What's the deal with Celia?

[Morgana]

I just...really don't quite understand the portrayal of Celia during the whole deal with Roy's corpse? Are we supposed to hate her? Cause she acts in a similar way to characters like Miko narrative wise, constantly getting the party in trouble but refusing to take any accountability and constantly preaching her morals to everyone else. But at the same time I don't think we're supposed to hate her cause she has a romance going on with a main character, and unlike Roy's infactuation with Miko, it's shown to be an actual good and healthy relationship.

Are we supposed to question the morality of our heroes and think she has a point? Cause that comes with it's own set of issues, considering her arguments don't really make sense. She barates Haley for stealing from people who worked hard to get their gold, but that was actually never shown in the comic, and Haley's fortune is shown to come from looting monsters, and aside from some gags early in the comics she never shown any disposition for stealing from people that actually worked hard for their gold. And she barely addresses that the only reason Haley had to kill all those thiefs in the first place was due to her refusal to follow orders from a person who was much more capable than her when it came to adventuring.

[hamishspence]

Are we supposed to question the morality of our heroes and think she has a point?

That's the impression I get from the commentary.


the only reason Haley had to kill all those thiefs in the first place was due to her refusal to follow orders from a person who was much more capable than her when it came to adventuring.

As V said of Miko - "She is not a member of the party, she does not get to bark orders at me."

Celia could say "I am not a member of your party - you don't give me orders."

[Morgana]

Thing is tha in Miko's case, they already had a leader, and even though they were portrayed as bumbling they were not incompetent. Celia displayed a severe lack of understanding on how pretty much anything works, and trusted pretty much anyone that wasn't her teammates.

[factotum]

Celia, to my mind, was the example of what happens when you put an "ordinary person" (at least, as ordinary as a paralegal sylph can be) into an adventurer's shoes. Her horrified reactions to stuff Haley etc. found perfectly normal was meant to show how far outside a normal life an adventurer leads. Miko, on the other hand, was thoroughly familiar with an adventurer's role because she spent most of her life doing pretty much the same thing, so her horror at what the others was doing was at best sanctimonious and at worst hypocritical.

[Morgana]

Isn't that a bit redundant considering Julia's ordeal with the linear guild?

[Resileaf]

Isn't that a bit redundant considering Julia's ordeal with the linear guild?

Eh, Julia is 90% adventurer material. And as Roy explained to Celia, any mortal person on the material plane can always sleep easy knowing there's an afterlife. Celia comes as an outsider in a way that the rules are completely different for her and people like her. An Outsider with different senses, not an adventurer, can't resurrect.

[Squire Doodad]

Isn't that a bit redundant considering Julia's ordeal with the linear guild?

Julia is a low level mage who is in school, but is well aware of the life of the adventurer and how she is probably going to do that in a few years.

Celia is a person who has some inherent magic stuff, but otherwise is very close to someone from our world transplanted into OotSverse: she has permadeath in effect, she doesn't want to kill things, she focuses on her job, family/relationships and schooling moreso than smithing or raiding the countryside, and she really doesn't understand how things work from a "what do I do" standpoint.

[woweedd]

Julia is a low level mage who is in school, but is well aware of the life of the adventurer and how she is probably going to do that in a few years.

Celia is a person who has some inherent magic stuff, but otherwise is very close to someone from our world transplanted into OotSverse: she has permadeath in effect, she doesn't want to kill things, she focuses on her job, family/relationships and schooling moreso than smithing or raiding the countryside, and she really doesn't understand how things work from a "what do I do" standpoint.
Yep. A heavy part of her character centers around the fact that, like us, she's sued to a world where death is permanent, rather then something you fix in any given major city, provided you find the right Cleric and have the cash.

[Aedilred]

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15058416&postcount=477) is vaguely relevant.

[The Pilgrim]

I didn't hate Celia during DStP, and it surprises me that people have so strong opinions on her. Yeah she made some goofs, well, welcome to the Party, like if the members of the Order had never screwed up.

Besides, part of the point of her portrayal was to show that Haley can't lead, so she being a nuisance to Haley was something that needed to be done.

[xroads]

This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15058416&postcount=477) is vaguely relevant.

Wow! After reading that post I feel like I have to comment.

For my two cents, I've never had an issue with Celia. She was an interesting perspective to have during Haley's stint as leader. How exactly would someone who is not an adventurer act when she's forced to travel with adventurers to save someone she loves?

I'm not a fan of Miko. But that's fine. It's hard for a story to develop if it doesn't have antagonists. And Miko served that role very well.

[Forum Explorer]

I think we're supposed to find her annoying, and kind of an idiot, but not too much of one. Like, she's someone who is fine in their own environment and workplace but bringing that attitude to your workplace just makes it hard to get things done while being annoying in her attempts to give 'helpful' advice.

Mind you, she did manage to get Haley to stop moping around Azure City, and correctly pointed out that Belkar is a complete monster. She made some really, really stupid decisions regarding Greysky City. Just on, like, every level. On the other hand, that is partly Haley's fault for not, you know, actually explaining why going there was such a bad idea. I mean, what's so hard about saying, 'the city is run by evil criminals who want me dead. If we go there, we will at best end up in a fight for our lives.'

But then again, part of that arc was to show that Haley is actually a bad leader and how things fell apart without Roy around.

[Morgana]

With Miko it seems to me that people didn't really figure out nuance? Like, they were either saying she was a saint that did nothing wrong or claiming she was an absolute monster and had no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

[HorizonWalker]

It's a disease that makes gluten damage your small intestine.

[Ruck]

The deal with Celia is that she is an air elemental, currently in law school and in a relationship with Roy Greenhilt.


constantly getting the party in trouble but refusing to take any accountability and constantly preaching her morals to everyone else.

But to take your post seriously, I have had similar feeling about Celia. Specifically, that she knows she's not an adventurer and not cut out for this life, but still thinks she knows better than Haley; that she preaches pacifism but still wants people to do violence on her behalf; and that she was derelict in her duties in representing Haley's interests in negotiating with the Thieves' Guild.

[woweedd]

The deal with Celia is that she is an air elemental, currently in law school and in a relationship with Roy Greenhilt.



But to take your post seriously, I have had similar feeling about Celia. Specifically, that she knows she's not an adventurer and not cut out for this life, but still thinks she knows better than Haley; that she preaches pacifism but still wants people to do violence on her behalf; and that she was derelict in her duties in representing Haley's interests in negotiating with the Thieves' Guild.
I'll admit: Maybe this is the Lawful part of me talking, but I kinda fail to have sympathy for Haley being angry one of her party members strole from her, given, ya know...Her being her. and I think at least some portion of her complaints were fairly reasonable: The fact that the Order puts up with an actual serial killer is an issue. I'm on Haley's side of that issue, but only because, you know, he's pretty much the only ally she has left. While i'll acknowledge the naivete was kinda irritating, and the hypicsorcy...Well, if I was gonna have a problem with that, it'd be when she started dating someone whose literal title is "Fighter". She's pretty clearly of the "I won't use violence personally, but I can't control other people" school, which...Yeah, that is a flaw, but, we all have them. Plus, the Greysky City thing was her only real majorly-bad decision, and...Well, that's partly on Haley for being so damn cryptic about WHY they shouldn't go there. Understandable, given her past, but "there are people there who want me, specifically, dead" would probably have worked. Again, we all have our flaws: One of the points of the ar is that, without Roy around, none of the Order are really suited for leadership, Haley included.

[snowblizz]

I just...really don't quite understand the portrayal of Celia during the whole deal with Roy's corpse? Are we supposed to hate her?
No. Celia represents the "normla person view". The one where automatically murderhoboing other sentient creatures isn't the go to option.

She doesn't quite know what is going on, and she says as much. We should see it for the insight into ourselves she provides. A OOTS person and a D&D player have a rather skewed viewpoint of the world. Sure it works, but it's alien to most people.


I'll admit: Maybe this is the Lawful part of me talking, but I kinda fail to have sympathy for Haley being angry one of her party members strole from her, given, ya know...Her being her. and I think at least some portion of her complaints were fairly reasonable: The fact that the Order puts up with an actual serial killer is an issue. I'm on Haley's side of that issue, but only because, you know, he's pretty much the only ally she has left. While i'll acknowledge the naivete was kinda irritating, and the hypicsorcy...Well, if I was gonna have a problem with that, it'd be when she started dating someone whose literal title is "Fighter". She's pretty clearly of the "I won't use violence personally, but I can't control other people" school, which...Yeah, that is a flaw, but, we all have them. Plus, the Greysky City thing was her only real majorly-bad decision, and...Well, that's partly on Haley for being so damn cryptic about WHY they shouldn't go there. Understandable, given her past, but "there are people there who want me, specifically, dead" would probably have worked. Again, we all have our flaws: One of the points of the ar is that, without Roy around, none of the Order are really suited for leadership, Haley included.

And this largely how the Giant describes Celia vs Haley in the book commentary. Haley hasn't gotten through her issues yet. She is on the right path, but at the beginning of that. Not telling people anything more than strictly necessary at a time is not always a good idea. Had Haley come out and stated why they shouldn't go to Greysky Celia would have gone with that. It's the unthrustworthy thief not wanting to solve the Roy problem ASAP that prompts Celia to make a very bad decision. Unlike us though Celia doesn't know much of what goes on. She hasn't been on the mortal planes much, she doesn't understand "the human condition". Had she been briefed on Greysky City she would not have gone there.

[Aedilred]

With Miko it seems to me that people didn't really figure out nuance? Like, they were either saying she was a saint that did nothing wrong or claiming she was an absolute monster and had no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

As Rich has said elsewhere, part of the thing about Miko in retrospect is that we're able to view her from a distance and see her whole arc before forming a lasting opinion. At the time people were living through it, not knowing how Miko's story would end up or even where it was going, over a period of months or years, opinions on her were a lot stronger and a lot more negative than they are now. The same probably goes for Celia.

I don't think Celia is a particularly well-drawn character in her arc with Haley and Belkar, just because of the infuriating combination of great naivete and refusal to adjust her viewpoint. As a character, she doesn't entirely convince (and getting Grubwiggler involved was just unjustifiably stupid). She seems to exist mostly as a brake on plot resolution by insisting on things being done in a way that's slower, harder, and less likely to lead to a satisfactory outcome, which is frustrating for the characters and frustrating for the reader.

But maybe that's part of the point too. After all, there's the point made by Roy at some point (and thrown back at him by vampire Durkon) that he refuses to kill someone just because it's a bit easier than talking to them. Celia's presence serves to remind us that Good is about doing things the right way rather than the easy way, and forces Haley, as the decision-maker between Celia on one shoulder and Belkar on the other, to actually make those choices. And yeah, it's annoying, but doing the right thing often is.

As above, there's perhaps not actually that much difference in outlook and attitude between Celia and Roy and Durkon, who are usually much less annoying on the page. Roy and Durkon are a bit more practical and worldly but I doubt they'd disagree with too many of the things Celia actually said or did (aside from Grubwiggler, obviously). The reason why Celia is annoying where Roy and Durkon aren't is partly because Roy in particular is a main character with much more development time and therefore gets more of the benefit of the doubt from the reader, but also because of the character dynamic. Roy is in a leadership role and a position of authority so he doesn't have to harp on all the time, he can just make the decision, and he has the natural authority that everyone else falls in line. Durkon generally agrees with Roy's viewpoint so doesn't often have to speak up about alignment-based issues. The only major disagreement between the two that I can recall is over Miko.

Celia on the other hand has to try to convince Haley of everything, so she's constantly in her (and our) ear, and Haley isn't a good enough party leader to shut it down.

[KorvinStarmast]

Celia on the other hand has to try to convince Haley of everything, so she's constantly in her (and our) ear, and Haley isn't a good enough party leader to shut it down.
I am going to take a different view on Celia (who is written as annoying, to be sure) because I like that she attempted to resolve the conflict via non combat means and did. (But it took Hank being open to the idea in the first place; we do see in the OotPCs that Haley and Hank had a kind of mutual respect, and she had agreed with him not to expose his skimming off the top ...)

Why it aggrivates Haley hasn't to do with solving the problem. Why it aggrivates Haley so much is that is harms her treasure hoarding program that she is keeping a secret from everyone .... but Celia has already aggrivated her on a variety of other matters with her not at all subtle "Jimminy Cricket" in your face conscience act.

Overall, I like Celia even though Rich wrote her as an annoying personality.
Plus, Roy needs a love interest. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html)
(With all of the grief and stress Roy has/had up to that point, I really liked that strip for its joyful tone)

[CriticalFailure]

I think people are a bit unfair in acting like it's totally unreasonable for Celia not to obey whatever Haley wants to do without having the reasons for it. Celia is a grown up and not part of the Order; "because I said so" isn't an argument she has any reason to respect.

[Keltest]

I think people are a bit unfair in acting like it's totally unreasonable for Celia not to obey whatever Haley wants to do without having the reasons for it. Celia is a grown up and not part of the Order; "because I said so" isn't an argument she has any reason to respect.

When somebody is trying to shoot arrows or various other deadly things at you and its coming from your leader, "because I said so" is absolutely an argument you should respect. To do otherwise is equivalent to telling somebody, to their face, that you think they suck at their job and that you think you could do better. And that attitude is pretty consistent with Celia's other interactions with Haley, and is generally why she gets so much ire, both in comic and out.

[hamishspence]

From Celia's perspective, Haley is not "her leader" anyway - she's her temporary associate.

[Keltest]

From Celia's perspective, Haley is not "her leader" anyway - she's her temporary associate.

Who she feels comfortable with assigning primary responsibility for getting Roy resurrected, which is what she wants to see happen. Celia cant have it both ways. If she's traveling with an adventuring party, then the adventuring party has authority in all issues pertaining to adventuring. Are you familiar with the adage "An explosives expert at a dead sprint outranks everybody"? Its the same idea here.

[hamishspence]

If she's traveling with an adventuring party, then the adventuring party has authority in all issues pertaining to adventuring.



Celia's not out to adventure though - she's out to get Roy resurrected. From her perspective, Haley had no authority to forbid her from going to Greysky City.

[Keltest]

Celia's not out to adventure though - she's out to get Roy resurrected. From her perspective, Haley had no authority to forbid her from going to Greysky City.

She delegated that responsibility to Haley. She in fact specifically went out of her way to make sure that Haley was involved and in charge. She didn't end up in that group by chance, it was a conscious and deliberate decision on her part to travel with the group that she did. Even if she somehow started out under the mistaken impression that it would be similar to shopping for a new cloak (which she could be forgiven for), the goblin checkpoint should have disabused her of the notion that they could just pop out for a quick shopping trip with no other complications.

[Schroeswald]

When somebody is trying to shoot arrows or various other deadly things at you and its coming from your leader, "because I said so" is absolutely an argument you should respect. To do otherwise is equivalent to telling somebody, to their face, that you think they suck at their job and that you think you could do better. And that attitude is pretty consistent with Celia's other interactions with Haley, and is generally why she gets so much ire, both in comic and out.

The because I said so thing is for going to Greysky City, where because I said so is not at all a valid argument, when you have a quest to do with an adventurer saying that you shouldn’t cause it’s dangerous is a ridiculous thing to expect someone to follow.

[The Pilgrim]

It may be worth to remind that getting out of Azure City to have Roy resurrected, was Celia's initiative in the first place. Haley had been sitting in Azure City's ruins playing Resistance Leader for months with no intenton to leave. Celia was the one that forced her out of her confort zone.

