3.5 Optimisation for an arcane rogue (now from lv 18 to 20)

[Trandir]

Well Sam has done his fair share so now he got a decent rework.

Base stats:
[/SPOILER]
Str: 8 (18 with the ring)
Dex: 16 (22 with the gloves)
Con: 14
Int: 26 (including already 5 inherent bonus)
Wis: 12
Cha: 12

Sam now has 940.000 gp and still no decent geat.
And after the custom item accident only items from manuals are aviable to buy, if RNGesus is on my side that is with the DM rolling magic item shop inventory.


So the basic idea was: a Thief that can stole anything.
This pc can have crappy combat prowess but when it comes to stealing no vault, tower or guards will be enough to stop him.

What I got in the end is: Wizard 4/ Spellthief 1/ Unseen Seer 7/ Arcane trickster 3/ Unseen Seer +3
(I got 4× skill ranks on the first level of all the classes and spellthief on level 5 got me the 8 ranks to enter unseen seer right away)

This way I got almost all , 19/20, of the wizard spellcasting progression plus 3 spells off list,I choose vital strike and hunter's eye but I can still take a spell, at most 8th level, the sneak attack bonus is decent at 6d6 (1 from spellthief, 4 from unseen seer and 1 from arcane trickster), nice skills.

Equipment

Well **** this is bad. This is all the "random" magic item shop has:
Gloves of dexterity +6, 36000 gp
Bracers of armor +8, 64000 gp (forget that I'll never buy this crap )
10 potions of serious wounds, 7500 gp
wand of detect secret door, 3000 gp (yes a little overpriced)
possum pouch, 1800 gp (interesting but garbage)
jumping caltrops, 250 gp ( oh look this garbage can get in the dumpster on his own nice)

Plus a ring of +10 strength that the PC received as reward for the last quest, mostly useless but I can lift my own bag plus some extra touch attack modifier.


ACF taken:
Abrupt jaunt
High conjurer for augment summoning in place of scribe scroll.

I took specialist conjuration and banned evocation, not that big of a loss since shadow evocation exist, and enchantment, that I do not like.



As for feats I have:

Extended spell
Persistent spell
Easy metamagic (persistent spell)
Darkstalker
Practiced spellcaster

So I still get two more to pick.


As bonus feats from classes I got
Augmented summoning
Silent spell



And now I got 2 more levels, this DM really wants to enter in epic territory fast so I have to choose 2 more class levels and finish to build all that I couldn't decide.

Things to decide now:
2 class levels;
2 feats;
Third free divination spell to get up to 8th level;
Where to put the stat increase from 20th level (probably Int);
What spells to take.

[pabelfly]

Well Sam has done his fair share so now i need new PC.


This PC will begin his adventure at level 18, and has to spend on equipment either 440.000 gp or around 1.000.000 gp if I make him a relative of the good old Sam (halfling).
And after the custom item accident only items from manuals are aviable to buy.

I can choose any race from the PHB and halfling aren't that bad to begin with.

My DM will roll the characteristics soon.

This time he is more relaxed so will probably allow even non core classes and ACF for the first 5 levels.
If possible try to avoid "weird build", straight 20 base class or 10 base and one 10 levels PrC or 5 base one 10 levels PrC and one 5 levels PrC would be perfect as long as they are coherent with themeselves.
If possible avoid dips.

Any advice?

The question is, what do you want to run? You have a druid, a sorcerer and a cleric, if I recall, so you want to run something that isn't any of those. Any thoughts or ideas on what interests you?

Oh, yeah, and what level are your fellow party members at?

Just realized that Sam had an adopted brother or sister who went on an adventure to see him.

[Trandir]

The question is, what do you want to run? You have a druid, a sorcerer and a cleric, if I recall, so you want to run something that isn't any of those. Any thoughts or ideas on what interests you?

Oh, yeah, and what level are your fellow party members at?

Yes those are my companions, almost, the druid ins't a druid but is a ranger with the wild shape ACF.

The levels of the party members are 19 (cleric), 19 (sorcerer) and 18 (wild shape ranger).

Probably playing a wizard would be fun. Or a bone knight, or a dread necromancer or whatever I am free.

[pabelfly]

If you want to be a caster, you could go with psionics if you want to differentiate yourself from the sorcerer. Psion is pretty powerful for a caster-like. If you want to gish it up you can go Psychic Warrior or Ardent, both of which are pretty fun.

