Arcane Strike, Spellfire and Forsaker - Does it break the Forsaker's Code?

[EndlessKng]

So I was doing a reread of Forsaker yesterday and realized something - it restricts the use of Spell-Like Abilities and spells, but not supernatural abilities. This was probably somewhat intentional (a monk makes an excellent Forsaker, for instance), but I realized then that it went further.

First off, there's Spellfire. Spellfire is from the Forgotten Realms, and allows you to basically "eat" magic and SLAs, turning them into charges you can blast or heal with. The uses aren't super powerful unless you're a Spellfire Channeler in addition to having the feat, but the ability to negate spells is really handy for any character. Of course, it can be hard to do since it requires a "First Level Only" feat, and in-universe it's a gift from the goddess of magic, so it may not make sense for a Forsaker, but then again since it's 1st only, you could get the gift and choose to turn your back (earning her servant's enmity, but RAW the feat can't be taken away). Is there anything in RAW that makes taking at least Spellfire Wielder and then going Forsaker impossible?

Then I realized another feat exists - Arcane Strike. Arcane Strike is a gish feat that lets you burn spell slots to do extra damage and get a boost to the attack - you get a bonus equal to the spells level to the attack, and a number of bonus d4 on damage equal to the level as well (for the whole round, mind - so if you get three attacks and an AoO, each benefits). As you might imagine, it's a great feat for gish builds (even without a fighter level). But then I realized something else - based on the feat as written, the ability to do this isn't typed - it doesn't mention being supernatural, extraordinary, or SLA. I can see it being ruled Supernatural, but since it specifically doesn't provoke an AoO and doesn't require gestures or say it suffers from armor penalties, it seems that it isn't an SLA. It also doesn't make the weapon "magical" for other purposes, so the user isn't wielding a magic weapon unless the weapon was already magical. As such, it would in theory work for a caster who chose to forsake their own magic as well as all others (and I even designed a build that would do this, taking Wu Jen along with Precocious Apprentice and one of the save boosting feats at level 1, take binder at 2, take either at 3 with the Improved Binding feat, then jumping into Anima mage and level up that for seven levels while picking up the other two feats and then going forsaker at 11 - all the binder abilities are supernatural as well).

Obviously this breaks the RAI and the spirit of the class, and a DM would well be in their rights to say "lol no," but did I miss anything about Arcane Strike being considered an SLA, or do the RAW allow the former caster forsaken to use their excess and now useless arcane energy for extra damage?

[Sutr]

I like the forsaker spellfire image. What Greek tragedy for a character to reject their gifts like that. I think arcane strike is good too.

[EndlessKng]

I like the forsaker spellfire image. What Greek tragedy for a character to reject their gifts like that. I think arcane strike is good too.

I hadn't really considered the tragic aspect until this post actually (partly because I've also been playing with Spellfire as a stand-in for Stormlight from the Stormlight Archives - it gives a similar glow, allows healing and some strange features, etc., and thus had been detaching it from Mystra and the plot), but you're 100% right.

There's one other build too, but that is explicitly allowed - the Vow of Poverty Forsaker. A human monk is especially good at this one, since you get a couple bonus feats early on - still takes till 10th level to get Forsaker, unless you're allowed to take flaws, but all works out since there are no SLAs up to that point and VOP is all supernatural abilities. With the right fighting style and two fighter levels, that build also could take Arcanopath monk up to 4th level to really mess with spellcasters. Again, all legal RAW and even arguably RAI, unlike the options above, but wanted to mention those too in case anyone is mining this for Forsaker ideas.

EDIT: Evidently True Spellfire is actually a rare quirk and somewhat random, whereas lesser spellfire or "silverfire" comes from being a chosen of Mystra. Still, technically it is a gift of Mystra to the world and I can't imagine her being happy to see it used against magic.

[Endarire]

Also consider reserve feats like Storm Bolt: They aren't spells!

And maneuvers/stances! Breath weapons!

And the feat Supernatural Transformation (Psionics)!

[EndlessKng]

Also consider reserve feats like Storm Bolt: They aren't spells!

And maneuvers/stances! Breath weapons!

And the feat Supernatural Transformation (Psionics)!

Maneuvers and Stances I had accounted for and am okay with - they don't specifically break the idea of an anti-caster (and in some ways support it - someone who learns to do amazing things with just their will). I had exempted psionics, as by default they are a "type" of Magic/SLA. But the reserve feat is one I HADN'T considered - but yes, they are supernatural abilities. However, I'd argue they'd only work for spontaneous casters, as you have to have a prepared spell to use the feat if you are a prepared caster, and the act of preparing a spell would be anathema (whereas even unprepared the slots/energies are arguably still there to use for Arcane Strike). But yes... Reserve Feats RAW are open to Forsakers...