So, as far as Celia is concerned, it was herself, not Haley, who held Roy's better interests in mind.

[Darth Paul]

Who she feels comfortable with assigning primary responsibility for getting Roy resurrected, which is what she wants to see happen. Celia cant have it both ways. If she's traveling with an adventuring party, then the adventuring party has authority in all issues pertaining to adventuring. Are you familiar with the adage "An explosives expert at a dead sprint outranks everybody"? Its the same idea here.

Except that, as was mnetioned obliquely, the expert in this case wasn't sprinting, she was ambling vaguely onwards. And when presented the option of Greysky City, she shot it down with no explanation other than, "It's a bad idea, trust me." Except that trust is one thing that has to be earned and has to be mutual, and at that point neither side had any basis for trust.
Haley failing to explain any reason why the city was to be avoided, but still expecting to be obeyed, was unreasonable. Going behind your leader's back and following your own path in the absence of convincing reasons is exactly the sort of thing Haley would do, unless she has a leader she trusts- like Roy. Haley tried to imitate Roy's leadership style but without forming the basis of trust with Celia.

[Keltest]

Trust is implicit when you recruit somebody for a task, at least to the point where you trust in their competency. If you invite somebody along for their skills and expertise, you don't ignore them when they say "don't do that".

[CriticalFailure]

But Haley isn't Celia's leader and Celia has no reason to blindly obey her. Yes, readers know that Haley had a good reason for wanting to avoid Greysky, but Celia didn't because Haley didn't explain anything, she just gave orders and expected her to obey despite her not having a reason to do so. From Celia's perspective, Haley has been sitting around in Azure City for a while not actually doing anything to get Roy resurrected until she came along and got things moving. She doesn't have any reason to take her word on it.

[Rollin]

Haley, as the decision-maker between Celia on one shoulder and Belkar on the other

This image is especially clever because it could actually happen.

[hamishspence]

Trust is implicit when you recruit somebody for a task, at least to the point where you trust in their competency. If you invite somebody along for their skills and expertise, you don't ignore them when they say "don't do that".

Yes - Celia ignored Haley's advice (which is how the Don't Split The Party commentary put it) - she did not disobey Haley's orders - because Haley's never been Celia's "commander" in the first place.

[Keltest]

But Haley isn't Celia's leader and Celia has no reason to blindly obey her. Yes, readers know that Haley had a good reason for wanting to avoid Greysky, but Celia didn't because Haley didn't explain anything, she just gave orders and expected her to obey despite her not having a reason to do so. From Celia's perspective, Haley has been sitting around in Azure City for a while not actually doing anything to get Roy resurrected until she came along and got things moving. She doesn't have any reason to take her word on it.

Unless youre trying to suggest that Celia though that Haley was deliberately trying to avoid having Roy resurrected, that's a pretty thin excuse. Furthermore, Haley did explain why she thought going was a bad idea, at least in part. "Its a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." She didn't just say "no, now shut up." Celia was just blatantly choosing to ignore Haley's judgment here.

[HorizonWalker]

Unless youre trying to suggest that Celia though that Haley was deliberately trying to avoid having Roy resurrected, that's a pretty thin excuse. Furthermore, Haley did explain why she thought going was a bad idea, at least in part. "Its a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." She didn't just say "no, now shut up." Celia was just blatantly choosing to ignore Haley's judgment here.

Haley, as far as Celia knew at the time, is the sort of person who kills people for having gold in their pockets.

[Keltest]

Haley, as far as Celia knew at the time, is the sort of person who kills people for having gold in their pockets.

And given her perceptions of Haley, that should be alarming, not comforting. She considers Haley a friend on a personal level, but she is very much not OK with what she regularly does while adventuring, and makes no secret of it.

[Schroeswald]

And given her perceptions of Haley, that should be alarming, not comforting. She considers Haley a friend on a personal level, but she is very much not OK with what she regularly does while adventuring, and makes no secret of it.

Exactly. And that’s why she has no reason to listen to what Haley says.

[woweedd]

I think it's pretty clear Haley should have explained the whole "people there want me, specifically, dead". Celia may well have been willing to risk entering a hive of crime to get Roy resurrected, but not if she knew there are people there who would want to kill Haley specifically. I mean, one of the major points of DSTP is that Haley is not a good leader. Both of them screwed up on this one.

[Keltest]

Exactly. And that’s why she has no reason to listen to what Haley says.

Theres no emoji for a completely baffled face, so just imagine I used one here.

Your argument is that because Haley said that Greysky was full of people that Celia perceived to be like Haley in ways that Celia did not approve of, that Celia should do the opposite of what Haley says?

And this is supposed to make Celia look more reasonable?

I legitimately don't understand the point youre trying to make here. No, Celia isn't literally contractually obligated to listen to Haley, but that doesn't mean it isn't smart to do so, and disrespectful to ignore her expertise and the authority derived from it.

[The Pilgrim]

When Celia was invoked into Azure City, her first impression of Haley was than of a supposedly seasoned adventurer who:
- Couldn't notice she had been under the effect of an abjuration area-effect spell for months.
- Couldn't get her priorities right as she was fooling around playing Rebel Leader instead of getting Roy resurrected.
- Couldn't even unify the pitiful Resistance under an unified command. Something that Celia herself proceeded to do.

So, why should Celia trust Haley in the field of making decisions?

[hamishspence]

And before that, Celia's primary experience of Haley was this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html

[Schroeswald]

Theres no emoji for a completely baffled face, so just imagine I used one here.

Your argument is that because Haley said that Greysky was full of people that Celia perceived to be like Haley in ways that Celia did not approve of, that Celia should do the opposite of what Haley says?

And this is supposed to make Celia look more reasonable?

I legitimately don't understand the point youre trying to make here. No, Celia isn't literally contractually obligated to listen to Haley, but that doesn't mean it isn't smart to do so, and disrespectful to ignore her expertise and the authority derived from it.

To Celia Haley shouldn’t be trusted as a leader because she’s the sort who kills people for having gold in their pockets, therefore her advice shouldn’t be completely trusted, while her reasoning isn’t great it is understandable and makes sense for her character.

[Keltest]

To Celia Haley shouldn’t be trusted as a leader because she’s the sort who kills people for having gold in their pockets, therefore her advice shouldn’t be completely trusted, while her reasoning isn’t great it is understandable and makes sense for her character.

I disagree. That isn't understandable at all. Or rather, its basic contrarianism, which I can recognize but not understand why anybody would think its a good idea.

[hamishspence]

Trusting her own judgement over Haley's was, in this particular case, a mistake - but good people can make mistakes.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, yeah. Haley is a professional criminal. Not a job that leads to being trusted. Roy doesn't really trust her until the end of DSTP, and he's spent a lot more time with her.

[Morgana]

I honestly can't grasp the leap in logic it would take to completely ignore when someone says a place is dangerous and where people get killed, when you're so devoid of experience to have any insight of your own on it. Especially given that Haley is a trusted friend of Roy, and has no reason to have nothing but his best interest in mind.

Plus her judgemental view on Haley is one based on extreme prejudice, that she keeps all the way through their adventure even when Haley was actively trying to save her

And also, when you distrust someone, you normally try to be careful and expect tje worst. Not think for some reason Haley would lie about a place being dangerous, especially when you have no evidence that points to otherwise.

[The Pilgrim]

One of the themes of DStP was how Roy was needed as a Leader, as reinforced by the fact that both Haley and Elan failed to assume the responsibility and allowed the first NPC around to take the important decissions. (Celia in the case of Haley, Hinjo and later Therkla in the case of Elan).

If we focus on Haley's part, the mind behind all the big decissions was Celia. She was the one who took the decission of moving out of Azure's ruins. She was the one who took the decission of moving into Greysky City. And she was the one who took the decission to broke a deal with Hank and ally with the Thieves. And Haley followed suit in all three instances. Some of those decissions were poor, but Haley never took the steps to assert her leadership or even accept it ("I do not take responsibility for other people's actions. Only for mine, and even that is a recent development").

So, Celia acting the way she acted? Totally logical. You are out there with a midget psycho murderer and a thief that neglects to assume redponsibility. Someone had to do it, and the only remaining person capable of doing so around Celia was herself. And it was not an unprecedented occurrence as Celia did already took charge when she acted as the lead of the legal defense of the Order at their Trial in Azure City.

[hamishspence]

What Celia was probably thinking at the time was

"Maybe there is danger - but exposing myself to danger in the hope of restoring Roy, is my decision to make".

[Morgana]

Moving into a place the only thing you know about is that someone that has no reason to lie about this particular information said "it's dangerous and will get you killed", in the hopes of finding a high level cleric, is not perfectly logical.

[Keltest]

One of the themes of DStP was how Roy was needed as a Leader, as reinforced by the fact that both Haley and Elan failed to assume the responsibility and allowed the first NPC around to take the important decissions. (Celia in the case of Haley, Hinjo and later Therkla in the case of Elan).

If we focus on Haley's part, the mind behind all the big decissions was Celia. She was the one who took the decission of moving out of Azure's ruins. She was the one who took the decission of moving into Greysky City. And she was the one who took the decission to broke a deal with Hank and ally with the Thieves. And Haley followed suit in all three instances. Some of those decissions were poor, but Haley never took the steps to assert her leadership or even accept it ("I do not take responsibility for other people's actions. Only for mine, and even that is a recent development".

So, Celia acting the way she acted? Totally logical. You are out there with a midget murdering psycho and a thief that neglects to assumr redponsibility. Someone had to do it, and the only remaining person capable to do so around Celia was herself.

Its not the "Celia making her own decisions" part that is terribly controversial so much as "She did it by choosing to do something dumb that she had good reason to know was dumb." part. And the fact that she felt the need to sneak into town instead of simply stepping up and asserting herself like she did the last few times she wanted to motivate Haley to do something suggests that she knew that this was probably not a smart thing.

[hamishspence]

She does apologise to Haley. And Haley acknowledges that she herself has done exactly the same thing in the past:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html

[Morgana]

You're just missing the context that Haley only accepts the apology cause she didn't realize yet that they lost Roy's corpse, that's literally the joke

[Rogar Demonblud]

Moving into a place the only thing you know about is that someone that has no reason to lie about this particular information said "it's dangerous and will get you killed", in the hopes of finding a high level cleric, is not perfectly logical.

Haley's entire deal is that she lies about everything. Especially when she doesn't need to. Again, not someone you should trust.

[Forum Explorer]

Trust is implicit when you recruit somebody for a task, at least to the point where you trust in their competency. If you invite somebody along for their skills and expertise, you don't ignore them when they say "don't do that".

She didn't recruit Haley though, she gave Haley an ultimatum. 'I'm taking Roy with me to get resurrected. Either come with me and help, or stay behind by yourself.'

Besides until then, she was batting 10/10 for decisions made.

-Correctly got Haley out of Azure City
-Correctly realized they were under a spell
-Correctly unified the Resistance
-Correctly realized that Belkar was a problem who needed to be controlled.
-Correctly avoided the checkpoint with minimal casualties

Then she hit Greysky and started making really dumb decisions. I mean, even ignoring entering the city itself, she should, as a lawyer, know to read the entire contract before agreeing, even verbally, to anything. Like imagine if she was more explicit with Grubwiggler. "Hi, I'm looking for a resurrection spell for my friend here."

"Oh, I'm sorry, I create bone golems here. You'll want a cleric. You can find them at such and such location."

"Thanks, sorry for the inconvenience."

In all honestly, she even had a chance to pull the whole thing off if she hadn't been so dumb about Grubwiggler. It's not like she has a bounty on her head, and the Clerics of Loki might have price gouged her horribly, but they likely would've cast the spell regardless.


Moving into a place the only thing you know about is that someone that has no reason to lie about this particular information said "it's dangerous and will get you killed", in the hopes of finding a high level cleric, is not perfectly logical.

She can fly and cast illusions. It's not unreasonable to expect her to be able to escape most dangers. Her stupidity was most extreme in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0574.html) strip, followed closely by the next one where she doesn't explicitly ask for a raise dead spell.

[Morgana]

It's not smart to not trust someone when they tell you something is dangerous when you yourself has no idea if that is the case or not. Doing the opposite of everything you're told by someone cause they tend to lie is not a good idea at all. And then when she does have ample evidence that the town is shady, as a dude openly talks about murdering his own brother(something that for some reason doesn't make her judgmental of him, even though she get's angry for much lesser things Haley does) she not for once second even considers Haley was right.

[Keltest]

It's not smart to not trust someone when they tell you something is dangerous when you yourself has no idea if that is the case or not. Doing the opposite of everything you're told by someone cause they tend to lie is not a good idea at all

Exactly. Haley lying is a good reason not to take what she says at face value, but its not a good reason by itself to doubt her judgment, and certainly not a good reason to assume that the opposite of what she says must be correct.

[Forum Explorer]

Its not the "Celia making her own decisions" part that is terribly controversial so much as "She did it by choosing to do something dumb that she had good reason to know was dumb." part. And the fact that she felt the need to sneak into town instead of simply stepping up and asserting herself like she did the last few times she wanted to motivate Haley to do something suggests that she knew that this was probably not a smart thing.

She tried to get Haley to explain why, repeatedly, only for Haley to shut her down and tell her nothing. And in Celia's defense, they have been fighting monsters as they traveled, so why is a city so much scarier? Particularly when they made it through Azure City just fine, a place occupied by a hostile army.

[Morgana]

She did explain why, she said that it was a place where people with money get killed. And they didn't killed monsters, Haley and Belkar did, the people who weren't going with her to the town. Also, she is extremely against violence, so why would she want to go to a possible dangerous place that she has no evidence to support that will even have a cleric capable of reviving Roy? Even if we accept that she thinks the city isn't any more dangerous than the party can handle, if she is supposed to be the common pacifist person of the party why would she want to go to a possible dangerous place for basically no payoff?? And much less alone, when she can't fight back?

[Keltest]

She tried to get Haley to explain why, repeatedly, only for Haley to shut her down and tell her nothing. And in Celia's defense, they have been fighting monsters as they traveled, so why is a city so much scarier? Particularly when they made it through Azure City just fine, a place occupied by a hostile army.

Haley told her it was dangerous, that people would attack them and try and take their stuff. How much more detail does she need? Even if Celia isn't concerned, the fact that Haley, who knows a lot more about combat than Celia does, is concerned should have factored into her decision making.

[Forum Explorer]

Haley told her it was dangerous, that people would attack them and try and take their stuff. How much more detail does she need? Even if Celia isn't concerned, the fact that Haley, who knows a lot more about combat than Celia does, is concerned should have factored into her decision making.

An explanation that actually explains how a city, a place that implies some level of order considering all the people who live there, is so dangerous?

Should it have been factored in? Oh, yes, definitely. Celia certainly made the wrong decision. But Haley communicated badly as well, and considering Haley is a person who is so obsessed with money that she was willing to be taken prisoner in order to get a free trip to Azure City, and once literally lost her ability to speak when her treasure was destroyed, well she's not exactly a trustworthy person. After all, as far as Celia knows, Haley just doesn't want to go to Greysky simply because it would involve paying more money for the raise dead spell.

[Keltest]

An explanation that actually explains how a city, a place that implies some level of order considering all the people who live there, is so dangerous?

