The Most Disturbing D&D Question?

[Sherlockpwns]

To get to the question that was asked I need a brief moment to setup the pre-questions, and it's all about Druid Wildshape.

When you wildshape, do you take only the form of the new creature or do you biologically change? E.g. If you turn into a horseshoe crab, is your blood blue or red?

The RAW say "Shape" of the new creature, but if it were only shape how would you gain venomous attacks and other biological changes? Does every cell in your body change?

My initial reaction is the latter, or else why would you lose and gain genetic advantages like dark vision, vulnerabilities, etc.

Second question is, what happens if parts leave your body? E.g. You have your leg cut off while in wolf form. Does it immediately revert to human form? Does it stay in wolf form forever? What about the affordmentioned blood? If you get cut does the blood transform from blue to red as it leaves your body? This is massively less clear to me.

And so it was that our Druid asked the question that should never be asked:

If the objects leaving your body stay in their genetically changed form... does that mean a Druid can wild shape into a creature, lets say a wolf, find a lady wolf, and have wolf babies?

And now I can't sleep at night.

[Envoy]

A real question, but I’ll take liberties from changelings and say when they get severed, it turns human. Blood changes, as their biology directly mimics the one being transformed into, which includes organs or fluids. Hope this helps!

[Laserlight]

In answer to your Disturbing Question: probably yes, but only a cad would do...oh wait, player character. Yeah, go right ahead. Better not mention it to anyone, though, in case there's a plague of werewolves around here in the next few years.

[BurgerBeast]

I don’t think there’s any clear answer to this, but for me, there is no 1-to-1 correspondence of parts. That is to say, if a one armed Druid shapeshifts, the animal is not missing the corresponding forelimb. The reason is that there often is no corresponding part. What if one form has more legs, or wings in addition to four limbs, or a tail, for example?

However, I can understand the desire to have it be so: the Druid with the scar on his face can be identified because his animal forms also have the scar, or the glass eye, or whatever.

If you do play with a correspondence of parts, then I would rule that the animal and all of its parts would revert whenever the Druid reverts.

First you’d have to decide what causes childbirth in your setting to begin with, because it’s not necessarily simple biology. Heredity may not be a Mendelian genetic process, in any case.

Childbirth might be a magical process or the details might be.

If you decided that the process is more or less the same as the real-life process, then I would personally rule that the cells remain wolf cells until the Druid reverts, and if the cellular level fertilization event occurs while the cells are wolf cells, then a wolf zygote forms and that the zygote is no longer reversible.

Given the length of time between copulation and fertilization, this could take a while. I’m not familiar with animal cycles but in humans the cells can live inside the female for 1-2 weeks before fertilization occurs, if I recall.

[Sigreid]

Eh, why not? That kind of thing is all over human mythology.

[nickl_2000]

Eh, why not? That kind of thing is all over human mythology.

Ya, but they usually involve gods, and while the PCs may think they are gods they aren't yet.

[Bjarkmundur]

Eh, why not? That kind of thing is all over human mythology. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2s2LGj01Sc)

[PhoenixPhyre]

Since I don't worry about real-life biology (heck, I don't even do real-life molecular physics), it's less of a problem.

Wildshape is calling on the primal spirit of the beast in question, forming a body for it out of anima (the stuff of magic) and metaphysically merging your body with this spirit/body. When the binding breaks due to damage or the end of the duration, the temporarily-condensed anima disperses leaving you as you were. Basically, you're wearing a padded beast suit.

And yes, wildshaped druids (or polymorphed creatures) can have children. They partake of both natures, because inheritance (for me) is much more spiritual than directly physical. In fact, Orcs were created by creatively polymorphing animals and hobgoblins[1] into suitable shapes and breeding them (and their children, and...). Same with most "beast-like" races. Usually by elves, because elves had the lifespan for such multi-generational breeding projects. And the arrogance and magic to do it.

So a lupine-shaped druid and a female wolf would produce smarter cubs, some of which might even be able to talk....oh wait. We call those worgs. Keep breeding things, and you could get wolf-men.

Now the real disturbing one is what happens if the druid is a) high enough level for a long-duration wildshape and b) female? Or just pregnant normally? How do the unborn children change? Is the effect long-lasting?

[Sigreid]

Ya, but they usually involve gods, and while the PCs may think they are gods they aren't yet.

Happens plenty with humans and animals...such as the Minotaur.

