Descent into Avernus what classes are good

[Whit]

don’t have access to MM but I hope someone can list the immunity and resistance of Baatezu and what other penalties for being in the hells. Such as spell restrictions if any.
As far as I can recall most fiends will have immunity to fire poison and resistance to all other element damage.

Elemental adept feat will only work on resistance not immunity.
So what classes will do good in the 9 hell’s

[Reevh]

So obviously Paladin will be good, because smites will work extra awesome against fiends.

Clerics will also be excellent. Any of the martial classes if you have access to magic weapons.

Mostly I'd just avoid anything elemental and blasty.

[Dessunri]

well i mean there's paladin or cleric for starters. Both have a very anti-undead thing going for them. Otherwise I think it's a matter of play what you like.

[Whit]

I was thinking warlock would be ok with max EB and buff spells.
Wizards sorcerers should suck vs immunity resistance and advantage spell saves. They would have to go buffing only

[Evaar]

Devils all have Devil's Sight. Don't plan to rely on magical darkness.

[JackPhoenix]

Big bad (propably, based on the cover image) is resistant to radiant damage, as former angel, but nothing else should be.

[Nhorianscum]

Mechanically? Paladin. It's paladin. Cleric, it's cleric.

Thematically? You will never see a character gen go faster than me slamming down Fiendlock in DA.

[Ason]

I agree that paladins and clerics will fare well, both mechanically and in terms of roleplaying.

If your group as access to UA or Eberron materials, however, I would suggest a gnome battlesmith artificer. WotC said in their promo videos that the Avernus portions will be like Mad Max, with heavy metal war-machines racing across the hellscape. An artificer is the perfect class for upgrading and maintaining such vehicles! But if you in particular play a gnome and take the battlesmith subclass (assuming the final release is roughly the same as the UA), you gain an iron defender which, as a small creature, you can ride as a mount. Depending on the speed of the Avernus vehicles, you could possibly reflavor that mounted iron defender as a motorcycle that you ride alongside the party's main war-machine, which cranks the Mad Max vibe up another notch.

[Ritorix]

Devils are fire/poison immune, demons resist fire/cold/lightning and immune to poison. That's going to be a problem for some damage-dealing casters. The hardest outsiders are also resistant to magic spells and nonmagical weapons. Warlocks should do ok regardless.

BUT, I have a feeling most enemies aren't so rough. There will be humanoids and other normal things. The module covers the low levels.

Paladins and clerics are obvious - too obvious. I don't think it's known yet if or how they will be affected in the hells, but it seems like they would be a target for corrupting influences.

Some classes seem like they would be fun for a planar campaign stuck in the hells. Horizon walkers, a drunken master, an inquisitor rogue able to see through the devils' lies.

Just make sure you bring a tiefling. Someone needs to be able to read all those infernal contracts.

[KRSW]

I think Arcana Cleric would actually be very powerful. Like SUPER GOOD.

[Foff]

Casters have plenty of viable options outside elemental damage, psychic, force, thunder being all represented at most tiers of play, even so, damaging things will mostly get you into more trouble than skipping fights alltogether, expecially in HELL.
Casters are REALLY good at skipping fights all together.
Casters WILL shine in a harsh environment where mundane means of survival will feel lacking.
Casters are stupid strong in any official setting i've seen so far for 5e...

[Callak_Remier]

I was think8ing warlock would be ok with max EB and buff spells.
Wizards sorcerers should suck vs immunity resistance and advantage spell saves. They would have to go buffing only

Just make sure to learn Acid spells and your fine.

If you went to avernus without a wizard, you would be committing suicide.

[Zerubbabel]

Paladin and Cleric if you're going for conflict and butchery.

But, I think Warlocks (especially pact of the Fiend) could play out very interesting and make a lot of good deals and bargains. You'd probably want to be a neutral aligned Warlock to mesh well with the Cleric spells which are anti-evil occasionally.

[Wizard_Lizard]

lore wise fiendlock could be interesting...