Admittedly, it is likely a result of Forsaker not being updated into 3.5 and no one really thinking about it. But still.

[Endarire]

Also consider Incarnum abilities.

[Mato]

Also consider reserve feats like Storm Bolt: They aren't spells!
And maneuvers/stances! Breath weapons!
And the feat Supernatural Transformation (Psionics)!

Also consider Incarnum abilities.
Don't forget infusions, utterances, visages, and all the other alternative magical abilities that didn't exist when MotW was printed!

[EndlessKng]

Also consider Incarnum abilities.

Ironically, the Witchborn Binder, which is about hunting arcane casters with Incarnum, WOULDN'T work well with the Forsaker. If taken before it could work, but it has two SLAs in its build, and despite both fitting the idea of a mage-hunter, the Forsaker wouldn't be able to use (or after becoming a Forsaker, arguably LEARN) them.

Then again, Incarnum in general would be a powerful tool...

Man. The Forsaker can be really magical without using any magic. That's dumb. There are some abilities that fit (like those of the Witchslayer, which has supernatural abilities but dedicated towards attacking possessions and binding) but man... this was not what was intended.

...I kind of want to see a Junkyard Wars or Iron Chef devoted to the Forsaker now.

EDIT: Upon further review, I think Soulmelding specifically may be in the "iffy" category, along with Psionics, due to the Soulmeld Magic Transparency - it's treated as a magic item, it can be dispelled or suppressed, etc. It's not quite an SLA as it doesn't mention AOO (or didn't in my brief review) but it appears the intent was for soulmelds to be considered magic.

That doesn't affect ALL incarnum though - incarnum feats would still be viable options

[Mato]

Man. The Forsaker can be really magical without using any magic. That's dumb.Not really.

the forsaker must also refuse any benefits from others’ magic
It's not just spells, they must refuse all magic if possible.

Forsakers can multiclass normally, as long as they continue to abide by the strictures of the prestige class. Any forsaker who willingly violates those strictures by using magic items or casting spells loses all special abilities of the prestige class and can progress no further as a forsaker. If he thereafter remains pure (uses no magic) for a period of a year and a day, his abilities are reinstated at their previous levels and he may once again progress in the prestige class.And once barred, any form of magic will continue to nullify the class features and prevent progression no matter how much context is ignored.

Magic is evil. Magic tempts. Magic perverts. Magic corrupts. Anyone who cannot embrace these truths has no business considering the path of the forsaker.

Another thing to consider is it is a 3.0 class and it does require updating to use. Incorporating alternative spellcasting systems that the class is clearly designed to never use but didn't exist when Masters of the Wild was printed should be a consideration, even if you think the DM should pick your answer on how.

[Darrin]

...I kind of want to see a Junkyard Wars or Iron Chef devoted to the Forsaker now.


I used all 10 levels of Forsaker in the Shadowsmith round (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528361-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXVII) of Iron Chef:

Keyrock, Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22192901&postcount=80)

Almost all of the Shadowsmith class abilities are (Su), so he can use them... although if he casts a shadow mystery, he loses his Forsaker abilities for a week.

[EndlessKng]

I used all 10 levels of Forsaker in the Shadowsmith round (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528361-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXVII) of Iron Chef:

Keyrock, Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22192901&postcount=80)

Almost all of the Shadowsmith class abilities are (Su), so he can use them... although if he casts a shadow mystery, he loses his Forsaker abilities for a week.

I noticed in the list that several builds utilized the Forsaker. Still do want to see a full contest on it one day to see what craziness people come up with, merging in the supernatural and untyped abilities.

[Endarire]

Bardic Music is normally (Su). Breath weapons are too!

[EndlessKng]

Bardic Music is normally (Su). Breath weapons are too!

Breath weapons I think I knew instinctively but not cognitively - they tend to be natural to a supernatural creature, or developed by those with dragon blood. But the bardic music is an interesting twist...

Also, I realized we have an arguable example of this archetyep of "psuero-magic to fight and destroy magic and mages" in fiction, and a prominent one at that - FMA/FMA:B's Scar. He is using a sort of alchemy in destroying things but it is based on odd principles and, though functionally identical, works using different methods than both Alchemy and Alkahestry/Xing Alchemy. An argument could be made that this is a forsaker using supernatural means to destroy magic, breaking the spirit but not letter of his law.

[Endarire]

@Darrin: The Caveman Lawyer is an interesting build but his math is faulty: 3.5's ring of invisibility is 20,000G, not 7500G, and making the LotR version would likely cost more.