Should it have been factored in? Oh, yes, definitely. Celia certainly made the wrong decision. But Haley communicated badly as well, and considering Haley is a person who is so obsessed with money that she was willing to be taken prisoner in order to get a free trip to Azure City, and once literally lost her ability to speak when her treasure was destroyed, well she's not exactly a trustworthy person. After all, as far as Celia knows, Haley just doesn't want to go to Greysky simply because it would involve paying more money for the raise dead spell.

Its dangerous there because there are people who will attack them and try and take their stuff. Haley even explicitly says this. What is confusing about this? They will be attacked if they go to Greysky. There isn't a lot of room for uncertainty there.

[Morgana]

Why would that need to be explained when they literally just left a city where everybody in it wanted to kill them?

[hamishspence]

"There exist within this city, people who will attack strangers and take their stuff" is true for almost every city in the cosmos, except the Upper Planes.

A certain amount of danger, is unavoidable.

Celia believed that the risks, were outweighed by the importance of getting Roy resurrected.

[Resileaf]

I always read it as Celia deciding to take initiative because she had seen Haley being very indecisive in the past, first in Azure City, then with concerns to Belkar, who openly murdered an innocent person with no repercussions (not counting the Oracle, since that one was forgotten). She figured the danger in Greysky City couldn't be that bad, and was herself blinded by her desire to see Roy resurrected to consider that Haley's reluctance was founded on more than "there are bad people here".

[Morgana]

Except there was no evidence that anyone in the city could revive him, besides, if Haley specifically states that it should be easily inferable that this was a city that was more dangerous than most

[Resileaf]

Except there was no evidence that anyone in the city could revive him, besides, if Haley specifically states that it should be easily inferable that this was a city that was more dangerous than most

Which is why she states in her monologue "if there's even a chance of this working, I'll do it". Because she believes that the odds are in her favor.

[woweedd]

I acknowledge that mistakes were made, on both ends. While I acknowledge Celia being annoying to some, I don't dislike her anymore then I dislike Elan, who i'd argue is CONSIDERABLY more so. Plus, she's never accidentally committed mass murder.

[Morgana]

Well, but unlike Celia, when V used familicide that actually kickstarted a lot of character develop, growth and redemption. While Celia never really changes, and stays a static character all throughout, same goes for Elan in term of character development. And even Elan at it's worse only blew up the gate, something that it's hard to determine if that was for better or worse in the long run, and at the time there was nothing that would let them know it was stopping the whole reality from being destroyed by the Snarl. The problem isn't characters making mistakes, but rather how those mistakes are framed and how they deal with the consequences and grow as people as a result, And also the function those mistakes serve narrative wise.

[Resileaf]

Well, but unlike Celia, when V used familicide that actually kickstarted a lot of character develop, growth and redemption. While Celia never really changes, and stays a static character all throughout, same goes for Elan in term of character development. And even Elan at it's worse only blew up the gate, something that it's hard to determine if that was for better or worse in the long run, and at the time there was nothing that would let them know it was stopping the whole reality from being destroyed by the Snarl. The problem isn't characters making mistakes, but rather how those mistakes are framed and how they deal with the consequences and grow as people as a result, And also the function those mistakes serve narrative wise.

And comparatively, Celia's actions have been rather little in the 'world-shaking' department. In fact, most of her bad actions have solely been a downside for Haley alone, whereas her good actions have done nothing but good for the entire order (particularly kickstarting the 'resurrecting Roy' arc).

[Morgana]

That's not really the point though, mistakes aren't a bad thing narrative wise, the problem is how the story portrays those mistakes and their consequences. Celia never has to grow and change as a result of her mistakes, she barely even acknowledges that she did anything wrong, and none of the other characters preached their virtues while sitting in a book's worth of subplot that was ultimately all their fault(besides Miko).

[KorvinStarmast]

And even Elan at it's worse only blew up the gate, something that it's hard to determine if that was for better or worse in the long run, He has to do that or there's no book 2 - Miko gets sent to bring the Order to Shojo. :smallcool: And no book 3, etc.


That's not really the point though, mistakes aren't a bad thing narrative wise, the problem is how the story portrays those mistakes and their consequences. Celia never has to grow and change as a result of her mistakes, she barely even acknowledges that she did anything wrong, and none of the other characters preached their virtues while sitting in a book's worth of subplot that was ultimately all their fault(besides Miko). Celia's a static character, whose elemental attack is electricity. :smallbiggrin: Someone mentioned static in terms of her character development, and I think that's a fair assessment. Hence, Haley's dismissal of her was probably well received by most OoTS fans.
You are an annoying twit who doesn't know as much as she thinks she does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)

[woweedd]

Well, but unlike Celia, when V used familicide that actually kickstarted a lot of character develop, growth and redemption. While Celia never really changes, and stays a static character all throughout, same goes for Elan in term of character development. And even Elan at it's worse only blew up the gate, something that it's hard to determine if that was for better or worse in the long run, and at the time there was nothing that would let them know it was stopping the whole reality from being destroyed by the Snarl. The problem isn't characters making mistakes, but rather how those mistakes are framed and how they deal with the consequences and grow as people as a result, And also the function those mistakes serve narrative wise.
I was referring to Elan as having accidentally committed mass murder. V was INTENTIONALLY doing so. And I think it's clear Celia was a case of a device/foil character: Someone on the opposite end of the spectrum from Belkar, just as lacking in Wisdom, and just as hard for Haley to deal with.

[CriticalFailure]

I think people have a tendency to find any character that ever contradicts protagonists to be annoying.

[Sam K]

I think Celia, as annoying as she is, raises several interesting perspectives.

1. The perspective of a civilian caught in a covert operation. I have always liked comparing (good aligned) adventurers to the navy seals or SAS: we know they exist, we know their job is essentially killing people and blowing things up and that they are very good at it, {scrubbed}. But if we were forced to tag along for a few weeks in the field, we would probably find that it's difficult to deal with some of the things they have to do. Especially if you consider that the people being killed are actually representatives of the lawful authority in the region you're operating. Murderhoboing people for loot and XP doesn't come naturally to everyone, even if they're "evil" (and Evil) people.

2. The perspective of a supernatural creature as something other than a quest giver or a container of XP and loot. Magical creatures just don't get much screen space for character development. They either die to the protagonists, kill the protagonists, or give the protagonists quests or advice. I think it's at least slightly interesting idea that a creature that flies and shoots lightning at will may actually have other desires than flying out of melee range and shooting lightning bolts at its enemies. Though I admit this perspective would have been a lot more interesting if there had been some fallout between Roy and Celia over the whole thing. But yeah, Celia doesn't have wisdom, she can probably blame that ginger and the devilishly handsome halfling for everything!

3. The perspective of someone understanding what their partner actually DOES at work all day. More comic relief, but I do chuckle at the idea of Roy going "Well honey, what did you think 'professional serial killer for a good cause' actually MEANS?"

4. The perspective of a vapid girl realizing that being pale and skinny, and having good intentions and high charisma, doesn't actually solve all of life's problems. Ok, I'll quit now...

[CriticalFailure]

Did anyone else think it was annoying that Haley didn’t take the time to effectively communicate during that entire arc?

[woweedd]

I think Celia, as annoying as she is, raises several interesting perspectives.

1. The perspective of a civilian caught in a covert operation. I have always liked comparing (good aligned) adventurers to the navy seals or SAS: we know they exist, we know their job is essentially killing people and blowing things up and that they are very good at it, {scrub the post, scrub the quote}. But if we were forced to tag along for a few weeks in the field, we would probably find that it's difficult to deal with some of the things they have to do. Especially if you consider that the people being killed are actually representatives of the lawful authority in the region you're operating. Murderhoboing people for loot and XP doesn't come naturally to everyone, even if they're "evil" (and Evil) people.

2. The perspective of a supernatural creature as something other than a quest giver or a container of XP and loot. Magical creatures just don't get much screen space for character development. They either die to the protagonists, kill the protagonists, or give the protagonists quests or advice. I think it's at least slightly interesting idea that a creature that flies and shoots lightning at will may actually have other desires than flying out of melee range and shooting lightning bolts at its enemies. Though I admit this perspective would have been a lot more interesting if there had been some fallout between Roy and Celia over the whole thing. But yeah, Celia doesn't have wisdom, she can probably blame that ginger and the devilishly handsome halfling for everything!

3. The perspective of someone understanding what their partner actually DOES at work all day. More comic relief, but I do chuckle at the idea of Roy going "Well honey, what did you think 'professional serial killer for a good cause' actually MEANS?"

4. The perspective of a vapid girl realizing that being pale and skinny, and having good intentions and high charisma, doesn't actually solve all of life's problems. Ok, I'll quit now...
Yeah. I mean, I noted earlier. Celia's hypocrisy, in regards to other people doing violence even if she won't, was pretty clear when she started dating a dude whose job title is "Fighter".

[Forum Explorer]

Its dangerous there because there are people who will attack them and try and take their stuff. Haley even explicitly says this. What is confusing about this? They will be attacked if they go to Greysky. There isn't a lot of room for uncertainty there.

Which doesn't make sense. If people were attacked every time they went to Greysky, there wouldn't be any possibility to trade there, and a city cannot exist without people coming in to sell their products there.

And explicitly, Celia was right. She was able to get to Grubwiggler without any problems, even make a deal with Grubwiggler without any problems. She made the wrong deal as it were, but hey.


Why would that need to be explained when they literally just left a city where everybody in it wanted to kill them?

There's a difference between 'a hostile army is occupying this city' vs 'this city is dangerous'. One is a clear statement and reason, the other a vague description.


That's not really the point though, mistakes aren't a bad thing narrative wise, the problem is how the story portrays those mistakes and their consequences. Celia never has to grow and change as a result of her mistakes, she barely even acknowledges that she did anything wrong, and none of the other characters preached their virtues while sitting in a book's worth of subplot that was ultimately all their fault(besides Miko).

Because she's ultimately a minor character who simply has very little at stake in the plot. Her motivation was to get Roy resurrected, and that's it. She doesn't even have any stakes in the world being destroyed considering she lives on a different plane of existence. Her purpose was to provide a new perspective (of a non-adventurer), and to prompt character development in other characters, namely Belkar and Haley.

She does have some character development, in getting a first hand taste of violence and adventuring, but that only makes things worse between her and Haley. And it is minor character development. Before we can really get an idea on how Celia would change from that, she leaves the story, until the epilogue maybe.

[KorvinStarmast]

Did anyone else think it was annoying that Haley didn’t take the time to effectively communicate during that entire arc? It was consistent with her character from about strip 1. All her "lost of speech / aphasia" phase represented was that problem turned up to 11.

[Rogar Demonblud]

To be fair to Celia, she did admit before she left that she didn't understand pretty much anything that Haley did. And to be really honest, adventurers themselves are pretty despicable people by modern standards.


Did anyone else think it was annoying that Haley didn’t take the time to effectively communicate during that entire arc?

Not communicating with anyone until absolutely forced to (her feelings for Elan, the situation with her Dad, etc) is her main character beat. If there's a way for Haley to screw up the story by not communicating, she'll take it.

[The Pilgrim]

Its dangerous there because there are people who will attack them and try and take their stuff. Haley even explicitly says this. What is confusing about this? They will be attacked if they go to Greysky. There isn't a lot of room for uncertainty there.

They would be attacked also if they travel trough the wilderness. At least one random encounter is certain. Greysky city was dangerous, but it was only specially dangerous for Haley, for reasons Haley didn't share with Celia. "This is a dangerous place because it's full of evil people" is a very different deal than "This place is dangerous because it's full of evil people who want to kill me specifically".

[CriticalFailure]

I know and I enjoy reading about how that aspect of her character develops. But it seems weird to me when people say “it’s so annoying that this npc doesn’t go along with whatever the untrusting character who’s terrible at communicating says.”

[Morgana]

I don't think how anything can be clearer than "It's dangerous and there are people there that will kill anyone with money". Also, keep in mind that she doesn't decide to book out of there even after learning that this is a city where people casually admit to murdering their own brother to a complete stranger

[Resileaf]

I don't think how anything can be clearer than "It's dangerous and there are people there that will kill anyone with money". Also, keep in mind that she doesn't decide to book out of there even after learning that this is a city where people casually admit to murdering their own brother to a complete stranger

If only we had her internal thoughts at that very moment showing that she completely misinterpreted how remorseful the guy was about it.

[KorvinStarmast]

If only we had her internal thoughts at that very moment showing that she completely misinterpreted how remorseful the guy was about it. Celia's internal monologue I could do without. Her utterances are sufficient, both the annoying ones and the not annoying ones.

Haley about tapped me out, and then some, on internal monologue frames for this story / saga/ series.

[The Pilgrim]

I don't think how anything can be clearer than "It's dangerous and there are people there that will kill anyone with money".

Perhaps, "It's dangerous and my face is known by half the town who will tell the Thieve's Guild, whose leader wants me killed because I left the Guild, and whose chief assassin can barely restrain her desire to kill me painfully since the day she joined the Guild?"

Because the first one doesn't makes Greysky city sound any more dangerous than any other big city, or any random dungeon, you know.

[HorizonWalker]

Like I said earlier, Celia thinks Haley's the sort of person who kills people because they've got gold in their pockets.

What I failed to mention is that Celia might extrapolate that to "Haley has a very skewed perspective on what it's like in any given city. She's a cutter of throats and purses, so it makes sense that she mostly interacts with other people like that, and whatever impression she had of Greysky City was colored by the fact that she only associated with thieves and murderers."

Or, a shorter one, "Haley's an adventurer, and therefore paranoid. She's exaggerating. It can't be as dangerous as a dungeon or a warzone- people actually live here, after all, and they've gotta go about their business somehow. Besides, Haley naturally gravitates to dangerous stuff anyways. Her perspective is skewed."

[Forum Explorer]

I was referring to Elan as having accidentally committed mass murder. V was INTENTIONALLY doing so. And I think it's clear Celia was a case of a device/foil character: Someone on the opposite end of the spectrum from Belkar, just as lacking in Wisdom, and just as hard for Haley to deal with.

I think Celia makes for a great High Int, Low Wis type character that we hadn't really seen before.


I don't think how anything can be clearer than "It's dangerous and there are people there that will kill anyone with money". Also, keep in mind that she doesn't decide to book out of there even after learning that this is a city where people casually admit to murdering their own brother to a complete stranger

Except the existence of the city itself proves that's wrong because if that is how the city worked, then nobody would ever go there for trade, and if no one would trade with a city, it would die. So clearly, Haley must be exaggerating or wrong somehow.

Now that is true. That was where Celia started acting like a total nimrod. It's also a tragic miss for the opportunity to make a D&D joke. Like an internal monologue going 'I hate when I roll a 1 on Sense Motive.' Or something like that.



Or, a shorter one, "Haley's an adventurer, and therefore paranoid. She's exaggerating. It can't be as dangerous as a dungeon or a warzone- people actually live here, after all, and they've gotta go about their business somehow. Besides, Haley naturally gravitates to dangerous stuff anyways. Her perspective is skewed."

Also very much this.