[Trandir]

If you want to be a caster, you could go with psionics if you want to differentiate yourself from the sorcerer. Psion is pretty powerful for a caster-like. If you want to gish it up you can go Psychic Warrior or Ardent, both of which are pretty fun.

Psion is definetly an option

[pabelfly]

Any other classes or builds you're thinking of? Or are you more after random suggestions to consider?

[Silvercrys]

Pure Psion is pretty strong if you just want something simple.

Psionic gishes are pretty strong, too, what with the not needing somatic components. Ardent 6 (Complete Psionic)/Slayer 10 (from the SRD)/Sanctified Mind 4 (Lords of Madness) gets almost full manifesting and base attack bonus, and doesn't even drop manifester levels if you take Practiced Manifester (Complete Psionic). Also meets your requirements for build, has one base class and takes all 10 levels of Slayer before entering a second prestige class. Ardent 10/Slayer 10 is a pretty serviceable gish, as well.

[pabelfly]

Pure Psion is pretty strong if you just want something simple.

Psionic gishes are pretty strong, too, what with the not needing somatic components. Ardent 6 (Complete Psionic)/Slayer 10 (from the SRD)/Sanctified Mind 4 (Lords of Madness) gets almost full manifesting and base attack bonus, and doesn't even drop manifester levels if you take Practiced Manifester (Complete Psionic). Also meets your requirements for build, has one base class and takes all 10 levels of Slayer before entering a second prestige class. Ardent 10/Slayer 10 is a pretty serviceable gish, as well.

Ardent 10 has an absolutely insane ACF. Reduction of 2pp on metapsionic abilities on one mantle is a serious power boost for all sorts of Ardent builds

[Trandir]

Any other classes or builds you're thinking of? Or are you more after random suggestions to consider?

Random suggestion really. As long as it is either fun to play OoC or fun to fight as it is ok

But at 18+ level casters pretty much always overshadow non casters if they know what they are doing so there is that.


Edit: psionic classes are banned so this is illegal now
After a quick look on psion I am considering Psion 6/ Thrallherd 10/ Psion 2 (how do you indicate that you are taking more levels in a class that you had before?)
And to take as main thrall a sorcerer (I'm not sure about this one) and as second thrall a rogue

[Silvercrys]

Random suggestion really. As long as it is either fun to play OoC or fun to fight as it is ok

But at 18+ level casters pretty much always overshadow non casters if they know what they are doing so there is that.

After a quick look on psion I am considering Psion 6/ Thrallherd 10/ Psion 2 (how do you indicate that you are taking more levels in a class that you had before?)
And to take as main thrall a sorcerer (I'm not sure about this one) and as second thrall a rogueI usually do Psion 6/Thrallherd 10/Psion +2 but I'm not sure there's a standard, heh.

Yeah Thrallherd is really strong too if your group doesn't ban Leadership or similar (most of my groups have in the past).

[John05]

If possible try to avoid "weird build", straight 20 base class or 10 base and one 10 levels PrC or 5 base one 10 levels PrC and one 5 levels PrC would be perfect as long as they are coherent with themeselves.
If possible avoid dips.

Any advice?

This particular set of restrictions is often going to be suboptimal. Would builds with 16/4 or 12/8 splits for classes / prcs be that much weirder than 10/10 or 15/5?

The main reason I'd go with 5 or 10 levels of any class/PrC are because

1. Generally, the PrC has 5 or 10 levels.
2. The capstone (best ability at the final level) of the class is worth it.

If either of the above isn't true, then I wouldn't bother getting 5 or 10 levels.

The issue is that best improvements to saves and base attack bonus are guaranteed at levels divisible by 4.

Let's look at some examples:

Rogue 16 / Fighter 4:
The rogue player got 3/4 BAB for 16 levels, but wants BAB of +16 by epic to get 4 iterative attacks. At 16th level of rogue, he'd already have +12 BAB. He needs 4 more, which 4 levels of fighter covers. +16 BAB.

Rogue 15 / Assassin 1 / Fighter 4:
Now he's getting +11 BAB from the Rogue 15 levels, and +0 BAB from Assassin 1, and +4 BAB from fighter. He ends up with +15 BAB, not enough. +15 BAB.

Rogue 12 / Assassin 4 / Fighter 4:
That's +9 BAB from Rogue, +3 BAB from Assassin 4, and +4 from Fighter 4. The key here is that he gets that +3 at 4th level from Assassin, and only +2 at 3rd Assassin. The extra bonus comes in at a level divisible by 4. Same with Rogue. If we stop at 12 that's a good number, because you get that key +9 BAB, instead of +8 at Rogue 11. Same with Rogue 15 vs Rogue 16. +16 BAB.

