My animated shield solution

[Elves]

Make up a new slot, the orbit slot, for things that float around you. Animated shields occupy it and you can make up other magic items that do as well, as well as retrofitting some existing items to. Ioun stones wouldn't fill this slot.

Of course if people are actually enchanting their shield, enchanting their shield as a weapon, and enchanting their shield spikes, they'll probably still choose that, but if the other orbit slot items are good enough it could introduce some variety.

[Uncle Pine]

Make up a new slot, the orbit slot, for things that float around you. Animated shields occupy it and you can make up other magic items that do as well, as well as retrofitting some existing items to. Ioun stones wouldn't fill this slot.

Of course if people are actually enchanting their shield, enchanting their shield as a weapon, and enchanting their shield spikes, they'll probably still choose that, but if the other orbit slot items are good enough it could introduce some variety.

Magic items floating around a character are commonly referred to as "slotless" (in rules terms, they have "no space limitation"). In fact, ioun stones are a common example of this type of items. As they have no limitation, you can have as many slotless equipped at once.

What issue with animated shields are you trying to address by introducing limitations to slotless items that specifically do not apply to the most iconic slotless item? How does this make animated shields better? Does this mean you can't have both an animated shield and an animated weapon because there's only a single orbit slot?

[Kalkra]

Also, there's a spell in Dragon #308 that does this called Shield Companion. Not Sure what you're "solving", but shield bonuses don't stack with one another.

[Elves]

The point is to be a standardization of large orbiting items. It makes animated shields better by nerfing them slightly: instead of getting a shield's benefits for free, you're simply switching it to another slot, at the price of a +2 bonus (which will often still be worth it). It also reduces the visual goofiness of everyone having animated shields: some people will choose something else for their orbit slot.

Slotless items will still exist, but large orbiting items won't be among them.


Does this mean you can't have both an animated shield and an animated weapon because there's only a single orbit slot?

You could probably have both an animated shield and a dancing weapon or a weapon animated by Animate Weapon.

[heavyfuel]

some people will choose something else for their orbit slot.


Something else like what, exactly?

If neither Ion Stones nor Dacing Weapons fall into the orbit slot, what else is there beside the shield

[Elves]

Here was an idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?596974-The-Automudra&p=24123330#post24123330). Dancing Weapon could fit since it can't move away from you, Animate Weapon spell lets it go some distance away so I would still say it shouldn't.

Most would be new items.

Although for one, most orbs could be allowed to orbit rather than being held.

[Zaq]

Just to make it explicit: what problem, specifically, is this solving?

[heavyfuel]

Just to make it explicit: what problem, specifically, is this solving?

Not OP, but I think that Elves - like me - doesn't like that absolutely every mid level character has an Animated shield, since there's no reason not to have. This makes chacters that invested in shields become even less useful than their 2HW counterparts.

However, I don't see this supposed solution solving anything

[Elves]

Just to make it explicit: what problem, specifically, is this solving?

Maybe "an idea that could be a net positive" is the better phrasing.

The upsides include:

1) More visual and build variety
2) Indirect nerf to the Animated property
3) A standardized way to include similar floating slotless items without encouraging endless stacking or making characters look increasingly ridiculous as they acquire an entire solar system of objects around them.
4) The orbiting object is a common fantasy trope that's under-represented in D&D

The simpler animated shield "fix" is to directly nerf it so it's more like a Dancing weapon. This is an alternate fix that stays level instead of going downward, power-wise.

[heavyfuel]

3) A standardized way to include similar floating slotless items

You keep mentioning "similar floating slotless items", but you are yet to mention a single such item (other than animated shields). If they are all new items, then why is this not in the homebrew session?

[Elves]

There are always the custom item rules. It's not exactly homebrewy to apply them.

[Uncle Pine]

Also, there's a spell in Dragon #308 that does this called Shield Companion. Not Sure what you're "solving", but shield bonuses don't stack with one another.
Which is absolutely awesome and better in every way than blowing a +2 bonus on animated, except for the fact that you need a feat or the Dragon type to cast it. As usual, UMD or playing a dragonwrought kobold solves the issue.


The point is to be a standardization of large orbiting items. It makes animated shields better by nerfing them slightly: instead of getting a shield's benefits for free, you're simply switching it to another slot, at the price of a +2 bonus (which will often still be worth it). It also reduces the visual goofiness of everyone having animated shields: some people will choose something else for their orbit slot.
I see no need for such standardization. Moreover, "making X better by nerfing it" is a contradictory statement unless X is an element of the game that is grossly overpowered compared to the other options - something that I don't think applies to animated shields: at 9,150 gp at minimum for a negligible AC boost that still forces a character to endure armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and possibly nonproficiency, an animated shield can be many things but free. In fact, considering how ineffective AC boosts that do not apply to contact AC become at the level animated shields supposedly become commonplace* unless you pour most of your WBL specifically into optimizing AC, most people should and will not buy an animated shield. Especially if equipping an animated shield means you can't make use of other slotless items.
*For example, a CR 11 cloud giant can easily hit a 12th-level character with its +Yes melee attack bonus.