[Ruck]

I'll admit: Maybe this is the Lawful part of me talking, but I kinda fail to have sympathy for Haley being angry one of her party members strole from her, given, ya know...Her being her.
Celia asserted herself as Haley's representative. That means her responsibility is to get the best deal for Haley she could. Instead she got the best deal for her own conscience, without regard to what was best for her client. Not to mention, she did so without Haley consenting to have Celia represent her.


and I think at least some portion of her complaints were fairly reasonable: The fact that the Order puts up with an actual serial killer is an issue. I'm on Haley's side of that issue, but only because, you know, he's pretty much the only ally she has left.
Yeah, no argument here.


While i'll acknowledge the naivete was kinda irritating, and the hypicsorcy...Well, if I was gonna have a problem with that, it'd be when she started dating someone whose literal title is "Fighter". She's pretty clearly of the "I won't use violence personally, but I can't control other people" school, which...Yeah, that is a flaw, but, we all have them.
Well, you not having a problem with her hypocrisy isn't really a reason why I shouldn't.


Plus, the Greysky City thing was her only real majorly-bad decision, and...Well, that's partly on Haley for being so damn cryptic about WHY they shouldn't go there. Understandable, given her past, but "there are people there who want me, specifically, dead" would probably have worked. Again, we all have our flaws: One of the points of the ar is that, without Roy around, none of the Order are really suited for leadership, Haley included.
Given that Celia full well knows she is not suited to adventuring nor as knowledgeable as Haley about the locations they're headed, I don't think her naivete can be excused.

And for some reason people keep saying Haley didn't give Celia a good reason for not wanting to go to Greysky City. She spells it out pretty plainly: "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." A pacifist who knows she doesn't know much about the adventuring world and that she can't be resurrected if she dies should probably take that warning from someone whom she knows knows better than her. And she definitely shouldn't abandon her allies to go somewhere that dangerous.


I acknowledge that mistakes were made, on both ends. While I acknowledge Celia being annoying to some, I don't dislike her anymore then I dislike Elan, who i'd argue is CONSIDERABLY more so. Plus, she's never accidentally committed mass murder.

Elan is nowhere near as self-righteous as Celia.


Haley, as far as Celia knew at the time, is the sort of person who kills people for having gold in their pockets.

If Celia thinks of Haley that way, and Haley thinks Greysky is dangerous, that should make Celia less inclined to go there by herself, not more.


I don't think Celia is a particularly well-drawn character in her arc with Haley and Belkar, just because of the infuriating combination of great naivete and refusal to adjust her viewpoint. As a character, she doesn't entirely convince (and getting Grubwiggler involved was just unjustifiably stupid). She seems to exist mostly as a brake on plot resolution by insisting on things being done in a way that's slower, harder, and less likely to lead to a satisfactory outcome, which is frustrating for the characters and frustrating for the reader.
Yeah, bolded in particular. It doesn't make her the worst person in the comic or anything, but it does make her one of the most irritating to spend time with.

[Schroeswald]

Given that Celia full well knows she is not suited to adventuring nor as knowledgeable as Haley about the locations they're headed, I don't think her naivete can be excused.

And for some reason people keep saying Haley didn't give Celia a good reason for not wanting to go to Greysky City. She spells it out pretty plainly: "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." A pacifist who knows she doesn't know much about the adventuring world and that she can't be resurrected if she dies should probably take that warning from someone whom she knows knows better than her. And she definitely shouldn't abandon her allies to go somewhere that dangerous.



If Celia thinks of Haley that way, and Haley thinks Greysky is dangerous, that should make Celia less inclined to go there by herself, not more.


The thing the last three people (and me, though in a very ineloquent way) said, she doesn't completely trust her, Haley associates with dangerous people, its probably not that bad, she's willing to risk it (she can fend for herself with her 6+ HD acting as sorcerer levels after all).

[Ruck]

The thing the last three people (and me, though in a very ineloquent way) said, she doesn't completely trust her, Haley associates with dangerous people, its probably not that bad, she's willing to risk it (she can fend for herself with her 6+ HD acting as sorcerer levels after all).

But I think bolded indicates the exact opposite. That's what I'm saying. It's like... if I was hanging out with Tom Brady, and he was like "we shouldn't play those guys, they're good at football," I wouldn't be like "well sorry, I'm gonna play them without you then."

[Schroeswald]

But I think bolded indicates the exact opposite. That's what I'm saying. It's like... if I was hanging out with Tom Brady, and he was like "we shouldn't play those guys, they're good at football," I wouldn't be like "well sorry, I'm gonna play them without you then."
It's more like you hang out with people like Tom Brady (meaning very good at football), and you talk about say, a team where everyone is from California saying "we shouldn't play those guys, everyone from California is amazing at football", but I'll just explain the argument again using Greysky city because it makes more sense. Haley says that Greysky is full of a bunch of criminals, and Celia's (likely) thought process is "well she usually hangs out with criminals and is one, she probably doesn't know that not the whole city is like her and her friends", it turns out Celia was very wrong here but it was understandable.

[goodpeople25]

When it comes to Celia entering Greysky city, I don't mind that she ignored Haley to enter the city nor that she has a negative opinion of Haley. I find both reactions understandable if not justified. It's the details of how she goes about it that seem questionable (at best) to me and I don't think her negative opinion of Haley (fully) justifies them. The main thing that sticks with me is that she brought the cart with her which I see as more than just a possible strategic error.

I have a similar opinion on her deal with the thieves guild.

[Schroeswald]

When it comes to Celia entering Greysky city, I don't mind that she ignored Haley to enter the city nor that she has a negative opinion of Haley. I find both reactions understandable if not justified. It's the details of how she goes about it that seem questionable (at best) to me and I don't think her negative opinion of Haley (fully) justifies them. The main thing that sticks with me is that she brought the cart with her which I see as more than just a possible strategic error.

I have a similar opinion on her deal with the thieves guild.

Of course she brought the cart! That was the whole point, why would she not bring it?

[goodpeople25]

Of course she brought the cart! That was the whole point, why would she not bring it?
Because a body and an easy means to transport that body is not necessary to find a cleric able to resurrect that body? And even if it was necessary I don't think the ends justify the means even if the means taken are only a minor issue.

[Keltest]

As far as Greysky's existence goes, its obviously a joke about thieves' guilds in fantasy media having a disproportionate amount of power and influence for what they can actually make happen. Their headquarters has a big sign announcing what it is. People get mugged openly in the streets. Of course the town couldn't actually function, but it does anyway because it makes a better story to have a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

[woweedd]

As far as Greysky's existence goes, its obviously a joke about thieves' guilds in fantasy media having a disproportionate amount of power and influence for what they can actually make happen. Their headquarters has a big sign announcing what it is. People get mugged openly in the streets. Of course the town couldn't actually function, but it does anyway because it makes a better story to have a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
Well, yeah, but Celia is not Elan, nor has she spent enough time near him to know his...unique brand of thinking is actually mostly-correct.

[Ruck]

It's more like you hang out with people like Tom Brady (meaning very good at football), and you talk about say, a team where everyone is from California saying "we shouldn't play those guys, everyone from California is amazing at football", but I'll just explain the argument again using Greysky city because it makes more sense. Haley says that Greysky is full of a bunch of criminals, and Celia's (likely) thought process is "well she usually hangs out with criminals and is one, she probably doesn't know that not the whole city is like her and her friends", it turns out Celia was very wrong here but it was understandable.

OK, I see what you mean a little better now.

I still think given the dangers and stakes (especially since Celia's not just "not an adventurer," but someone who can't be resurrected if she dies), it's smarter to wait-- especially since, unlike in Azure City, this isn't Haley not even trying to leave and look for help, it's "No, just not that place."

And as Morgana has said, what makes her irritating is that even after she's screwed up badly by not listening to Haley, she's still super self-righteous about it and doesn't seem to have learned anything from the experience. I get really annoyed by people who aren't even a little humbled by their mistakes.

[hamishspence]

It'll be interesting to see Celia's reaction if she ever finds out that the slain Thieves Guild members she tried to get resurrected (by bargaining away Haley's money) never were resurrected in the first place - with Bozzok spending all that money on turning Crystal's dead body into a golem.

[Caynist]

I have to say, this thread made me realise how poor Celia's CV would look.

As a paralegal, her big two are:

(1) winning a trial where the judge and jury consisted of the main accused's own father (I think this was pointed out in-comic too); and

(2) brokering a completely unnecessary and unasked-for deal with a thief king in the name of pacifism. Best case, this would have saved the unrepentant murderers who held Greysky City in thrall, by expending the resources of someone who was literally trying to save the world. What actually happened was that the resources were used to horribly torture an assassin, resulting in the deaths of multiple innocent bystanders.

She may not be the best paralegal around, is what I'm saying.

[woweedd]

I have to say, this thread made me realise how poor Celia's CV would look.

As a paralegal, her big two are:

(1) winning a trial where the judge and jury consisted of the main accused's own father (I think this was pointed out in-comic too); and

(2) brokering a completely unnecessary and unasked-for deal with a thief king in the name of pacifism. Best case, this would have saved the unrepentant murderers who held Greysky City in thrall, by expending the resources of someone who was literally trying to save the world. What actually happened was that the resources were used to horribly torture an assassin, resulting in the deaths of multiple innocent bystanders.

She may not be the best paralegal around, is what I'm saying.

She’s not a paralegal. They, by definition, are not actually able to take cases, provide legal advice or oversee contract signings, without the aid of an actual lawyer.

[factotum]

Because a body and an easy means to transport that body is not necessary to find a cleric able to resurrect that body? And even if it was necessary I don't think the ends justify the means even if the means taken are only a minor issue.

Looking at it from Celia's viewpoint: she's going into Greysky City to get Roy rezzed, and she's doing so against Haley's explicit wishes. If she leaves the cart behind there's a distinct possibility that Haley--a person she doesn't really trust--will wake up, see her gone, and leave with Roy. If that happens Celia is not only trapped on the Prime Material (because it requires Haley to dismiss her) but she's down one boyfriend as well. On the other hand, taking the cart with her doesn't really accrue any additional risk, because who's going to want to steal a corpse? So it's entirely logical to take the cart.

[goodpeople25]

Looking at it from Celia's viewpoint: she's going into Greysky City to get Roy rezzed, and she's doing so against Haley's explicit wishes. If she leaves the cart behind there's a distinct possibility that Haley--a person she doesn't really trust--will wake up, see her gone, and leave with Roy. If that happens Celia is not only trapped on the Prime Material (because it requires Haley to dismiss her) but she's down one boyfriend as well. On the other hand, taking the cart with her doesn't really accrue any additional risk, because who's going to want to steal a corpse? So it's entirely logical to take the cart.
And I don't think that logic really reflects well on Celia, like at all.

Also if there is risk to Celia there is risk to the corpse. (And while I agree that someone stealing a corpse is farfetched stealing a cart and its contents is not.)

Edit: Would her being called(?) affect her ability to use other magic? Being on her own seems to be a bigger issue than needing the free and easy ride home Haley offers.

[Caynist]

She’s not a paralegal. They, by definition, are not actually able to take cases, provide legal advice or oversee contract signings, without the aid of an actual lawyer.

She's referred to as a paralegal/paraelemental during the Azure City trial, and is still studying law. Maybe things work differently in OotS-land.

(Though to be fair, the only thing she's done that would require the title of lawyer in our world is represent another person in court, and even that can be explained away as a very special circumstance)

[Resileaf]

What's annoying me is that so many people act like everyone in a story should always act logically and without flaw. That's not how things happen. People make bad decisions all the time. Those bad decisions don't fundamentally make you a bad person, especially if you made them in good faith. Celia's decision to go to Greysky City despite Haley's warnings was an honest mistake she made because she believed raising Roy took priority over finding a safer city.

[The Pilgrim]

What's annoying me is that so many people act like everyone in a story should always act logically and without flaw.

Yeah, they seem to forget that this comic is a stick figure fantasy parody.

A character who is clueless about her surroundings and thus blunders a lot because she reads people and situations wrong? That's like what Elan has been doing from the start. Great source of comedy.

Bonus points if that character takes the POV of an outsider to gaming. Like, you know, what happens when someone brings his non-gamer girlfriend to a game session and tries to explain how the game works to her, and she rolls a character and doesn't optimizes her character's build and is constantly making "wrong" choices during the game session because she plays her character like it were a normal person in a normal world and not a bunch of modifiers controlled by a powerplayer minmax gamer in a world whose inhabitants exist mainly as a source of XP for the PCs. And everybody loathes her and the GM asks the player to never bring his girlfriend to a game session ever again.

Fantasy Parody, remember?

[woweedd]

Yeah, they seem to forget that this comic is a stick figure fantasy parody.

A character who is clueless about her surroundings and thus blunders a lot because she reads people and situations wrong? That's like what Elan has been doing from the start. Great source of comedy.

Bonus points if that character takes the POW of an outsider to gaming. Like, you know, someone bringing his non-gamer girlfriend to a game session and trying to explain how gaming works to her, and she playing her character like it was a normal person in a normal world and not a bunch of modifiers controlled by a powerplayer minmax gamer in a world whose inhabitants exist mainly as a source of XP for the PCs.

Fantasy Parody, remember?

If I were an analyzing man, and I am, I might wonder if it says something about our society that a dumb and/or naïve male character is a lovable buffoon, while his female counterpart is a flaky ditz.

[CriticalFailure]

If I were an analyzing man, and I am, I might wonder if it says something about our society that a dumb and/or naive male character is a lovable odd ball, while his female counterpart is a flaky ditz.

This dichotomy applies to a lot of tropes. Eg a male character who is on the good side but not nice is a badass/smartass with a heart of gold, while an equivalent female character is usually read as a "horrible b*tch."

[Keltest]

For my part, I find Elan equally annoying and out of place some of the time, especially post character growth. For example, the earlier crack about him needing warm milk to rest and prepare his spells seemed like a totally unnecessary cheap joke to me. He had an entire book dedicated to him having to grow up a bit, and then we get "his girlfriend needs to feed him warm milk at night like a little kid." He can be foolish, and I don't mind that, but at least let him have the dignity of being a functioning adult. He just gets less of it because, as a main character, he has more depth and screen time than Celia that allows for other aspects of the character to be there.

[KorvinStarmast]

And everybody loathes her and the GM asks the player to never bring his girlfriend to a game session ever again. In our groups (back when the hobby was heavily male in participation) we always tried to find ways to encourage ladies to return since we had so few show up at all. We figured that all new players, male and female, take a bit of playing to get used to this weird-fun game.
(This was before my adult gamer days and mixed crowds were a lot more common).
As a DM or GM, I always liked it (in those days) that the gamers knew that a lady would be coming since that would induce most of the males to bathe, and indulge in at least a modicum of grooming, before arrival.
Quality of life improvement for the DM. :smallcool:

[Morgana]

I mean, Elan is very different than Celia. He doesn't try to preach about pacifism in a comic where most problems are solved by violence, and constantly try to rag on the one person that's actually been trying to help you. He also actually helps the party a lot, and has a ton of character growth, not to mention how most of his goofs are generally irrelevant towards the overall plot, and much less abrupt than literally everything Celia did throughout the whole arc.

The problem is not being ilogical and incompetent, but being all that while refusing to take blame and constantly judging other characters while they're during their hardest to save your ass. It's just that the story seems to bend it's own internal logic to not make Celia actually accountable for any of her flaws, while all the other characters when they do something dumb or act lawful stupid, suffer the consequences of those actions and a lot of times even manage to grow and become better people because of it.

