What's the closest i can get to playing a death knight without actually being one.

[Voidstar01]

So I was re-reading some Dragonlance books, and Lord Soth showed up, Lord Soth is cool, and I want to play as something like him, Deathknights are kinda off the table, evil games are hard to find and deathknights have +5 LA, so what can I do to play a Not-A-Deathknight?

[tyckspoon]

Bone Knight is probably the closest 'standard' option - it's a Cleric and Paladin-friendly prestige class that has you make yourself a suit of bone armor and gains various undead-like traits and abilities through the levels. There's also several ways to become undead with fewer or no level penalties, so you can be Undead and then just do a class build that includes whatever abilities you think are neat to be a 'Death Knight.' The Necropolitan race has the most player-rules complete description, I think; otherwise you have to do things like ask your DM what the LA to be an Awakened Skeleton or a Dread Warrior is going to be.

[Silvercrys]

There are rules in the Ghostwalk Campaign Setting book for playing Ghosts, you could ask your DM about playing a Ghostwalk Ghost.

It's 3.0, though, or like 3.25 or something, so it needs a little updating. If your DM is willing to do away with The Calling you could just play a Paladin / Eidolon multiclass, or pure Paladin picking up some of the better Ghost feats like Flight, etc. from the book.

[Maat Mons]

There are a couple of challenges you'll face if you play an undead. One is that you won't have hit points from Constitution. Another is that you'll be vulnerable to certain undead-specific effects.

One way to deal with the HP issue is to use the Walker in the Waste prestige class. When you finish the class, you become a special type of lich that gains bonus HP equal to your hit dice times your Charisma bonus. If you don't want to wait until such high level to become undead, you can apparently still enter the class and become a lich even if you were already some type of undead before.

Walker in the Waste has a poor base attack bonus, but if your DM is fine with DMM Persist, you can ignore that with an all-day Divine might.

Bone Knight, as mentioned above, gives you most of the benefits of being undead without any of the downsides. If you really don't want to die of old age or need to breath or anything, it looks like a Warforged with Unarmored body could still become a Bone Knight and gain all the class' benefits.

[enderlord99]

Having read the title, but not content, of the original post, I feel the urge to ask if Eyes of Fear and Flame can have class levels, specifically in Soulknife.

[Falontani]

Having read the title, but not content, of the original post, I feel the urge to ask if Eyes of Fear and Flame can have class levels, specifically in Soulknife.

Yes however they have no listed la, meaning it's entirely within the dm's call.

As to the op, what kind of death knight are you wanting?

There is the Death Master class who is basically a wizard with a skeleton companion instead of a familiar who gets many bonuses as you progress, and can use blood as a material component to cast spells in armor.

There is the Bone Knight that was already talked about.

Osteomancer is a fun bone class that could fit your theme.

Cancer Mage can fit the wow death knight fairly well.

I would suggest a cleric into Bone Knight as the most straight forward.

[Voidstar01]

Yes however they have no listed la, meaning it's entirely within the dm's call.
As to the op, what kind of death knight are you wanting?
.

Well considering this idea was brought about by Lord Soth, bone knight feels like the best option, but I don't really want to give up the BAB to enter from cleric, are there any classes other than cleric or paladin that can enter the class? (the lack of a neutral aligned paladin cramps my style immensely)

[Lorddenorstrus]

Well considering this idea was brought about by Lord Soth, bone knight feels like the best option, but I don't really want to give up the BAB to enter from cleric, are there any classes other than cleric or paladin that can enter the class? (the lack of a neutral aligned paladin cramps my style immensely)

You're a cleric Bab is meaningless. Use Divine Power. I don't see how that's an issue?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd say go Cleric 4/ Warblade or Crusader 1/ Bone Knight, probably with the Pestilence and Cold domains, but the domains can very depending on the flavor of Death Knight you're going for.