When we look at Save bonuses, it's not as obvious, but look at Good and Bad saves and you'll notice that tendency (not as strong as BAB) for the saves to be more guaranteed at numbers divisible by 4.

I wouldn't consider these "weird" builds either. These are extremely common numbers i'm giving. This is all important to keep in mind and common when planning for higher levels and especially when making Gish characters.

If you don't care for BAB (as a full caster) or don't mind losing out slightly on saves, then this isn't too important.

[Trandir]

I usually do Psion 6/Thrallherd 10/Psion +2 but I'm not sure there's a standard, heh.

Yeah Thrallherd is really strong too if your group doesn't ban Leadership or similar (most of my groups have in the past).

Nope one of the cleric feat is leadership so it isn't banned but apparently psionic are.




Honestly, this particular set of restrictions is generally going to be suboptimal.

The main reason I'd go with 5 or 10 levels of any class/PrC are because

1. Generally, the PrC has 5 or 10 levels.
2. The capstone (best ability at the final level) of the class is worth it.

If either of the above isn't true, then I wouldn't bother getting 5 or 10 levels.

The issue is that best improvements to saves and base attack bonus are guaranteed at levels divisible by 4.

Let's look at some examples:

Rogue 16 / Fighter 4:
The rogue player got 3/4 BAB for 16 levels, but wants BAB of +16 by epic to get 4 iterative attacks. At 16th level of rogue, he'd already have +12 BAB. He needs 4 more, which 4 levels of fighter covers. +16 BAB.

Rogue 15 / Assassin 1 / Fighter 4:
Now he's getting +11 BAB from the Rogue 15 levels, and +0 BAB from Assassin 1, and +4 BAB from fighter. He ends up with +15 BAB, not enough. +15 BAB.

Rogue 12 / Assassin 4 / Fighter 4:
That's +9 BAB from Rogue, +3 BAB from Assassin 4, and +4 from Fighter 4. The key here is that he gets that +3 at 4th level from Assassin, and only +2 at 3rd Assassin. The extra bonus comes in at a level divisible by 4. Same with Rogue. If we stop at 12 that's a good number, because you get that key +9 BAB, instead of +8 at Rogue 11. Same with Rogue 15 vs Rogue 16. +16 BAB.

When we look at Save bonuses, it's not as obvious, but look at Good and Bad saves and you'll notice that tendency (not as strong as BAB) for the saves to be more guaranteed at numbers divisible by 4.

I wouldn't consider these "weird" builds either. These are extremely common numbers i'm giving. This is all important to keep in mind and common when planning for higher levels and especially when making Gish characters.

If you don't care for BAB (as a full caster) or don't mind losing out slightly on saves, then this isn't too important.

Well as long as it is thematically appropriate, as are the ones you used as exemples they are fine. But probably things like: being fron 2 different knight orders are "weird".
That sayed I'll have to change some phrases in the OP to make it more hunderstendable

[Silvercrys]

Honestly, this particular set of restrictions is generally going to be suboptimal.

The main reason I'd go with 5 or 10 levels of any class/PrC are because

1. Generally, the PrC has 5 or 10 levels.
2. The capstone (best ability at the final level) of the class is worth it.

If either of the above isn't true, then I wouldn't bother getting 5 or 10 levels.

The issue is that best improvements to saves and base attack bonus are guaranteed at levels divisible by 4.

Let's look at some examples:

Rogue 16 / Fighter 4:
The rogue player got 3/4 BAB for 16 levels, but wants BAB of +16 by epic to get 4 iterative attacks. At 16th level of rogue, he'd already have +12 BAB. He needs 4 more, which 4 levels of fighter covers. +16 BAB.

Rogue 15 / Assassin 1 / Fighter 4:
Now he's getting +11 BAB from the Rogue 15 levels, and +0 BAB from Assassin 1, and +4 BAB from fighter. He ends up with +15 BAB, not enough. +15 BAB.

Rogue 12 / Assassin 4 / Fighter 4:
That's +9 BAB from Rogue, +3 BAB from Assassin 4, and +4 from Fighter 4. The key here is that he gets that +3 at 4th level from Assassin, and only +2 at 3rd Assassin. The extra bonus comes in at a level divisible by 4. Same with Rogue. If we stop at 12 that's a good number, because you get that key +9 BAB, instead of +8 at Rogue 11. Same with Rogue 15 vs Rogue 16. +16 BAB.

