Moon Druid - How to make it work as advertised?

[Aimeryan]

So, I have a player that would like to play a Moon Druid with the focus being the Wild Shape and far less on the spell-casting. In fact, they would like to primarily remain in Wild Shape pretty much all the time, barring being forced out of it. However, my experience of Druids, including Moon, is that the casting is the main focus and of course you need to come out of Wild Shape to cast spells. I'm looking for some, preferably simple, modifications to make it work more as the player would expect.

Casters tend to follow this pattern; get a concentration spell up > throw out some aoe damage or control spells > use cantrips. The higher the level the more levelled spells and the less cantrips - in later levels cantrips are rarely used.

As I see it, Moon Druid does the same, except the cantrips are replaced by Wild Shape. This means, if the pattern holds, Wild Shape would become less and less of a focus as the levels increase. Indeed, Wild Shape usage becomes less and less relevant and spell usage becomes more and more relevant as the levels increase - to the point that Wild Shape is merely an afterthought.

If we want Wild Shape to be more, we need to curtail spell usage in balance. The half casters do this, and it feels apt here - lets take Paladin/Ranger spell slot progression.

The next step would then be to stop the Wild Shape haemorrhage. Moon Druids advance forms at a rate of Druid Level/3, with a minimum of CR 1. A simple solution is to advance it at Druid Level/2, instead. Unfortunately, a lack of CR appropriate beasts crop up - that would likely either require including other types at later levels or coming up with new beasts. Elemental Wild Shape would probably also need looking at in this new progression - either earlier or perhaps just lose the two expenditure cost.

Lastly, if we are aiming for (and indeed are now being built for) remaining in Wild Shape and still being able to throw out some spells (as per the half casters), we can't be losing our very limited Wild Shape uses every combat to cast a spell (and it goes against what the player is trying to do). We can probably afford to bring Beast Spells down to a much lower level and be fine considering the much weaker spell slot availability. Maybe 6th level.

Oh, I guess we could do something about the level 20 capstone, but honestly I doubt the player will hit that. Would probably just replace it in some way (seriously, don't think WotC considered Moon Druids when they were coming up with that).

What do you guys think? Would this match up with the vision of the Moon Druid for you? Numbers can be tweaked, or if you have other suggestions go ahead. I'll probably let the player try this out unless someone points at something pretty crippling (one way or the other)!

Summary:


Paladin/Ranger spell slots, druid spell list. Far less dependent on spells, curtailed spell use to remain balanced.
Wild Shape at Druid Level/2. Remains relevant.
Beast Spells at lower level. Need to be able to stay in Wild Shape.

[SpectreCatcher]

I have a Moon Druid in the game I am running, and I have to say she is truly a beast in combat...see what I did there? In all seriousness, one of the things she focuses on with her Wild Shape is utility, meaning she isn't always trying to do the most damage as a beast. Her favorite forms at the moment (they are level 6, just about 7) are the Giant Spider and the Giant Octopus (if they are in or near water). With both of those forms she really does a great job of locking down enemies and allowing the rest of the team to quickly and easily mop up the encounters. She will throw the occasional spell before Wild Shaping, however her main focus is getting into beast form asap.

I think that what you proposed would be a pretty big power spike to an already powerful sub-class. The Druid isn't really built around being a big damage dealer in general they really are better at crowd control and utility, in my experience. I would say that finding the balance between deciding which concentration spell to drop before bonus action Wild Shaping is part of the fun of figuring out the best way to Moon Druid. Besides, don't they get their use of Wild Shapes back on a short rest? That's pretty dang good to start with. :smallsmile:

[Aimeryan]

I have a Moon Druid in the game I am running, and I have to say she is truly a beast in combat...see what I did there? In all seriousness, one of the things she focuses on with her Wild Shape is utility, meaning she isn't always trying to do the most damage as a beast. Her favorite forms at the moment (they are level 6, just about 7) are the Giant Spider and the Giant Octopus (if they are in or near water). With both of those forms she really does a great job of locking down enemies and allowing the rest of the team to quickly and easily mop up the encounters. She will throw the occasional spell before Wild Shaping, however her main focus is getting into beast form asap.

I think that what you proposed would be a pretty big power spike to an already powerful sub-class. The Druid isn't really built around being a big damage dealer in general they really are better at crowd control and utility, in my experience. I would say that finding the balance between deciding which concentration spell to drop before bonus action Wild Shaping is part of the fun of figuring out the best way to Moon Druid. Besides, don't they get their use of Wild Shapes back on a short rest? That's pretty dang good to start with. :smallsmile:

I should probably have made it clearer; I'm looking more to the higher levels where Wild Shape falls off.

As it is, I don't think it is a buff - the spell slot change is pretty significant. The only change early levels, before the level 5 superboost to other classes, is that CR 2 comes in at level 4 instead of 6. Spell slots are weaker, though.

That said, it may indeed be too much at early levels, although I would say that is more a problem of the early level Wild Shapes than of the changes - i.e., it is already too much at the early levels. I was looking at simplicity, but if I was to look at fixing that problem I would probably change the scaling to something slightly more complex.

