An Odd Thought I had about Elan

[Mechalobster]

So, in the latest comic released (1178, to be precise), Uncle Squeaky describes Elan as a "certified bardic genius." This got me thinking: we've seen warriors more powerful than other members of the Order, like Tarquin, and heard about wizards more accomplished than Vaarsuvius, like his/her master Aarindarius. But we haven't yet seen anything about other famous bards on the same level.

Which got me wondering: is Elan, in fact, the most powerful bard currently on the face of Planet Stick?

[Morgana]

I think so, considering how bards seem to be rather rare, plus don't really care all that much about levels and power for the most part

[The Pilgrim]

Julio Scoundrel understands dramatics better than him. Yet, Julio is not a bard.

[Squire Doodad]

Like the "is Xykon the most powerful mortal in this world" question, I'm afraid we can't actually know XD
Still though, Elan does seem to be one of the few high level bards out there. He might not be the most powerful Bard, but given that clerics capable of casting True Resurrection are almost mythical, he's probably pretty high up. I mean, if the standard healer class almost never hits Epic, then I doubt there would be many Bards who do either.

[Schroeswald]

Julio Scoundrel understands dramatics better than him. Yet, Julio is not a bard.

Do we actually know Julio’s starting (pre-Dashing Swordsman) class? I mean he probably started as a rogue but he could have started as bard.

[Squire Doodad]

Do we actually know Julio’s starting (pre-Dashing Swordsman) class? I mean he probably started as a rogue but he could have started as bard.

I don't quite recall but I think it was a melee class? That might just be my own inference though.

[Morgana]

I assume swashbuckler

[The Pilgrim]

Do we actually know Julio’s starting (pre-Dashing Swordsman) class? I mean he probably started as a rogue but he could have started as bard.

I have never seen him cast a single spell. Or sign. Or play an instrument.

[Sniccups]

Like the "is Xykon the most powerful mortal in this world" question, I'm afraid we can't actually know XD
Still though, Elan does seem to be one of the few high level bards out there. He might not be the most powerful Bard, but given that clerics capable of casting True Resurrection are almost mythical, he's probably pretty high up. I mean, if the standard healer class almost never hits Epic, then I doubt there would be many Bards who do either.

I agree with this. I'd think Elan is definitely in the top five or so bards in existence.
(I'm the one who posted that question about Xykon)

Do you think Elan could become a huge celebrity or something after the adventure is over?

[Squire Doodad]

I agree with this. I'd think Elan is definitely in the top five or so bards in existence.
(I'm the one who posted that question about Xykon)

Do you think Elan could become a huge celebrity or something after the adventure is over?

Nonsense: Elan is already a huge celebrity! He's the world-famous Bard, the former protector of the great Lord Hinjo, and apprentice to none other than Julio Scoundrel himself! To say nothing of the Western continent.

Okay, he might not be a celebrity, but he has had quite a few adventures that would have led to him probably being a pretty big name for this generation, at least in the Southern and probably Western Continents (Tarquin might have swiftly blotted him out of any newspapers or anything).

[D.One]

I agree with this. I'd think Elan is definitely in the top five or so bards in existence.
(I'm the one who posted that question about Xykon)

Do you think Elan could become a huge celebrity or something after the adventure is over?

Epilogue:

Elan and Haley move to live in Firmament, and Elan forms a band with the two dwarven bards called Tha Rollin' Stones.

[KorvinStarmast]

Elan took X levels in a prestige class: (one? Two? Three? Hard to say) Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), right?

[Squire Doodad]

Elan took X levels in a prestige class: (one? Two? Three? Hard to say) Dashing Swordsman, right?

Yes, he at least one level in Dashing Swordsman, possibly a second level but I don't recall.
He mostly has levels in Bardism, though he also seems to have a few as a Cleric given Banjo.

[Schroeswald]

Elan took X levels in a prestige class: (one? Two? Three? Hard to say) Dashing Swordsman, right?

1+ levels of it according to C&LG.

[HorizonWalker]

It's entirely plausible that Julio Scoundrel is also a Bard. Let's go back to when we were first introduced to the Dashing Swordsman prestige class. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)

"Not many know this, but I have only average Strength and Dexterity scores. [...] At any rate, I have only this book to thank for it, not any surplus of physical prowess on my part."