Elan is dumb but at the same time he has an undying love and respect for his party, also his poor judgment is constantly called into question by other characters, even Haley get's mad at him for not realizing Tarquin was clearly evil

[CriticalFailure]

I mean, given Elan and the rest of the Order’s interactions with others that complaint readers more as “the people whose names I know have been inconvenienced” more than any meaningful statement about characters actions. It’s pretty easy to argue that at the least Elan, Haley, Durkon, and V have all avoided taking responsibility much more than Celia ever did.

[woweedd]

I mean, given Elan and the rest of the Order’s interactions with others that complaint readers more as “the people whose names I know have been inconvenienced” more than any meaningful statement about characters actions. It’s pretty easy to argue that at the least Elan, Haley, Durkon, and V have all avoided taking responsibility much more than Celia ever did.
I would make the argument that Celia's probably the most morally, capital-G Good character this side of Elan and absurdly less dangerous to be near.

[CriticalFailure]

I would make the argument that Celia's probably the most morally, capital-G Good character this side of Elan and absurdly less dangerous to be near.

That actually seems like a fair assessment. I don’t get why people act like her not wanting to personally be violent but supporting adventurers such as Roy is hypocritical- there are tons of people irk who don’t personally want to fight but aren’t against everyone doing it, whether it’s because they personally find violence upsetting or don’t feel like they can live up to that responsibility or whatever. In fact I think not wanting to personally be violent and wanting to minimize violence while supporting groups such as the police, the army, the mall cops, or whatever is actually the most common take on violence in real life in much of the world. Plus there’s a history of conscientious objectors doing things like working as military medics. No one would be confused by someone who was dating a cop not wanting to shoot people a wanting to minimize and avoid violence.

[Resileaf]

That actually seems like a fair assessment. I don’t get why people act like her not wanting to personally be violent but supporting adventurers such as Roy is hypocritical- there are tons of people irk who don’t personally want to fight but aren’t against everyone doing it, whether it’s because they personally find violence upsetting or don’t feel like they can live up to that responsibility or whatever. In fact I think not wanting to personally be violent and wanting to minimize violence while supporting groups such as the police, the army, the mall cops, or whatever is actually the most common take on violence in real life in much of the world. Plus there’s a history of conscientious objectors doing things like working as military medics. No one would be confused by someone who was dating a cop not wanting to shoot people a wanting to minimize and avoid violence.

Besides, the person she dates isn't a raging lunatic searching for reasons to fight any random person. Just because Roy doesn't shirk away from confrontation doesn't mean he purposely seeks conflict. He's a realist when it comes to violence, but Celia still likes him because he remains a good-natured person close to her own values (also she probably appreciates the trust he showed her to allow her to represent him in trial).

[The Pilgrim]

To be fair, Celia's judgemental attitude towards Haley is rooted to the fact that Haley is tolerating Belkar's actions without doing anything to keep him under check, even taking his side at times. So, Celia's remarks are fair.

Of course, in hindsight, Haley only tolerated Belkar because she couldn't get rid of him, and rationalized it by refusing to take responsibility for his actions. But to an external observer it is not far fetched to assume Haley let Belkar go loose because her morality was not far from Belkar's. After all, the Bureucraric Deva made the same complaint to Roy - that he was willing to put Belkar's atrocities under the rug as far as he could use the halfling to further his own goals.

[woweedd]

To be fair, Celia's judgamental attitude towards Haley is rooted to the fact that Haley is tolerating Belkar's actions without doing anything to keep him under check and taking his side at times. So, Celia's remarks are fair.

Of course, in hindsight, Haley tolerated Belkar because she couldn't get rid of him and rationalized it by refusing to take responsibility for his actions. But to an external observer it is not far fetched to assume Haley let Belkar go loose because her morality was not far from Belkar's
Yes, exactly! To C, every single thing Haley tells her to do is colored by the Belkar issue. Add in that, frankly, if she listened to Haley before, they'd still be stuck in AC...It makes some sense. As I said, she's a mirror image of Belkar, and just as hard for Haley to handle.

[Forum Explorer]

I mean, Elan is very different than Celia. He doesn't try to preach about pacifism in a comic where most problems are solved by violence, and constantly try to rag on the one person that's actually been trying to help you. He also actually helps the party a lot, and has a ton of character growth, not to mention how most of his goofs are generally irrelevant towards the overall plot, and much less abrupt than literally everything Celia did throughout the whole arc.

The problem is not being ilogical and incompetent, but being all that while refusing to take blame and constantly judging other characters while they're during their hardest to save your ass. It's just that the story seems to bend it's own internal logic to not make Celia actually accountable for any of her flaws, while all the other characters when they do something dumb or act lawful stupid, suffer the consequences of those actions and a lot of times even manage to grow and become better people because of it.

Elan is dumb but at the same time he has an undying love and respect for his party, also his poor judgment is constantly called into question by other characters, even Haley get's mad at him for not realizing Tarquin was clearly evil

She doesn't really rag on Haley all that much. She rags on Haley for not controlling Belkar, and she rags on Haley for valuing gold more than people's lives. And that's about it. She doesn't rag on Haley for killing the thieves in the first place, nor for stealing from Grubwiggler.

And the disconnect in the latter case is really easy to understand. How can you put a money value on anyone's life? Sure, it's annoying and inconvenient, but surely no one dying is worth any amount of money? While in Haley's world, the value of a life has a very exact number, exactly how much it costs to cast Raise Dead.

As for literally everything Celia did, well she really only made one major mistake, and that was not explicitly asking for a resurrection spell. No, going into Greysky wasn't a mistake, it was a gamble. Perhaps a stupid one, but as things played out, one that wouldn't have cost her anything if she had just asked Grubwiggler for the exact spell she wanted instead of being vague about it.

Besides that, seriously what other mistakes did she make?

[Morgana]

It's not putting money on someone else's lives, is giving an amount of money that's bigger than a lot of nations have to a criminal organization that just a moment back tried to kill you, and will probably do so again the moment it's convenient. It's an incredibly dumb thing to do, and is only not suicidal cause Celia wouldn't be there to suffer the consequences of her actions. And making gambles with this little of a chance of ever leading to a gain, and that would cost everything if it failed, something it had a high chance of happening is very much a mistake

[The Pilgrim]

Well, the deal with the Thieve's Guild allowed Haley and Celia to enlist their help in recovering Roy's body. Something they couldn't have achieved on their own. Not without going to Cliffport to hire an army of mercenaries which would likewise cost them a lot of gold with a fair chance of losing track of Roy's body in the meantime.

[Forum Explorer]

It's not putting money on someone else's lives, is giving an amount of money that's bigger than a lot of nations have to a criminal organization that just a moment back tried to kill you, and will probably do so again the moment it's convenient. It's an incredibly dumb thing to do, and is only not suicidal cause Celia wouldn't be there to suffer the consequences of her actions. And making gambles with this little of a chance of ever leading to a gain, and that would cost everything if it failed, something it had a high chance of happening is very much a mistake

And yet Haley went along with it after learning about it. And mind you, she could've gone back on the attack easily enough. All the high level guild members were still down, all the people she killed were still dead. And it's not like Celia could or would do anything to stop her. It's pretty clear that Haley isn't concerned about the risk of the Theives Guild having that money and is more just angry that Celia gave her money away.

It had a chance to cost everything, but there is also a wide range of possibilities where failure costs Celia very little. Take her being mugged for example. She could easily win the fight with a Charm Person spell or an illusion. And then she could either be scared away and return to Haley smarter, if slightly injured. Just because things went horribly wrong, doesn't mean they had to go horribly wrong.

Another example, she could have actually paid Grubwiggler the money he was demanding, and then taken the Bone Golem with them. Haley would be pissed about losing the money, but they could recoup it later, and the Bone Golem would even help. Until they got to, well basically the same point the story got to anyways with V showing up.

[Schroeswald]

And yet Haley went along with it after learning about it. And mind you, she could've gone back on the attack easily enough. All the high level guild members were still down, all the people she killed were still dead. And it's not like Celia could or would do anything to stop her. It's pretty clear that Haley isn't concerned about the risk of the Theives Guild having that money and is more just angry that Celia gave her money away.
[snipped, I agree with everything in the whole post but I'm adding to this part]
I would like to remind everyone that Haley gets a light rash when she knows that Roy is giving Bandana some money to pay for their travel, and its worse if she sees the money change hands, loosing 10% of her money isn't going to make her at all happy.

[Xyril]

Plus her judgemental view on Haley is one based on extreme prejudice, that she keeps all the way through their adventure even when Haley was actively trying to save her

This is one of my main problems with Celia (which isn't to say that I feel she was a bad, poorly written character, but rather that I think of her character as a pretty bad person and a poor "friend.") It's been said in these forums and in the strip that Celia considers Haley a friend, but she acts more like the sort of "friend" I wouldn't even bother confirming on Facebook. I think it's legitimate to form a first impression of someone based on prior bad acts.

I would even understand if you think, "All I know about this guy is that he used to steal cars for a living. It's not really worth the time and risk to give him a chance and see if there's more to him than that. However, Celia decides to "befriend" Haley superficially, while never really giving her even a sliver of a chance to show that there's more to her than Celia's initial judgment of "criminal." To me, Celia is at best a toxic friend, and at worst just sticking around using Haley as a means to an end.

And even then, Haley has the same goal, so I wouldn't judge Celia harshly if she was open with Haley and said, "I don't like or trust you, you don't have to like or trust me, but we both care about Roy and want him resurrected, and we stand a better chance working at it together." Instead, Celia keeps framing their relationship as one of friends/colleagues (which Haley goes along with because that's how she sees their relationship), but it's entirely one-sided. Celia expects all of the courtesy and consideration you should expect from a friend/colleague, but she rarely offers the same in return (which Haley goes along with because she's not a good leader/manager), and is very quick to play the whole "but you're just a criminal, why should I trust you anyway?" card.

My other issue is less with Celia and more with one of the common defenses of her conduct: That she's a fish out of water who's actually competent within her native context, and that we should be more understanding. I can't speak with how competent she is as an Outsider, but she's actually a horrible law student/lawyer (both in the sense that her legal skills aren't as good as she thinks and in her complete lack of legal ethics.) A good lawyer provides her skills and judgment to a client--she doesn't substitute her judgment for a client's.

Paradoxically, legal ethics mean that you never substitute your own ethics, values, or goals for a clients--especially not unilaterally and without their informed consent. The client sets the goals--your job is to help them find the best way to achieve them. If a client orders you to (or otherwise places you in a position where you'd be forced to) compromise your own ethics, the proper response is to end the representation--preferably in a way that minimizes the prejudice to the client's position. A lawyer should never--like Celia did--simply decide, "Screw it, I know my client would never approve of it, but here's the deal that I'm offering because it's the one that satisfies my personal sense of ethics."


And yet Haley went along with it after learning about it. And mind you, she could've gone back on the attack easily enough. All the high level guild members were still down, all the people she killed were still dead. And it's not like Celia could or would do anything to stop her. It's pretty clear that Haley isn't concerned about the risk of the Theives Guild having that money and is more just angry that Celia gave her money away.

This speaks more to Haley being a much better and more genuine friend/colleague to Celia than Celia ever was to her, and Haley's general decency. Even though this was an obviously Crystal-golem-shaped bad idea that jeopardized her father's freedom, it was already a done deal as far as the Guild and any outside observers were concerned, so backing out of it (probably with multiple Sneak Attacks) takes on a very different moral hue than simply refusing to make the deal to begin with.

Plus, on the short-term friends generally back their friends up in the moment, even if it's entirely the friend's fault there's trouble to begin with. With a couple of exceptions, the Order always backed Elan or Belkar when their respective stupidity or viciousness got them into trouble.

[Squire Doodad]

snip

I'd say that Celia isn't a toxic friend by any means- she just doesn't know what she's doing, and made some assumptions about how much Haley might exaggerate. They do get along well while Belkar is sick, and while she makes rash decisions that's more because Celia herself is trying to work within the world she is in more than anything else.

[Ruck]

OK, I see what you mean a little better now.

I still think given the dangers and stakes (especially since Celia's not just "not an adventurer," but someone who can't be resurrected if she dies), it's smarter to wait-- especially since, unlike in Azure City, this isn't Haley not even trying to leave and look for help, it's "No, just not that place."

And as Morgana has said, what makes her irritating is that even after she's screwed up badly by not listening to Haley, she's still super self-righteous about it and doesn't seem to have learned anything from the experience. I get really annoyed by people who aren't even a little humbled by their mistakes.

Heh, thinking about this some more, I bet if Celia and Roy hadn't been long distance, they might not have lasted very long a a couple. They're both stubborn and convinced they're always the smartest person in the room-- they would've driven each other nuts any time they disagreed. Roy is growing out of it, at least-- I have no idea if Celia is, since we haven't been following her and haven't seen her for two books now.


What's annoying me is that so many people act like everyone in a story should always act logically and without flaw. That's not how things happen. People make bad decisions all the time. Those bad decisions don't fundamentally make you a bad person, especially if you made them in good faith. Celia's decision to go to Greysky City despite Haley's warnings was an honest mistake she made because she believed raising Roy took priority over finding a safer city.

I don't think anyone has said that. I think we've said-- or I've said, in any case-- that Celia's particular faults are ones I personally find very annoying. (And, as Morgana has said, there seems to be no recognition by her or the narrative that they are in fact faults; she remains convinced of her righteousness no matter how badly she screws up.)


If I were an analyzing man, and I am, I might wonder if it says something about our society that a dumb and/or naive male character is a lovable odd ball, while his female counterpart is a flaky ditz.

It does, but I'm not sure that's what's happening here, at least if we're talking Elan and Celia. They're very different-- for starters, Celia is actually intelligent. But the differences that make one lovable and one annoying speak more to their personalities: Elan, in the Giant's own words, is "a lot of fun to be around," and he clearly has a big heart and cares about the Order and his allies, even when his competence is in question. Celia's faults in the DSTP arc seem to be more of a product of high intelligence / low wisdom; more to the point, her personality is very different, much more self-righteous, and she is constantly hectoring her allies even when her allies are working to save her life.

For a more apt comparison, I think my opening comment in this post about Celia and Roy gets to the point. I have indeed found Roy extremely annoying for his tendency to assume he's smarter than everyone else and not actually listen to anybody-- to such an extreme that he won't listen to a literal representative of Heaven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) who has important information for him. Again, though, since we actually follow Roy as the main character of the story, we see him grow and change. Celia doesn't get that change in the narrative-- although, again, to back up Morgana here:


The problem is not being ilogical and incompetent, but being all that while refusing to take blame and constantly judging other characters while they're during their hardest to save your ass. It's just that the story seems to bend it's own internal logic to not make Celia actually accountable for any of her flaws, while all the other characters when they do something dumb or act lawful stupid, suffer the consequences of those actions and a lot of times even manage to grow and become better people because of it.

--even one acknowledgement from Celia after it was all over that hey, maybe she didn't know best would have gone a long way to showing a little humility and growth. Instead, we just get her continuing to complain about Haley. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html)

[Morgana]

Wow, looking at that strip even Roy seems REALLY dickish, Haley doesn't care more about gold than people, and she never has. This sounds extremely off character for Roy honestly, I mean, just look at how he dealt with Miko who said pretty similar things. Celia just seems to warp the comic's internal logic whenever sh's on panel, Haley might act a bit morally gray but she is heroic and does care about people's lives, and doesn't just act out of self interest, sh's Chaotic Good not Chaotic Neutral.

