Dragon Talk: LYSK Elemental Ships of Eberron, 8/30/19

[Tetrasodium]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceO94hnTtUk&list=WL&index=2

The indiana jones style red line on the map comes up & how it relates to eberron comes up.
Airships still have elemental rings & again need to be made out of soarwood (lighter than air magic wood from Arenal) which is once again part of why they are not super common yet. a bit about how they are powered, controlled, & created as well.

It's hard to tell if it was just omitted for clarity rather than getting lost in the weeds, but airships are piloted by lyrander heirs; cannith makes them & the gnomes of Zilargo bind the elemental. I'm pretty sure Tito has said that eberron is not his strong suit & can't be faulted fr asking if house lyrander is the only ones who make airships at 7:28. Perkins I think knows better & just answers "yes they have a monopoly" rather than getting too far off into the weeds. I'm sure in some future lore you should know they will correct that oversight of Lyrander's monopoly being on piloting airships not building them for brevity while talking about cannith, Zilargo, or the drow of xendriik/ fallen giant empire & it's otherwise a great segment.

I really like how they go into detail on the different types of dragonshard & how they are involved in powering different types of magic items

They talk a bit about elemental galleons compared to airships, some old adventures, and vrious bits of rise intended to help build & fill adventures in eberron. Maps for lightning rail cars & a few other things

I don't really have any complaints or concerns about things mentioned in it, but the mention of khyber (http://keith-baker.com/tag/khyber/) being eberron's underdark makes me cringe. Knowing rising probably doesn't focus much on khyber (https://manifest.zone/dragon-con-2019-eberron-in-fifth-edition/) combined that it was kind of a vague offhand reference made as part of the creation myth before moving back to the eberron/khyber/siberyis dragonshards discussion rather than a direct comparison or detailed dive on khyber leaves it as just a cringe-worthy moment.The khyber:underdark comparison if ever developed or put in print is problematic because the two are so intensely different with "underdark is underground & khyber is sorta underground" being the biggest & pretty much only commonality.

Despite the minor criticism & points of concern, I think it was a great segment that did s good ob of covering airships & elemental craft in eberron :D

[Envyus]

I don't really have any complaints or concerns about things mentioned in it, but the mention of khyber (http://keith-baker.com/tag/khyber/) being eberron's underdark makes me cringe. Knowing rising probably doesn't focus much on khyber (https://manifest.zone/dragon-con-2019-eberron-in-fifth-edition/) combined that it was kind of a vague offhand reference made as part of the creation myth before moving back to the eberron/khyber/siberyis dragonshards discussion rather than a direct comparison or detailed dive on khyber leaves it as just a cringe-worthy moment.The khyber:underdark comparison if ever developed or put in print is problematic because the two are so intensely different with "underdark is underground & khyber is sorta underground" being the biggest & pretty much only commonality.

Khyber is Eberron's underdark. It's also basically Eberron's hell. Don't know why that makes you cringe.

Tell me, what makes Khyber and the Underdark so different.

[Tetrasodium]

Khyber is Eberron's underdark. It's also basically Eberron's hell. Don't know why that makes you cringe.

Tell me, what makes Khyber and the Underdark so different.

It's not either of those things & the only way you could claim that is willful ignorance. In FR & other settings using the planescape planes, the nine hells is a specific plane with specific things going on. Khyber has zero in common with it. Khyber has bound demon overlords, imprisoned Daelkyr, various pocket dimensions, so on and so forth. "The underdark" is so bleeping rooted in FR that it's wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underdark) that it's all about the underdark in FR. Khyber is no more "the underdark" than Pelor & Mystara are demon overlords (because that's what people in eberron would call those FR bar brawlers).

Souls do not go to Khyber, death in eberron makes the wall of souls look comforting & that's a big part of the church of the silver flame/blood of vol/etc. Whe a mortal dies, their soul goes to dolurrh where it fades eventually becomes a shade. People who get brought back after staying too long are missing parts of who they were. The CoSF believes that souls of the dead join the silver flame & help contain an evil bound within it. The BoV belives mortality is a curse & con from the sovereigns so they can parasitically use the divine spark of mortals to build their own power. The gods are so hands off in eberron that nobody knows for certain if they even exist, including the celestials & such that claim to serve them.


I choose the wikipedia entry on "The Underdark" because it's going to be more setting neutral than any setting specific wiki., lets break it down

Use in campaign settings

The Underdark featured prominently in the campaign settings World of Greyhawk[2] and the Forgotten Realms.[3] The concept of a dungeon that spanned a planet was first introduced by Gary Gygax in his D-series of game modules[4] and at the end of the G-series. The Underdark was described in detail in the 1986 manual Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, by Doug Niles.[5] It was also part of the Eberron campaign setting, in which it was called Khyber and was home to evil beings driven deep into the caverns at the end of the age of demons.[6]

A review for Pyramid refers to the Underdark as "one of the most well known facets of the Forgotten Realms".[7] Much of the literary attention for this deep underworld stemmed from the sourcebooks and accessories for the Forgotten Realms setting, including R.A. Salvatore's novels about the fictional character Drizzt Do'Urden.[3]

The Underdark was also the setting for the expansion pack to the computer game Neverwinter Nights called Hordes of the Underdark, which featured the port city of Lith My'athar, and the mysterious Seer.[8]
That first section is pretty clear that The underdark is both deeply connected to Forgotten Realms & Greyhawk. It goes further to spell out that The Underdark is one of the most well known components of FR & largely developed through FR sourcebooks & FR novels.

No, a significant plot point to eberron is not one of the most well known facets of the Forgotten realms & it was not developed in the bleeping forgotten realms campaign setting, Salvatore's FR Cannon Drizzt novels or a omputer game set in FR.