Now, sure, maybe Julio was one of those Rogues who can barely hit the broad side of a barn... but given his frequently-remarked-upon promiscuity and sex appeal, I'm more than willing to bet that yes, he's got a few levels in Bard.

[Squire Doodad]

It's entirely plausible that Julio Scoundrel is also a Bard. Let's go back to when we were first introduced to the Dashing Swordsman prestige class. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html)

"Not many know this, but I have only average Strength and Dexterity scores. [...] At any rate, I have only this book to thank for it, not any surplus of physical prowess on my part."

Now, sure, maybe Julio was one of those Rogues who can barely hit the broad side of a barn... but given his frequently-remarked-upon promiscuity and sex appeal, I'm more than willing to bet that yes, he's got a few levels in Bard.

He might have been a Rogue that had a perfect CHA score and average stats elsewhere, and he just went with Rogue because he planned on smooth talking his way in while his..."associates" stole everything there was. And then a few levels later he found the Dashing Swordsman book and become as unto a medium-sized charismatic god.

He probably has at least one level in Bard given his character (the ladies love a good song and all that), though I don't think he specialized in it as a pre-Dashing Swordsman.

[Schroeswald]

He might have been a Rogue that had a perfect CHA score and average stats elsewhere, and he just went with Rogue because he planned on smooth talking his way in while his..."associates" stole everything there was. And then a few levels later he found the Dashing Swordsman book and become as unto a medium-sized charismatic god.

He probably has at least one level in Bard given his character (the ladies love a good song and all that), though I don't think he specialized in it as a pre-Dashing Swordsman.

We know he took at least four levels of something besides Dashing Swordsman (and probably a bit more), so maybe he took a few of each.

[Squire Doodad]

We know he took at least four levels of something besides Dashing Swordsman (and probably a bit more), so maybe he took a few of each.

I wonder what the additional ranks of Dashing Swordsman get you?
The CHA/STR substitution seems to be on the first level, and I'd imagine that shattered glass immunity is minor enough that it would be the first level as well...

[Schroeswald]

I wonder what the additional ranks of Dashing Swordsman get you?
The CHA/STR substitution seems to be on the first level, and I'd imagine that shattered glass immunity is minor enough that it would be the first level as well...
Maybe some feats? I feel like it might borrow some later-level class features from fighters and Rogues, and then the basic attack bonuses that come with most classes (that would be higher with puns).

[Morgana]

I feel like an ability to taunt the enemy in some way, or some sort of flashy manouver of some kind, maybe an ability that let's you substitute add CHA in some types of DEX checks? Just feels like a big part of the dashing swordsman is jumping and tumbling from place to place, so it would make sense if it had an ability to help with that

[Schroeswald]

I feel like an ability to taunt the enemy in some way, or some sort of flashy manouver of some kind, maybe an ability that let's you substitute add CHA in some types of DEX checks? Just feels like a big part of the dashing swordsman is jumping and tumbling from place to place, so it would make sense if it had an ability to help with that
I’d say a sneak attack where you need to jump through something. I would agree with yours to, maybe you can get rid of/decrease fall damage by making a quip.

[Squire Doodad]

I feel like an ability to taunt the enemy in some way, or some sort of flashy manouver of some kind, maybe an ability that let's you substitute add CHA in some types of DEX checks? Just feels like a big part of the dashing swordsman is jumping and tumbling from place to place, so it would make sense if it had an ability to help with that

You already get to substitute STR for CHA, also being able to substitute DEX for CHA would possibly be overpowered. However, if you mean things like escaping from ropes and the like (a feat frequently achieved by quite a few adventurous dashing gallants), that would make sense thematically.

I'd imagine it would be things such as breaking out from ropes, being able to mitigate the effect of strong winds on you during your climatic rooftop battles, and having the option to roll for CHA to reduce sliding distance from ice and slippery tile.
You know, Hollywood style battle features.

The level 9 version grants you "Spontaneous Baysplosion" as a once-per-extended rest spell

[Schroeswald]

You know I’d love to see if someone wrote up a Dashing Swordsman class

[Squire Doodad]

You know I’d love to see if someone wrote up a Dashing Swordsman class

I think Rich himself did it a few years back, but I can't recall where it was.