Like, it's just so bad to say that after she literally risked her life for both of them.

[Resileaf]

Wow, looking at that strip even Roy seems REALLY dickish, Haley doesn't care more about gold than people, and she never has. This sounds extremely off character for Roy honestly, I mean, just look at how he dealt with Miko who said pretty similar things. Celia just seems to warp the comic's internal logic whenever sh's on panel, Haley might act a bit morally gray but she is heroic and does care about people's lives, and doesn't just act out of self interest, sh's Chaotic Good not Chaotic Neutral.

Like, it's just so bad to say that after she literally risked her life for both of them.

Reminder that this strip is long before Haley's character development, and many of Roy's interactions with Haley in their adventuring together had her prioritize riches for herself above everything. He doesn't know what her real motives are.

[Morgana]

She literally had just risked her life to save him, and this is after the battle of azure city when Haley could have left whenever she wanted as Roy had ended her contract, but she didn't

[Ruck]

Reminder that this strip is long before Haley's character development, and many of Roy's interactions with Haley in their adventuring together had her prioritize riches for herself above everything. He doesn't know what her real motives are.


She literally had just risked her life to save him, and this is after the battle of azure city when Haley could have left whenever she wanted as Roy had ended her contract, but she didn't

Also, I disagree that the strip is "long before Haley's character development." A lot of her development came during War and XPs (becoming able to admit her feelings for Elan) and DTSP (getting over her self-doubt enough to lead, even if that same self-doubt perhaps kept her from setting out from Azure City longer than it should have).

[Xyril]

She literally had just risked her life to save him, and this is after the battle of azure city when Haley could have left whenever she wanted as Roy had ended her contract, but she didn't

A more minor part of Roy's character development has been how he has come to more fully like and respect his team. I think he always took his responsibilities as a leader seriously, and tearing up the contracts was an important symbolic first step in his changing attitudes, but Roy continued to judge his teammates pretty harshly for their faults for a while, even as he simultaneously gained more respect for their loyalty and (mostly) good intentions.

Also, she's his girlfriend. A lot of otherwise stand-up guys will keep their mouth shut to avoid rocking the boat. Particular if you spend the vast majority in a party (but for Haley) of the sausage variety.

[The Pilgrim]

Wow, looking at that strip even Roy seems REALLY dickish, Haley doesn't care more about gold than people, and she never has. This sounds extremely off character for Roy honestly, I mean, just look at how he dealt with Miko who said pretty similar things. Celia just seems to warp the comic's internal logic whenever sh's on panel, Haley might act a bit morally gray but she is heroic and does care about people's lives, and doesn't just act out of self interest, sh's Chaotic Good not Chaotic Neutral.

Like, it's just so bad to say that after she literally risked her life for both of them.

Looks like the problem is not just Celia, but anyone who doesn't worships Haley at the top of an Altar. Any character in the comic that finds faults in Haley's personality and doesn't treats her as a Marie Sue is guilty of behaving off-character, being bad written, being a {scrubbed} , or being a toxic person.

Even if it is Roy, the main hero of the story, agreeing to his girlfriend that Haley values money too much, three strips after Haley didn't dismissed Roy's fears that she would be capable of betraying the mission for a 10gp bet.

[CriticalFailure]

Side characters? Not acknowledging that the protagonists are the center of the universe?

It's more likely than you think.

[Ruck]

Looks like the problem is not just Celia, but anyone who doesn't worships Haley at the top of an Altar. Any character in the comic that finds faults in Haley's personality and doesn't treats her as a Marie Sue is guilty of behaving off-character, being bad written, being a {scrub the post, scrub the quote} , or being a toxic person.

{scrubbed}

[Schroeswald]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Yeah, I agree with the second part of Pilgrim's post (and disagree with much of what Morgana wrote), but arguing that saying that what Celia said didn't apply to Haley (which at that point is pretty true, she's mostly developed past that, though I can definitely say that Haley cares more about gold than the existence of almost all of the people she killed there, and Roy sort of agreeing with Celia is a bit weird) is the same as being mad at anyone for not treating Haley as a Mary Sue is a huuuuge misrepresentation of every single person who I've ever seen argue over Celia.

[Morgana]

Like, you surely understand that this was a joke between 2 party members, and that Haley would not actually doom the world for 10 gp she probably wouldn't even be able to spend in account of them all being erased from existence

[Schroeswald]

Like, you surely understand that this was a joke between 2 party members, and that Haley would not actually doom the world for 10 gp she probably wouldn't even be able to spend in account of them all being erased from existence

You know what? You are correct there, but what it does show is that Haley is very greedy, a well established apart of her personality (she gets rashes at losing money), and its extreme enough that you can joke about it, and well, she doesn't value the lives of many of the people she killed or would have killed and didn't intend to raise them, that's sort of the context there, she would rather keep her money than raise most of the people she killed, and Roy has several good reasons to not debate Celia on Haley's exact morality.

[Morgana]

She didn't wanted to use her money cause they are a criminal organization that runs a whole city, and were actively trying to kill her and have very little reason to not attempt to do so again. Keep in mind that the gold an adventurer makes is more than the treasury of a lot of nations, so giving that much gold to a crime syndicate is an incredibly bad idea, especially cause considering most of those people were low-level they had very little incentive in actually using the gold to ressurect them

[Ruck]

She didn't wanted to use her money cause they are a criminal organization that runs a whole city, and were actively trying to kill her and have very little reason to not attempt to do so again. Keep in mind that the gold an adventurer makes is more than the treasury of a lot of nations, so giving that much gold to a crime syndicate is an incredibly bad idea, especially cause considering most of those people were low-level they had very little incentive in actually using the gold to ressurect them

Another sign of Celia's naivete, and kind of a baffling one. She thinks Haley isn't trustworthy, but the Thieves' Guild is? The same one that sent a couple of dozen people to try to kill the two of them minutes ago? The one with the leader who has made it his mission to kill Haley and who has a highly competent assassin as his sidekick? I mean, even if she didn't know any of the details, they're a Thieves' Guild.

Anyway, I think the salient point re: #669 is that Haley just put her life at risk for Celia and Roy, and they're still talking about her badly. It is odd for Celia to complain that Haley simply likes violence for being the more convenient option, immediately after an incident where her use of violence was directly in service of saving their lives.

[Liquor Box]

She didn't wanted to use her money cause they are a criminal organization that runs a whole city, and were actively trying to kill her and have very little reason to not attempt to do so again. Keep in mind that the gold an adventurer makes is more than the treasury of a lot of nations, so giving that much gold to a crime syndicate is an incredibly bad idea, especially cause considering most of those people were low-level they had very little incentive in actually using the gold to ressurect them

I don't think the implication of that strip was that she was objecting to Celia facilitating the resurrection of criminals (in fact avoiding the resulting power vacuum was one of her objectives) and there was no hint that she thought the money wouldn't be used for that end. Rather, I think the implication was that she objected her money being used in that way.

Anyway, even if you are right, it would not have been unreasonable for Celia to interpret the situation of Hayley preferring to keep her money in her pocket rather than using it to raise the guild members.

I don't think Celia was dickish in the strip Ruck linked to (669) at all. She has a different moral perspective to Hayley (no comment from me on which is better) and I don't think there's anything wrong with her expressing that. And Roy did nothing wrong at all - he actually defended Hayley earlier in the strip.

[Morgana]

She made an assesment of Haley's morals, which were incorrect as Haley has shown to care about people's lives, even more than money considering she at that point had helped tons of people with nothing to gain from it, and a lot to lose. Also Haley isn't naive, why would she believe the thieves' guild would ever play fair? One of her most well estabilished skills is realizing when there's a con and deceit, besides that she knew these people for a big part of her life, and anyone with half a brain would know not to make a deal with a guild of evil aligned criminals

[Ruck]

I don't think Celia was dickish in the strip Ruck linked to (669) at all. She has a different moral perspective to Hayley (no comment from me on which is better) and I don't think there's anything wrong with her expressing that. And Roy did nothing wrong at all - he actually defended Hayley earlier in the strip.

Taken by itself, it's not a big deal. She's just been through a harrowing experience, she hasn't seen Roy in a long time, she needed to get some things off her chest. It's just when taken in the context of the rest of her behavior in this arc that it kinda reads as, geez, she won't give Haley a break or the benefit of the doubt for even a moment.

[CriticalFailure]

It's not like Haley didn't talk badly about Celia a bunch as well, when Celia was the one who actually put the whole resurrecting Roy thing in motion and was critical in getting the whole situation resolved even though she did screw up by not asking for a resurrection spell. This is just another case of "things are fine when protagonists do them but terrible when side characters do them," and it's fine if people feel that way but I wish people would just admit that it's because of which characters are doing it and not some objective standard.

[Rrmcklin]

It's been awhile since I've read those strips but I did get the impression that Celia was (at least partially) intentionally annoying (for comedy's sake, if nothing else) but that she was also meant to have a valid point at least regarding Haley's morality, or lack thereof, to a degree. And I can't really fault her for that.

The naivete did get a bit too frustrating after a certain point, but I do think certain people here are playing it up, and absolving Haley too much of the whole situation. But, again, it's been awhile since I've read the material.

[Forum Explorer]

She made an assesment of Haley's morals, which were incorrect as Haley has shown to care about people's lives, even more than money considering she at that point had helped tons of people with nothing to gain from it, and a lot to lose. Also Haley isn't naive, why would she believe the thieves' guild would ever play fair? One of her most well estabilished skills is realizing when there's a con and deceit, besides that she knew these people for a big part of her life, and anyone with half a brain would know not to make a deal with a guild of evil aligned criminals

And yet, she doesn't try and back out of the deal, and she doesn't raise any concerns about it being a con. And for all the times she has helped people (which really isn't that often), there are many more times of her wanting money or hating to lose money or just being generally greedy.

[Ruck]

And yet, she doesn't try and back out of the deal, and she doesn't raise any concerns about it being a con.

I mean, expect recognizing they were trying to kill her, and getting the drop on them first and declaring she was never going to pay them a cent.


It's not like Haley didn't talk badly about Celia a bunch as well, when Celia was the one who actually put the whole resurrecting Roy thing in motion and was critical in getting the whole situation resolved even though she did screw up by not asking for a resurrection spell. This is just another case of "things are fine when protagonists do them but terrible when side characters do them," and it's fine if people feel that way but I wish people would just admit that it's because of which characters are doing it and not some objective standard.

Bolded is a pretty big elision, in my opinion. If that's all you think Celia did wrong, we're not likely to see eye-to-eye on this.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I had always thought that Celia was just a "normal person" stand-in. Making the best decisions she could based on normal-people assumptions about life and in a situation she wasn't entirely equipped to understand. It was a perfect counterpoint to someone unwilling to take responsibility for their decisions and not wanting to share crucial information with others. Almost as if Celia's flaws were complementary to and highlighted Haley's flaws.

Come to think of it, what's the deal with Haley in that time period? In that arc she murders a helpless person, encourages the murder of other unarmed people and thoughtlessly litters.

Actually, Haley not deciding to leave the Cloister was pretty dumb too. I'm always suspicious of unknown abjuration fields when I notice them, so she should've been too. At the very least, I go brush my teeth.

[Forum Explorer]

I mean, expect recognizing they were trying to kill her, and getting the drop on them first and declaring she was never going to pay them a cent.


Do you mean except? Cause she does say again, which kinda implies that she did pay some. In 974, Bozzak even says he uses the money he got from Haley to turn Crystal into a half-golem, the money that was meant for the raise dead spells.

So yeah, Haley actually stuck to the deal, until she killed Crystal. You are right that Bozzak was always going to betray her, but that's evidence that she shouldn't have accepted the deal in the first place. A deal, I would remind you, that Haley was perfectly fine with until she discovered how much money it was going to cost her.

[Liquor Box]

She made an assesment of Haley's morals, which were incorrect as Haley has shown to care about people's lives, even more than money considering she at that point had helped tons of people with nothing to gain from it, and a lot to lose.

Helping people with nothing to gain from it does not mean she cares about people more than money. Helping people at great personal financial cost might.

From the comic you could certainly argue it either way. We've discussed her horror at having to pay out for the thieve guild resurrections. One could also point ot the fact that she suffered some sort of breakdown when she lost her fortune, but did not seem to be in as much distress when people around her died (even her friends). You're probably right that there are signs pointing the other way as well. But I don't think Celia's assessment was unfair.


Also Haley isn't naive, why would she believe the thieves' guild would ever play fair? One of her most well estabilished skills is realizing when there's a con and deceit, besides that she knew these people for a big part of her life, and anyone with half a brain would know not to make a deal with a guild of evil aligned criminals

This reads like you are trying to build a justification for Hayley's actions. We can make up secret motivations for nearly every act in the comic. There's nothing in the comic to suggest that this was what Hayley was thinking.


Taken by itself, it's not a big deal. She's just been through a harrowing experience, she hasn't seen Roy in a long time, she needed to get some things off her chest. It's just when taken in the context of the rest of her behavior in this arc that it kinda reads as, geez, she won't give Haley a break or the benefit of the doubt for even a moment.

Leave out the harrowing experience, give her some time to consider what she wants to say, and make it a comment she makes to Roy after having spent considerable time with him - I still don't read anything wrong with her saying it (or saying it several times, if that's the context you're referring to).

You may find her overly moralistic perspective (at least relative to the setting) annoying (i prefer the gray characters like Hayley and Belkar myself), but I don't think she's being wholly unfair to Hayley.

[The Pilgrim]

Like, you surely understand that this was a joke between 2 party members, and that Haley would not actually doom the world for 10 gp she probably wouldn't even be able to spend in account of them all being erased from existence

Roy's face at that strip is not that of someone joking. It was the face of someone realizing "you are so greedy that I'm sure the thought of sabotaging the mission for 10gp has crossed your mind". And Haley's reaction shows that Roy was right.

Of course Roy doesn't thinks Haley will betray him for 10gp. Otherwise he wouldn't keep her in his party. That doesn't changes the fact that his first impression on Haley was that she was just an extremely greedy thief. And, even though he knows her better now, he still thinks "values money too much" is one of Haley's character traits.

If we move to other good-aligned members of the party, Durkon sucessfully convinced Haley to remain as Miko's prisoner by appealing to her greed. And even Elan tends to backpedal with haste when the money issue arises with Haley.

"Extremey greedy thief" is a common first impression Haley gives to people, not just Celia. Because it's one of her main character flaws.


She didn't wanted to use her money cause they are a criminal organization that runs a whole city, and were actively trying to kill her and have very little reason to not attempt to do so again. Keep in mind that the gold an adventurer makes is more than the treasury of a lot of nations, so giving that much gold to a crime syndicate is an incredibly bad idea, especially cause considering most of those people were low-level they had very little incentive in actually using the gold to ressurect them

She doesn't wants to use her money because:
1) She is greedy.
2) She needs it to pay her father's ramson.
3) She is greedy.

And that's about it. "Giving money to a criminal organization" was not a factor in her thought process.

[factotum]

This is one of my main problems with Celia (which isn't to say that I feel she was a bad, poorly written character, but rather that I think of her character as a pretty bad person and a poor "friend.") It's been said in these forums and in the strip that Celia considers Haley a friend, but she acts more like the sort of "friend" I wouldn't even bother confirming on Facebook.