[jaappleton]

Avoid anything that’s focused on Fire damage.

For Paladin, I suggest Ancients the most. Lots of enemies throwing Fireball, their Aura will mitigate that and their channel Divinity works on Fiends.

If you’re going for a thematic Caster, focusing on perhaps a particular damage type, I suggest Thunder. If there were enough spells to round it out, I’d also suggest Psychic but there aren’t too many spells.

Lots of enemies not only resist Fire but also Cold and Lightning.

If you’re a Caster and not blasting, focus on action denial. Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, etc.

Avoid Light and Trickery Clerics. Grave, Life, and Tempest are my favorites for the adventure.

Here’s something they don’t outright tell you about the adventure. It’s somewhat implied but never stated:

YOU WANT MAGIC ITEMS ONCE YOU’RE ACTUALLY IN AVERNUS?! Make a deal with a Devil.

Because otherwise, you’re not getting any.

[Wizard_Lizard]

because dealing with devils NEVER goes wrong....

[Gecks]

A lot of great advice already posted here. One thing I'd like to add- while not as amazing against fiends as a paladin or cleric, the humble bard is also a really good choice for this setting. Tons of resistance independant buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control, along with a decent sprinkling of thunder and psychic damage spells. Bards can also use their expertise to get really good at persuasion, deception, and/or insight, so (assuming they can get the trust of the rest of the party), they might work great as the party's designated devil negotiator.

One thing to remember: as per the title, the first few levels of this adventure take place in the prime material, in the crime-ridden city of Baldur's Gate (hope no one considers that a spoiler or anything but, you know, title). You don't want to over-specialize for Avernus survival only to find yourself struggling to contribute / survive during the early levels of the campaign.

[jaappleton]

A lot of great advice already posted here. One thing I'd like to add- while not as amazing against fiends as a paladin or cleric, the humble bard is also a really good choice for this setting. Tons of resistance independant buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control, along with a decent sprinkling of thunder and psychic damage spells. Bards can also use their expertise to get really good at persuasion, deception, and/or insight, so (assuming they can get the trust of the rest of the party), they might work great as the party's designated devil negotiator.

One thing to remember: as per the title, the first few levels of this adventure take place in the prime material, in the crime-ridden city of Baldur's Gate (hope no one considers that a spoiler or anything but, you know, title). You don't want to over-specialize for Avernus survival only to find yourself struggling to contribute / survive during the early levels of the campaign.

My character in the campaign is going to be a Bard named Johnny, from Georgia, seeking a golden fiddle.

[Sigreid]

Doesn't asking this here take some of the mystery and fun out of the game?

[Gecks]

My character in the campaign is going to be a Bard named Johnny, from Georgia, seeking a golden fiddle.

Ha! Amazing, love it! :cool:

[KorvinStarmast]

Doesn't asking this here take some of the mystery and fun out of the game? Some people want advanced intel, some of us think of that as spoilers. :smallsmile: I'd see this as a personal preference.

I have reviewed the adventure. (Man, it's kinda complicated and a bit rail roady). I think a Druid and a Monk, who can both do damage with "magical attacks" once the reach level 6, would be an interesting adjunct to any party once they get into Avernus/underworld portion. The "above ground" bit seems to last until about level 6.

Of course, Paladins and Clerics and Warlocks should shine in this adventure, as mentioned above. Also, because there are negotiations a plenty, a rogue or bard would seem to have a lot of chances to shine as well.

[jaappleton]

Doesn't asking this here take some of the mystery and fun out of the game?

I’d normally agree with this sentiment.

However, adventures like Avernus and to a slightly lesser extent Curse of Strahd have a lot of enemies of a particular type, Fiend and Undead respectively.

While there’s a general idea that “Hey, Avernus, that’s in Hell. Probably should go with Fire Dragon Sorcerer.”

What many don’t realize is that those Fiends that are resistant to Fire? They’re also resistant to Cold.