[RatElemental]

I don't know if Rich ever did, but The Demented One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?29882-The-Dashing-Swordsman-PrC) put in a valiant effort. I'm sure many others have as well.

[Algeh]

Do we actually know Julio’s starting (pre-Dashing Swordsman) class? I mean he probably started as a rogue but he could have started as bard.

How is he not in Class and Level Geekery yet? I feel that there is probably (a) a good reason that (b) I am not going to read through enough threads to find.

[RatElemental]

How is he not in Class and Level Geekery yet? I feel that there is probably (a) a good reason that (b) I am not going to read through enough threads to find.

I'd guess it's to do with him having only 16 appearances, counting bonus strips, in the entire comic. Just not much to go on.

[Schroeswald]

I'd guess it's to do with him having only 16 appearances, counting bonus strips, in the entire comic. Just not much to go on.

The grand total of the information we have about him isn’t much either, I imagine if we had a bit more he’d get in (the OOTS Wiki records everyone’s stats and it has his level at 14+, the fact he has average strength and dexterity, at least 14 charisma and dashing Swordsman class abilities).

[D.One]

How is he not in Class and Level Geekery yet? I feel that there is probably (a) a good reason that (b) I am not going to read through enough threads to find.

We know too little about him. Even the estimates on the Wiki are a bit vague.

[HorizonWalker]

I'd argue that it doesn't feel like he's a Rogue. Sure, he's a pirate. He robs people. But we only hear about it, and what we see of him is a man who loves a good story, both as a spectator and a participant.

But, well, being an intuition and a feeling, it's kinda hard to prove.

[D.One]

With all the Chaos theme, he's certainly no Paladin or Monk. I wouldn't preclude, however, an ex-Monk, due to some contrived background story where, during his first travels, he met and was trained by a drunken master, before he becoming Chaotic.

[Lord Torath]

I could see Julio as a bard with Perform (Seductive Poetry) as his performance skill. Or a swashbuckler who cross-classed into that skill.

As for the Dashing Swordsman class, Rich has said he will never write down the details. By keeping it undescribed, he maintains it in a superposition similar to Haley's Wands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html): it has whatever abilities and powers he needs it to have.

[Squire Doodad]

I could see Julio as a bard with Perform (Seductive Poetry) as his performance skill. Or a swashbuckler who cross-classed into that skill.

As for the Dashing Swordsman class, Rich has said he will never write down the details. By keeping it undescribed, he maintains it in a superposition similar to Haley's Wands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html): it has whatever abilities and powers he needs it to have.

That's all well and good for the time being, but it looks like it's such a fun class to use (punnery for bonus damage? Heck yeah!) that I really hope details are written up sometime after the comic ends. That may well be in half a decade, but still it would be nice to use it.

And if he doesn't write it, we probably will XD

[HorizonWalker]

That's all well and good for the time being, but it looks like it's such a fun class to use (punnery for bonus damage? Heck yeah!) that I really hope details are written up sometime after the comic ends. That may well be in half a decade, but still it would be nice to use it.

And if he doesn't write it, we probably will XD

If you don't mind moving on to 5th Edition, then the Swashbuckler archetype for Rogues serves as a pretty good approximation. You get Charisma to Initiative, and can Sneak Attack any opponent within five feet of you, so long as that opponent is the only opponent within five feet of you. It's not a perfect approximation of the Dashing Swordsman, admittedly- no fabled "Charisma bonus to attack"(for that, you'd need three levels of Paladin of Devotion)- but I reckon it's reasonably close.

[RatElemental]

And if he doesn't write it, we probably will XD

Oh it's been done already, doubtlessly countless times. But on the forums here, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?29882-The-Dashing-Swordsman-PrC) is the only one I can find.

[Squire Doodad]

Oh it's been done already, doubtlessly countless times. But on the forums here, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?29882-The-Dashing-Swordsman-PrC) is the only one I can find.

Oooh, nice!

[GrayGriffin]

Actually, according to the digital bonus content in Don't Split the Party, Rich did have plans to write up Dashing Swordsman as part of a larger OotS-based sourcebook. Though it's now very unlikely that he'll actually finish it.

[Schroeswald]

Actually, according to the digital bonus content in Don't Split the Party, Rich did have plans to write up Dashing Swordsman as part of a larger OotS-based sourcebook. Though it's now very unlikely that he'll actually finish it.

