Deep Dwarf or Duergar - LA +1 or LA +2 what's the difference?

[robsworld]

Hello -

I've spent the last hour or so searching (here and general web sources) for an appropriate answer but I can't seem to figure it out. A player in my group wants to play a Duergar/Deep Dwarf/Gray Dwarf - Having at least three different names for the race doesn't help, and the race is listed in several different source books (D&D 3.5 only please).

Are these all the same Dwarves?
- Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (pgs 11-13) shows Gray Dwarves with LA +2 - Publication date 2008?
- Underdark (pgs 11-12) shows Duergar with LA +1 Publication date 2003.
- Monster Manual (pgs 91-92) shows Deep Dwarve and Duergar with LA +1 (for Deep Dwarf) and LA +2 for Duergar - Publication date 2003.

I'm really at a loss at the moment. I'm pretty sure that there's at least two different races here. Deep Dwarves and Duergar (aka Gray Dwarf). Are there other names for Duergar? Which LA is correct? Which 3.5 reference has the most recent version of the Duergar? Are there different LA versions of the Duergar?

- Swamped with too much material and not enough time to sort it all on my own.

[DrMotives]

I don't know about the 3.0 MM, but in the 3.5, a deep dwarf is LA +0, and a Duergar is LA +1. These are not the same subrace. Duergar & Gray dwarf, however, are the same sub-race.

The difference in-game is, deep dwarves are an Underdark-adapted dwarven subrace. They are mentioned as being more standoffish compared to surface dwarves, but otherwise about the same, with alignments tending towards LG on average.
Duergar, also called Gray Dwarves, were once not a subrace but just members of Clan Duergar of someother dwarven subrace. The Duergar were enslaved for a few generations by the illithid, before eventually escaping. This altered their outlook on life considerably, changing the most common alignment from LG to NE, and they also picked up some psionic abilities, often changed to SLAs for non-psionic campaigns.

[robsworld]

I'm really at a loss at the moment. I'm pretty sure that there's at least two different races here. Deep Dwarves and Duergar (aka Gray Dwarf). Are there other names for Duergar? Which LA is correct? Which 3.5 reference has the most recent version of the Duergar? Are there different LA versions of the Duergar?

I've got the answer. It took me considerable time, and a bit of help from a respondent. These are two different races. The Deep Dwarf is a different Race. The Duergar is also know as a Gray Dwarve. The Duergar is the race that the player wants to run. After examining three different D&D 3.5 sources (MM, FRCS and Und), I compiled two lists of attributes/traits from the FRCS & Und references. Leaving the Monster Manual out of it (It's for Monsters/not necessarily PC races). The perceived disparity between the two racial references occurred because the Forgotten Realms Campaign Supplement didn't list all the attributes/traits of the Duergar in the Duergar listing (see page 13). Instead the list of racial attributes/traits was prefaced with this statement: "Duergar have all the dwarven racial traits given in Chapter 2 of the Player’s Handbook except as follows:" After adding in the Player's Handbook traits, I found that the only relevant difference between the two Duergar references were the Level Adjustments.

The FRCS - Published in 2008 has a LA of +2. The Underdark - Published in 2003 has a LA of +1. Given that the FRCS is a more recent reference, and the +2 seems to more accurately reflect the value of the Racial attributes/traits, I will be requiring the player to use the FRCS reference in constructing the Player Character.

(PS: I would have included a link to the 'side by side' comparison table that I constructed, but I haven't posted enough times to be permitted links.)

[noce]

I suggest you to reconsider this.
Duergar could be decent at LA 0, but is a weak race for LA +1.
At LA +2, it's just plain bad.

Also, I suggest you to look at the SRD version of the race (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/duergarPsionic.htm). They're considered a LA +1 race here, too.

[Thurbane]

Yeah Deep Dwarves are totally different than Duergar, and can be found in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm#deepDwarf) (basically like normal Dwarves, but with 90 ft Darkvision instead of 60 ft; +3 on saves vs spells, SLAs and poison instead of +2; light sensitivity; and they don't get Common as an automatic language).

There's basically two version of Duergar in 3.5: The MM/SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm#duergar) version, and the psionic version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#duergar). Both are listed as LA +1.

[Bronk]

The FRCS - Published in 2008 has a LA of +2. The Underdark - Published in 2003 has a LA of +1. Given that the FRCS is a more recent reference...

FRCS was published as 3.0 material in 2001, the 2008 date is for 4th edition version.

[robsworld]

FRCS was published as 3.0 material in 2001, the 2008 date is for 4th edition version.

Thank you for the info. I'm not sure how the 2008 date got into my review/comparison of the two different versions. FYI: I don't know where the 'Psionic' version is coming from, but I don't use Psionics in my campaign, so I'm not really interested in that version. I will let the player know that I got the dates wrong, that the Underdark version is newer, and he only has to contend with the +1 LA.

[Thurbane]

Just for sake of reference, the Psionic Duergar can be found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, pages 8 and 195.