Actions, Quick Characters, & Super-Speed

[GGambrel]

How many actions (per round/turn) is too many to allow a single character/player? What if the character has super-speed?

My original (generic/universal) system currently gives bonuses to the chance of success and the effect (like damage) of actions taken by super-fast characters. This is meant to cut down on repeated rolling in cases where the character could conceivably take the same action multiple times per turn/round, allowing players of slower characters to keep close to the same amount of 'spotlight'. I plan to allow speedy characters to take multiple unique actions as well, but would like to hear opinions on what a good balance/limit would be.

For instance:

If a character is "ten times as quick as a regular person" should they be able to take 10 unique actions each round? Would the player of that character balk at being limited to 3 unique actions? Would giving a player 3x as many actions as normal slow things down too much?

Looking forward to hearing your perspectives!

[Zman]

Super speed does not mean super effective. Being ten times as fast does not mean a character is ten times as effective. Actions are abstract, and simply giving them a large number of bonus actions is likely a massive mistake from both a balance and a player satisfaction standpoint. We aren’t rolling a die for each separate punch, we’re rolling an attack that is the aggregate effect of all of those punches.

[Tiadoppler]

How many actions (per round/turn) is too many to allow a single character/player? What if the character has super-speed?

My original (generic/universal) system currently gives bonuses to the chance of success and the effect (like damage) of actions taken by super-fast characters. This is meant to cut down on repeated rolling in cases where the character could conceivably take the same action multiple times per turn/round, allowing players of slower characters to keep close to the same amount of 'spotlight'. I plan to allow speedy characters to take multiple unique actions as well, but would like to hear opinions on what would a good balance/limit would be.

For instance:

If a character is "ten times as quick as a regular person" should they be able to take 10 unique actions each round? Would the player of that character balk at being limited to 3 unique actions? Would giving a player 3x as many actions as normal slow things down too much?

Looking forward to hearing your perspectives!

My answer is:

It depends.

I'm so helpful!

You can design a game system to properly balance characters that get multiple actions. It really matters what the other (slow) characters get to do that balances out the speedster's multiple actions.

If you're playing D&D 5e, 10x actions is ridiculously overpowered, letting one character mow down an entire encounter's worth of enemies in a single round. That's because 5e is entirely designed around a specific action economy.

If you're playing a modern superhero game, 10x actions might be lackluster, next to "psychic who can take control of anyone on the planet" "dude who shoots lasers" "immortal regenerating dude" and "cyborg with radar-guided miniguns".



What does it mean to be "ten times as quick as a regular person"?

Do they have super-strength so they can move their muscles faster?
Do they have super-reflexes so they can react faster to stimuli?
Do they have super-traction so that they can accelerate faster than a normal person?
Do they have super-toughness so they don't shatter their arms by punching people?

[John Out West]

I had a similar problem. I added an Exhaustion system, where every action and check would slowly add up and eventually make the Player character Exhausted. Players can do about 5 Actions on their turn, (But only one attack) including moving multiple times. My players now have to do Risk Management, and figure out exactly how much effort they want to use in any given circumstance as to not completely exhaust themselves.

Hope this helps.

[GGambrel]

...giving them a large number of bonus actions is likely a massive mistake from both a balance and a player satisfaction standpoint.

I wholeheartedly agree! What I'm wondering is at what point do you feel the number of extra actions becomes too large?



What does it mean to be "ten times as quick as a regular person"?

The Speed attribute (currently) ties directly to 'actions per round' and 'movement per round' without concerning itself with the mechanism(s) which make this possible in a given campaign setting. So when I say "ten times as quick," I mean, "can take ten actions* for each action taken by a 'regular' character".
*subject to restrictions which prevent a single player's turn from taking much longer than those of other players

Given this definition of the Speed attribute, what do you feel some reasonable restrictions be?


I had a similar problem. I added an Exhaustion system... Players can do about 5 Actions on their turn...