And it’s such a CRAP feeling to have your character feel mitigated.

For a more general adventure? Tyranny of Dragons, Abyss, or Mad Mage? Play whatever, you should be fine overall.

But in an adventure like Avernus where many enemies are of a particular type? I totally get, and condone, not wanting to be ineffective against them.

I have the adventure. I’m going to be a player in it, not a DM. I plan on being a Bard because I’ll always be useful, but not super OP for the adventure (like, day, a Ghostslayer Blood Hunter would be for Strahd).

[BurgTurdler]

I'm not sure which I'd enjoy more: An Onomancer with the fiend summoning spells or an Artificer with a turret. I was also toying with the all-in evil Aasimar conquest paladin that makes a deal for power and becomes a zariel tiefling. Mmmm... Juicy.

What do you guys think of an Onomancer with 1st level Forge cleric for party buffs and magic weapon and the rest onomancer? Summon lesser demons, summon greater demons, and Infernal calling all say they have disadvantage if you know their true name. I see it as a shoe-in.

Thoughts?

[MrStabby]

I’d normally agree with this sentiment.

However, adventures like Avernus and to a slightly lesser extent Curse of Strahd have a lot of enemies of a particular type, Fiend and Undead respectively.

While there’s a general idea that “Hey, Avernus, that’s in Hell. Probably should go with Fire Dragon Sorcerer.”

What many don’t realize is that those Fiends that are resistant to Fire? They’re also resistant to Cold.

And it’s such a CRAP feeling to have your character feel mitigated.

For a more general adventure? Tyranny of Dragons, Abyss, or Mad Mage? Play whatever, you should be fine overall.

But in an adventure like Avernus where many enemies are of a particular type? I totally get, and condone, not wanting to be ineffective against them.

I have the adventure. I’m going to be a player in it, not a DM. I plan on being a Bard because I’ll always be useful, but not super OP for the adventure (like, day, a Ghostslayer Blood Hunter would be for Strahd).


I kind of feel like this makes the adventure somewhat badly designed. Unless you read it first you have a pretty substantial chance to have a really crappy time - even more so if you don't know what you are playing so cant even guess.

I get that a theme is nice and all but it would be nice if there was sufficient diversity such that you didn't really have to worry about your choices being terrible.

[jaappleton]

I kind of feel like this makes the adventure somewhat badly designed. Unless you read it first you have a pretty substantial chance to have a really crappy time - even more so if you don't know what you are playing so cant even guess.

I get that a theme is nice and all but it would be nice if there was sufficient diversity such that you didn't really have to worry about your choices being terrible.

Wouldn’t go quite as far as to say it’s badly designed.

If it’s going to be a thematic adventure like Strahd or Avernus, it comes with the territory.

And Fiends have always had many resistances. Many of the higher-end Undead as well, of course.

It’s why Radiant, Psychic, Force and Thunder are the best damage types to deal; they should work regardless of the adventure. Unfortunately some of the spells supporting those damage types are either lackluster or few and far between.

[NNescio]

Fiend Warlock. Because !!DRAMA!!

(No, it's not exactly optimal from a mechanical perspective, though some people may like the roleplaying opportunities.)

[Debaterinarms]

Warlock has a benefit that a number of people have not mentioned, many fiends can cast Darkness and Devils can see through it, but if you are a warlock with Devil's Sight you will still be able to cast spells and act unhindered. It is not exactly the benefit of counting on casting Darkness for Advantage that some prefer, but it is a decent benefit. Add in the at-will force damage and the role playing opportunities and you are in good shape. Of course, a bladelock could also guarantee a magic weapon, if you want to go that route.

[micahaphone]

A lore bard named Orpheum who buffs and controls the battleground.

A land druid who is chasing down the source of corruption, going all the way to the source.

A fire and brimstone end times preacher who mechanically is a tempest cleric.