If you want the character to be undead, use the Necropolitan template and benefit from having been created in a Fell Energy Desecrate with an evil altar present (+6 hp/level). If possible, also say your creator had at least eight levels of Dread Necromancer with all the Corpsecrafter line of feats (+4 Str and Dex, +2 turn resistance, +10 ft. land speed, +4 initiative, +2 natural armor, etc.).

[Voidstar01]

You're a cleric Bab is meaningless. Use Divine Power. I don't see how that's an issue?

the part where i'm relying on Str, Con, Wis, and Cha at the same time, Int also shouldn't be too dumpy (ride isn't a cleric class skill so I need to pump it with ranks). with a paladin I can at least leave Wis at 11 (lower with items). Also "greater dispel magic, your build turns off" seems like a bad time.

[Lorddenorstrus]

the part where i'm relying on Str, Con, Wis, and Cha at the same time, Int also shouldn't be too dumpy (ride isn't a cleric class skill so I need to pump it with ranks). with a paladin I can at least leave Wis at 11 (lower with items). Also "greater dispel magic, your build turns off" seems like a bad time.

If you're relying on that many stats at once you're building wrong. Use a feat to rekey Cleric spells from Wisdom to Charisma so you have the Cha to have more turn attempts. Dump Con entirely and pick up Necropolitan instead. I've built a Cleric/Boneknight before it's easy and very powerful. Int? that's a joke right, *cough* Cloistered Cleric? 6 skills / level? It's reaaally easy to get into Bone Knight with a tiny amount of optimization and be very functional and powerful. Also Dispel Magic legit? wat?. if DMM clerics got shut down so easily it wouldn't be one of the most banned /broken routes for a cleric. one bonuses to caster level, easy to do from just picked spells at mid - high level. 2 easy but gotta spend WBL, Ring of Counterspells keyed to Dispel Magic. 3 Using strategy and simply gathering information on foes before rushing in like an idiot to get countered so easily in the first place. I have never actually had that kinda crap happen to me in a game for this very reason. 4th, Contingency accessed via Time Domain. comes with improved initiative to boot.

[Silvercrys]

Yes however they have no listed la, meaning it's entirely within the dm's call.

As to the op, what kind of death knight are you wanting?

There is the Death Master class who is basically a wizard with a skeleton companion instead of a familiar who gets many bonuses as you progress, and can use blood as a material component to cast spells in armor.

There is the Bone Knight that was already talked about.

Osteomancer is a fun bone class that could fit your theme.

Cancer Mage can fit the wow death knight fairly well.

I would suggest a cleric into Bone Knight as the most straight forward.Spoilers for Dragonlance novels within:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Soth

Paladin 4 gains entry to Bone Knight earliest, though you can't return to Paladin after entering Bone Knight and Cleric 10/Bone Knight 10 is probably strictly more powerful due to spell levels (and gives you stuff Soth has shown in the novels, he's apparently capable of casting some pretty high level spells).

If you're starting at a low level, Necropolitan Paladin or Cleric is your best bet, I think, to play a not-death knight. Though some DMs will probably take a dim view of you trying to start play with a template that's supposed to cost you 1 level + 1000 xp + 2000 gp, heh. Being a Paladin and turning yourself into an undead creature might not fly, either, at least if you go Cleric you can be a neutral cleric of a Death deity or something.

You can also use the Vampire template class from the Wizard's archive here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). As long as you're starting above level 1 you can begin play as a Vampire 1/Cleric X and just never take any more levels of the Vampire class. That article series has a Ghost template class, as well.

There's also Grave-Touched Ghoul from Libris Mortis, but it's LA+2. Not a bad template, especially if you can buy off the LA at level 6 and level 9.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

(the lack of a neutral aligned paladin cramps my style immensely)

Hmm, you could go into Grey Guard (Complete Scoundrel) for some flexibility with your paladin (or cleric, I suppose) oaths, but that's still probably a little too 'goody two shoes'.

Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) for Rebuke Undead with the Southern Magician feat to cast your spells as divine a couple of times per day is worth looking at; it doesn't have full BAB, but does seem very in line with what you're looking for flavor-wise as an alternative to Cleric. You could even potentially skip Bone Knight entirely, as DN already has the pseudo-undead thing going for it without requiring you to be any lower on the alignment chart than Neutral.

[Mr Adventurer]

Probably Duskblade with the Lich template, or A-game Paladin with the Lich template (will require some alignment based houseruling). Not sure that'll meet your more specific requirements though.

[darkela5]

The best bone knight would be if you can go cleric to meet prestige paladin prereq than take 3 level of it and than go into bone knight.
You would loose one caster level over cleric/bone knight but gain
- divine grace (get serenity to key this off wisdom)
-lay on hand (can heal undead now) (get serenity to key this off wisdom)
- special mount (now in the 11-14 paladin level range)
- aura of courage
- divine health
- rebuke undead (get serenity to key this off wisdom)
Because the bone knight allows you to regain some of your lost paladin abilities.
Also ask your dm if the serenity feat can apply to bone knight abilities as it is literately paladin + undead class.

[AnimeTheCat]

He seems most closely akin to a Sorcerer/Fighter combination based on this line from the Wiki you linked:


Soth also can cast various type of spells, including huge fireballs, magical words which stun or kill enemies, ice walls, cone of cold, etc. With a single word, Soth can snuff the life out of a red dragon (thus Power Word: Kill), or shatter the great city gate of Palanthas, which was formerly known as the "Unconquered City".

So, in my mind the fact that he's undead is really the only thing making him a death knight. You can have all the features of him without being an undead as being undead doesn't seem to effect his combat abilities. You could probably get a completely passable or good example of him by building a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer straight up (or perhaps a fighter/stalwart battle sorcerer/eldritch knight) and pick up the Battle Caster feat (Complete Arcane, pg 75) to wear medium armor with not Arcane Spell Failure chance. It's pretty classic Gish building so there are lots of guides on that. Pick the spells that most clearly support your image of the character.

If you're going undead, dump con since you don't need it, keep your Strength and Charisma highest and Dex high enough to max out your max dex bonus from your armor. You will still get arcane spell failure from your shield, but that's fine since you can just make it from mithral and negate that entirely (if you even want to use a shield).

There's really no reason to think about it too deeply IMO and the character's combat abilities seem more akin to a Sorcerer/Wizard spellcaster than a Cleric/Paladin spellcaster to me.

[Lorddenorstrus]

The best bone knight would be if you can go cleric to meet prestige paladin prereq than take 3 level of it and than go into bone knight.
You would loose one caster level over cleric/bone knight but gain
- divine grace (get serenity to key this off wisdom)
-lay on hand (can heal undead now) (get serenity to key this off wisdom)
- special mount (now in the 11-14 paladin level range)
- aura of courage
- divine health
- rebuke undead (get serenity to key this off wisdom)
Because the bone knight allows you to regain some of your lost paladin abilities.
Also ask your dm if the serenity feat can apply to bone knight abilities as it is literately paladin + undead class.

Not a bad build but it's more efficient to feat and rekey Cleric to charisma than grab serenity. The builds goal is to cut MAD not add extra stats. Cha is good as the casting stat. Pumps turn/rebuke for DMM.

[Mr Adventurer]

Never multiclass Battle Sorcerer, you lose all the advantages (improved chassis) but keep all the drawbacks (reduced spellcasting)

[AnimeTheCat]

Never multiclass Battle Sorcerer, you lose all the advantages (improved chassis) but keep all the drawbacks (reduced spellcasting)

sure, never multiclass a full caster... but if you're trying to create a specific character (Lord Soth) then picking up that one level of Fighter to get Medium/Heavy armor proficiency and all Martial Weapon proficiency for Eldritch Knight or some other Prestige Class is only 1 lost level out of a whole build. Hardly the most detrimental thing.

