Wizard Casting or a bunch of free Wishes?

[ChuckBarrington]

I'm planning a backup for a character I'm playing in a fairly high level campaign at the moment, and decided to go from LG Pelor Turn-O-Matic (TM) to an Ur-Priest, and found a lovely build here in the playground, detailing a Sneak Attack Thug 1/Focused Conjurer 4/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8/Abj Champ 5. I love the idea of it, but looking at it I realized that it gives up something very important from Ur-Priest.

Namely, the ability to steal SLA's off of things with no save involved 1/day for 24 hours. I could ignore the 8 levels of MT, but that stops me from having any wizard casting worth mentioning, and wizards have some damn useful spells. My idea was to use Planar Ally to ask for an Efreeti, given that we're both fire-obsessed LE maniacs, and steal their Wish 3/day, mostly for the whole inherent bonus to stats thing. Obviously not going to use it for infinite wealth, that's just asking for rocks fall everyone dies.

So, Playgrounders, my question is thusly; Take the levels in MT to eventually gain 9th level wizard spells, or take the other 8 levels of Ur-Priest and steal spells off of my Planar Allies, maybe take Hierophant for continuing buffs to my CL or something?

Other option to consider is that the GM tends to throw high numbers around when it comes to damage, and the MT has d4's. 13d4+1d10+2d8 do not a healthy caster make, even with 16 con. If I had 10d8 though, I might be able to afford to leave my con at 15 so I could survive a bit better.

[Mr Adventurer]

With more Wizard casting you can stack more temporary hit points. 10d8 versus 10d4 is only 20hp more.

[ChuckBarrington]

With more Wizard casting you can stack more temporary hit points. 10d8 versus 10d4 is only 20hp more.

I'll admit to only have played like, a 2nd level wizard before. are there many fairly long-duration spells that grant temp HP?

[Mr Adventurer]

Either yes, and/or they aren't so long-lasting but it doesn't matter because hit points are ablative.

But here are the two I do know:

False Life (2nd, 1d10+CL)
Heart of Earth (4th, 2xCL)

[bean illus]

Are you using a prc to advance the casting of another prc?

Because a lot of games don't allow that.

The steal SLA thing is cool, but I'd be careful not to annoy the DJ or the table. Rule of thumb; 'no custom wishes during combat'. Just duplicate the spell and be happy with the spell access.

[Rebel7284]

Are you using a prc to advance the casting of another prc?

Because a lot of games don't allow that.

They don't? Why? It's perfectly rules legal.

[Kalkra]

As an Ur-Priest, you also get Delay Death. Who cares about hitpoints? (Until it wears off.)

[bean illus]

They don't? Why? It's perfectly rules legal.

I'm not much of a rules lawyer, but we play the assumption that only classes with a spell list qualify for theurging.
Uncanny trickster and legacy champion are the only 2 I know that advance a class feature.

Here's some lawyering on it.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67985/can-a-theurge-prestige-class-increase-the-level-of-a-different-theurge-prest

[Mr Adventurer]

As an Ur-Priest, you also get Delay Death. Who cares about hitpoints? (Until it wears off.)

You also need Beastlands Ferocity or it's almost worthless.

[Zaq]

I'm not much of a rules lawyer, but we play the assumption that only classes with a spell list qualify for theurging.
Uncanny trickster and legacy champion are the only 2 I know that advance a class feature.

Here's some lawyering on it.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67985/can-a-theurge-prestige-class-increase-the-level-of-a-different-theurge-prest

There’s a big difference between using MT to advance, say, ur-priest (which has its own spells to advance) and, for example, radiant servant (which doesn’t have its own spells). In my reading, the former is kosher and the latter is not.

Unless we’re not talking about the same thing?

[ChuckBarrington]

Are you using a prc to advance the casting of another prc?

Because a lot of games don't allow that.

The steal SLA thing is cool, but I'd be careful not to annoy the DJ or the table. Rule of thumb; 'no custom wishes during combat'. Just duplicate the spell and be happy with the spell access.

While I could do the wishes in combat, it seems in bad taste. I mostly want it for the inherent bonuses, like I said. Duplicating any wizard spell of 8th level or under with the wishes and just ignoring wizard casting was on my mind, but there's a few 9th level wizard spells that are really good, like Reaving Dispel, Prismatic Sphere, Disjunction, Time Stop, Shapechange, Effulgent Epuration to stop all those nasty dispels, etc.