I’ve never played D&D (though I do want to get into it), and I would definitely buy an Oots sourcebook if one was ever made.

[AchtungNight]

I wouldn't be surprised if Elan was among the highest level Bards in the world, but I doubt he's the highest. He's not a professional performer outside his adventuring, after all. I'd expect someone like Elton John, Sting, or Joan Jett to translate to a high level Bard in D&D terms and Elan isn't quite on their level. Nor is he on the level of Deadpool, who according to this video* is also a high level Bard in D&D terms. He's also not a God of Bards. But we do need someone to judge him against, and so far we don't have anyone like that. Then again, a high level Evil Bard villain is quite hard to pull off (but would be cool to see if done well).

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV7Ev7DobDc

[CriticalFailure]

Then again, a high level Evil Bard villain is quite hard to pull off (but would be cool to see if done well).

Why is it hard to pull off? I haven't GMed much but have thought about trying to do a low level oneshot or something with a low-mid level bard as the main bad guy. Is it just because the bard is such a support orientated class?

[Squire Doodad]

Why is it hard to pull off? I haven't GMed much but have thought about trying to do a low level oneshot or something with a low-mid level bard as the main bad guy. Is it just because the bard is such a support orientated class?

The point is the transition from a mid-level to a high level character can seriously alter the set up of the battle. While a mid level support-oriented character might have some relevant skills for that point in the story to be a serious threat (think FFV's Blue Mage and Flamethrower/Thousand Needles/Aera), they might become vastly weaker at a later point without being basically a different class altogether or relying on a gimmick (traps that make fog everywhere, wind staff thing, etc.) instead of the class's own specialties. If the class runs out of viable offensive options by the time they become high-level, then it is complicated to give them a good fight without them being supporting a group of elite bodyguards instead (that Blue Mage has White Wind and Level 2 Old, but outside of Aeroga with an Air Knife and a few Level X skills they can't really do a lot of damage that a boss wouldn't be immune to like fractional damage or near-death blows).

Within a story like this, you don't want to have the boss be protected by a series of goons with no climatic battle with the actual person. It can be done well, but it is much much trickier than just having the villain be clashing swords with the hero while everyone fights the various assisting foes.

A Bard in particular is hard to do because you basically run into a dungeon and sing at people. That's a problem in of itself, and not exactly something you see someone doing as an antagonist unless they are charming people.

[HorizonWalker]

Just make the Bard boss dabble in Necromancy. Call them the Necrodancer. What, you think a few dozen zombies are beneath you? How about when the Level 18 Necrodancer is using Dragonfire Inspiration to give the zombies something in the neighborhood of +12d6 Acid Damage to their attacks?

[RatElemental]

Just make the Bard boss dabble in Necromancy. Call them the Necrodancer. What, you think a few dozen zombies are beneath you? How about when the Level 18 Necrodancer is using Dragonfire Inspiration to give the zombies something in the neighborhood of +12d6 Acid Damage to their attacks?

Even better, have him steal the party's hearts so they're cursed to move to the beat of the music he's playing or die.

[HorizonWalker]

Even better, have him steal the party's hearts so they're cursed to move to the beat of the music he's playing or die.

Need a soundtrack? Not anymore you don't. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-KdDvwrDFA&list=OLAK5uy_kCauGPYNXpDFaCqA6gbHSrwCY_QxFBTsc)

[Chronos]

Yeah, Elton John and Sting are high-level bards. But when they sing, does everyone on both sides of a huge battle stop to listen? Elan is not on Elton John's level, because he's far past it.

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah, Elton John and Sting are high-level bards. But when they sing, does everyone on both sides of a huge battle stop to listen? Elan is not on Elton John's level, because he's far past it.

Elton John is just a level 9 Bard whose DM let him take surprisingly lucrative quests without realizing what it would do, and then retired early.

[Emanick]

Yeah, Elton John and Sting are high-level bards. But when they sing, does everyone on both sides of a huge battle stop to listen? Elan is not on Elton John's level, because he's far past it.

Well, strictly speaking, we don't know if Elton John and Sting are sufficiently high-level to stop battles with the pathos of their music, because it hasn't been tested yet. Sounds like someone needs to fly them out to one For Science.

[Doctor West]

So... would that make this (https://youtu.be/9yWpFWhmdnw) another example of a high level bard in fiction then?