I don't think that's the case. Celia is obviously close friends with Roy, so to her, Haley is more of a "friend of a friend". I never got the impression from the way they talk to each other that they're actually friends themselves.

[woweedd]

I would like to remind everyone that Haley gets a light rash when she knows that Roy is giving Bandana some money to pay for their travel, and its worse if she sees the money change hands, loosing 10% of her money isn't going to make her at all happy.
Again, maybe it's the Lawful side of me, but I feel like Haley is in no position to be angry one of her party members stole form her, given...Ya know. Being her.

[Squire Doodad]

I would like to remind everyone that Haley gets a light rash when she knows that Roy is giving Bandana some money to pay for their travel, and its worse if she sees the money change hands, loosing 10% of her money isn't going to make her at all happy.

I'm pretty sure that was just a joke between friends.

[Schroeswald]

I'm pretty sure that was just a joke between friends.

It plays to me as them being serious, neither of them are smiling, but without that it does show that Roy sees Haley as greedy enough that not wanting to lose any money is her legitimate reason for being worried about the deal, no matter what she’s a greedy miser who doesn’t want to lose money (and that’s what I love about her), and that is the core of the conflict relating to the Thieves Guild deal, she doesn’t want to spend money to raise the casualties, while Celia will do just about anything to raise them, that makes her a bad para elemental for Haley, but it’s an understandable and well-written characterization (wait, forgot we were mostly on the same side here, oh well :smalltongue:).

[Keltest]

Again, maybe it's the Lawful side of me, but I feel like Haley is in no position to be angry one of her party members stole form her, given...Ya know. Being her.

Lawful or chaotic, its a massive breach of trust to speak for somebody and then agree to something that you know they would not approve of on their behalf. There is no situation where this becomes ok. Doubly so because Celia was previously getting deeply upset that Haley was trampling on her own moral code earlier.

[Squire Doodad]

Lawful or chaotic, its a massive breach of trust to speak for somebody and then agree to something that you know they would not approve of on their behalf. There is no situation where this becomes ok. Doubly so because Celia was previously getting deeply upset that Haley was trampling on her own moral code earlier.

This. Just because you stole stuff and someone unrelated is using it without your permission doesn't mean it is right. It might be ironic, but it is still wrong for someone to take your stuff. (As in, the person doing it is doing something wrong)

Celia doing so is hypocritical. And a terrible act of haggling because she only got the Thieve's Guild to let Haley keep 50%, and not 90% or something.

[Forum Explorer]

Lawful or chaotic, its a massive breach of trust to speak for somebody and then agree to something that you know they would not approve of on their behalf. There is no situation where this becomes ok. Doubly so because Celia was previously getting deeply upset that Haley was trampling on her own moral code earlier.

True. Mind you, I think Celia knew that, and didn't care about Haley's feelings. Likely because Haley went around trampling on Celia's moral code earlier. And as far as she's concerned, it's not really Haley's money anyways, because it's stolen.

[Keltest]

True. Mind you, I think Celia knew that, and didn't care about Haley's feelings. Likely because Haley went around trampling on Celia's moral code earlier. And as far as she's concerned, it's not really Haley's money anyways, because it's stolen.

That makes it worse. She's giving away the money of complete strangers, to known thieves, and in the process trampled all over Haley's trust (to say nothing of her own alleged principals as a lawyer) because it makes her feel better. At least when Haley broke Celia's code, it was out of actual necessity.

[Forum Explorer]

That makes it worse. She's giving away the money of complete strangers, to known thieves, and in the process trampled all over Haley's trust (to say nothing of her own alleged principals as a lawyer) because it makes her feel better. At least when Haley broke Celia's code, it was out of actual necessity.

The principles of the job don't trump her principles as a person. But other then that, yeah. I'm not trying to justify what she was doing there. In her mind, sacrificing her friendship with Haley was worth saving those lives, but just because Hank would hold up a deal doesn't mean Bozzack would. Attempting to make the deal wasn't a mistake, but Haley never should have accepted it.

Anyways, I do like Celia as a character, and I do like her time in the story. I feel she gets a lot more flack than she deserves. That being said though, she is very much an antagonist to Haley. She's a pacifist who does not respect Haley's leadership at all, and much like Belkar, needs to be actively managed on an adventure. Just instead of murdering people and setting things on fire, she makes bad deals and gets herself into trouble. Unlike Belkar, she doesn't have the some 500 strips needed to actually get the character development to change out of being a problematic adventurer.

[Morgana]

I really don't understand why it would need to be explicitedly said that Haley in fact did not trust the people that she hated her whole life, tried to kill her, where murderous psycopaths and had were extremely self serving and vengeful. And I honestly can't wrap my head around how not botching the deal was a mistake, but making the deal in the first place wasn't.

[KorvinStarmast]

1. Strip 669 establishes that Roy's love interest will not be traveling with the Order. Her exposition on how she just doesn't get it ("it" being adventuring) is (as I read it) meant to be a way to underscore that point.

2. Roy and Haley and that 10 GP - that was part of a running joke that goes back a few hundred strips.
I think sometimes people overlook the Haley = Greedy bit as having a powerful anchor in "I need 200k GP to get Dad back." (Granted, the OoTPCs exposition on that score may not be as readily apparent to those who have not read that prequel) . But she was also established as greedy in the first 100 strips.

3. Seven weeks from Roy and company leaving on a boat for Western Continent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html), not sure how many days in BRitF, and about a week since Durkon got vamped, and Belkar's demise arrives.

Time line wise, where are we now as of strip 1178?

[Morgana]

And like, why are you even continuing to use the 10 gp thing as evidence? It's a joke, based entirely around a hyperbole of a character's existing character traits, just how there are jokes about Roy being Lawful Stupid even though he is one of the more sensible Lawful types we see in the comic and at points barely even qualifies as Lawful to begin with. A character trait being subject of a joke doesn't tell you anything other than "yeah, that sure is a trait that character has", hell there was a joke where Durkon's mom thought Roy was Elan because he was clueless about something, would that be evidence that Roy is extremely dumb? No, because jokes by their very definition aren't accurate portrayals of reality, which often the reason why they're even funny in the first place.

Also, yes risking her life for other people when she has nothing to gain is an evidence that she values innocent lives more than gold, as you know...it's generally agreed upon that being dead is not really good for your financial health. Unless you're trying to imply that she values gold more than her own life?

[Forum Explorer]

I really don't understand why it would need to be explicitedly said that Haley in fact did not trust the people that she hated her whole life, tried to kill her, where murderous psycopaths and had were extremely self serving and vengeful. And I honestly can't wrap my head around how not botching the deal was a mistake, but making the deal in the first place wasn't.

Making the deal likely saved Celia's life. She was pretty much at the mercy of Hank and his goons, and she didn't actually have any magic items with which to bribe them. What's more, it did reveal a subset of thieves that you could trust to honor the deal, namely Hank.

But Haley should know, and pretty much did know, that Bozzack would never honor said deal. She should have killed him, and negotiated a different deal with Hank.

[Morgana]

So Celia could complain even more about her being a cold blooded killer?

[Forum Explorer]

So Celia could complain even more about her being a cold blooded killer?

You say that like Haley isn't a cold blooded killer. But Crystal would say otherwise. :smallwink:

More seriously, it's not like Haley cared particularly much about Celia's opinion, nor did Celia really complain about her behavior all that much. Besides, it's not like the two have to get along. Characters are allowed to dislike each other. For that matter, you can like two characters, even if both of those characters dislike each other

In short, maybe Celia does complain about Haley being a cold blooded killer. Why is that a problem?

[Morgana]

Cause permanently damaging your relationship with the leader of your party's girlfriend is messy, and is generally an annoying thing to deal with? And she did complain, constantly, even while they were in life threatening situations for that matter. And that was when Haley didn't actually do anything other than constantly save her ass

[hamishspence]

"Failing to keep Belkar in check, or punish his crimes" was the main complaint early on.

[Forum Explorer]

Cause permanently damaging your relationship with the leader of your party's girlfriend is messy, and is generally an annoying thing to deal with? And she did complain, constantly, even while they were in life threatening situations for that matter. And that was when Haley didn't actually do anything other than constantly save her ass

And she did that anyways.

Reread the fight, Celia doesn't complain once during the rogue fight, and in escaping Grubwiggler, her only complaint is that no, law school doesn't teach her the strengths and weaknesses of flesh golems. Before that, she wasn't in any life threatening situations. For that matter, Haley saves her once from Grubwiggler, and Celia saves her from Bozzack's coup de grace, so I'd call them even on that front.

[CriticalFailure]

And she did that anyways.

Reread the fight, Celia doesn't complain once during the rogue fight, and in escaping Grubwiggler, her only complaint is that no, law school doesn't teach her the strengths and weaknesses of flesh golems. Before that, she wasn't in any life threatening situations. For that matter, Haley saves her once from Grubwiggler, and Celia saves her from Bozzack's coup de grace, so I'd call them even on that front.

Yeah people are seriously exaggerating how much Celia complained and seriously diminishing how much she helped.

[Darth Paul]

Another way to look at Celia is in terms of the "civilian caught up in a military operation" trope. What usually happens is one of two things- either the civilian realizes how out of their depth they are and accepts the leadership of the elite special forces commander (see Tears of the Sun), or the civilian proves to be better than the military at negotiating the situation, by virtue of their special knowledge, and effectively takes command (Aliens is an excellent example). The Giant's genius is to avoid either of these resolutions and maintain both characters as individuals to the end, making their own decisions.

It would be disappointing to see Celia just go along and do everything Haley says. She would be a cardboard NPC, the flat character of too many campaigns. Instead she's a real person with her own ideas and motives. The kind that frustrates the PCs no end.

[Morgana]

Creating a frustrating character is not really genius though, firstly cause there's plenty of characters that fit the antagonist civilian in a situation of danger to the point where it's a trope of it self, second that this is becoming ever less common for the reason that is not very fun to read about honestly. It's not really entertaining to read 2 characters bicker for an entire book when that doesn't really lead anywhere and none of them ever come to any compromise and grow from it in any sort of way. Especially when one of the characters is someone no one is terribly invested to begin with, and displays behaviors that we literally had an entire book to show why they were dangerous

Even worse when we later find out that their whole nonesense plan did indeed backfire horribly and got a bunch of innocent people killed during Crystal's rampage

[hamishspence]

Every member of the Order displays "dangerous behaviour" in different ways.

Celia's way is different from the rest of the Order, and from Miko's.

[Morgana]

Yeah, but when they do it they're actually held accountable for it, Celia just poofs away and isn't even there during the whole Crystal ordeal

[hamishspence]

Even worse when we later find out that their whole nonesense plan did indeed backfire horribly and got a bunch of innocent people killed during Crystal's rampage

Crystal would not have been a golem to go on the rampage, if Haley had not first killed her, as revenge, and to "send a message to Bozzok".

Had Haley simply not bothered with killing Crystal in revenge for Crystal's attempts to kill her, and decided "settling accounts with Bozzok can wait till after the world is saved" - then chances are, all those thieves would have been resurrected.

So, in a sense, the reason the plan "backfired horribly" is because of Haley's intervention.

[Morgana]

Bozzok didn't cared at all for any of his minions, and they were all too low level to even be worth the gold it would take to ressurect them in the first place. The only thing that could have stopped him from doing anything of that nature was not giving the NE criminal warlord more gold than several nations have in their treasury

[Forum Explorer]

Creating a frustrating character is not really genius though, firstly cause there's plenty of characters that fit the antagonist civilian in a situation of danger to the point where it's a trope of it self, second that this is becoming ever less common for the reason that is not very fun to read about honestly. It's not really entertaining to read 2 characters bicker for an entire book when that doesn't really lead anywhere and none of them ever come to any compromise and grow from it in any sort of way. Especially when one of the characters is someone no one is terribly invested to begin with, and displays behaviors that we literally had an entire book to show why they were dangerous

Even worse when we later find out that their whole nonesense plan did indeed backfire horribly and got a bunch of innocent people killed during Crystal's rampage

You don't like Celia. That's fine, but try not to let that warp your view of the character too much. I don't find Celia frustrating at all, and I do think Haley grew from the experience. I don't think she would've learned to become more honest without her failures to communicate with Celia blowing up in her face so dramatically. For that matter, their bickering directly lead to Belkar's curse activating and prompting his own, quite frankly excellent, character development.

Also again, put the blame where it actually belongs. Crystal only began a half-golem because Haley killed her, and Bozzack ordered it done. Yeah, Bozzack would've still ordered Crystal to go after Haley, but that would've been more of just a straight up fight between the two of them. There would've been no rampage in that case.


Yeah, but when they do it they're actually held accountable for it, Celia just poofs away and isn't even there during the whole Crystal ordeal

It's funny, because you keep complaining about this, but the only way for this to happen is for Celia to join the Order as a full time member.

[Morgana]

I mean, he only did it cause he had the gold to pay for it, and nothing would be stopping him from just using the gold in any other way that would lead to a similar result. And there is another way of fixing that, which would be well, not having it be a consequence of Celia's actions in the first place

[Forum Explorer]

I mean, he only did it cause he had the gold to pay for it, and nothing would be stopping him from just using the gold in any other way that would lead to a similar result. And there is another way of fixing that, which would be well, not having it be a consequence of Celia's actions in the first place

Oh sure, like I said earlier, Haley accepting the deal was a mistake. She should've killed Bozzack anyways. Attempting to make the deal saved Celia's life, and likely saved Hank's life too. Plus Hank's goons. So I can't say that was a mistake.

[hamishspence]

Attempting to make the deal saved Celia's life, and likely saved Hank's life too. Plus Hank's goons. So I can't say that was a mistake.

The alternative was that the war with the Thieves Guild continue, and that Roy's body remain with Grubwiggler.

[Morgana]

Considering everyone was clawing for power, people would honestly be glad he was dead, and worry much more about trying to fit the power vacuum he left off and trying to restore any semblance of order. And it's not like there weren't other ways of getting Roy's body

[hamishspence]

Exactly what could Celia have offered:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html

that would not have resulted in her dying?

[Forum Explorer]

The alternative was that the war with the Thieves Guild continue, and that Roy's body remain with Grubwiggler.

With Bozack down, who was even left to fight? Getting Roy's body back from Grubwiggler would've been a problem, true. But not an insurmountable one.

[Morgana]

Well, she didn't needed to continue with the arrangement, just enough to get to Haley and Belkar. The thing is that she made the deal only partially to save her skin, but her primary goal was that she thought that was a preferable end to their situation

[hamishspence]

With Bozack down, who was even left to fight?

Hank and those with him.

In an alternate "Celia offers too little, Hank kills her, and arrives on the scene immediately after Haley and Belkar have killed Bozzok" scenario, chances are he'd have let them flee the house, at least, but then things would go pear-shaped.


Well, she didn't needed to continue with the arrangement, just enough to get to Haley and Belkar.

She's Lawful. Lawful people tend to stick to agreements once they've been made.

[Morgana]

Hank and his goons were weak enough that Belkar could probably have taken him out himself, he single handedly beat Crystal and she was the second in command of the guild, and not really for her tactical insight

[Schroeswald]

Hank and his goons were weak enough that Belkar could probably have taken him out himself, he single handedly beat Crystal and she was the second in command of the guild, and not really for her tactical insight
Citation needed on Crystal being the second in command, because if anything Hank was.