How did you settle on 5 Actions? How many could a character reliably take while still avoiding exhaustion? What would the largest allowed discrepancy in Actions per turn between characters have been?

[John Out West]

A player could easily exhaust themselves in 5 turns if they go super-hardcore and wasteful. Less if they use specifically exhausting moves. 10 turns if they go all out without wasting. About 50 turns if they only take one attack action per round and are never attacked. Like if they were on a roof sniping with a bow.
This is all assuming they go into the battle completely fresh and without adventuring, which also exhausts them and reduces wasteful checks.

[MoleMage]

I had a similar problem. I added an Exhaustion system, where every action and check would slowly add up and eventually make the Player character Exhausted. Players can do about 5 Actions on their turn, (But only one attack) including moving multiple times. My players now have to do Risk Management, and figure out exactly how much effort they want to use in any given circumstance as to not completely exhaust themselves.

Hope this helps.

This seems to me the best way to handle it. It doesn't have to necessarily be exhaustion effects, but some consumable resource (energy, stamina, mana) that is consumed by fast characters in many small increments to take additional actions and by slow characters in big chunks. Then you throttle the total resource which can be spent per turn to be roughly equal across characters of the same power level, and the establish an expected value per resource spent (with specialists maybe getting more out of a point than generalists).

[GGambrel]

I am seriously looking into how my system handles fatigue/exhaustion now, but that seems more of the game balance side of things.

The other side of my question is more of a "flow of play" question: (In your opinion) About how much longer can one player's turn be than another's without boring the player with the shorter turn?

[Bjarkmundur]

Did you know that in 5e that downing a flask of ale is an object interaction, and drinking a potion is an action? The action chosen for these is not representative of the amount of liquid downed, but the mechanical effect gained.

This can be seen also with two-weapon fighting. It's an attack, but using a bonus action it yields a smaller mechanical benefit (no modifier to damage rolls)

For this reason, extra fast characters must still line up with slow characters in terms of mechanical benefit per action. Grod did a very interesting flash-type character a long time ago, which was widely praised for being a great way to fit a fast character into a restrictive action economy.

Best of luck! :D

[GGambrel]

Grod did a very interesting flash-type character a long time ago, which was widely praised for being a great way to fit a fast character into a restrictive action economy.

Best of luck! :D

Thanks! Would you happen to have a link (or year?) for Grod's post? (there are many!)

[Bjarkmundur]

Thanks! Would you happen to have a link (or year?) for Grod's post? (there are many!)

Found it (http://www.duckandrollgames.com/the-speedster-review) in my browser history!

If I where to add a mechanic where a player could take an additional action at some point (whether its a class feature, Feat, or whathaveyou) I'd probably balance it with initiative. We roll for new initiative every round (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.manzo.ddinitiative) so that would work in well at my table. Other things I can imagine would be a reverse-Dodge, sorta like Reckless attacl. Attacks against you have advantage and you have disadvantage on Dexterity saving thwos until the end of your next turn. This would allow a player to Front load his power at the drawback of being more vulnerable. I could very well see this being a universal mechanic, since then monster could benefit from it also. An ambush by a group of six Kenkus that all have action surge is a scaaaaaary thought.

[Breccia]

Superspeed is incredibly difficult to force into a turn-based game system.

Champions had a way to handle it that might apply: give the guy multiple initiative turns.

Another system I saw (one that died years ago) suggested that, rather than actually rolling multiple attacks, each "super speed point" used would add to your choice of the attack roll, or the damage roll, or your defenses, or initiative, or your speed. Basically, you could strike a few times lightly but be guaranteed to do damage, or throw multiple haymakers but risk even your reduced "wind up" time letting your opponent dodge just enough. Or you could just be annoying as hell and run circles around the opponent while he swings at air. Personally, I think this system works well for "low level" superpseed, not just because it's a simple, flexible mechanic, but giving a player ten actions means he's effectively playing ten characters, which is a monstrous jump in player power. I mean, if I said "my fighter has a sword that gives me the strength of ten men, so, it does 10d8+40 damage, averaging 85" you'd probably balk at those numbers. But attacking ten times is, on average, the same.