Features
The Underdark is "a vast subterranean realm inhabited by drow, mind flayers, aboleth, and other strange, sinister creatures. It is a place where few humans go and from where even fewer return".[5] It extends well past the dungeons made by surface dwellers, encompassing myriad caverns, tunnels and complexes.[7]
The drow of eberron are so incredibly different from the drow of FR & Greyhawk that you can't even say "but eberron has drow too". What's more is that the drow of eberron do not bleeping live in Khyber, they mostly live on the continent of xendriik.

Mind flayers in Khyber? Possibly, the gatekeepers ended the daelkyr invasion by imprisoning the daelkyr in Khyber, so the mind flayers created by the daelkyr could have had some of their members imprisoned with them. It's hard to say what role aboleth's have in eberron. Sometimes people suggest they were servants of the Demon overlords; Others suggest they could have been Daelkyer creations.. but it goes without saying that neither of those possibilities need the shellac of FR lore that goes with "The Underdark".
"sinister creatures" is utterly meaningless & can be applied to nearly anywhere in eberron, hell... in Karrnath there are intelligent undead who have full citizenship & the right to be treated as such by the regular people living alongside them in cities.

Khyber shards are mined in khyber, expeditions into khyber for mining is not unheard of & for various reasons you could even say that they are reasonably common. While khyber might indeed have "myriad caverns, tunnels and complexes.", it also has pocket dimensions & such. That's another massive difference.


Environment
The fictional Underdark's physical characteristics are based upon conditions in real-world caverns deep underground, except at immense size. Within the context of a game, the Underdark is extremely dangerous, especially to non-native characters and creatures. There are also the usual dangers associated with caverns: claustrophobia, poor air circulation, floor/ceiling collapses and getting lost.

There is no light except for occasional patches of phosphorescent fungus; most Underdark inhabitants either have highly developed senses other than sight or have developed darkvision.[note 1] Food can be extremely difficult to find, and much of the natural vegetation is poisonous. In addition, potable water is hard to locate.

In the Forgotten Realms setting, the Underdark is permeated with a magical energy the drow call faerzress, which is used as a source of energy by the native plant life and which interferes with scrying and teleportation spells.
Oh look... another FR reference.


Araumycos
In the Forgotten Realms setting, Araumycos (Dwarvish, literally meaning "Great Fungus") is an enormous fungal growth in the Upper Underdark under the continent of Faerûn. It is a single organism living beneath the High Forest between one and three miles under the surface, immune to magic and resistant to psionic energy. Araumycos will sometimes attack intruders with poison, spores, and manifestations that resemble oozes and slimes.[3]

Araumycos houses many other fungal creatures. Travel within it is difficult since many passages and caves are blocked by it and damage regenerates quickly.[3]
More FR references ...



nhabitants
The Underdark is home to many predators, races and fantasy monsters, most of which are hostile. These include:

Aboleths
Beholders
Derro
Drow (dark elves)
Duergar (gray dwarves)
Dwarves
Fomorian
Illithids (Mind Flayers)
Hook horrors
Kuo-toa
Myconids (Fungus-men)
Pech
Svirfneblin (Deep Gnomes)
Troglodyte
There is no unified underground government since each individual city-state has a different form of rule. The Underdark economy deals primarily in armor, exotic goods, magic, slaves, timber and weapons. The ethical code of many indigenous races tends toward evil or neutral.

In the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, R.A. Salvatore created the drow Underdark city Menzoberranzan.[9]


Yet another bleeping FR reference. A bunch of Daelkyr creations. Duergar aren't there... they are the dwarves who were corrupted by something (a demon overlord iirc) & got left behind by the other dwarves wghen the dwarves fled Risia (a bleeping Plane) rather than being helped by their brothers.


There is quite litterally no reason to call Khyber The Underdark and a huge number of reasons that calling Khyber The Underdark does grave damage to khyber. Not only does it make things harder for an eberron GM, but it does so needlessly. If the PHB had a huge cutout aout how elves were a slave race magebred by the giants of xendriik from captured eldar & that the drow were made to hunt down rebel elf slaves, Pelor was just one of the 30some demon overlords, & mind flayers are daelkyr creations with one of them serving as the mayor of graywall you might be able to say it's not a big deal... but we know that all of those things didn't rate high enough for page space over yet another bit of FR's lore.

[Arkhios]

@ Tetrasodium:

From your own quote from WIKIPEDIA:

Use in campaign settings

The Underdark featured prominently in the campaign settings World of Greyhawk[2] and the Forgotten Realms.[3] The concept of a dungeon that spanned a planet was first introduced by Gary Gygax in his D-series of game modules[4] and at the end of the G-series. The Underdark was described in detail in the 1986 manual Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, by Doug Niles.[5] It was also part of the Eberron campaign setting, in which it was called Khyber and was home to evil beings driven deep into the caverns at the end of the age of demons.[6]

A review for Pyramid refers to the Underdark as "one of the most well known facets of the Forgotten Realms".[7] Much of the literary attention for this deep underworld stemmed from the sourcebooks and accessories for the Forgotten Realms setting, including R.A. Salvatore's novels about the fictional character Drizzt Do'Urden.[3]

The Underdark was also the setting for the expansion pack to the computer game Neverwinter Nights called Hordes of the Underdark, which featured the port city of Lith My'athar, and the mysterious Seer.[8]


Notice the red text. Even Wikipedia addresses Underdark having been a part of Eberron at least some point, and has been called Khyber. Whether that's accurate information or not, I admit I don't know. But since you quoted WIKIPEDIA as credible and/or setting neutral platform, I'm inclined to believe so. Then again, Wikipedia isn't always accurate, so it might be the case here, as well.