[nickl_2000]

Now the real disturbing one is what happens if the druid is a) high enough level for a long-duration wildshape and b) female? Or just pregnant normally? How do the unborn children change? Is the effect long-lasting?

Anything they are carrying is either merged into the form or dropped into the ground. Another term for pregnant is "carrying a baby.". Thus you get to choose.

Also by RAW, you could wildshape to skip labor completely!

[HappyDaze]

Because hit points do not really change and equipment just sort of disappears, I have envisioned it as the druid's body disappearing and an animal body simultaneously appearing with the druid's consciousness driving it. When wild shape ends, the animal body disappears and the druid's body simultaneously reappears with the druid's consciousness driving it. Any pieces of the animal body that have been severed simply disappear when wild shape ends.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Anything they are carrying is either merged into the form or dropped into the ground. Another term for pregnant is "carrying a baby.". Thus you get to choose.

Also by RAW, you could wildshape to skip labor completely!

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't play RAW straight as the laws of nature of the setting. Or forbid druids from getting pregnant. One or the other. :smalltongue:

[bid]

Remember James Cameron's Avatar?
That what you are, remoting a real creature.

When it dies/revert, the creature vanishes in a puff of logic leaving you behind.
You didn't get maimed or anything, it's not you.


Now if your wizard pal needs a lion whisker for his spell, it's not clear if you can use your wildshape to supply him. Nor is it clear if blood/body parts should stay behind. It's magic after all.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You didn't get maimed or anything, it's not you.

Now if your wizard pal needs a lion whisker for his spell, it's not clear if you can use your wildshape to supply him. Nor is it clear if blood/body parts should stay behind. It's magic after all.

Although if you take more damage than the form can survive, the damage does transfer over (possibly knocking you out). Some sort of metaphysical feedback?

I would absolutely rule that all parts/blood/remains vanish when the wildshape ends. Heck, I'd even say that severed limbs would instantly flash into sparkles of diffuse anima. But since I don't play with limb severing on, so it's never come up.

[nickl_2000]

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't play RAW straight as the laws of nature of the setting. Or forbid druids from getting pregnant. One or the other. :smalltongue:

Honestly, I'm a little bit proud of that bit of rules lawyering.

[Sherlockpwns]

I am just glad to see some division amongst everyone, because if it were unanimous that you can breed I think our Druid would go full Island of Dr. Moreau and attempt to breed with everything he found.

Now, that also brings up the important question of Polymorph.... and god forbid, TWO polymorphs to take two creatures that aren't alike, turn them into the same creature, and see what happens...

[Bjarkmundur]

Plot twist: Due to the magical and in-accurate nature of shape shifting, you actually always transform into a pregnant female, but don't stay in your form long enough to give birth or feel your pregnancy in any way :O

[Tawmis]

And so it was that our Druid asked the question that should never be asked:
If the objects leaving your body stay in their genetically changed form... does that mean a Druid can wild shape into a creature, lets say a wolf, find a lady wolf, and have wolf babies?
And now I can't sleep at night.

You should really check out a comic called ElfQuest...

[nickl_2000]

I am just glad to see some division amongst everyone, because if it were unanimous that you can breed I think our Druid would go full Island of Dr. Moreau and attempt to breed with everything he found.

Now, that also brings up the important question of Polymorph.... and god forbid, TWO polymorphs to take two creatures that aren't alike, turn them into the same creature, and see what happens...

You could also just allow it, but bring it into being a plot point. Maybe druid circles consider it am abomination to do exactly that and seek to destroy the progeny of such a unnatural union. Tell the player about this beforehand or at least hint at it. Now you have given the player control and they know the consequences.

Now the PC has to decide what happens to said child once it is born. Do they protect it and make enemies of the Druid circle?

[Sigreid]

I am just glad to see some division amongst everyone, because if it were unanimous that you can breed I think our Druid would go full Island of Dr. Moreau and attempt to breed with everything he found.

Now, that also brings up the important question of Polymorph.... and god forbid, TWO polymorphs to take two creatures that aren't alike, turn them into the same creature, and see what happens...

Would be a handy explanation for how the eberon shifter races got started.

[JackPhoenix]

Would be a handy explanation for how the eberon shifter races got started.

Speaking of Eberron, according to some legends, the origin of Valenar horses lies with druids who got cursed by the giants to stay in their wildshape permanently during elven rebelion.