When we look at Save bonuses, it's not as obvious, but look at Good and Bad saves and you'll notice that tendency (not as strong as BAB) for the saves to be more guaranteed at numbers divisible by 4.

I wouldn't consider these "weird" builds either. These are extremely common numbers i'm giving. This is all important to keep in mind and common when planning for higher levels and especially when making Gish characters.

If you don't care for BAB (as a full caster) or don't mind losing out slightly on saves, then this isn't too important.I agree with this post in general, that levels divisible by 4 are common breakpoints and that in an optimization context they really aren't "weird", though mainly when the class you're breaking has a 3/4 base attack bonus. But most "casual" players who don't optimize online or use handbooks are going to disagree.

I'm the only optimizer in my main play group and I'd probably get books thrown at me if I stopped taking levels in a 3/4 BAB prestige class at 4 or 8 to maximize my attack bonus, heh. Lots of groups think prestige classes are like, flavor things tied to organizations or a big deal for your character to be or important to your identity or something, and if you leave them or multiclass out of them you're a dirty munchkin. Unfortunately.

[Trandir]

I agree with this post in general, that levels divisible by 4 are common breakpoints and that in an optimization context they really aren't "weird", though mainly when the class you're breaking has a 3/4 base attack bonus. But most "casual" players who don't optimize online or use handbooks are going to disagree.

I'm the only optimizer in my main play group and I'd probably get books thrown at me if I stopped taking levels in a 3/4 BAB prestige class at 4 or 8 to maximize my attack bonus, heh. Lots of groups think prestige classes are like, flavor things tied to organizations or a big deal for your character to be or important to your identity or something, and if you leave them or multiclass out of them you're a dirty munchkin. Unfortunately.

Indeed so I changed the OP accordingly.

Can we go back on topic now?

[liquidformat]

So as long as ACFs are aloud my favorite build is the following:

Bear Barbarian 3/Ranger 3/Fist of the forest 3/Primeval 10/Warshaper 2 or Nature's Warrior 2 or Bear Barbarian 3/Wildshape Ranger 5/Fist of the forest 2/Primeval 10
Alternatively:
Bear Barbarian 3/Overwhelming Assault Monk 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Primeval 10/ Warshaper 2 or Nature's Warrior 2

Either way it is a fun build that is thematic, I like dire puma or dire lion the most but there are a lot of interesting forms.

Another one I like is shifter barbarian/unarmed swordsage/Fist of the forest/weretouched master
There are a lot of cool things you can do with this build and it is pretty easy to customize, the only key is that you don't use errata'ed weretouched master because it is garbage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

18th level, preferably some kind of halfling, no psionics, not copying anyone’s character.

Maybe an Illumian, Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Mindbender 1/ Wizard 1/ Paragnostic Apostle. Take Able Learner and Practiced Spellcaster, with the Krau sigil from Illumian you’ll get to add all 10 UM levels to your Wizard spellcasting. That’s Beguier 8 and Wizard 17 spells/day at a caster level of 22 for both, with skills like a Rogue.

[Trandir]

So as long as ACFs are aloud my favorite build is the following:

Bear Barbarian 3/Ranger 3/Fist of the forest 3/Primeval 10/Warshaper 2 or Nature's Warrior 2 or Bear Barbarian 3/Wildshape Ranger 5/Fist of the forest 2/Primeval 10
Alternatively:
Bear Barbarian 3/Overwhelming Assault Monk 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Primeval 10/ Warshaper 2 or Nature's Warrior 2

Either way it is a fun build that is thematic, I like dire puma or dire lion the most but there are a lot of interesting forms.

Another one I like is shifter barbarian/unarmed swordsage/Fist of the forest/weretouched master
There are a lot of cool things you can do with this build and it is pretty easy to customize, the only key is that you don't use errata'ed weretouched master because it is garbage.

This is interesting, a true savage barbarian build


18th level, preferably some kind of halfling, no psionics, not copying anyone’s character.

Maybe an Illumian, Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Mindbender 1/ Wizard 1/ Paragnostic Apostle. Take Able Learner and Practiced Spellcaster, with the Krau sigil from Illumian you’ll get to add all 10 UM levels to your Wizard spellcasting. That’s Beguier 8 and Wizard 17 spells/day at a caster level of 22 for both, with skills like a Rogue.

This is also interesting but unfortunately I a limited only to the PHB races so I can't choose illumian.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This is also interesting but unfortunately I a limited only to the PHB races so I can't choose illumian.