Now, whether Eberron's Underdark a.k.a. Khyber is exactly alike with Greyhawk's or Forgotten Realms's Underdarks, that's a whole another issue.
More to the point, to my knowledge, no one said that Eberron's Drow came from Khyber-slash-Underdark, for example.

[Tetrasodium]

@ Tetrasodium:

From your own quote from WIKIPEDIA:



Notice the red text. Even Wikipedia addresses Underdark being called Khyber in Eberron. Period.

Now, whether Eberron's Underdark a.k.a. Khyber is exactly alike with Greyhawk's or Forgotten Realms's Underdark, that's a whole another issue.

The problem is not a matter of if khyber is " exactly alike with Greyhawk's or Forgotten Realms's Underdark". The problem is the facxt that they are so incredibly different that content made for "The Underdark" including the vast majority of underdark references in both the PHB, Monster manual, volos/mtof are FR specific and in conflict with khyber on top of often being wildly inaccurate for eberron (ie drow/duergar are too different). Wotc chose to be FR specific with The underdark in every 5e book so far, it's completely unreasonable to say that khyber fits all that FR specific stuff at this late stage in the game. Inclusiveness might have been a reasonabl goal four or five years ago when 5e was new & they wrre churning out core books... five years in of FR exclusive core books & supplements when eberron is getting its first hardcover is the wrong time to call for inclusiveness on things like this. There is no commonality and an overload of FR specific detail to "The underdark" that wildly conflicts with eberron. It's so bad that a significant, and well liked, chunk of both wgte & mormisc had to be dedicated to refluffing the FR specific race/class fluff on the phb races & classes so they fit eberron instead.

[Arkhios]

The problem is not a matter of if khyber is " exactly alike with Greyhawk's or Forgotten Realms's Underdark". The problem is the facxt that they are so incredibly different that content made for "The Underdark" including the vast majority of underdark references in both the PHB, Monster manual, volos/mtof are FR specific and in conflict with khyber on top of often being wildly inaccurate for eberron (ie drow/duergar are too different). Wotc chose to be FR specific with The underdark in every 5e book so far, it's completely unreasonable to say that khyber fits all that FR specific stuff at this late stage in the game. Inclusiveness might have been a reasonabl goal four or five years ago when 5e was new & they wrre churning out core books... five years in of FR exclusive core books & supplements when eberron is getting its first hardcover is the wrong time to call for inclusiveness on things like this. There is no commonality and an overload of FR specific detail to "The underdark" that wildly conflicts with eberron. It's so bad that a significant, and well liked, chunk of both wgte & mormisc had to be dedicated to refluffing the FR specific race/class fluff on the phb races & classes so they fit eberron instead.

It all boils down to semantics. Eberron's Khyber might be referenced as equivalent to a place known as Underdark in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, because Khyber is said to be inside Eberron and Eberron is a planet. Whatever's inside a planet's surface is Under the surface and quite likely a dark place. Still, that doesn't immediately mean they are alike in any way -- if at all. Underdark might as well be just a word, meaning a dark place under somewhere.
Even in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, Underdark is not a metaphysical place, located on another plane etc. It's a physical place in the material plane, deep below the surface, spanning the entire world. And in many ways, a separate world within a world.

Different cultures are known to have called similar places with a same name, or entirely different places with a same name. There's nothing out of the ordinary if Eberron's Khyber has also been called as Underdark by Eberron's residents (and/or Keith Baker, or anyone from the crew who had their role in creating the setting to what it's today). By Lore as written, Eberron has been cut off from the other worlds for so long that it has had the time and freedom to evolve towards its own direction. But same words can come up and still have a different meaning.

TL;DR: Underdark in Eberron is not necessarily equal to Underdark in Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms.

At its core, it's just a word being used to refer to some place, somewhere. That place might have different names, such as Khyber in Eberron.
As far as I know, Eberron's lore has been established as different from the "default", throughout the wgte and in all books of the past editions.

So what if WotC has chosen to depict FR as the "default" for 5th edition D&D, along with different books establishing the default lore. If Eberron books say it time and again, that its lore is different, then it is. And frankly, we don't know everything the Rise from the Last War will hold inside its covers, but if I had to guess, it's going to have a lot of information for how to adapt the lore from previous books so that it fits Eberron's lore instead.

[Tetrasodium]

@ Tetrasodium:

More to the point, to my knowledge, no one said that Eberron's Drow came from Khyber-slash-Underdark, for example.

To address your edit, it's difficult enough for a GM to shatter the overload of FR specific lore attached to everything in the core books (races, classes, etc) without the added hassle of WotC muddying the waters with taking a term strongly associated with enormous amounts of FR lore & associating it with something eberron specific that has nothing in common with the FR version/ Nobody has said that is correct, but thet don't need to... Salvatore has been writing drizzt books for 30(?) years now. "The underdark is the home of the drow & the drow are $FRversion" id the one thing most people will say if asked what the underdark is. Khyber is not home of the drow & the drow culture in eberron are nothing like the drow of FR. But don't take my word for it... Google what is the underdark (https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+the+underdarl&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS859US859&oq=what+is+the+underdarl&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.7119j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8), the first link goes to the FR wiki (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Underdark) entry for the underdark, the second is that already covered wikipedia entry. The first video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhGGQJoq8nU) is about the underdark of FR. The second video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfPQJeMSQl0) is about underdark races & doesn't even make it to 30 seconds before talking about faerun history. The third video & link are no better. Keep in mind that the XgE18 cutout for Serving a Pantheon, Philosophy, or Force had o be included there because they left it out of the PHB & the section of the dmg god of your world 10-13 section switches from talking about examples from FR & other relatively compatible near identical settings to real world examples rather than the one setting where that is the norm.