[ChuckBarrington]

Either yes, and/or they aren't so long-lasting but it doesn't matter because hit points are ablative.

But here are the two I do know:

False Life (2nd, 1d10+CL)
Heart of Earth (4th, 2xCL)

That's about what I found, though I also had Hero's Feast for 1d8 +1/2 CL, max of 10. Anyone got any more?

[bean illus]

There’s a big difference between using MT to advance, say, ur-priest (which has its own spells to advance) and, for example, radiant servant (which doesn’t have its own spells). In my reading, the former is kosher and the latter is not.

Unless we’re not talking about the same thing?

Well I'm sure I would enjoy playing at your table, ask your DM, etc.

[ChuckBarrington]

Well I'm sure I would enjoy playing at your table, ask your DM, etc.

My GM is the same, with minor exceptions. Anything that's RAW and in the allowed books is usually good to go. So, has any consensus been reached on wizard casting vs pretending to have wizard casting via free wishes?

[Mr Adventurer]

That's about what I found, though I also had Hero's Feast for 1d8 +1/2 CL, max of 10. Anyone got any more?

Oh, if we're going beyond Wizard spells then Aid is another super common one. Vampiric Touch comes to mind.

Edit: many of the Polymorph sub-school spells grant temporary hit points. Doing a search: Channelled Life Theft, Consumptive Field, Crown of Glory, Death Dragon, Death Knell, Divine Power, Greater Heroism, Lion's Roar, Righteous Fury, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Stalwart Pact, and Virtue.

Then there are feats like Minor Shapeshift or class features like Bardic Music.

[ChuckBarrington]

Oh, if we're going beyond Wizard spells then Aid is another super common one. Vampiric Touch comes to mind.

Edit: many of the Polymorph sub-school spells grant temporary hit points. Doing a search: Channelled Life Theft, Consumptive Field, Crown of Glory, Death Dragon, Death Knell, Divine Power, Greater Heroism, Lion's Roar, Righteous Fury, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Stalwart Pact, and Virtue.

Then there are feats like Minor Shapeshift or class features like Bardic Music.

Thanks for all the spells my man, and yeah, either way I've got 1st-9th cleric spells on hand. My main issue is free wishes vs full wizard casting.

[Jack_Simth]

They don't? Why? It's perfectly rules legal.
"Rules legal" and "suitable for this specific gaming table" don't always see eye to eye. Sometimes they're not even on speaking terms, and the OP is looking at a specific table. Pun-pun is also completely rules-legal, including the level 1 build - that doesn't mean the build is suitable for play at any but the highest optimization tables.

Thanks for all the spells my man, and yeah, either way I've got 1st-9th cleric spells on hand. My main issue is free wishes vs full wizard casting.
Free Wishes. Magic Item creation clause gets you staffs and scrolls. Also: Transport Travelers can get you out of SO MANY JAMS.

The big question is "Do you have to play some distance to reach the Ur-Priest capstone, or are you starting there? Starting at 10th and needing to play through five levels as essentially just an Ur-Priest is a different kettle of fish from starting at 15th and having the free Wishes from the get-go. If you have to play through those five levels, you'll greatly appreciate having the Wizard spells to fall back on. If you don't, they're a lot less of a loss.

Also don't forget: You've got a split casting stat (Int/Wis) with the Theurge build. That also waters down characters.

[ChuckBarrington]

"Rules legal" and "suitable for this specific gaming table" don't always see eye to eye. Sometimes they're not even on speaking terms, and the OP is looking at a specific table. Pun-pun is also completely rules-legal, including the level 1 build - that doesn't mean the build is suitable for play at any but the highest optimization tables.

Free Wishes. Magic Item creation clause gets you staffs and scrolls. Also: Transport Travelers can get you out of SO MANY JAMS.

The big question is "Do you have to play some distance to reach the Ur-Priest capstone, or are you starting there? Starting at 10th and needing to play through five levels as essentially just an Ur-Priest is a different kettle of fish from starting at 15th and having the free Wishes from the get-go. If you have to play through those five levels, you'll greatly appreciate having the Wizard spells to fall back on. If you don't, they're a lot less of a loss.

Also don't forget: You've got a split casting stat (Int/Wis) with the Theurge build. That also waters down characters.

I'm starting at 15th, so I haven't got any Abj Champ levels yet, and I rolled fairly well, so my int at this point including the inherent bonuses would be 27 from a variety of things including a headband and persisted Greater Visage. The GM would probably beat me relentlessly if I just up and started making magic items for free, but not hate me so much if I were just improving a magic item I bought normally.