In that case, go Halfling (Strongheart if possible) Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Mindbender 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ whatever advances Wizard. Take Master Spellthief and you still apply all 10 UM levels to Wizard. You won’t start with 9th level spells, but your caster level will be 29 for both classes.

In either case, specialize in conjuration with enchantment and evocation prohibited, and get abrupt jaunt. Also use the fighter feat variant for Wizard to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. I would also pick up Eschew Materials just in case.

[Trandir]

I might have been a little hasty in taking the chance to play a new PC. It has been offered the opportunity to rebuild from the ground Sam so this would probably be better for continuity.

Still I do not know if there is even a decent way to build a thief

[Silvercrys]

Depends on what you want/need out of the "thief" concept and your optimization limitations.

Just stealthy with high Sleight of Hand? You can do that and be a combat character at the same time, probably. Rogue 4/Scout 4/Rogue +12 with Swift Ambusher is pretty good with a shortbow and doesn't lose all their damage if they can't flank/catch people with no Dex to AC, and has really high skills with decent AC as long as you can keep moving (though not as high skills as you had, heh).

Master Spellthief builds (Spellthief/Wizard/Unseen Seer with Master Spellthief) can steal spells from enemy spellcasters and borrow them from allies. Can also just do Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Unseen Seer +4 if you don't want the steal spells/master spellthief stuff.

I vaguely recall you had access to Tome of Battle, Swordsage/Rogue multiclass makes you a pretty decent thief with Shadow Hand maneuvers for getting into places you aren't supposed to be.

You can definitely make high level thieves work depending on your concept.

[pabelfly]

One idea to rebuild your Rogue... start with Rogue and use that to help you get into the PrC into Telflammar Shadowlord (requires 2d6 sneak attack damage). The most important ability it has is Shadow Pounce, which lets you full attack whenever you manage to use a spell or ability with the teleport descriptor.

[Trandir]

Depends on what you want/need out of the "thief" concept and your optimization limitations.

Just stealthy with high Sleight of Hand? You can do that and be a combat character at the same time, probably. Rogue 4/Scout 4/Rogue +12 with Swift Ambusher is pretty good with a shortbow and doesn't lose all their damage if they can't flank/catch people with no Dex to AC, and has really high skills with decent AC as long as you can keep moving (though not as high skills as you had, heh).

Master Spellthief builds (Spellthief/Wizard/Unseen Seer with Master Spellthief) can steal spells from enemy spellcasters and borrow them from allies. Can also just do Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Unseen Seer +4 if you don't want the steal spells/master spellthief stuff.

I vaguely recall you had access to Tome of Battle, Swordsage/Rogue multiclass makes you a pretty decent thief with Shadow Hand maneuvers for getting into places you aren't supposed to be.

You can definitely make high level thieves work depending on your concept.

In this order this rogue needs to:
Be able to disarm
Open closed locks
Steal material things from
Hide anywhere
Steal any non-material thing one can
Be usefull in combat
(it's more flavour than optimisation)

Also I have access to all books, so ToB is viable.

I really like the master spellthief feat. It allows to make easly a magical thief. You get the usual wizard stuff (and being at lv 18 still get 9th level spells) as well as rogue/thief stuff. Amazing

Do you have any other advice?



One idea to rebuild your Rogue... start with Rogue and use that to help you get into the PrC into Telflammar Shadowlord (requires 2d6 sneak attack damage). The most important ability it has is Shadow Pounce, which lets you full attack whenever you manage to use a spell or ability with the teleport descriptor.

While interesting this is more of an assassin than a thief. And the fact that it has some really bad feat tax to enter doesn't help to sell it.

But it might be good another time

[Rebel7284]

At level 18, stealing from mere mortals is not enough. Be an Ur Priest and steal cosmic powers directly from the gods!

[Trandir]

At level 18, stealing from mere mortals is not enough. Be an Ur Priest and steal cosmic powers directly from the gods!

Well ur priest is a weird spot because it isn't a thief in the material sense, and for some reason a spell thief 5 can do that trick too (a lot more difficult for them to pull it of but still)

[pabelfly]

While interesting this is more of an assassin than a thief. And the fact that it has some really bad feat tax to enter doesn't help to sell it.

But it might be good another time

Oh, sure, paying four feats is a steep cost. But you can easily get two full attacks per turn with it, and quite possibly more with a bit of effort.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spellthief 1/ Psion or Ardent 4/ Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) (Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) variant?) 6/ Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 7+, get Mind Cripple from Psychic Assassin. Keep in mind that a text description overrules the table every time, so Psychic Assassin advances manifesting at the 5th level as well. If using Ardent, always use Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a).