[woweedd]

Weirdly enough, in 5th Edition, Bards are freaking TERRIFYING. They have access to every skill AND every spell in the game, and their ability to double their proficiency bonus for certain skills, and add half their proficiency bonus to ANY check that doesn't already include it means that whatever they're bad at, they're good at, and whatever they're good at, they're AMAZING at. Particularly College of Lore, who can use their Inspiration to increase their bonus even more. When it comes to Skills, Bards crack the system wide open. But, even in 3rd Edition, I think Bards can work as villains: Just a different sort then the kind you see in dungeons. As villains, I think they work best not as physical threats inandofthemsleves, but as Mastermind/Planner types. The problem isn't fighting them: It's even getting to them when they're hidden behind layers of illusions, traps, and the guy you arrested could be a decoy. Think someone like Myserio or The Riddler: Sure, they're physical pushovers by themselves, but that's not the issue: The issue is even figuring out where they are, and then getting there. Or, hell, think the Joker to the Wizard's Batman. An insanely-charismatic madman who always has another trick up his sleeve, is willing to use every resource, especially people, and whose illusions and sheer insanity ensure you can't out-plan him because you don't know what his plan even is. A high-level Bard is the type of guy who will build a massive Ice-themed dungeon...Then plop a Red Dragon as the final boss, and kick back eating popcorn as you find yourself preparing for an entirely different opponent. So much for Protection From Energy when it's protecting you from Cold rather then Fire.

[Squire Doodad]

Weirdly enough, in 5th Edition, Bards are freaking TERRIFYING. They have access to every skill AND every spell in the game, and their ability to double their proficiency bonus for certain skills, and add half their proficiency bonus to ANY check that doesn't already include it means that whatever they're bad at, they're good at, and whatever they're good at, they're AMAZING at. Particularly College of Lore, who can use their Inspiration to increase their bonus even more. When it comes to Skills, Bards crack the system wide open. But, even in 3rd Edition, I think Bards can work as villains: Just a different sort then the kind you see in dungeons. As villains, I think they work best not as physical threats inandofthemsleves, but as Mastermind/Planner types. The problem isn't fighting them: It's even getting to them when they're hidden behind layers of illusions, traps, and the guy you arrested could be a decoy. Think someone like Myserio or The Riddler: Sure, they're physical pushovers by themselves, but that's not the issue: The issue is even figuring out where they are, and then getting there. Or, hell, think the Joker to the Wizard's Batman. An insanely-charismatic madman who always has another trick up his sleeve, is willing to use every resource, especially people, and whose illusions and sheer insanity ensure you can't out-plan him because you don't know what his plan even is. A high-level Bard is the type of guy who will build a massive Ice-themed dungeon...Then plop a Red Dragon as the final boss, and kick back eating popcorn as you find yourself preparing for an entirely different opponent. So much for Protection From Energy when it's protecting you from Cold rather then Fire.

So...Tarquin, if he wasn't Elan's father and so showed himself immediately.

Bards as the archetype the class can be are good and work well since they make for good high-end villains, but in terms of dungeon bosses they tend to not work quite as well (especially in a solo boss or a boss with just a few minions) if they primarily make use of a Bard's talents.

[woweedd]

So...Tarquin, if he wasn't Elan's father and so showed himself immediately.

Bards as the archetype the class can be are good and work well since they make for good high-end villains, but in terms of dungeon bosses they tend to not work quite as well (especially in a solo boss or a boss with just a few minions) if they primarily make use of a Bard's talents.
I was thinking more "Tarquin, if he was Choatic", themed entirely around forcing even a master planner to react rather then plan.

[Squire Doodad]

I was thinking more "Tarquin, if he was Choatic", themed entirely around forcing even a master planner to react rather then plan.

But what about a master planar? :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

I’ve never played D&D (though I do want to get into it), and I would definitely buy an Oots sourcebook if one was ever made. FWIW, rogue has Swashbuckler in D&D 5e which seems very similar.

[Schroeswald]

FWIW, rogue has Swashbuckler in D&D 5e which seems very similar.

I mean I imagine a Dashing Swordsman class is not the only cool thing in whatever an OOTS sourcebook could contain, but I’ll check out the swashbuckler class whenever I get 5e.