For example, (Druid Level -2)/2, minimum of 1/2. That would look like:



Level | CR
1 | -
2 | 1/2
3 | 1/2
4 | 1
5 | 1
6 | 2
7 | 2
8 | 3
9 | 3
10 | 4
11 | 4
12 | 5
13 | 5
14 | 6
15 | 6
16 | 7
17 | 7
18 | 8
19 | 8
20 | 9


The early level 2 and 3 dominance is curtailed, while level 4 allows other classes to come online with their feat options (GWM, Sharpshooter, etc.). Level 5 gives Extra Attack to the other classes, which is a huge boost - this is where the Druid scaling needs to start ramping up.

[Chalkarts]

I've also been thirsty to play a wild shape focused character.
If you don't object to modifying 3rd ed stuff, Master of Many Forms could be fun.

I also found an OP 3rd party thing https://www.5esrd.com/classes/3rd-party-publisher-classes/en-publishing/morph/

I've always been annoyed by the only twice per day thing for wild shape. I want a Druid that shapeshifts more than they summon.

[KorvinStarmast]

I should probably have made it clearer; I'm looking more to the higher levels where Wild Shape falls off. Are you including the wild shaping into various elementals? That's a spike at levels 10-12 ish (I never got past 13)

But I'll just say from that experience that I still liked the fact that my druid was a full caster. Sometimes, casting a spell is just what the party needs. I really liked summoning a bunch of beasts to swarm and dismay our various opponents. The "wolf knocks things down" works pretty well when you have 8 of them attacking, or multiple Dire Wolves.

[Aimeryan]

Are you including the wild shaping into various elementals? That's a spike at levels 10-12 ish (I never got past 13)

But I'll just say from that experience that I still liked the fact that my druid was a full caster. Sometimes, casting a spell is just what the party needs. I really liked summoning a bunch of beasts to swarm and dismay our various opponents. The "wolf knocks things down"

Elemental Wild Shape is a strong spike at level 10-12 when combined with the default druid spell progression - its probably too strong. However, I think the weaker spell progression should keep it in check.

Yeah, Moon Druids are fine at higher levels when played as a caster main with a side of Wild Shape, no doubt. The case here is more of wanting to retain the Wild Shape as the main rather than the side.

[KorvinStarmast]

ElementalYeah, Moon Druids are fine at higher levels when played as a caster main with a side of Wild Shape, no doubt. The case here is more of wanting to retain the Wild Shape as the main rather than the side. OK, best wishes and hope it works out.

[SpectreCatcher]

I should probably have made it clearer; I'm looking more to the higher levels where Wild Shape falls off.

Sure that definitely makes a difference and since I don't really have much experience with Moon Druids at that level I can't speak to that too much, but I do have a few thoughts.

My first thought is that utility options probably would stay relevant a bit longer than trying to keep up with damage. Locking an enemy down with a web or a grapple still works at higher levels, even if the enemy saves and checks get better. It just adds more of a challenge to the game.

I think that you could probably drop the level that the Beast Spells class feature comes online by a bit and still be fine balance wise. As to what level to drop it to, that is something to play with but 6th level seems a bit low. Maybe 8th or 9th?

I also think that the bigger reason that the Wild Shape starts to fall off at higher levels is more due to less beast options of those higher CR's than anything else. Which is why that Elemental Shape becomes so great.

Speaking of the Elemental Shapes. I think that if you reduce the spell progression as you are suggesting (now I see you shifted it to the half caster instead of warlock, I think that may be a bit more balanced) then you would probably be safe removing the requirement of two Wild Shapes to become an Elemental. Your concern about this being too strong of a power spike at levels 10-12 is why it would normally take both short rest uses of the Wild Shape, reducing the number of times you can assume this more powerful for keeps that in check.

Ultimately, the correct answer is whatever you and the player come up with that is agreed upon to be both fun and balanced for your game. It may also be worth thinking about what other PC's will be in this game as that may help you decide how and when to move or change certain class features.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I see no problem with higher level moon druids, maybe just before elemental wild shape comes online.

Some races work really well, lizard folks with the bonus action bite, and natural armor.
Loxodons with the con natural armor.
Turtles with the 17 natural armor.
Kobolds with pact tactics and crying for advantage for all the party.

Other things that help is monk for armor, ki and extra attack and barbarian for the same stuff.

Paladin also work great, I think 7 levels of Ancient Paladin work best but I like a pure moon druid.

[Bjarkmundur]

Hmm.

Isn't wild shape mostly OP because of the HP resetting? Isn't that and obviously the CR the only things that need balancing. Meaning that if the CR is balanced and the HP resetting is removed, there is no need to have limited uses of wildshape?

Improved Wild Shape: You can decrease your spellcasting progression by half and remove the HP resetting of Wild Shape to gain unlimited uses of the feature. In addition, you gain temporary HP equal to ___ times your level whenever you use your action to Wild Shape.

Just a thought...

If your player has a favorite form, or if there's a CR gap, just add +5 damage and +15 HP everytime the CR increases by one.

So if my max CR Wild Shape is 2, and then I gain levels and I want to use the same form as a CR 3 creature, I just add these two numbers. Badabing.

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