[Mr Adventurer]

sure, never multiclass a full caster... but if you're trying to create a specific character (Lord Soth) then picking up that one level of Fighter to get Medium/Heavy armor proficiency and all Martial Weapon proficiency for Eldritch Knight or some other Prestige Class is only 1 lost level out of a whole build. Hardly the most detrimental thing.

Not sure if you understood my post but I was talking about Battle Sorcerer specifically and not casters in general.

[Silvercrys]

Mr. Adventurer is right, losing one spell per day of each level isn't great when you're only getting +1 base attack and a couple of HP out of it.

Your bog standard sorcerer gish is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 for that reason, though if you can use the Dragonlance Campaign Setting and don't care for the Sacred Exorcist class features you can swap Sacred Exorcist for Knight of the Thorn or something. Could even swap Paladin for straight Fighter, you lose Cha to saves from Divine Grace but the build is pretty functional anyway.

[AnimeTheCat]

Not sure if you understood my post but I was talking about Battle Sorcerer specifically and not casters in general.

If you multiclass with something that has the same or better chasis, but no spellcasting (Knight/Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/etc) to then qualify for a prestige class (Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion) you're taking a minor penalty in the immediate for a better future. Also, the chasis of the Battle Sorcerer is 3/4 BAB and d8 HD. That's not that much of an improved chasis and is worse than pretty much any full BAB class (ranger being the exception). The only thing you're really missing out on is your spellcasting ability, which is the real reason you don't ever want to multi-class, unless it's in to something that advances spellcasting, hence why I stated you don't want to multiclass out of a full caster rather than just a battle sorcerer.

I think one of the most common builds (though I could be wrong) is Battle Sorcerer 4/Full BAB 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5. You only drop 1 spellcasting level and you always improve your non-spellcasting chasis (3/4 BAB from level 1-4, Full BAB 5-11, d8 HD at 1-4 and 6, d10 at 5 and 7-11). Tacking on Eldritch Knight to the end drops an additional spellcasting level, but continues Full BAB but does drop the HD to a d6 which is probably the most damaging part of it, so it becomes a matter of whether full BAB is more important or if HD is more important.

[liquidformat]

Not a bad build but it's more efficient to feat and rekey Cleric to charisma than grab serenity. The builds goal is to cut MAD not add extra stats. Cha is good as the casting stat. Pumps turn/rebuke for DMM.

what feat exactly are you using to rekey cleric casting to cha, I am not aware of one?

Anyways cleric/prestige paladin/bone knight is good as long as your dm lets you ignore the alignment restrictions on prestige paladin. Otherwise Cloistered Cleric4/Crusader2/Bone Knight is the best way to go. Going with DMM persist Divine Power and Righteous Might str is moot to your build.

Another interesting build to look at is Paladin of Tyranny 4 or 5/ Crusader 2 or 3/Divine Crusader 1/Bone Knight x, add in imperious command and Practiced Spellcaster with strength or war domains. Could laso look at having 3-4 hexblade in place of crusader and fifth level of paladin. Sure it isn't as powerful as straight cleric but it is quite fun and you are focusing the little casting you have around cha along with other class features heck you can even throw in a bit of A game with From Smite to Song if your dm lets you ignore the deity requirements. You can also look at abusing things like Sovereign Speaker and dipping domain adding prcs if you want to buff your spell pool.

Lastly take a look at bone and corpse creature, thought they have no LA they should most likely not an LA anyways but worth talking over with your dm.

[Silvercrys]

If you multiclass with something that has the same or better chasis, but no spellcasting (Knight/Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/etc) to then qualify for a prestige class (Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion) you're taking a minor penalty in the immediate for a better future. Also, the chasis of the Battle Sorcerer is 3/4 BAB and d8 HD. That's not that much of an improved chasis and is worse than pretty much any full BAB class (ranger being the exception). The only thing you're really missing out on is your spellcasting ability, which is the real reason you don't ever want to multi-class, unless it's in to something that advances spellcasting, hence why I stated you don't want to multiclass out of a full caster rather than just a battle sorcerer.

