One with Shadows - Hiding breaks invisibility

[Greywander]

So I was thinking about this and realized that the way it's written, you turn invisible, but you can't actually hide. Hiding requires an action, and the invisibility ends if you take an action. Rogues could do it, since they can hide as a bonus action, but I doubt this invocations was written with a rogue/warlock multiclass in mind.

It seems like the obvious intent is that you turn invisible and hide at the same time, and moving or taking an action or reaction breaks the invisibility. However, you can't actually do this, as turning invisible and hiding both require an action, so you'd need to do one and then the other. The only way it would work would be if you were already hidden, but that kind of defeats the purpose of turning invisible.

Am I missing something?

Edit: Reminder that even if you're invisible, if you're not hidden then technically everyone knows were you are. Obviously, a DM is likely to put some sane limits on this, but that's technically the RAW.

[Millstone85]

Maybe they changed the spell wording from the PHB that I own... EDIT: DNDBeyond agrees with my PHB, so I think we are good there.

"The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell."

Hiding is neither casting a spell or attacking. So, it doesn't break at all.One with Shadows is not a spell, so I don't know what you are reading.

[nickl_2000]

One with Shadows is not a spell, so I don't know what you are reading.

Crud... One shouldn't forum post before coffee. You are completely right, one with Shadows is not a spell. My brain saw invisibility and was thinking this was referring to the invisibility spell not the Warlock invocation.

[Inglorin]

Am I missing something?


No, I don't think so. What's the problem with that?

It's a rather unlimited invisibility with the caveat, that you can't even move or do any other action. That's pretty cool. Even if someone brightens the lights in the room, you are still invisible. If you die from old age, while standing there: still invisible. Hours upon hours, years upon years. Still invisible.

[JackPhoenix]

Rogues can't do it, as bonus action is still a type of action (AFB, so don't ask me for source. It's definitely somwhere, if not in books, then in SAC). You have to hide first, then turn invisible. It does make some difference, as you can't use it to hide while observed, but it can be used to set up ambushes. Hide in empty, poorly lit room, turn invisible, stay invisible and hidden even when someone enters with light.

Now, there's a fun thought if you have it and Devil's Sight: if you can see "normally" in darkness, how do you know you're in darkness to use OwS?

[Millstone85]

Rogues can't do it, as bonus action is still a type of action (AFB, so don't ask me for source. It's definitely somwhere, if not in books, then in SAC).Here it is:
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. [...] anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Does using a bonus action break invisibility from a warlock’s One with Shadows invocation? Taking a bonus action breaks the invisibility of a warlock’s One with Shadows. A bonus action is an action.

[Ganders]

I've struggled with this one also.

For a start, it's not useless. "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it." If you're invisible, it doesn't really matter if you're hidden or not. You should get advantage at least once.

However, I feel it sort of implies a bit more. There are two things I would add to it.

First of all, so long as you stay still and try not to make noise, you should effectively count as Hidden, with all the benefits thereof. It's not very practical in combat, because enemies still remember your last location (and you can't move)... but can be very effective if you do it before anyone enters the room. In this interpretation, the only reason you don't formally get the actual 'condition' of Hidden is because if you really got that, you might argue you could continue to take advantage of your Hidden condition even after you moved, as moving ends your invisibility but not the Hidden condition. But if you rule it this way, you're sort of obliged to make the same allowance with the Invisibility spell.

Secondly, I would argue that some actions should be permitted. Basically anything that's an 'object interaction' is ok: drawing a weapon, pulling a lever, getting some coins out of your belt pouch, eating and drinking, and so on. Also, in open defiance of the RAW, I'd even allow certain non-hostile actions (on a case-by-case basis). Reading a book. Tying your shoe (or even trying on a new set of boots). Standing up or sitting down. Pocketing a few items off a merchant's cart. Possibly even writing a note on a piece of parchment. And yes, possibly even hiding.