Not OP, but I think that Elves - like me - doesn't like that absolutely every mid level character has an Animated shield, since there's no reason not to have. This makes chacters that invested in shields become even less useful than their 2HW counterparts.
As mentioned above, I think in most cases there's plenty of reasons to avoid wasting gold pieces on an animated shield. There are of course a few, specific exceptions. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10294124&postcount=5)


Maybe "an idea that could be a net positive" is the better phrasing.

The upsides include:

1) More visual and build variety
2) Indirect nerf to the Animated property
3) A standardized way to include similar floating slotless items without encouraging endless stacking or making characters look increasingly ridiculous as they acquire an entire solar system of objects around them.
4) The orbiting object is a common fantasy trope that's under-represented in D&D

The simpler animated shield "fix" is to directly nerf it so it's more like a Dancing weapon. This is an alternate fix that stays level instead of going downward, power-wise.
1) Not necessary: anyone who has no business wielding a shield shouldn't bother buying an animated shield assuming they are aiming for a "build". There's still plenty of flavour reasons one may want to buy an animated shield, but I don't believe they warrant additional restrictions.
2) Depending on what items fall within the "orbit slot", the proposed changes are either a direct and arguably unnecessary nerf to the animated property, or an inconsequential bundle of rules.
3) I agree that too many items rotating around a character can be too much, but having one single slot for such items stretches belief in the opposite direction. Moreover, trying to formulate a definition that will cover all possible combinations of items in a way that is logical seems more than it's worth; as there are already rules for orbiting objects (= they fall in the slotless category and any additional restriction is found in the description of the specific item), I believe it would be easier to specify a hard limit on the number of Automudra a character can have active at a time or to make an ad-hoc DM adjudication when you believe that the line has been crossed - similarly to when someone tries to travel by mounting and dismounting a hundred times in a single round.
4) There are orbiting weapons, shields, coloured stones, spellbooks, and probably a few more. Moreover, every other magical object can be made orbiting by doubling its price, with no RAW limits on how many can be used at the same time. How is the trope under-represented?

[The Glyphstone]

You keep mentioning "similar floating slotless items", but you are yet to mention a single such item (other than animated shields). If they are all new items, then why is this not in the homebrew session?

Ioun stones come to mind. Other than that, most 'slotless' items I can think of don't levitate, they just exist in your pocket or something. Handy Haversacks, Luckstones, Wilding Clasps, and Bags of Holding are all slotless items that tend to pop up regularly, but no one imagines their backpack lazily orbiting them in midair.

[heavyfuel]

As mentioned above, I think in most cases there's plenty of reasons to avoid wasting gold pieces on an animated shield. There are of course a few, specific exceptions. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10294124&postcount=5)

The GP investment for +3 AC (2 from shield, 1 for +1) is ridiculously low compared to other ways of increasing AC. Just over 10'000 gp for a Mithral Heavy Shield with no ACP and 5% ACF (which can be zeroed with little investment). 10k is very little for a mid level character, and almost nothing for a high level one.

Not to mention the AC is nothing compared to the benefit of having a shield for putting magical enchantemnts on.


Ioun stones come to mind.

OP explicitly mentioned Ion Stones not falling into this category, though.

[Elves]

A feycraft mithral heavy shield has no ACP and no ASF so that's an odd argument.

I would say it starts becoming prevalent at late mid/early high levels more than 11th. By 13th level it represents 10% of your WBL, by 15th 5%, by 17th just 0.3%. Nearly every high level character will have a +1 one even if they don't enhance it further. If Touch AC is all you care about, for 7k more you can give it ghost ward (+1 bonus) for +5 to touch AC once it's MV'd up.


3) I agree that too many items rotating around a character can be too much, but having one single slot for such items stretches belief in the opposite direction. Moreover, trying to formulate a definition that will cover all possible combinations of items in a way that is logical seems more than it's worth; as there are already rules for orbiting objects (= they fall in the slotless category and any additional restriction is found in the description of the specific item)

The definition would be simple: sizable floating and/or circling objects that are wed to your person. Specifically, items that designate themselves as filling this slot.

[Mato]

Not OP, but I think that Elves - like me - doesn't like that absolutely every mid level character has an Animated shield, since there's no reason not to have.There is a few, animated does nothing to reduce or ignore armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chances, it doesn't grant proficiency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#animated), and the pricing is logarithmic.

A cheaper solution is to use a buckler. With a couple hundred gold it has no penalties and you don't lose it's shield bonus to hold and use stuff in your hand, such as runestaffs, torches, spell components, and so on. A two-handed character may seem like they would hesitate on using them, but chances are they probably like to charge (-2) and probably use shock trooper (up to -20) and paying a ton of money to still end up with less AC than most commoners isn't ideal. However they can still benefit from the bucklars special abilities, such as soulfire, even if they attacked with both hands anyway. And ironically, the buckler will even grant a higher bonus to AC. A +1 animated (+2) large shield only gives a +3 shield bonus to AC but a +3 buckler gives +4.