[Arkhios]

-snip- Khyber is not home of the drow & the drow culture in eberron are nothing like the drow of FR. But don't take my word for it... Google -snip-

Allow me to rephrase: no one said: "Khyber is the Home of the Drow, and the Drow culture in Eberron is like the drow of FR."

I definitely did not say that. What I don't know is, if it's true that Underdark was (at some point) part of Eberron and was called Khyber in Eberron. But what I do know is Eberron's Drow and their culture is not like the drow of FR, even without having you say that. I don't need to take your word for it. I've been acquainted with Eberron since it's release.

You're not the only one who knows stuff about Eberron. I know, and admit it, that I'm not familiar with all the minutiae, but I know a lot, nonetheless. And I can guarantee that there are more than just you and me.

[Tetrasodium]

Allow me to rephrase: no one said: "Khyber is the Home of the Drow, and the Drow culture in Eberron is like the drow of FR."

I definitely did not say that. What I don't know is, if it's true that Underdark was (at some point) part of Eberron and was called Khyber in Eberron. But what I do know is Eberron's Drow and their culture is not like the drow of FR, even without having you say that. I don't need to take your word for it. I've been acquainted with Eberron since it's release.

You're not the only one who knows stuff about Eberron. I know, and admit it, that I'm not familiar with all the minutiae, but I know a lot, nonetheless. And I can guarantee that there are more than just you and me.

Just like nobody needs to say thatthe salvatore style drow live in The Underdark, it's no question that they are strongly associated with The underdark & slashing through the boatloads of FR lore that is present in the core books is already such a chore that even though 3,5 & 4e had to have the ten things you should know/ten important facts (ecs 8-9/ecg4-5)into a sixteen page spread on wgte 4-20 due to people only reading the first sentence of thing/fact one in the old version... and keith has said that he wishes that section could have been quite a bit larger.

There's nothing to gain for an eberron campaign in calling it "The underdark"; but if your goal is to make ii easy to inadvertently or deliberately loredump FR stuff ias isnto eberron while ignoring that guidance then you have a valid but terrible point due to the fact that it excludes itself from an eberron specific book. Unfortunately, inclusiveness in that regard doesn't work given the fact that the entire elf entry is written to describe how elves are in FR & FR-like settings even though they are wildly different in both eberron & Athas (likewise with halflings). Nod only is the drow entry in the PHBentirelyabout FR's drow & any drow that happen to be compatible; the cutout about drizzt gets even more pagespace than the fluff on the drow entry itself... Neither one of them mentions that it's talking about forgotten realms & FR compatible settings.

[JackPhoenix]

The drow of eberron are so incredibly different from the drow of FR & Greyhawk that you can't even say "but eberron has drow too". What's more is that the drow of eberron do not bleeping live in Khyber, they mostly live on the continent of xendriik.

Umbragen begs to differ.

I won't bother to point out how irrelevant the wiki entry you're talking about is to Eberron, and further mistakes you've made in that post. Instead, I'll check what the actual books have to say (emphasis mine):
Khyber, the Dragon Below, comprises the underdark of the world, the labyrinthine caverns that snake beneath the surface and fill the depths of the planet. Khyber consists of twisting tunnels that open on vaults of varying shapes and sizes. This subterranean expanse mirrors the world above, a dark reflection of underground rivers, still lakes, and fiery streams of molten lava

The underdark of Eberron, Khyber stretches below the surface to depths that few can imagine. Known as the Dragon Below in some myths and revered by vile cultists across Khorvaire, Khyber remains a dangerous, foreboding underworld that only reluctantly gives up any of its dark secrets.While Khyber exists beneath every continent, few paths lead directly to its sinister depths. Across Khorvaire, the most well known passages can be found in the Demon Wastes, Droaam, and Q’barra, and rumors of other less frequented (and perhaps less guarded) portals are whispered of among the Cults of the Dragon Below.

It is a realm without hope, without sanity, without light—but not without life. Endless darkness, crushing rock, winding corridors, and sunless seas fill the vastness beneath the surface of Eberron. This realm is Khyber, the Dragon Below, an Underdark world that lurk likes a ravenous maw beneath the feet of surface dwellers.

Khyber is larger than the lands of Eberron, stretching beneath the ocean floors as thoroughly as it winds beneath the continents above. Thousands upon thousands of miles stretch and wind and bulge through the heart of Eberron, and every person on all the continents, working together, couldn’t map its reaches.
Notably absent: any mention of Khyber being a different plane. That's from Keith's blog, and while he's Eberron's creator, his blog posts are *not* canon, a fact he mentions repeatedly throughout.

Next time you get angry about something, at least get your facts straight first.

[Tetrasodium]

Umbragen begs to differ.

I won't bother to point out how irrelevant the wiki entry you're talking about is to Eberron, and further mistakes you've made in that post. Instead, I'll check what the actual books have to say (emphasis mine):



Notably absent: any mention of Khyber being a different plane. That's from Keith's blog, and while he's Eberron's creator, his blog posts are *not* canon, a fact he mentions repeatedly throughout.

Next time you get angry about something, at least get your facts straight first.

I could say the same to you...

Certain caverns in Khyber contain pathways into the ultimate depths of The Dragon Below, the infinite vastness of the Elemental Chaos (see page 263).[/url]

[quote=ECG263]Passages in the deepest parts of Khyber open into the Elemental Chaos. also called the Chaos of Khyber.
Full of destruction and danger. this is the birthplace of the fiendish Overlords of the Age of Demons. These overlords include beings that are identified as primordials, demon princes. and even deities in the core D&D rules. and include Lolth and Tiamat.