[HappyDaze]

Remember James Cameron's Avatar?
That what you are, remoting a real creature.

When it dies/revert, the creature vanishes in a puff of logic leaving you behind.
You didn't get maimed or anything, it's not you.


Now if your wizard pal needs a lion whisker for his spell, it's not clear if you can use your wildshape to supply him. Nor is it clear if blood/body parts should stay behind. It's magic after all.

That's pretty much my answer but with a reference attached. I approve.

[Chronos]

I think we can draw guidance from the previously-mentioned poison. If you turn into a cobra, bite someone, and turn back into a humanoid, they stay poisoned. So poison remains poison, even after it leaves the beast's body, and even after the transformation into the beast's body ends.

If cobra poison remains cobra poison, then logically, crab blood would likewise remain crab blood, and wolf semen would remain wolf semen.

[Imbalance]

See, I would have pegged (https://youtu.be/IRsc57nK8mg) Andrew Stockdale as a bard...

[Nagog]

I'd rule that severed body parts would remain, but dissolve and disappear when the Wild Shape ends. Primarily so the Druid's Polymorph doesn't morbidly become the party's primary food source.

As for the disturbing question: I'd say yes, you could. Mostly because Loki, the Norse God, did it on a few occasions. Granted, the Loki of the old myths was much more promiscuous and... varied in many ways than the Loki people know now (mostly from Marvel), and considering Druidic culture has it's roots in the same time period and relatively close areas of the world (irl at least), it stands to reason to think they had similar mind sets.

So, yes you could. But you really, really shouldn't. Leave sleeping with the NPCs to the bard.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Ya, but they usually involve gods, and while the PCs may think they are gods they aren't yet.

Eh, apparently stupidly large hp and DR aside the average mid-level PC spellcaster is more impressive than most gods.

As far as I am concerned the answer is

What?
Is that really the game I signed up for?
Look, there is no way this was on anyone's mind when they wrote the rules so it is the very definition of a DM call. Call yes, call no, call a therapist. Is up to them.

[PhoenixPhyre]

But you really, really shouldn't. Leave sleeping with the NPCs to the bard.

So far, the bard in my party has gotten jumped by one NPC. The paladin(!) is likely to make a significant mistake due to lust very soon...I'm going to have to talk to him about how that fits with his Oath, which is Vengeance, but letting a sealed-evil-in-a-can out just so he can score with a pair of half-devil chicks is likely to not fit very well. Although his big thing is releasing people from slavery, and the two of them are bound under a contract (to their dad) that wasn't their choice...

[Griswold]

Now the real disturbing one is what happens if the druid is a) high enough level for a long-duration wildshape and b) female? Or just pregnant normally? How do the unborn children change? Is the effect long-lasting?

Why would the druid need to be female? I assume that when you wildshape you can choose the form's gender.

Most of the time it won't matter, but can a male druid not turn into a hermaphroditic animal? What's the gender of elementals? And there is at least one published beast (the steeder) with a significant sexual dimorphism.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Why would the druid need to be female? I assume that when you wildshape you can choose the form's gender.

Most of the time it won't matter, but can a male druid not turn into a hermaphroditic animal? What's the gender of elementals? And there is at least one published beast (the steeder) with a significant sexual dimorphism.

Nothing in particular, but if the druid is male, the question has a rather squicky ending when he transforms back to his normal form. He can take female forms, but his base form can't really sustain a pregnancy very well.

[Segev]

Recall that half-dragons occur because dragons shapeshift into other creatures and have dalliances with actual members of the species they're impersonating.

I believe the answer to a druid wildshaping and having kids with an animal would be similar. This is probably where anthropomorphic animals come from.

[NoxMiasma]

Honestly, I'm going to be very boring and say that it depends on the druid. Remember that druidic wildshaping is explicitly very different from how a werebeast, doppelganger, dragon, or shapechanging fiend - they all have one HP pool, whereas a PC druid gets what I joking refer to as "Bear HP".

However, hit points aren't directly meat. So how a druid's wildshaping works with removed limbs, blood or other body parts will depend on how that druid's player and DM flavor wildshaping. Maybe the druid makes deals with shamanistic animal spirits, constructing a totemic representation or giving themselves a sacred tattoo, allowing that druid to use the shape, and that could perhaps have any particularly lasting harm persist as damage to the tattoo or totem. Maybe the druid brute forces themself into animal form, using sheer magical strength, and so any form they take will, on some levels, still be like their humanoid one, such as an insect bleeding red human blood when injured (actually, that works quite well as a Moon druid so using a spell slot to heal is an infusion of primal magic to stabilise the form). Or maybe you just go full Animorphs about it, and have any injury short of death resolved by switching forms, justifying returning to humanoid form at 0 animal HP as a reflexive effort to prevent death, taking advantage of how the shapeshifting will heal any injury.