Thanks for the input guys, I think I'm going to go with the Wishes, now my only problem is what to take for those last 5 levels. Abj Champ would still be pretty nice, if only for the bonus to AC, but even without it my AC is damn gross. Monk's Belt and tons of Wisdom will do that for you. Any suggestions on the last 5 levels?

[Jack_Simth]

I'm starting at 15th, so I haven't got any Abj Champ levels yet, and I rolled fairly well, so my int at this point including the inherent bonuses would be 27 from a variety of things including a headband and persisted Greater Visage. The GM would probably beat me relentlessly if I just up and started making magic items for free, but not hate me so much if I were just improving a magic item I bought normally.

Thanks for the input guys, I think I'm going to go with the Wishes, now my only problem is what to take for those last 5 levels. Abj Champ would still be pretty nice, if only for the bonus to AC, but even without it my AC is damn gross. Monk's Belt and tons of Wisdom will do that for you. Any suggestions on the last 5 levels?

Anything that fully advances your divine casting. Complete Divine has a lot of PrC's for that - Contemplative and Divine Oracle are both pretty easy to get into for you. Loremaster (DMG) is an oldie but a goodie. No, you don't get more spell slots, but your caster level keeps up, and that is important. Also grab Practiced Spellcaster, of course.

[ChuckBarrington]

Anything that fully advances your divine casting. Complete Divine has a lot of PrC's for that - Contemplative and Divine Oracle are both pretty easy to get into for you. Loremaster (DMG) is an oldie but a goodie. No, you don't get more spell slots, but your caster level keeps up, and that is important. Also grab Practiced Spellcaster, of course.

I was thinking either Contemplative, Master of Shrouds, Heirophant, or Church Inquisitor, but I'm not sure if I would get access to domains with those.

EDIT: Could just take MT for the last 5 levels, which is a nice boost to CL.

[Quertus]

Planar Ally does not guarantee a particular ally… and, as an Ur-Priest, you don't have a friendly deity to make that choice… so, how will this work again?

[ChuckBarrington]

Planar Ally does not guarantee a particular ally… and, as an Ur-Priest, you don't have a friendly deity to make that choice… so, how will this work again?

"If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)."

We've got the same alignment, and I can ask for one if I know their name, which I assume would be Knowledge Planes. We both like fire, and really if need be I have access to Gate to go to the plane of fire and find one.

EDIT: Clarified what I'd be using Gate for.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ur Priest into Hierophant is a favourite of mine. But such vestigial wizard casting feels bad and may fall off in usefulness. So I'd say MT.

[Asmotherion]

Technically Full Wizard Casting does equal virtually unlimited Wishes. Either do the Shapechange->Zodar bit or Planar Bind/Gate a couple efreeti. There are more methodes but those two are the most RAW.

Also some of the best Cleric Spells are relatively low level so you're still cool if you can at least cast around 5th level spells as a cleric. Arcane Spellcasting is more of a straight progression by spell level.

[ChuckBarrington]

Ur Priest into Hierophant is a favourite of mine. But such vestigial wizard casting feels bad and may fall off in usefulness. So I'd say MT.

See, wizard casting doesn't matter at this point because wish can duplicate any spell. I may do one 1 level in Hierophant, and then 4 abj champ for the boost to ac.

[ChuckBarrington]

Technically Full Wizard Casting does equal virtually unlimited Wishes. Either do the Shapechange->Zodar bit or Planar Bind/Gate a couple efreeti. There are more methodes but those two are the most RAW.

I certainly would if Fiend Folio were allowed.

[Mr Adventurer]

See, wizard casting doesn't matter at this point because wish can duplicate any spell. I may do one 1 level in Hierophant, and then 4 abj champ for the boost to ac.

3/day, and it costs you the conjuring spell slot too.

EDIT: actually, I reread the Wish ability of Efreet. I can see a DM ruling that it can only be used to grant other people's wishes, since it is worded as "grant wishes", not a simple Wish SLA listing.

[ChuckBarrington]

3/day, and it costs you the conjuring spell slot too.

EDIT: actually, I reread the Wish ability of Efreet. I can see a DM ruling that it can only be used to grant other people's wishes, since it is worded as "grant wishes", not a simple Wish SLA listing.

"1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only)" from their entry. I'm not a genie, so I should be good. If not, ask a party member to wish for me.