleric, so that the PCs can temporarily turn them against each other to gain the upper hand for a moment or two.

UserClone
2007-10-13, 12:06 PM
I'd go with a combination of #3 and Quietus's suggestion. THAT would be fun, for me at least.

Swooper
2007-10-13, 12:57 PM
5) The cleric really IS the dragon, polymorphed into human form.

Crow
2007-10-13, 01:01 PM
Have the Cleric double-cross the Dragon. He screws him over royally, and the Dragon comes to (or uses) the PC's for help (getting revenge).

Hecore
2007-10-13, 08:42 PM
Hmm, another way to do it.

Cleric has a different plan then the dragon. Goddess supports the clerics plan, and the dragon becomes his bodyguard. The dragon is clearly unhappy with this arrangement. Eventually, the players face both of them in a fight. The dragon stays back and harries the players. Enough that he's an annoyance, but not a real threat. If the players advance on the dragon he retreats some distance - enough to still be close to the fight but far enough away that it'll be a hastle. The cleric, on the other hand, demands thier attention.

The battle rages on. The cleric is severly wounded, and the players aren't doing too well either. At this point the dragon bites off the clerics head. He/She states something to the effect that things were tried the clerics way; now it's time to do things MY way. At this point the dragon flies/warps/ect. away.

Of course you run the risk of your players feeling ripped off by not being able to deliver the coup de gras, but it should cement the dragon as a hated enemy and villan #1.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-13, 08:58 PM
Or, play it simple, and have the cleric dominate the dragon. Or better, charm him, since it allows fo' the dragon to still fight effectively. Or do the last resort if you want the dragon to be the main enemy, which is just to make it do something truly horrific (like mass rape, death of an NPC relative, annihilation of towns "just because", etc.), so that the players will go "bring me the head of Dragon YYZ".

Xuincherguixe
2007-10-14, 07:37 AM
5) The cleric really IS the dragon, polymorphed into human form.

I was going to suggest that :P


This works even better if it looks like the Cleric and the Dragon are plotting against each other. Even better yet, each seems to have elaborate webs of schemes. Pitting double agents against the individual alias.

You know, I think I might do this in my monster campaign. Maybe scale things up a bit. Make it five villains that are really one villain.

I don't think it's really red dragon behavoir though. Perhaps give the Cleric the power to transform into a red dragon?

You can also try scaling up the significance of the dragon somehow.


Or, you can just change your plans and let the Cleric be the more significant thing because of your players. I like the idea of a Dragon mega badguy because it's not seen as often as the evil magician.

You also might want to give them some weird powers so they're more memorable. Being able to spontaneously grow extra body parts for instance? (So the priest can cast more spells ala Slayers, or the Dragon being able to breathe more fire)


Also, if you want the Dragon to be truely evil, mass destruction isn't likely to get the desired affect. It needs to be directed, and planned. Making it do very unsettling things helps too. It's one of the things that makes androgynous villains work (well, sometimes). I have some ideas but I suspect they're getting a bit close to breaking forum rules.

Kyle
2007-10-14, 08:41 AM
I think my approach would be to tease the characters along with the idea that they're finally going to get the oppertunity to meet the cleric face to face and avenge all those he's wronged.

Then, just as the players are so close they can taste it, the dragon would bust in, kill the cleric in an epic battle. It's motivation could be petty jealousy that the Goddess has apparently begun to favour the cleric more. The dragon would then either beat on the PCs until they drop it to about half damage, or it looks as though it's about to kill the party, which ever comes first.

With my group, having the kill stolen from them when it was just outside their grasp would suitably refocus their animosity to the dragon.

At that point, I'd increase my efforts to make the dragon seem like the most vile creature in existance while at the same time laying hints that the cleric's survining henchmen are up to something.

Finally, once I was ready to put the campaign to bed, the players would face off against the dragon. Once they defeated the red, it would be time for the newly ressurected cleric to appear, sporting a shiney new half-fiend template or something to give the characters the battle of their lives.

boomwolf
2007-10-14, 09:14 AM
you can show the cleric taking orders from the real bad guy. or being slaped around by him.