[Eldariel]

Wizards are, as always, a prime candidate. Baatezu are a bit tricky to work with due to their immunities, but focus on control spells and you can make them your bitches (and by the gods, don't waste time being a blaster). Onomancer could be fun though the features of the class are sadly a bit lackluster - but it's still a Wizard so that's okay (you can also just Illusionist or Diviner or War Wizard or Theurge if you feel the need for more power). All the big spells in Wizard arsenal still work on them though you have to be careful not to run into Legendary Resistance, Magic Resistance and such (but spells such as minionmancy/summons, animation, walls and Telekinesis/Bigby's circumvent this handily).

[Bobthewizard]

Anything that makes your attacks magical would be useful in a low magic item campaign with resistant enemies - artificer, monk, shepherd druid, warlock's improved pact weapon, forge cleric. I'm sure there are others.

Lore wizard would be great here being able to change damage types. They are a little overpowered though. Otherwise, as others have said, buffing and battlefield control would be better than blasting for spellcasters.

And this has been mentioned but an ancients paladin's turn the faithless would be great.

[Safety Sword]

Wouldn’t go quite as far as to say it’s badly designed.

If it’s going to be a thematic adventure like Strahd or Avernus, it comes with the territory.



All of this can be avoided by the DM not telling you they're running a published adventure.

I mean, people who aren't optimised for hell are still going there if that's where the adventure leads them. I think it would be more fun to not know the plot before you start the adventure.

Personal preference I guess..

CoS was way more fun when you just ended up there without building a character for the final battle.

[Makorel]

For those saying that certain damage types gets stuffed by resistances in DA, would this not also make it the perfect campaign to take Elementalist as a feat?

[MrStabby]

All of this can be avoided by the DM not telling you they're running a published adventure.

I mean, people who aren't optimised for hell are still going there if that's where the adventure leads them. I think it would be more fun to not know the plot before you start the adventure.

Personal preference I guess..

CoS was way more fun when you just ended up there without building a character for the final battle.

Well this is what I was meaning by it being badly designed. Events befall the protagonists and some of them have a great time and some of them have a really crap time.

You roll up a red dragon elemental sorcerer in a party that picks a paladin, a cleric and a wizard you are going to feel pretty bad. Even if you were to play a cleric but to pick light cleric as you wanted to play with fireball then you are quite rightly going to be bitter that your campaign is immune to the reason you picked your character.

I think a campaign focused on a single creature type with either resistances/immunities/vulnerabilities or a clear pattern of strong/weak saves poses a lot of serious problems and a challenge to all players having fun.

[jaappleton]

Well this is what I was meaning by it being badly designed. Events befall the protagonists and some of them have a great time and some of them have a really crap time.

You roll up a red dragon elemental sorcerer in a party that picks a paladin, a cleric and a wizard you are going to feel pretty bad. Even if you were to play a cleric but to pick light cleric as you wanted to play with fireball then you are quite rightly going to be bitter that your campaign is immune to the reason you picked your character.

I think a campaign focused on a single creature type with either resistances/immunities/vulnerabilities or a clear pattern of strong/weak saves poses a lot of serious problems and a challenge to all players having fun.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Nobody wants their character to be rendered ineffective. And adventures like this? Without prior knowledge, its very easy for that to happen.

It can easily be solved with an open and honest Session Zero, but some DMs don't like to chat.

[Sception]

YOU WANT MAGIC ITEMS ONCE YOU’RE ACTUALLY IN AVERNUS?! Make a deal with a Devil.

Because otherwise, you’re not getting any.

Another strong reason to have an artificer in the party. Also makes forge cleric tempting.

I'm currently playing conquest pally. Most fiends, it turns out, aren't actually immune to frighten.

[Sception]

All of this can be avoided by the DM not telling you they're running a published adventure.

I mean, people who aren't optimised for hell are still going there if that's where the adventure leads them. I think it would be more fun to not know the plot before you start the adventure.

Personal preference I guess.

To me, that kind of thing is fun for an adventure that spans a session or three, but finding out my character's main mechanical gimmick will be useless for the entire campaign is another matter entirely. For that sort of thing, yeah, some forewarning before char gen would be nice.