I think one of the most common builds (though I could be wrong) is Battle Sorcerer 4/Full BAB 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5. You only drop 1 spellcasting level and you always improve your non-spellcasting chasis (3/4 BAB from level 1-4, Full BAB 5-11, d8 HD at 1-4 and 6, d10 at 5 and 7-11). Tacking on Eldritch Knight to the end drops an additional spellcasting level, but continues Full BAB but does drop the HD to a d6 which is probably the most damaging part of it, so it becomes a matter of whether full BAB is more important or if HD is more important.So, we're basically comparing Battle Sorcerer 4/Full BAB 1 entry with Sorcerer 4/Full BAB 2 entry.

Battle Sorcerer entry has the same Base Attack and +1 caster level, but has 1 fewer spell of each level.

Fighter 2 entry gets spells one level later but has more spells per day.

They're both "fine", but if you're going to lose the spell of each level anyway you might as well do Battle Sorcerer 6/Spellsword 1/Abj Champ 5/Whatever 8 and not lose any caster levels at all. (Edit: I've realized this build doesn't "technically" qualify for Spellsword, but there are ways around that. Aasimar + Heavy Armor Proficiency feat is one, taking a level of Dragonslayer before Spellsword is another, or you can just take Battle Sorcerer to 8 then enter Abjurant Champion).

[Rebel7284]

How about Paladin 4/Bone Knight 1/Ur Priest 1/Bone Knight +9/x 5
While you can go Paladin of Tyranny, Bone Knight's text about retaining your Paladin class abilities may make that not relevant.

[Voidstar01]

He seems most closely akin to a Sorcerer/Fighter combination

So, in my mind the fact that he's undead is really the only thing making him a death knight..

He's also the art for the death knight in the 5e MM, also iirc the fireball is something all death knights can do. (Though I do the idea that the iconic Deathknight could be accurately represented by a class combo that doesn't result in death knight humorous)

[Voidstar01]

If you're relying on that many stats at once you're building wrong. Use a feat to rekey Cleric spells from Wisdom to Charisma so you have the Cha to have more turn attempts. Also Dispel Magic legit? wat?. if DMM clerics got shut down so easily it wouldn't be one of the most banned /broken routes for a cleric. one bonuses to caster level, easy to do from just picked spells at mid - high level. 2 easy but gotta spend WBL, Ring of Counterspells keyed to Dispel Magic. 3 Using strategy and simply gathering information on foes before rushing in like an idiot to get countered so easily in the first place. I have never actually had that kinda crap happen to me in a game for this very reason. 4th, Contingency accessed via Time Domain. comes with improved initiative to boot.

What feat? and also what about a beholder y'know…. looking at you.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Lost Tradition 3.0 Bastards and Bloodlines, more broken feat. More balanced version, Dynamic Priest from dragonlance campaign books. It unlike the first feat doesn't rekey the DC of spells from Wisdom, (Ie like an attack / save based spell) however if you're creating a DMM Melee monster you simply don't need any of those spells as most of your spells will be persisted buffs. Once you're walking around with 24 or 48h duration buffs you're in a pretty good spot. Also seriously Beholder is your only response? Dude how about you get tactical immediate action teleports to avoid it facing the Anti Magic area towards you? Or idk let it fight someone else then go in smashing so he can't look at you. Ideally it should die really quickly if you set up in a smart way.

Honestly at this point you're just making weak ways to make DMM look bad. It is exactly as broken as people think it is, the balance is picking and choosing what spells to persist. Ban problematic persisted spells like Wraith Strike, perma touch attack melees for most people is going to far for example. Because it hits the point of full power attack auto hit attacks and severely pushes the optimization level / power level up.