Influence: The influence of the Elemental Chaos is felt most strongly in the subterranean realm of Khyber, but it occasionally reaches as far as the surface of Eberron. The most common effect of its
proximity is the manifestation of an affinity related to
certain powers. such as the following effects:
[snip 4e mechanics]
A few regions with in the Chaos of Khyber have a certain permanence that is fundamentally alien to its entropic nature.
[and then it goes on to talk about a bunch of planescape stuff haphazzardly dumped over the not entirely compatible but sometimes similar planes]

Much like dragon408 had to rebuild Baator in a way that tried to fit eberron rather than preserve non-eberron lore as is complete with supporting lore as 4e did in many cases; Keith's blog entry attempts to do the same. There is also the fact that published information on eberron's planes and khyber is both very scattered & thin. That lack of compiled & well fleshed out published source material for khyber is exactly why Khyber should not be called eberron's underdark. There are deserts on earth that have enough in common with the surface of mars to be useful for testing mars rovers/landers, but there is no "$continent's Mars" & trying to claim there is would be just as ridiculous & cringeworthy as claiming Khyber is Eberron's Underdark.

Thankfully, we don't need to consider the planescape & FR cetric stuff that 4e tried to dump into eberron since WotC saw the error of that & 5e is going with the ring of Siberyis keeping eberron & it's planes separate from those of planescape & FR. Given that, the argumet for calling Khyber "Eberron's underdark" is even weaker & I don't think any of the people in favor of doing so would be thrilled by a massive makeover of FR's underdark, pantheon, & deific/fiendish lore in order to fit Khyber into it's underdark... Even if some where, there is little doubt that an army of drizzt fans would lose their collective bleep in an apoplectic fit of rage. Before you think about turning that around, I simply said that it makes me cringe to hear Khyber being called eberron's Underdark & was inundated by posts from you & others trying to claim why it should be called such.

[Dork_Forge]

I could say the same to you...
[quote=ECG8]Certain caverns in Khyber contain pathways into the ultimate depths of The Dragon Below, the infinite vastness of the Elemental Chaos (see page 263).[/url]


Much like dragon408 had to rebuild Baator in a way that tried to fit eberron rather than preserve non-eberron lore as is complete with supporting lore as 4e did in many cases; Keith's blog entry attempts to do the same. There is also the fact that published information on eberron's planes and khyber is both very scattered & thin. That lack of compiled & well fleshed out published source material for khyber is exactly why Khyber should not be called eberron's underdark. There are deserts on earth that have enough in common with the surface of mars to be useful for testing mars rovers/landers, but there is no "$continent's Mars" & trying to claim there is would be just as ridiculous & cringeworthy as claiming Khyber is Eberron's Underdark.

Thankfully, we don't need to consider the planescape & FR cetric stuff that 4e tried to dump into eberron since WotC saw the error of that & 5e is going with the ring of Siberyis keeping eberron & it's planes separate from those of planescape & FR. Given that, the argumet for calling Khyber "Eberron's underdark" is even weaker & I don't think any of the people in favor of doing so would be thrilled by a massive makeover of FR's underdark, pantheon, & deific/fiendish lore in order to fit Khyber into it's underdark... Even if some where, there is little doubt that an army of drizzt fans would lose their collective bleep in an apoplectic fit of rage. Before you think about turning that around, I simply said that it makes me cringe to hear Khyber being called eberron's Underdark & was inundated by posts from you & others trying to claim why it should be called such.

Nothing you said really contradicts the other posters, and what you quoted, if anything, just says that there's essentially portals to a plane of Chaos in Khyber?

And I don't know if you're confused on this or not, nobody has said that Khyber is THE SAME Underdark from FR or anywhere else, just that it is the equivalent in Eberron, and seeing how it seems to be a vast subterranean realm... The comparison seems apt and isn't really insulting?

[JackPhoenix]

I could say the same to you...
[quote=ECG8]Certain caverns in Khyber contain pathways into the ultimate depths of The Dragon Below, the infinite vastness of the Elemental Chaos (see page 263).[/url]

That's great. There are manifest zones and portals to Elemental Chaos (or Fernia and Risia and other planes in non-4e terms) in Khyber. I'm aware of the fact. What I'm not aware of is how's that relevant to anything being discussed.


Much like dragon408 had to rebuild Baator in a way that tried to fit eberron rather than preserve non-eberron lore as is complete with supporting lore as 4e did in many cases; Keith's blog entry attempts to do the same. There is also the fact that published information on eberron's planes and khyber is both very scattered & thin. That lack of compiled & well fleshed out published source material for khyber is exactly why Khyber should not be called eberron's underdark. There are deserts on earth that have enough in common with the surface of mars to be useful for testing mars rovers/landers, but there is no "$continent's Mars" & trying to claim there is would be just as ridiculous & cringeworthy as claiming Khyber is Eberron's Underdark.

Well, if you want to call the very first Eberron book cringeworthy, that's your choice. Because the first 2 bits I've quoted, the ones that actually call Khyber "underdark of Eberron", come from 3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting. Not 4e, not magazines, not a blog. The original published Eberron product.


Thankfully, we don't need to consider the planescape & FR cetric stuff that 4e tried to dump into eberron since WotC saw the error of that & 5e is going with the ring of Siberyis keeping eberron & it's planes separate from those of planescape & FR. Given that, the argumet for calling Khyber "Eberron's underdark" is even weaker & I don't think any of the people in favor of doing so would be thrilled by a massive makeover of FR's underdark, pantheon, & deific/fiendish lore in order to fit Khyber into it's underdark... Even if some where, there is little doubt that an army of drizzt fans would lose their collective bleep in an apoplectic fit of rage. Before you think about turning that around, I simply said that it makes me cringe to hear Khyber being called eberron's Underdark & was inundated by posts from you & others trying to claim why it should be called such.