Take TWF, Weapon Finesse, get Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) with an enhancement bonus to Dex added (MIC p234), and two small Swords of Subtlety (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety) with Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#speed) added (Subtlety is a +1 shortsword +20k, so with Speed it would be priced as a +4 shortsword +20k). You could also put Wounding on those weapons to deal 1 Con damage per hit, and you could even add Marrowcrushing (BoVD) to add 1 more Con damage per hit. Be sure both of those have a wand chamber from Dungeonscape, and put a Wand of Extended Wraithstrike in one of them. Use Temporal Acceleration to get in close hidden and buff yourself, on the last round of that use the Wand of Extended Wraithstrike, so when you return to your normal round you'll get to full attack for seven swings, dealing 2 Int damage per hit. A creature reduced to Int 0 is in a coma and disabled regardless of its hp, anything smart enough to not get dropped by that is probably a wizard who's no longer able to cast his higher level spells. Against undead or anything immune to sneak attack just use Psionic Disintegrate or similar.

You can buff your skill checks with Psionic Moment of Prescience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/momentofPresciencePsionic.htm), and if going Psion you'll have a high enough Int score to have plenty of skill ranks in those important skills. Get Energy Missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyMissile.htm), if necessary via Expanded Knowledge, which can destroy doors, locks, traps, opponents' spell component pouch or divine focus, the pillar holding up the ceiling, a bridge or boat enemies are using, etc. Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) can simply make a door vanish until the party has made it through, bypassing any traps on it, or it can disappear a physically powerful opponent's weapon for the rest of the fight without destroying the loot. If using Ardent you'll want to wear a Monk's Belt to add your Wis bonus to your AC, and use a max-augmented Inertial Armor every day.

Get a psicrystal (Nimble or Hero) and keep it in a compartment on your person so you have line of sight/effect to it but opponents don't and they can't target it directly or hit it with area effects. Keep Share Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) on it at all times so you take half damage from all sources, its Hardness 8 reduces every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain by as much. Use Vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm) and share it with the psicrystal to get a substantial hp cushion.

Here's an opponent I built for someone to throw against a high-level party that uses this build. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358732-I-need-a-lot-of-easily-playable-builds#4)

[pabelfly]

Spellthief 1/ Psion or Ardent 4/ Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) (Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) variant?) 6/ Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 7+, get Mind Cripple from Psychic Assassin. Keep in mind that a text description overrules the table every time, so Psychic Assassin advances manifesting at the 5th level as well. If using Ardent, always use Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a).[/URL]

TC can't use psionics.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

TC can't use psionics.

He said all the limitations were gone?

[Trandir]

He said all the limitations were gone?

I did, and I also sayed that the DM doesn't like psions.
I can build one but it will probably result in a "rocks fall from the ceiling, you die" situation

Edited the op to make the few limitations clear

[pabelfly]

He said all the limitations were gone?

Nearly all. The few clauses left are at the end of the OP - No elves, monks or psionics. And if the build happens to have Halfling or Rogue or both in the build so much better.

[Trandir]

Ok I have decided what levels this PC will take.
Now I need to decide on everything else (some of the equipment is obv but the rest not so much)

[Jowgen]

Master Pickpocket feat would make a good addition imo, letting you make free action Sleight of Hand checks (without provoking AoO) at a -10 penalty. Also, as written, lets you steal anything not held in hand.

Trickster ACF from Dragon 353, adds Bard spells to your spellthief list (incl. progression) which might be handy, costs you a couple skills, skillpoints and trapfinding (which you can replace with a spell iirc).

[Trandir]

Master Pickpocket feat would make a good addition imo, letting you make free action Sleight of Hand checks (without provoking AoO) at a -10 penalty. Also, as written, lets you steal anything not held in hand.

Trickster ACF from Dragon 353, adds Bard spells to your spellthief list (incl. progression) which might be handy, costs you a couple skills, skillpoints and trapfinding (which you can replace with a spell iirc).

I considered that feat, ambiguous wording, +10 effective bonus to use it in combat and no AoO for doing it, quite the package for a feat. And for a resonable 35 I can even steal anything that weights 5 lb. or less from a safe distance somehow thanks to arcane trickster twice per day.


Yea but I lose trapfinding and 8 skill ranks (this DM allow for 4×skill ranks at every first level in a class) for nothing really, apart from auto UMD for bard spells, since arcane trickster and unseen seer will advance wizard and spellthief at level 1 gets no spell.