You're the one who wants to play a DK, in D&D that's a Necromancer / melee and is ideally made with Cleric/Boneknight. There's variations of dip PrCs like PrC paladin to nap every paladin spell onto your cleric spell list and such, but beyond that you're not going to efficiently make a DK melee necromancer much better with out access to Gestalt. DMM is going to be your best friend to make yourself function as wanted, self impose limits and just don't go nuts game breaking with it. If your DM is going to constantly every single round seek to remove your buffs. Perhaps you need to speak to the DM about why you're target hated to an unplayable level. It shouldn't be every round or every combat. Being countered once in awhile is fine, and you'll still function due to having a **** load of undead.

[Thurbane]

According to the AD&D Dragonlance Adventures book, Lord Soth is described as an (a)typical Death Knight, from the AD&D Fiend Folio.

The powers of a 1E Death Knight included turning immunity, magic resistance, with a chance of spell reflection, ability to summon a Nightmare as a mount, fear aura, wall of ice at will, detect magic, detect invisibility, dispel magic 2/day, gate in a demon with 75% chance of success 2/day, any power word spell 1/day, a symbol of pain/fear 1/day, and a 20d6 fireball 1/day; all at CL 20.

[Maat Mons]

You mentioned a desire to be Neutral. I'm not sure which alignment axis you were talking about, of if you meant both.



There's a Lawful Neutral Paladin in Dragon 310 that could go straight into Bone Knight, if you want.

The True Neutral Paladin variant in the same issue doesn't get Turn Undead, so you can't qualify for Bone Knight with just that. But you could qualify with Incarnate (TN) Paladin 2 / Cleric 2.

You'd only lose 1 point of Base Attack bonus, which isn't too bad. More importantly, you'll qualify for the Serenity feat (from Dragon Compendium), which makes you use Wisdom instead of Charisma for Turn Undead. This would allow you to do DMM Persist shenanigans while "only" needing to worry about 3 stats. Also, you'd be getting +Wis to all saves, which is pretty good.



Dragon 312 has a Neutral Evil Paladin. Corrupter (NE) Paladin 2 / something full BAB 3 / Ur Priest 2 / Bone Knight 10 / something full BAB 3 gets you 9th-level spells and +16 Base Attack bonus. Most people would call that "good enough" for a gish. Though, like all Ur Priest builds, it takes a while for your casting to become decent.



Or maybe you can convince your DM to merge the alternate-alignment Paladins with Prestige Paladin?

[Voidstar01]

Also seriously Beholder is your only response? Dude how about you get tactical immediate action teleports to avoid it facing the Anti Magic area towards you? Or idk let it fight someone else then go in smashing so he can't look at you. Ideally it should die really quickly if you set up in a smart way.


I'm fairly new to the game, I've literally never played a caster before (my only experience with cleric is in my first ever 3.5 game where the DM dropped our level 1 party in a prison guarded by iron golems without even our starting gear it ended.... exactly how you expect that to go) Theses are legitimate questions I have. when I hear "Anti-magic field" I assumed it would pose a legitimate threat to a build relying entirely on a single buff spell.

[EisenKreutzer]

My suggestion would be to play a necropolitan of whatever class combination you feel best reflects Lord Soths powers.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I'm fairly new to the game, I've literally never played a caster before (my only experience with cleric is in my first ever 3.5 game where the DM dropped our level 1 party in a prison guarded by iron golems without even our starting gear it ended.... exactly how you expect that to go) Theses are legitimate questions I have. when I hear "Anti-magic field" I assumed it would pose a legitimate threat to a build relying entirely on a single buff spell.

It's not a single spell. You usually persist 8+ at high levels. It's highly effective and unless the DM secretly hates you for playing a DMM Cleric and won't out right ban the feat so he instead target disables your character every fight. Which is a DM not build issue. You'll find yourself performing very well within expectations. Just ask if Divine Meta Magic is acceptable before using it. It's so powerful it's got a high ban rate in my experience.