[Millstone85]

For a start, it's not useless. "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it." If you're invisible, it doesn't really matter if you're hidden or not. You should get advantage at least once.Also, a creature that can't see you has disadvantage on its attack rolls against you.

That would make One with Shadows a version of true strike that does not suck, thanks to the addition of a defensive effect.

Hmm... I never considered that.


First of all, so long as you stay still and try not to make noise, you should effectively count as Hidden, with all the benefits thereof.That's what the Hide action is usually understood to entail, your effort to stay quiet and not disturb things around you.

[Aimeryan]

To notice a threat in the first place you have to make a Perception check as per page 182 in the PHB (DC chosen by the DM) - being invisible will give them disadvantage on that check. Hiding lets you contest the check with your Stealth score.

[Tanarii]

You have to hide first, then turn invisible.Right.

The invocation grants the ability to disappear from sight, but not the ability to become unperceivable when they've already perceived you.

[Nagog]

But in this same vein, what can you do while invisible? If this is to be taken directly, here are the optons I see:

1. Speak (Free action, kinda negates the purpose though)
2. Move.

Things you cannot do, but should be able to do:

1. Dash
2. Hide
3. Drink a potion/use a healers kit

[JackPhoenix]

To notice a threat in the first place you have to make a Perception check as per page 182 in the PHB (DC chosen by the DM) - being invisible will give them disadvantage on that check. Hiding lets you contest the check with your Stealth score.

Being invisible doesn't give disadvantage on any ability check. It makes visual Perception check automatically fail. It does nothing to someone's ability to hear you, smell you, or otherwise notice the traces of your presence.


But in this same vein, what can you do while invisible? If this is to be taken directly, here are the optons I see:

1. Speak (Free action, kinda negates the purpose though)
2. Move.

If you mean invisible through One with Shadows, you explicitly can't move. You can take reactions (reaction is *not* an action, unlike bonus action), talk, and I guess use object interaction, as long as it doesn't take an action.

If you mean invisible through Invisibility, you can do anything that doesn't involve attack or spellcasting. All options you've listed are OK. If you have Dragon's Breath cast on you beforehands, you can breathe fire without breaking your invisibility. Same with Call Lightning and similar abilities (assuming you can get around concentration conflicts).

[Aimeryan]

Being invisible doesn't give disadvantage on any ability check. It makes visual Perception check automatically fail. It does nothing to someone's ability to hear you, smell you, or otherwise notice the traces of your presence.

Hmm, I believe you are correct. It may result in the same thing, however; something trying to detect you that relies primarily on sight is likely to have disadvantage by attempting to do so with other senses - presuming it is within a distance that is possible at all (sight tends to be far greater range than most any of the other senses).

This is one area that the PHB/DMG just didn't really go into very well - distance and difficulty for creatures different senses.

[JackPhoenix]

Hmm, I believe you are correct. It may result in the same thing, however; something trying to detect you that relies primarily on sight is likely to have disadvantage by attempting to do so with other senses - presuming it is within a distance that is possible at all (sight tends to be far greater range than most any of the other senses).

This is one area that the PHB/DMG just didn't really go into very well - distance and difficulty for creatures different senses.

There isn't any difference. Some creatures have advantage using certain sense, but otherwise it doesn't matter if you detect hiding person by sight, hearing or smell. Of course, invisibility or obstacles may make the former sense unusable, but don't apply any penalty to Perception checks otherwise (which makes cloak of elvenkind kinda weird, as it's better than being invisible for your chance to hide). Distance, however, isn't covered at all.

[Aimeryan]

There isn't any difference. Some creatures have advantage using certain sense, but otherwise it doesn't matter if you detect hiding person by sight, hearing or smell. Of course, invisibility or obstacles may make the former sense unusable, but don't apply any penalty to Perception checks otherwise (which makes cloak of elvenkind kinda weird, as it's better than being invisible for your chance to hide). Distance, however, isn't covered at all.