[Trandir]

Weeeeeeeel little problem.
The magic item shop probably got raided or shenanigams and they are left with some garbage that covers (badly) 1/4 of a 18th level PC WBL and leaves more tan 850k gold unspent.

This also means that the intelligence of this PC is set on 14 so unless i do not do a switcheroo with base dex and int, 18 and 14 respectively.
Final stat:
Dex: 14 base the halfling +2 and the gloves +6 get me to 22, respectable stat
Int: 18 base increment lv 4,8,12 +3 the tome +5 sum for a 26, pretty good for skill monkey/casting


Any other idea?

[Mato]

Ok now I am quite set on the idea of this build: Wizard 4/ Spellthief 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Arcane trickster 7/ Unseen Seer +6Oh.

I was kind of hoping that I'd get to see a post about playing an actual spelltheif. It's not really a terrible class, specially if you skip the first eighteen levels of the game and start spamming miracle ten times a day or more with unlimited 6ths and below, it's just like most classes it's overshadowed by the wizard.

[Trandir]

Oh.

I was kind of hoping that I'd get to see a post about playing an actual spelltheif. It's not really a terrible class, specially if you skip the first eighteen levels of the game and start spamming miracle ten times a day or more with unlimited 6ths and below, it's just like most classes it's overshadowed by the wizard.


Wait you can do that? How?

[Mato]

Wait you can do that? How?Godsblood Spelltheft (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606)(mask / luck domain) lets a spelltheif convert any stolen 9th level spell into miracle, the actual number of times this can be used is limited on your charisma modifier which can easily reach 10 and higher. The spelltheif's capstone, the ability to absorb a targeting spell and immediately respond with any 8th/7th through miracle, is especially powerful but too niche to see general play.

Also often overlooked is Dragon Magazine 353's Trickster alternative class feature which increases the spelltheif's spellcasting up to 6th level, granting a full CL, and grants access to the bard's rather impressive spell list.

Alternatively, a spellthief of 4th level or higher can use the stolen spell power to cast any spellthief spell that he knows of the same level or lower (effectively, this gives the spellthief one free casting of a known spell).Which combined with a spell slot battery, it can theoretically have no real limit on the number of 6th level spells or lower it can cast. The Spelltheif can also take advantage of other downtime spell abuse, such as stealing echoing spells or preparing delicate disks, as well as use dragonsblood spell-pact for trading known spells which gives you plenty of optimization options. But it again suffers because you don't have access to this stuff for a majority of the game.

Starting at level 18 is a really good way to skip through most of the problems the class has.

[Trandir]

Well. New day new levels.
As always I come here to ask for help.

The build worked. But the houserules gets weirder every day, but this will be the argument of another thread.

Now what to do with this PC?

[Anthrowhale]

For unseen seer, I prefer Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar. On a skillmonkey, the ability to spike a +35 to skill checks is great.

For levels, I'd suggest taking another level of Arcane Trickster and using Frog God's Fane to pick up Skill Focus[Knowledge[Religion]] to qualify for Loremaster 1, which gives you a bonus feat. Alternatively, 2 levels of Divine Oracle is nice also.

For feats, Able Learner is quite nice on a build like this, although that requires you to be human. Another nice choice is Master Spellthief to steal high level spells. You might also consider Craft Wondrous Item if the magic shop is lame.

[Trandir]

For unseen seer, I prefer Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar. On a skillmonkey, the ability to spike a +35 to skill checks is great.

For levels, I'd suggest taking another level of Arcane Trickster and using Frog God's Fane to pick up Skill Focus[Knowledge[Religion]] to qualify for Loremaster 1, which gives you a bonus feat. Alternatively, 2 levels of Divine Oracle is nice also.

For feats, Able Learner is quite nice on a build like this, although that requires you to be human. Another nice choice is Master Spellthief to steal high level spells. You might also consider Craft Wondrous Item if the magic shop is lame.

Ok those 2 spells got me in a little trouble so I decided to not abuse of the +35 on any skill check. But yes that is basically unlimited skillmonkey power.

I have to ask the DM if I can get an arcane oracle as the adaptation suggest. He is one of those who looks at the flavor even tho there is nothing in the requirements that is exlusive to divine classes. And the magic items are very limited and the legendary sites have to be known. Loremaster is also difficult to justify for the rp prospective but this DM will not allow the Frog's god fane so this would be a feat for a feat, not worth it.