FR's Underdark has nothing to do with Eberron's Khyber. They are the same thing conceptually (vast underground landscape full of weirdness), but they each have their on take on the same concept, there's no "makeover" or attempt to fit one into the other. You're the only one making that, completely baseless I might add, claim.

Khyber should be called Eberron's underdark because that's what it's been called from the very beginning. It doesn't mean it's the same as FR Underdark. Different things may be called the same, you know? Nobody insists that D&D elves, Tolkien's elves, Santa's elves and any of the thousands of kinds of elves out there is the same because each of them is called "elf".

[Tetrasodium]

That's great. There are manifest zones and portals to Elemental Chaos (or Fernia and Risia and other planes in non-4e terms) in Khyber. I'm aware of the fact. What I'm not aware of is how's that relevant to anything being discussed.
It's relevant becauseyou demanded a wotc published source showing dimensional/planar activity & pockets, I gave you one& you complain that some of those things exist elsewhere in eberron (yet ignore that they are not in FR)




Well, if you want to call the very first Eberron book cringeworthy, that's your choice. Because the first 2 bits I've quoted, the ones that actually call Khyber "underdark of Eberron", come from 3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting. Not 4e, not magazines, not a blog. The original published Eberron product.
Eberron is over 15 years old. What may have seemed like a trivial & insignificant reference then is no longer the case with all the rears of FR specific underdark content, novels, & Video games. You aren't even attempting to make arguments for why Khyber should be called eberron's underdark, just complaining that reasons it should not are not good enough.



FR's Underdark has nothing to do with Eberron's Khyber. They are the same thing conceptually (vast underground landscape full of weirdness), but they each have their on take on the same concept, there's no "makeover" or attempt to fit one into the other. You're the only one making that, completely baseless I might add, claim.

Khyber should be called Eberron's underdark because that's what it's been called from the very beginning. It doesn't mean it's the same as FR Underdark. Different things may be called the same, you know? Nobody insists that D&D elves, Tolkien's elves, Santa's elves and any of the thousands of kinds of elves out there is the same because each of them is called "elf".

the very beginning was over 15 years ago, what was a trivial & casual reference all those years ago is no longer the case with thousands of pages published devoted to FR's underdark, multiple video games exploring it, & all of the 5e core books mentioning only FR's underdark norms.

Do you have any arguments why it should be called eberron's underdark or is "both are underground & dangerous/weird" the entire dead horse you are flogging while ignoring all the glaring & harmful flaws in the comparison?

[Envyus]

It's not either of those things & the only way you could claim that is willful ignorance. In FR & other settings using the planescape planes, the nine hells is a specific plane with specific things going on. Khyber has zero in common with it. Khyber has bound demon overlords, imprisoned Daelkyr, various pocket dimensions, so on and so forth.

I was not talking about the D&D Nine Hells. I was talking about Hell in general as a home of evil and fiends.

[Envyus]

It's relevant becauseyou demanded a wotc published source showing dimensional/planar activity & pockets, I gave you one& you complain that some of those things exist elsewhere in eberron (yet ignore that they are not in FR)

No they did not. They just said Khyber itself is not a different plane. Which it's not going by what you linked. It's the Underdark equivalent that has portals and other stuff that links to other planes in it. (Also that stuff is in FR, there are tons of portals and places influenced by other planes. )

[Tetrasodium]

I was not talking about the D&D Nine Hells. I was talking about Hell in general as a home of evil and fiends.

It's not their "home" The demon overlords were bound by the during the age of demons when the Couatls sacrificed themselves, to create the Kalok Shash/binding flame/silver flame. Many of them are native to eberron. Khybr is as much their "home" as a cryosleep/stasis chamber on a space ship is "home" of a space explorer in some scifi work of fiction. But your statement highlights another example of why conflating the two settings can be so problematic; There are too many differences & even well meaning ones like you made can be problematic because it forces the GM to either stop correct or have their campaign's setting integrity disrupted by a never ending deluge of lore from FR. As to fiends in eberron, they too have a very different & scattered hard to put together role than they fo in FR & Planescape. Eberron's "bloodwar" analogue was ended at the very beginning of time, the Lords of Dust (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/The_Lords_of_Dust) might be the best known demons aside from perhaps Bel Shalor (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Bel_Shalor) & you can find him in bleeping Flameep (CoSF's Vatican analog) with his influence being a major plot point for the CoSF. The Lords of Dust are themselves less a specific group of individuals than they are a loose collection of individuals working to manipulate the prophecy in order to one day unbind the demon overlords.

Eberron has 13 planes, those planes are not simply elements, they embody themes tangentially related to their elements such as Syrania the Azure Sky also embodying peace, hope, tranquility, etc with celestials & fiends from that plane embodying positive & negative aspects of those kinds of things.

[Envyus]

It's not their "home" The demon overlords were bound by the during the age of demons when the Couatls sacrificed themselves, to create the Kalok Shash/binding flame/silver flame. Many of them are native to eberron. Khybr is as much their "home" as a cryosleep/stasis chamber on a space ship is "home" of a space explorer in some scifi work of fiction.

Man you are super nitpicky. I meant home in that they live there. The mythological Hell was the Demons prison as well. Would you have prefered I called Khyber a mix of the Underdark and the Abyss instead.

[Tetrasodium]

Man you are super nitpicky. I meant home in that they live there. The mythological Hell was the Demons prison as well. Would you have prefered I called Khyber a mix of the Underdark and the Abyss instead.