[Eldariel]

Well this is what I was meaning by it being badly designed. Events befall the protagonists and some of them have a great time and some of them have a really crap time.

You roll up a red dragon elemental sorcerer in a party that picks a paladin, a cleric and a wizard you are going to feel pretty bad. Even if you were to play a cleric but to pick light cleric as you wanted to play with fireball then you are quite rightly going to be bitter that your campaign is immune to the reason you picked your character.

I think a campaign focused on a single creature type with either resistances/immunities/vulnerabilities or a clear pattern of strong/weak saves poses a lot of serious problems and a challenge to all players having fun.

Though to be fair, it's player's choice to focus character so narrowly; fire immunity is really common and a character focusing on fire spells probably knows that. Luckily spellcasters have little trouble switching spells and focusing differently though, so it's more a problem of some spells not working in certain environments, which I think is just fine. Mundanes are more problematic since if they can't get their magic weapons, good luck doing much of anything but that's just the inherent problem with picking a class that has no meaningful options (since this system caters 95 % of the options to spellcasters because reasons).

[jaappleton]

Though to be fair, it's player's choice to focus character so narrowly; fire immunity is really common and a character focusing on fire spells probably knows that. Luckily spellcasters have little trouble switching spells and focusing differently though, so it's more a problem of some spells not working in certain environments, which I think is just fine. Mundanes are more problematic since if they can't get their magic weapons, good luck doing much of anything but that's just the inherent problem with picking a class that has no meaningful options (since this system caters 95 % of the options to spellcasters because reasons).

Emphasis mine.

Unless using the new Variant Class Feature UA, Sorcerers would strongly disagree.

[MrStabby]

Though to be fair, it's player's choice to focus character so narrowly; fire immunity is really common and a character focusing on fire spells probably knows that. Luckily spellcasters have little trouble switching spells and focusing differently though, so it's more a problem of some spells not working in certain environments, which I think is just fine. Mundanes are more problematic since if they can't get their magic weapons, good luck doing much of anything but that's just the inherent problem with picking a class that has no meaningful options (since this system caters 95 % of the options to spellcasters because reasons).

I havent focussed so much on the martial characters as I haven't played the module so am not sure how common different items are. Not saying this isn't an issue, just saying I don't know it so well.


I think a sorcerer focused on fire should absolutely encounter a decent number of fire immune enemies in any given campaign - they should encounter enough that the average damage of fire is equal to the average damage of other elemental spells of the same level. Sure, it means that they are probably looking at something like 20% immune and 25% resistant and I agree that when they pick fire they are signing up to this. I don't think it is fair to have them face 45% immune enemies and 45% resistant enemies; I don't think that is what they signed up for.

If you are facing a lot of magic resistant enemies then I think there are also other concepts that die... hard. It isn't just about what a class can do, but about what a player selects that class to do. If you want to play a ranger because you want their archery abilities but most things are immune to piecing damage it doesn't really help to say that rangers can also use slashing melee weapons (not saying you are saying this, just generally expanding on the point).

I think if an adventure rules out a whole range of characters the players need to know about it up front, or even better, the players say roughly what they want to play and their DM selects/builds a campaign appropriate and balanced for that set of characters. Decent seems cool; I think it has a lot going for it but a whole campaign based on it raises some problems for some parties.

[micahaphone]

Reminds me of a story of a frustrated sorcerer I read somewhere. I think they were playing Princes of the Apocalypse or something similar, and the final arc of their level 1-15 campaign was nothing but fire immune enemies, so he was stuck mostly casting twinned haste and using a few lower level spells. Everyone else in the party had a thrilling climax and he felt like an npc for the last push.

[Bel-Torac]

DIA has lots of fiends and some undead. Humanoids in the beginning. I would pick attacks that deal magical weapon damage, force, and radiant. Necrotic would work too for the most part. I would avoid fire, cold, and lightning. Being flexible with your damage type helps.