Plus let's not forget the other *cough* realistic side effects of superspeed, such as "your weapons probably break" and "your armor chafes so much you burst into flames" and "potions still fall into your throat by gravity, which is not sped up" etc etc.

Remember: superspeed in comics is often written to do random, crazy things that vary widely from character to character. A player who says he has superspeed will ask for rule bendings all the time. You're going to have to pick a system and stick with it.

Also, having one player act ten times in a row while everyone else in the party waits their turn doesn't sound like a lot of fun for the other players. Just throwing that out there.

[Silvercrys]

I guess my first clarifying question is, what sort of initiative/turn based system are you using?

I do think giving them ten times as many actions is far too many -- as others have mentioned, most combat isn't a true simulation but is an abstraction of the sorts of things happening in a round. Giving faster characters increased movement speed and bonuses to attack rolls is the standard way of handling this without breaking the action economy.

Probably even giving them twice as many actions is too many, though if you expect everyone to have some number of additional actions from the Speed stat it can create a kind of internal balance. If the "average" player has 3x normal actions and the dedicated super-speed character has 9x, they "only" have 3x as many actions as the other players. Probably still too many, but not as many as if standard players were stuck at 1x speed.

Another way I've seen this handled is through a shots-based initiative system. I tend to associate it with the Feng Shui Action Role-playing Game, but the basics are that everyone starts at one initiative count (say, 40) and whenever you take an action you have to pay in initiative. So if attacking costs 5 initiative and moving costs 3, you can attack on count 40, then move on count 35, then attack again at count 32, etc. You could inflate the initiative count (to, say, 100) and action costs (maybe attacking is 24 and moving is 20), then give faster characters a reduced action cost (to a certain minimum, maybe 1/2 of normal). This makes the player feel like they're getting a benefit out of their speed stat even when they're not getting full rounds of extra actions -- even at the maximum benefit they're only getting twice as many actions as everyone else, and other players/enemies can get actions in-between their actions so they aren't taking all the "screen time."

[Breccia]

I guess my first clarifying question is, what sort of initiative/turn based system are you using?

It sounds like we more or less agree, but reading your post made me realize something I should have mentioned earlier.

What happens with a 10x superspeed character, fights another 10x superspeed character?

Because that sounds like it should cancel out, and both characters would act effectively normally. Yes, other people nearby would act slower, but that's not the point right now.

If you had a system where one of the two acts ten times before the other one acts even once, then it doesn't feel right to me. I believe they should alternate, as they're about the same speed, rather than have one act all ten times first. It's exactly the same as two normal-speed characters over ten rounds, after all.

A "speed augment" system kind of handles that, in that the defender can "speed augment" their defenses and cancel out the attacker's attack benefits.

Taking multiple initiative turns handles that too.

[Bjarkmundur]

Taking multiple initiative turns handles that too.

This got me thinking. What if 2x faster is just 'one' initiative faster?

Turn 1-1: Creature 1
Turn 1-2: Creature 2
Turn 1-3: Creature 3
Turn 1-4: Speedster
Turn 2-1: Creature 1
Turn 2-2:Creature 2
Turn 2-3: Speedster
Turn 2-4: Creature 3
Turn 3-1: Creature 1
Turn 3-2: Speedster

As demonstrated, a speedster starts at 4th place in the initiative order, acting right after Creature 3. The following turn he moves up to 3rd place, now acting BEFORE creature 3. Each normal-speed creature has to wait 3 turns before acting, but the speedster only has 2 turns between acting.

When his speed upgrades he then jumps up two places in the initiative, etc.

It's a convoluted system, but an interesting mechanic. At least in theory. You would have to generate a list at the start of each encounter, but there are probably programs that let you do that.