[Morgana]

I guess the better term would be a main enforcer, but never the less she was way stronger than all of the other people in the assault, and Belkar took her out while at a numerical disadvantage for a majority of the fight

[hamishspence]

IMO the real danger from Hank is that he's a lot smarter than Bozzok.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, she didn't needed to continue with the arrangement, just enough to get to Haley and Belkar. The thing is that she made the deal only partially to save her skin, but her primary goal was that she thought that was a preferable end to their situation

She's LG, she wasn't going to just break the deal. But yes, she did consider it a preferable end. The idea that Bozzack would later break the deal because it would never occur to her that someone would value vengeance more than someone else's life. If Bozzack was the sort of person to honor the deal, I would actually consider it to be a preferable end.

So yeah, I don't really consider it a mistake or a flaw for her to try and make the deal.

[Darth Paul]

Hank was second in command. Crystal was Bozzock's personal enforcer.

It's okay to be annoyed at Celia as a character for not going along with what Haley wanted; that's what provides the conflict and hence the story. But your contention therefore is that the story should have been "Haley, Belkar, and Celia drive a wagon to Cliffport, hire a cleric, and Roy gets resurrected." There's no character development in this half of the party. Belkar never loses the Mark of Justice and never begins even his fake character development (in fact, he probably ends up worse). It's not as good of a story. It's not even a story.

Celia provides the same antagonist role as Miko- an NPC with powers who doesn't go along with the party and drives the plot in unexpected directions. (This was already noted here.) But she's far more likeable as far as I'm concerned.

Haley doesn't exactly cover herself with glory in this arc either, and it's been pointed out to great length that just saying, "The Thieves Guild here has a price on my head and will kill me on sight," would have prevented the whole arc from taking place too. But no, she plays it cryptic and look what happens. Everyone is to blame, no one character exclusively. Celia made a rational choice with the information she had- take Roy to the nearest city and get him raised. At the time, the entire fighting strength of the party was one rogue and one sick halfling... who knows what might happen on the road to Cliffport? Get the fighter back on his feet. (Technically, get the fighter his feet back, but let's not quibble over details.)

[CriticalFailure]

Celia is also clearly desperate when she's making the deal. She says it goes against everything she's been taught and may the gods forgive her. It's not like it was just something she went out and did on a whim, she was backed into a corner and out of options.

[The Pilgrim]

Oh sure, like I said earlier, Haley accepting the deal was a mistake. She should've killed Bozzack anyways. Attempting to make the deal saved Celia's life, and likely saved Hank's life too. Plus Hank's goons. So I can't say that was a mistake.

The deal also enabled Haley to have the help of Bozzok, Crystal and the rest to retrieve Roy's body.

[Liquor Box]

I really don't understand why it would need to be explicitedly said that Haley in fact did not trust the people that she hated her whole life, tried to kill her, where murderous psycopaths and had were extremely self serving and vengeful. And I honestly can't wrap my head around how not botching the deal was a mistake, but making the deal in the first place wasn't.

Nobody has said any of those things. Nobody said the deal with the theives guild was a good idea. Nobody said that Celia was right to make the deal. Nobody has said that the thieves would use the money the way they said they would.

The only point here is that Hayley's objection to the deal was on the basis that her own money would be used. That is clear from the strip. Of course you can construct other background justifications, and they can't be disproven - but that is not what is suggested by the strip, it makes it obvious thatHayley's objection is the use of her money.


And like, why are you even continuing to use the 10 gp thing as evidence? It's a joke, based entirely around a hyperbole of a character's existing character traits, just how there are jokes about Roy being Lawful Stupid even though he is one of the more sensible Lawful types we see in the comic and at points barely even qualifies as Lawful to begin with. A character trait being subject of a joke doesn't tell you anything other than "yeah, that sure is a trait that character has", hell there was a joke where Durkon's mom thought Roy was Elan because he was clueless about something, would that be evidence that Roy is extremely dumb? No, because jokes by their very definition aren't accurate portrayals of reality, which often the reason why they're even funny in the first place.


I'm not sure this was directed at me, but I'll answer anyway because the answer seems obvious. Some people disagree that you that it was just a joke, or think that if it was a joke it was one of those jokes that is uncomfortably funny because it merely exagerates the reality (Hayley wouldn't betray Roy for 10gp, but she might for a thousand). You disagree and think it was a joke that had no basis in Hayley's greed. That's fine, there's no way to prove who is right, so people are entitled to their own interpretation.


Also, yes risking her life for other people when she has nothing to gain is an evidence that she values innocent lives more than gold, as you know...it's generally agreed upon that being dead is not really good for your financial health. Unless you're trying to imply that she values gold more than her own life?

Well she does risk her own life for gold, so she does value gold at least more than a calculated risk to her life - indeed that's the whole reason she signs on with the order in the first place.

Also, every single person in the order including the evil ones, and a whole host of supporting characters (including some evil ones) risk their lives for people (often their allies). Risking your life is a lower bar in the OotSverse because of the possibility of being raised (Roy actually explains this to Celia in the very strip we are discussing).

Sorry Morgana, the mere fact that she helps others in the course of her adventuring career does not show that she values people more than money - everyone does that (even the likes of Tarquin and Belkar).

[Morgana]

Haley wouldn't betray Roy for any amount, as you know...if Roy loses she'll be erased from existence, this is not me saying she isn't greedy, just that this is a really bad example of the extent of this trait. Also, yeah Haley did risk her life to earn more gold, that doesn't mean she values gold more than her own life, just that she believes the odds of her dying are low enough that she's willing to risk it to get her fortune, which is also tied to getting her dad back. Now the case of Azure city is one where there was no calculus of such kind, it was an icredibly high chance of her dying, and no personal gain of her own, same goes for rescuing Elan from the bandits considering how at that point he wasn't awfully useful for the party. Furthermore, Tarquin and that point Belkar had never shown such inclination, Belkar was motivated by wanting to kill things and just reveling on other people's miseries, and when Tarquin helped the party it was off of a desire to help solidify his legacy.

And valueing other people over personal gain is very much the definition of the good alignment, and if Haley indeed valued gold more than people she'd be in the Chaotic Neutral camp, which she wasn't

[Squire Doodad]

I think you guys are missing that Haley is Chaotic Good. And even if she wasn't, being greedy is her character trait, not an unbearable lust for gold.

Assuming that because she is a Rogue is vaguely understandable, but after you've actually gotten to know someone assuming they are insatiably greedy just because they are a Rogue is a terrible mindset. Haley looks out for herself, but she isn't about to let terrible things happen because she can get a few cents out of it.

...well, not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html) for a while.

[Morgana]

Yeah, that comic is pretty off character, but then again early instalment weirdness is not something uncommon to this comic. I hardly believe that Redcloak watching 2 dwarves have sex with the monster in the darkness is also consistent with what we know of him by now

Edit: Not have sex WITH him, but WATCH with him

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah, that comic is pretty off character, but then again early instalment weirdness is not something uncommon to this comic. I hardly believe that Redcloak watching 2 dwarves have sex with the monster in the darkness is also consistent with what we know of him by now

Frankly, I'd call that character growth instead of just early installment weirdness.

[Morgana]

Also could work, point is that during her whole deal with the guild she was in the CG alignment

[hamishspence]

I think the Giant stated outright, either on the forum or in commentary, that the reason for Redcloak's behaviour being so different in Dungeon Crawling Fools, was that he was traumatised by the events of Start of Darkness.

[The Pilgrim]

I'm not sure this was directed at me, but I'll answer anyway because the answer seems obvious. Some people disagree that you that it was just a joke, or think that if it was a joke it was one of those jokes that is uncomfortably funny because it merely exagerates the reality (Hayley wouldn't betray Roy for 10gp, but she might for a thousand). You disagree and think it was a joke that had no basis in Hayley's greed. That's fine, there's no way to prove who is right, so people are entitled to their own interpretation.

The mere fact that the "joke" could be made, is proof that Greed is one of Haley's main character traits. That "joke" wouldn't work if done on Durkon, Elan, or even Belkar.

[Schroeswald]

Haley wouldn't betray Roy for any amount, as you know...if Roy loses she'll be erased from existence, this is not me saying she isn't greedy, just that this is a really bad example of the extent of this trait. Also, yeah Haley did risk her life to earn more gold, that doesn't mean she values gold more than her own life, just that she believes the odds of her dying are low enough that she's willing to risk it to get her fortune, which is also tied to getting her dad back. Now the case of Azure city is one where there was no calculus of such kind, it was an icredibly high chance of her dying, and no personal gain of her own, same goes for rescuing Elan from the bandits considering how at that point he wasn't awfully useful for the party. Furthermore, Tarquin and that point Belkar had never shown such inclination, Belkar was motivated by wanting to kill things and just reveling on other people's miseries, and when Tarquin helped the party it was off of a desire to help solidify his legacy.

And valueing other people over personal gain is very much the definition of the good alignment, and if Haley indeed valued gold more than people she'd be in the Chaotic Neutral camp, which she wasn't

She values gold more than specific people, she would never pay to raise most of the thieves guild on her own, while I would place good money on Celia being willing to do that. Also, no she wouldn't betray Roy at that point in time for gold, but I promise you when she was hired she would be willing to betray Roy in the Dungeon of Dorukan, she skirted the boundary of Chaotic Good and Neutral for awhile in early strips, its still joke fundamentally based on the idea that Haley is a greedy miser, the fact that she would get a free ride was able to convince her to travel with Miko, she's definitely developed since then and isn't as money obsessed, but she still cleans all the gold, and a main part of her happy ending is making money, it's a core part of her character that is easy for friends to fall back on.

I think the Giant stated outright, either on the forum or in commentary, that the reason for Redcloak's behaviour being so different in Dungeon Crawling Fools, was that he was traumatised by the events of Start of Darkness.
Yeah, but that was mostly being submissive, and that is not the same as sitting down to watch some porn with the MiTD (and the real weird thing there is the MiTD acting much less childish than he usually does).

[Morgana]

Yes, greed is a character trait she has, doesn't mean she values gold more than people. Also, why is joke in quotation marks? Yes, it's a joke, it was a cute call back to a thing Haley said to Roy earlier on. Also, why is she not wanting to revive the guild members even a telling she values people's lives more or less than is normal? I don't see any other party member actively trying to ressurect those that they killed, hell, they were straight up going to execute the Linear Guild if it wasn't for the possibility of them being revived afterwards

[Darth Paul]

<massive snip>
the real weird thing there is the MiTD acting much less childish than he usually does

Yep, early installment weirdness in my book.

[Schroeswald]

Yes, greed is a character trait she has, doesn't mean she values gold more than people. Also, why is joke in quotation marks? Yes, it's a joke, it was a cute call back to a thing Haley said to Roy earlier on. Also, why is she not wanting to revive the guild members even a telling she values people's lives more or less than is normal? I don't see any other party member actively trying to ressurect those that they killed, hell, they were straight up going to execute the Linear Guild if it wasn't for the possibility of them being revived afterwards

It's enough for Celia (who didn't actually see any of the other events), because she values life more than anything, including logic sometimes, because that is how her character is written, she is the type of person who would give up all her money to raise the thieves guild (if she wasn't a college student with no money in the plane or, since she's in college, likely at all), and Roy will quietly nod his head to that assertion because he doesn't want to anger his girlfriend, recognizes that Haley is too greedy and that is somewhat of a problem to work with her, and still defend her and working with her to Celia.

[The Pilgrim]

Yeah, but that was mostly being submissive, and that is not the same as sitting down to watch some porn with the MiTD (and the real weird thing there is the MiTD acting much less childish than he usually does).

People sitting down to watch porn isn't exactly an uncommon occurence in real life.

[Schroeswald]

People sitting down to watch porn isn't exactly an uncommon occurence in real life.

Does that strike you as something Redcloak would do? With the MitD? Cause it doesn't seem like something he'd do to me (but its not that serious of early installment weirdness anyway, if he was doing that next time we saw him I wouldn't gasp and call it out of character, though y'know I would be confused on how we got to the point where this is going on), but as a different thing from his submissiveness to Xykon.

[CriticalFailure]

Haley's character has developed and she has become less irresponsible and more willing to put the good of others above her greed, but it's not like Roy and Celia are reading the story and observing her character development as it happens. When you change it takes a certain amount of time for people to realize and adjust their expectations.

As for Redcloak, comic 82 actually seems to be the first time his fussy attitude and dry humor come out. Prior to that he seems to just be servile to Xykon. Which makes sense because iirc 82 is the first comic where he's present without Xykon. Though I agree the whole watching dwarves have sex thing is kinda out of left field.

[Morgana]

I mean, watching people have sex without their consent is an uncommon thing. Or at least I hope so...Not that I'm gonna be mad that the evil cleric is doing a bad thing, is just that his brand of evil is much more of the waging a war against the gods and less creeply spying on dwarves

[Squire Doodad]

Yep, early installment weirdness in my book.


Does that strike you as something Redcloak would do? With the MitD? Cause it doesn't seem like something he'd do to me (but its not that serious of early installment weirdness anyway, if he was doing that next time we saw him I wouldn't gasp and call it out of character, though y'know I would be confused on how we got to the point where this is going on), but as a different thing from his submissiveness to Xykon.

For MitD it was early installment weirdness as his "mental age" was pretty much still being calibrated by Rich.

RC is a much longer and more complicated story, and probably calls for a closer reading of SoD and/or the CLG thread depending on how you want to interpret the "Crimson Mantle stops aging" idea (does it stop you at that point in your lifespan, will it allow natural aging to occur slowly until middle ageish, etc.).

[Schroeswald]

For MitD it was early installment weirdness as his "mental age" was pretty much still being calibrated by Rich.

RC is a much longer and more complicated story, and probably calls for a closer reading of SoD and/or the CLG thread depending on how you want to interpret the "Crimson Mantle stops aging" idea (does it stop you at that point in your lifespan, will it allow natural aging to occur slowly until middle ageish, etc.).

I mean, barring this Redcloak acts like no teenager I've ever met, even if from what I've heard Right-Eye accuses him of still being an angry teenager in it (SoD will eventually get here, soon enough I'll be basing this on my knowledge)

[Morgana]

Right-Eye wasn't being literal, Redcloak wasn't literally the same person he was when he first put on the cloak, since throughout the whole book he falls deeper and deeper on a slippery slope, and considering what we later see him do his mental stats also increased. What he meant was that knowing your time is limited and feeling your body grow weaker gives you a perspective and appreciation for your life and that of others that Redcloak lacked

[Darth Paul]

People sitting down to watch porn isn't exactly an uncommon occurence in real life.

Hopefully, watching people do it via the equivalent of a spy camera is. Although you never know with the number of hackers and web cams these days.

[CriticalFailure]

Right-Eye wasn't being entirely literal, but I do think he was saying that Redcloak hadn't really matured since he put on the cloak and that that was why he was going in the direction he was. In that he has gained a lot of skills and life experience that has made him good at leading large organizations, military tactics, evil scheming, negotiating evil workplace politics, and so forth, but hasn't become better at taking responsibility as a leader, understanding his duties towards the people he leads, having normal adult interactions, etc.

[The Pilgrim]

I mean, watching people have sex without their consent is an uncommon thing. Or at least I hope so...Not that I'm gonna be mad that the evil cleric is doing a bad thing, is just that his brand of evil is much more of the waging a war against the gods and less creeply spying on dwarves

Being curious about such things is a trans-alignment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html) issue.