It's wildly different from both of those too because both of those have massive boatloads of lore specific to planes that do not exist in eberron & deific/celestial/fiendish/demonic struggles that are wildly in conflict with eberron. Also... The demon overlords are not simply demons or princes of hell, they are more like forces of nature & low level concepts of physics given free will. Not only that... the ones who are "Imprisoned" are the Daelkyr (remember them? they created mindflayers, beholders , & more). The demon overlords are "Bound". The daelkyr are able to act & do whatever they have been doing for the last nine thousand years or so because they rare just sealed there. The demon overlords are bound & unable to exert their will.

If eberron's baselines were applied to FR & planescape you wouldn't be complaining about split hairs & nitpicks, you'd be complaining that entire systems were destroyed and suddenly in conflict with themselves

[Envyus]

It's not the exact same, but it's the equivalent. A Mix of the Underdark and the Abyss.

Keith Baker even said so himself.


“Khyber” has different meanings. It’s both the physical underdark—any vast subterranean cavern or system of tunnels—and a network of demiplanes filling a role similar to the Abyss."
https://twitter.com/HellcowKeith/status/1091472838966444033?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1091472838966444033&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2019%2F0 3%2F03%2Fare-underground-entrances-to-khyber-considered-portals%2F

This is from this year.

[SodaQueen]

Can't we all just be really hype for 5e Eberron without engaging in really needless semantics (seriously Tetrasodium, take a chill pill). Thank you for sharing though! I'm super excited for Eberron and I'll go check that out.

[Tectorman]

Can't we all just be really hype for 5e Eberron without engaging in really needless semantics (seriously Tetrasodium, take a chill pill). Thank you for sharing though! I'm super excited for Eberron and I'll go check that out.

Agreed! The very next words illustrate exactly what Chris meant: "the underground realm". Nothing more than that. If we can let Lyrandar's monopoly on airships (when it's really a joint venture by Zilargo, Cannith, and Lyrandar) slide for the sake of not getting into an irrelevant tangent, surely the happenstance choice of the word "underdark" (as happenstance now as it was 15 years ago) doesn't merit all this headache.

[Tetrasodium]

Agreed! The very next words illustrate exactly what Chris meant: "the underground realm". Nothing more than that. If we can let Lyrandar's monopoly on airships (when it's really a joint venture by Zilargo, Cannith, and Lyrandar) slide for the sake of not getting into an irrelevant tangent, surely the happenstance choice of the word "underdark" (as happenstance now as it was 15 years ago) doesn't merit all this headache.

Weirdly, I though that I was pretty positive aout the video overall, even when I mentioned that eberron's underdark made me cringe I followed it with quite a bit about why it was reasonable to let it slide in this case

I don't really have any complaints or concerns about things mentioned in it, but the mention of khyber being eberron's underdark makes me cringe. Knowing rising probably doesn't focus much on khyber combined that it was kind of a vague offhand reference made as part of the creation myth before moving back to the eberron/khyber/siberyis dragonshards discussion rather than a direct comparison or detailed dive on khyber leaves it as just a cringe-worthy moment.The khyber:underdark comparison if ever developed or put in print is problematic because the two are so intensely different with "underdark is underground & khyber is sorta underground" being the biggest & pretty much only commonality.

Weirdly there were a bunch of people who ignored all the positive stuff I said & got extremely offended that khyber might have so little in common with The Underdark of FR sourcebooks/adventures, Salvatore's novels, & FR video games that the two should best not be conflated. On a message board that kind of thing is a diversion... At the table, it's a constant headache.

[Tectorman]

No, the second post just asked you to explain the difference you perceived between FR's Underdark and Eberron's Khyber. The following post started off with an accusation of willful ignorance. It's not at all weird that people tend to take exception to being accused of participating in a conversation in poor faith.

[SodaQueen]

Weirdly, I though that I was pretty positive aout the video overall, even when I mentioned that eberron's underdark made me cringe I followed it with quite a bit about why it was reasonable to let it slide in this case


Weirdly there were a bunch of people who ignored all the positive stuff I said & got extremely offended that khyber might have so little in common with The Underdark of FR sourcebooks/adventures, Salvatore's novels, & FR video games that the two should best not be conflated. On a message board that kind of thing is a diversion... At the table, it's a constant headache.And that's completely fair, especially if this is a pet peeve for you! Goodness knows I have mine.

I do disagree as I use "underdark" as an umbrella term to refer to any fantasy setting's absurdly large underground area but for the record, if anyone was saying that Khyber was the same thing as the space beneath Faerûn, then yeah I'd totally agree with you. But what I think people are taking umbrage with is that noone is actually saying that and that came off as rather abrasive in defense of your position.

But again! That's totally fine, we all have things that bug us and, my dudes, 5e EBERRON. IT'S COMING :D

[Tetrasodium]

No, the second post just asked you to explain the difference you perceived between FR's Underdark and Eberron's Khyber. The following post started off with an accusation of willful ignorance. It's not at all weird that people tend to take exception to being accused of participating in a conversation in poor faith.

I did explain and this is without naming names it is not the first time that many of these same individuals have engaged in this sort of back & forth. Nor is it the worst example of willful ignorance & willful blindness. In fact I've argued with more than one over videos related to previous books where people from wotc said things like x applies to all worlds in the shared multiverse including eberron when x is violently problematic to eberron's lore & enirelyconsisting of lore from FR.

The poster in question who was quoted even came back later to clarify his point by trying to clarify his statement into something problematic in even more ways that extend well beyond just khyber. Willful ignorance or not, claiming that the conflation of khyber & the underdark is reasonable & justified while being woefully unaware of how eberron &khyber differs from FR & Planescape or FR's underdark is an extremely unreasonable position.