(And now I'm wondering what happens if a Vorpal Sword's effect triggers on a wildshaped druid? Do they die outright, or does the animal shape hit 0 hp, causing them to change back?)

[ChildofLuthic]

So I imagine that when you wild shaped back, your embryo would wild shape into a human (or elf or whatever) embryo. Which isnt necessarily the coolest thing in a game, but makes for a hell of a backstory.

Your character is literally a wolf caught in human form. Perhaps you go the druid path of your mother, or you play your savage nature up as a wolf totem barbarian. Or maybe you're a ranger (probably STR) with survivalist instincts and a wolf companion.

[GlenSmash!]

When your wildshape ends you lose all HPs of the beast form and return to all HPs of your base form. Likewise with polymorph.

The same is not true of Lycanthropes or Dragon's Change Shape feature who are shown to be able to produce cross bred offspring ie, Half dragons Draconic Bloodline sorcerers, shifters etc.

The conclusion I draw from this is that any part that may be severed in beast form will disappear with the Druid returns to main form since that form and all it's HPs are gone and completely replaced by the new form and all it's HPs .

So I would rule no half druid half beast offspring.

Edit: Now if a lycanthrope in beast form impregnates a druid in beast form, or a dragon and a humanoid polymorphed into a dragon, that is more of a gray area to me.

[Sherlockpwns]

Edit: Now if a lycanthrope in beast form impregnates a druid in beast form, or a dragon and a humanoid polymorphed into a dragon, that is more of a gray area to me.

What have you done...

[GlenSmash!]

What have you done...

Just made some more Shifters and Half Dragons. :smallbiggrin:

[MagneticKitty]

Maybe it's like animorphs.. each time you turn into an animal, it uses DNA and turns into that one specific animal that you examined (met) in its prime. So any limbs you lost last time are not really stored in dna, and would come back next time you change into it. So you interact with A grey tabby cat and a siamese anytime you turn into a cat you pick one of those two.
As for detached limbs... in animorphs all extra matter is stored in a special dimension.. if you lose an arm in animal form and come back i would assume if you need exfra matyer its taken from spare matter. Maybe that could explain why druids live so long, they keep getting refreshed when they turn back into humanoid by less old matter...

If nothing else is cool flavor.
And I'm just a dork who likes that book series.

[Sherlockpwns]

And I'm just a dork who likes that book series.

You and my wife. Thankfully the Animorphs didn't go into what happens when they breed in their animal forms... But I am sure some fanfic on the internet has done this. Absolutely certain of it, but I will not google it.

[GlenSmash!]

You and my wife. Thankfully the Animorphs didn't go into what happens when they breed in their animal forms... But I am sure some fanfic on the internet has done this. Absolutely certain of it, but I will not google it.

That's a real life successful Wisdom Saving Throw right there.

[NNescio]

And so it was that our Druid asked the question that should never be asked:

If the objects leaving your body stay in their genetically changed form... does that mean a Druid can wild shape into a creature, lets say a wolf, find a lady wolf, and have wolf babies?

And now I can't sleep at night.


Druid: I wildshape into a mare to distract the knight's warhorse.
DM: Are you sure?
Druid: Yes...? Nothing in the rules says I'm limited to gender when wildshaping. I'm allowed to, right?
DM: Yes. But... *puts on prop viking helmet* Are you sure?
Druid: Ohhh... I get it, I know my mythology. Yes.
DM: Wuh?
Druid: I wildshape into a mare. Now what do I roll?
Bard: I'm giving him Bardic Inspiration for this. *SLOW SENSUAL MUSIC*
DM: But... but...
Cleric: I touch the mare with guidance.
DM: But... wha...
Bard: She already has guidance.
Cleric: Oh, riiight. Enhance ability then. Charisma?
Bard: Handle Animal uses Wis now.
DM: It's Animal Handl—
Cleric: Right. Wis it is.
DM: Guys...
Paladin: Do I get a new mount?
DM: *sobs hysterically*