Able learner is human only unfortunately, master spellthief could be nice but I have fought not a single enemy with spells (this DM loves throwing at us demons and other outsiders) so stealing is almost never going to work. Also master spellthief doesn't increases the max level of spells one can keep so I could steal 9th level spells but store up to one 1st level spell. I do not like crafting and it would require too much time to do. Bit one of the other PC is opening a new magic item shop with an NPC (who sells only metallic items) so I hope he will sell something nice.


Thanks for the help anyway. Really but this DM weird limitations are bad for the usual builds I see around.

I am going to take twin spell, double the spell double the fun

[Anthrowhale]

I have to ask the DM if I can get an arcane oracle as the adaptation suggest. He is one of those who looks at the flavor even tho there is nothing in the requirements that is exlusive to divine classes. And the magic items are very limited and the legendary sites have to be known. Loremaster is also difficult to justify for the rp prospective but this DM will not allow the Frog's god fane so this would be a feat for a feat, not worth it.

In that case, I'd suggest taking an extra level of Arcane Trickster and a level of Wizard as it's very hard to object to taking classes you've already taken based on roleplaying reasons. The former gives you +1d6 SA while the latter gives you an extra metamagic feat.


I am going to take twin spell, double the spell double the fun
Typically, spell selection is similar to Twin Spell in effect unless you have metamagic reducers. For example, a Delayed Blast Fireball does the same theoretical damage as a Twin Fireball out of the same slot. Similarly, a Twin Charm Person has about the same chance of taking effect as a Heighten[1] Charm Monster since the benefit of imposing 2 saves is like a +4 to the spell DC. As an alternative, you might consider:

Ocular Spell. This is like 2 metamagics (Reach + Quicken) for the price of one, but only 1/combat. For nearly anything vulnerable to ability damage, Ocular[Shivering Touch, Shivering Touch] is pretty devastating. If you could find/borrow/make a metamagic rod of lesser maximize spell it would be even better.
Chain Spell. Being able to hit every monster with (say) Baleful Polymorph instead of 1 is an encounter ender. Chain Greater Magic Weapon + Chain Greater Mighty Wallop is also a great party buff.
Quicken Spell. An extra spell/round is great.
Sculpt Spell. This means you always have the right area of effect.

If you are fighting outsiders, it might be handy to invest in Earth Sense + Earth Spell + Heighten Spell, which allows you to blow through spell resistance.

[Trandir]

Typically, spell selection is similar to Twin Spell in effect unless you have metamagic reducers. For example, a Delayed Blast Fireball does the same theoretical damage as a Twin Fireball out of the same slot. Similarly, a Twin Charm Person has about the same chance of taking effect as a Heighten[1] Charm Monster since the benefit of imposing 2 saves is like a +4 to the spell DC. As an alternative, you might consider:

Ocular Spell. This is like 2 metamagics (Reach + Quicken) for the price of one, but only 1/combat. For nearly anything vulnerable to ability damage, Ocular[Shivering Touch, Shivering Touch] is pretty devastating. If you could find/borrow/make a metamagic rod of lesser maximize spell it would be even better.
Chain Spell. Being able to hit every monster with (say) Baleful Polymorph instead of 1 is an encounter ender. Chain Greater Magic Weapon + Chain Greater Mighty Wallop is also a great party buff.
Quicken Spell. An extra spell/round is great.
Sculpt Spell. This means you always have the right area of effect.

If you are fighting outsiders, it might be handy to invest in Earth Sense + Earth Spell + Heighten Spell, which allows you to blow through spell resistance.

In order:
Ya probably twin spell is not that usefull. A spell cast twice is sometimes as good as one 4 levels higher. Also the volley rule invalidates the eventual SA bonus so there isn't much to gain.

I do not hunderstand why ocular spell is good, it a reach spell with double reach for the same +2, and quicken one if one choses to fire them togheter but is still 2 spell per encounter.

Chain spell is interesting. I am not a fan of the save-or-die or the no save just suck spells but it is worth considering nontheless.

Quicken spell is far better than twin spell, for the same metamagic modifier I get twice the SA and it can be used on all sort of things
Sculpt spell is probably not for an unseen seer. I get damage with SA and area spells usually offers ST and do not require an attack roll

[Anthrowhale]

I do not hunderstand why ocular spell is good, it a reach spell with double reach for the same +2, and quicken one if one choses to fire them togheter but is still 2 spell per encounter.

It's also compatible with Quicken, so you can get 3 spells off at the encounter start. At some point, you are just knocking out multiple opponents immediately, which basically means you win.