[GGambrel]

Thanks for the replies!


I guess my first clarifying question is, what sort of initiative/turn based system are you using?

Currently the initiative system is 'Phase'-based with characters who are already in position being able to act before those who must move to do so. Characters may spend points of 'Speed' to take unique actions or (as in the system Breccia mentioned) to gain bonuses to an action, such as improved accuracy, damage, & number of targets for attacking. Otherwise I'm basically going around the table for initiative at this point, as I haven't really play-tested any super-speed characters yet. I think maybe alternating between high-speed characters and low-speed characters for declaring actions might give a similar result to the shot clock you mentioned (though I hope to avoid too much number-tallying).


What happens with a 10x superspeed character, fights another 10x superspeed character?

While the two superspeed characters might have matching bonuses to accuracy and evasion, the damage bonus would remain in place so that the fight would take less time than one between two slower characters... though maybe I should double-check the expected results of this. Thanks for bringing this scenario into sharper focus!


Probably even giving them twice as many actions is too many... If the "average" player has 3x normal actions and the dedicated super-speed character has 9x, they "only" have 3x as many actions as the other players. Probably still too many, but not as many as if standard players were stuck at 1x speed.

Thanks for answering my main question for this thread! :smallsmile: I can see where 2+ actions to another player's 1 could be an issue.

[GGambrel]

Found it (http://www.duckandrollgames.com/the-speedster-review) in my browser history!


Thanks! This was an interesting read.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I really, really, really recommend against giving fast characters extra combat actions. Honestly, I recommend against giving anyone extra combat actions; messing with the action economy is almost never balanced in a white room situation, and from a metagame level "Bob gets twice as many turns as Henry" will never fly. If you really want to, though, try to balance it against summoning-- a character who invests X resources into speed should get about as many actions that are about as effective as someone who invests X resources into having minions.

What's better, though, is to take the Mutants and Masterminds (https://greenroninstore.com/collections/m-m-pdfs/products/mutants-and-masterminds-power-profile-speed-powers-pdf) approach-- don't try to model super-speed as dozens of small individual actions taken really fast, model it as one action that creates a bigger effect. So, like, "I punch you a hundred times" should be handled about the same as "I shoot you with a machine gun." "I build a cage around you at super speed" should follow about the same rules as "I cast Forcecage."

[Morphic tide]

As Grod mentions, it's generally bad form to model super speed as numerous separate actions in tabletop. One homebrew system that tackles the underlying question of numerous similar actions would be the feature-complete Remnant Magic (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=113.0), where the mechanic is a given number of at-will uses of the titular remnants, fragments of long-ago spells that do small, but often iconic, effects. To quote how saves against Remnants work:


For all checks of a given type, use a single roll for each group of remnants, which is the term given to all remnants of the same name that are used by the same caster at the same target, targets, or target area in the same round (though conditions such as multi-classing may require that a caster not place all remnants of the same type into the same group). The success of the roll applies to half the remnants (rounded to the caster's benefit), plus or minus one for every point by which the check exceeds or misses the required amount, respectively. Evasion or Mettle halves the number of remnants that take effect after the saving throw calculation for Reflex or Will/Fortitude saves, respectively, and the improved versions of those abilities divide the number of effective remnants by 4 after the save instead (rounded down). Remnants are not specially affected by rolls of natural 1 or 20; treat these rolls as the same as other rolls in all aspects except value.

It boils down to using gradual defenses to model rough averages in a single roll, causing only a small bit of added math instead of large amounts of additional rolling. If the system uses gradual defenses to begin with, then the benefit of super-speed is granularity over increases in scope. You get a similar amount of bonus damage, but can split it between targets, while the strong characters can be given a consistency bonus in that their damage falls off less and grows more based on defenses as it's a single "lump sum" instead of having some bit of defensive math multiplied in value. And, of course, the two can be mixed without snapping the game wide open, as they're different additions to the same number, as opposed to different multipliers on that number.