The books suggest that the different sense do have different DCs, though - Keen Smell, 'checks that rely on sight', etc. It would be overly cumbersome to roll for each sense, and the system probably isn't designed for it concerning balance. I would probably just do one check with whatever had the best chance - sight for most creatures, but in some situations (such as Invisibility) it would be something else.

However, yeah, as written there is nothing concrete, just hints and suggestions as to what to do.

[Greywander]

Even as Archmage Trebonius approached the door to his study, he knew something was off. Off-key singing and a faint tap tap tap could be heard, even through the closed door. He stood with his hand on the door handle, head cocked to one side, listening. Was that...? Yes, that rhythm, a river dance. And the singing... The words, though faint, still drifted through the closed door.

"Well, the years start coming and they don't stop coming,
Fed to the rules and I hit the ground running..."

Archmage Trebonius had heard enough. As he stepped through the door, he glanced around the room to spot the intruder. It didn't take him long to realize that there was no intruder to be seen. There was, however, an intruder to be heard. The tapping had changed to an impressively fast tap dance, and the voice was now singing Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up, taking on a more frantic tone. Pinpointing the origin of the sounds was trivial in a room this size. Archmage Trebonius confidently strode to the source of the noise, clenched his fist, and felt a wet crunch as it connected with someone's nose.

As Archmage Trebonius stood over the crumpled intruder, his bloody hand lit up with magical fire.

"Should've taken the Hide action."

RAW, unless you take the Hide action, other creatures still know where you are, presumably by using their other senses. I just find it a bit ridiculous that an ability that lets you turn invisible doesn't allow you to hide, especially since taking the Hide action can encompass things like moving less, where the ability in question specifically doesn't allow you to move. What I'd probably do is change it so that you can always take the Hide action while in dim light or darkness, even if you're not obscured, and when you do so, you turn invisible. Alternatively, let you Hide as a bonus action. Or just allow the Hide action without breaking invisibility. The fact that One with Shadows requires you not to move kind of implies that you're doing your best to minimize your movements, and thus are more likely to remain hidden.

[Tanarii]

RAW, unless you take the Hide action, other creatures still know where you are, presumably by using their other senses.
This is not the case. They can still fail to perceive you due to being unable to beat any static DC set by the DM to determine their ability to notice you when you're not hiding.

That might be because of ambient circumstances (fog, noise, etc) or it might be because someone is doing something that won't make them jump out. It may take a static DC to notice there is someone sitting quietly reading a book, or a cat sunbathing on a windowsill. Especially if it's time dependent. As usual, it's DMs choice on setting a DC to resolve a question of uncertainty.

[Greywander]

This is not the case. They can still fail to perceive you due to being unable to beat any static DC set by the DM to determine their ability to notice you when you're not hiding.

That might be because of ambient circumstances (fog, noise, etc) or it might be because someone is doing something that won't make them jump out. It may take a static DC to notice there is someone sitting quietly reading a book, or a cat sunbathing on a windowsill. Especially if it's time dependent. As usual, it's DMs choice on setting a DC to resolve a question of uncertainty.
I suppose you're right. When the players walk into a room, they don't immediately become aware of everything that isn't hidden. I think part of this stems from the assumption that the rules change slightly for combat, and that in combat you're making enough noise that you can still be heard even if you can't be seen.

Speaking of, the Hide action is listed in the Combat section of the PHB, so perhaps the Hide action is only for use in combat. Out of combat, you can just hide, actions aren't really used. In the section on Using Ability Scores, it has a section on hiding, and one of the things it says is that invisible creatures can always attempt to hide. Likely this is referring to the vision rules, where you can't hide from someone who can see you, but it could also be interpreted as overriding the way in which One with Shadows is worded that prevents hiding.

But I think we can all agree that you should be able to attempt to remain undetected, AKA "hide", while using One with Shadows. No one seems to be disputing this, I'm just hearing people argue that you don't actually have to take the Hide action to, you know, hide. Which might be right after all if the Hide action is only for combat.

[Tanarii]

You can use One with shadows to Hide. You just have to Hide first.

Especially useful if you're in a dark room and someone turns on the lights. 😏