[Arkhios]

Weirdly, I though that I was pretty positive aout the video overall, even when I mentioned that eberron's underdark made me cringe I followed it with quite a bit about why it was reasonable to let it slide in this case


Weirdly there were a bunch of people who ignored all the positive stuff I said & got extremely offended that khyber might have so little in common with The Underdark of FR sourcebooks/adventures, Salvatore's novels, & FR video games that the two should best not be conflated. On a message board that kind of thing is a diversion... At the table, it's a constant headache.

I didn't ignore any of that. I merely pointed out a flaw in your argument that Khyber is not Underdark, even according to Wikipedia (as you said yourself) while the very same quote from Wikipedia (picked by yourself) did say otherwise.

And frankly, just as much airship business is a joint venture of several dragonmarked houses, so is the setting of Eberron in its final form: a joint effort including but not limited to Keith Baker, Bill Slavicsek, and James Wyatt. While Baker provided the idea, it wasn't finished overnight solely by him. All the details we know have been made by the best designers D&D has ever known. I argue, in the recent light (from my perspective) that Underdark has indeed been mentioned in the same sentence with Khyber in the factual first official book, that it's not irrelevant information. It was part of the original Eberron lore, and it is that now, whether you like it or not. You don't have the sole right to determine what should or shouldn't be considered relevant information, especially not based on your personal preference and grief towards FR as a setting. If it's in official lore, then it's just as relevant as the rules as written in each and every edition.

But again, I did notice all the positive things in your first post. I was just as nitpicky on one piece of information as you were. Get your facts straight before you make an argument. And acknowledge your own nitpickiness when someone responds in kind.

[JackPhoenix]

It's relevant becauseyou demanded a wotc published source showing dimensional/planar activity & pockets, I gave you one& you complain that some of those things exist elsewhere in eberron (yet ignore that they are not in FR)

I did no such thing. And even here, you're wrong: FR's Underdark certainly has access points to various demiplanes. At least one features in Out of the Abyss (plus, you know, bunch of demons summoned from different plane roaming around). There's also malfunctioning machine of extraplanar origins messing with reality, put there by extraplanar race making a regular visit. That's just a single adventure.


Eberron is over 15 years old. What may have seemed like a trivial & insignificant reference then is no longer the case with all the rears of FR specific underdark content, novels, & Video games. You aren't even attempting to make arguments for why Khyber should be called eberron's underdark, just complaining that reasons it should not are not good enough.

the very beginning was over 15 years ago, what was a trivial & casual reference all those years ago is no longer the case with thousands of pages published devoted to FR's underdark, multiple video games exploring it, & all of the 5e core books mentioning only FR's underdark norms.

FR specific Underdark content is completely irrelevant to Eberron. It wasn't relevant when Eberron has first released, and it's not relevant now, 15 years later.


Do you have any arguments why it should be called eberron's underdark or is "both are underground & dangerous/weird" the entire dead horse you are flogging while ignoring all the glaring & harmful flaws in the comparison?

Sure. I've already presented that argument: It should be called Eberron's underdark, because multiple Eberron books called it "Eberron's underdark".


It's not their "home"

It is. It's both the place where they originated from, and the place of their current residence for many (though not most) of them, ignoring the bound ones. Daelkyr and their minions aren't the only ones around, even if nothing else, slain native fiends respawn in Khyber.


Eberron's "bloodwar" analogue was ended at the very beginning of time

Eberron's "Blood War" analogue is still going. It's not the same as FR (or generic D&D setting's) Blood War, but devils and demons (and archons) fought in Shavarath about since that plane was created, and it is very unlikely they will stop as long as it exists.


I do disagree as I use "underdark" as an umbrella term to refer to any fantasy setting's absurdly large underground area

That seems to be the case. Note that "underdark" is not capitalized in both 3.5 quotes I've posted above. It's used as a descriptor or generic term, not proper name. 4e uses Underdark, but then, 4e has more serious flaws from lore perspective, and was very fond of random capitalization.


I did explain and this is without naming names it is not the first time that many of these same individuals have engaged in this sort of back & forth. Nor is it the worst example of willful ignorance & willful blindness.

Well, obviously. Eberron is my favorite setting, and I don't like anyone, opponent or fan, spreading misinformations about it. Semantics? Certainly, in some cases... but often, people are just plain wrong. When people stop making wrongful claims about Eberron, I'll stop calling them out on it.


The poster in question who was quoted even came back later to clarify his point by trying to clarify his statement into something problematic in even more ways that extend well beyond just khyber. Willful ignorance or not, claiming that the conflation of khyber & the underdark is reasonable & justified while being woefully unaware of how eberron &khyber differs from FR & Planescape or FR's underdark is an extremely unreasonable position.

Nobody claims that Khyber and FR's Underdark should be conflated. You're putting words into other people's proverbial mouths, perhaps due to "willful ignorance", perhaps due to simply misunderstanding what they are saying, but don't be surprised they are offended about that. Using the same term for both does not mean they are the same. There's plenty of similarities between them, there's plenty of differences.

[SodaQueen]

That seems to be the case. Note that "underdark" is not capitalized in both 3.5 quotes I've posted above. It's used as a descriptor or generic term, not proper name. 4e uses Underdark, but then, 4e has more serious flaws from lore perspective, and was very fond of random capitalization.You know, that's one of things I never noticed until it's pointed out but they really did do that a lot back in 4e

[Tetrasodium]

Well, obviously. Eberron is my favorite setting, and I don't like anyone, opponent or fan, spreading misinformations about it. Semantics? Certainly, in some cases... but often, people are just plain wrong. When people stop making wrongful claims about Eberron, I'll stop calling them out on it.

You actually weren't considered among those people & only came in later. You & I disagree on a lot of points whenever we but heads, but usually it's interpretation or what we consider valid sourcing.