Most enemies are immune to charm so most charm crowd control spells won't work. If you play a bard, your main weapon is down and you'll have to find other ways to be useful.

Clerics and paladins are good, classes that can crowd control without charm would help, someone that can investigate and read infernal is great (if your dm makes contracts), land vehicle proficiency, magical damage other than fire, cold, or lighting, and ranged attacks since you will be in a desert like environment most of the time.

[Sception]

Oathbreaker paladin is the best choice, obviously.

[Willie the Duck]

DIA has lots of fiends and some undead. Humanoids in the beginning. I would pick attacks that deal magical weapon damage, force, and radiant. Necrotic would work too for the most part. I would avoid fire, cold, and lightning. Being flexible with your damage type helps.

Can you speak in general terms about focus on weapon types? Same 'non-spoiler, but call out things that you shouldn't build around' that we did with this 'don't rely on fire direct-damage' thing. Stuff like whether a character that dumps Str and expects to use ranged/finesse weapons just isn't going to find any magic weapons to use, or weapon specific feats like PAM, XBE, GWM, or Shield Master being good or bad ideas.
Thanks!

[Theaitetos]

Stuff like whether a character that dumps Str and expects to use ranged/finesse weapons just isn't going to find any magic weapons to use, or weapon specific feats like PAM, XBE, GWM, or Shield Master being good or bad ideas.
Thanks!

Well, unless you play Adventurer's League, your DM decides what kinds of items you find. I doubt any good DM would make someone be useless just because the book doesn't provide any magic weapon drops.

[jaappleton]

Well, unless you play Adventurer's League, your DM decides what kinds of items you find. I doubt any good DM would make someone be useless just because the book doesn't provide any magic weapon drops.

There’s almost no magic items in Avernus itself.

It’s fairly heavily implied that if the party wants magic items, they made deals with Devils for them.

[HolyDraconus]

There’s almost no magic items in Avernus itself.

It’s fairly heavily implied that if the party wants magic items, they made deals with Devils for them.

Artificer. The answer is Artificer. Party wants magic items, but don't want to make a deal? Bring an Artificer. Party wants a super hell machine? Bring an Artificer. Party wants a healer that doesn't have the baggage of a deity in hell? Artificer. Party wants the cool pet of a Ranger but without the downside of being bad? Bring an Artificer.


Like, I'm fairly certain they mentioned in a vid that Artificer was practically tailor made for this Adventure.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, unless you play Adventurer's League, your DM decides what kinds of items you find. I doubt any good DM would make someone be useless just because the book doesn't provide any magic weapon drops.

A good DM will definitely make it such that there is a way to salvage the situation, but that may well include long circuitous activities, or relying on the casters using spells like magic weapon or the like. FWIW, on boards like this I've often seen sentiments along the lines of 'if you pick up PAM or XBE, well then a good DM has to turn some of the magic weapons you find into halberds and hand crossbows to facilitate your build' that I have almost never seen outside of boards like this. The standard thinking I have heard is that if you actively choose a powerful-but-niche ability, it's on you if it is hard to capitalize upon. Regardless, as already discussed, there are going to be simply-bad-builds in the forms of fire mages and the like.


There’s almost no magic items in Avernus itself.

It’s fairly heavily implied that if the party wants magic items, they made deals with Devils for them.

Ah. Well, I guess that doesn't penalize Dex vs. Str combatants or PAM/XBE, but it does make a strong incentive for Forge Clerics (/Forge Cleric dips), Hexblades, Artificers, and Shillelagh based ranger/monk/tomelocks/etc.

[Wraith]

While I haven't tested it, my experience with Descent Into Avernus suggests that Psychic Warrior and the Arcane Tradition: Psychic Soul, from the appropriate UA (https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-PsychicSoulPsionics.pdf), would fare pretty well.

Lots of things down there have plenty of elemental resistance, but nothing that I recall has anything that lets them deal, or protect themselves from, Psychic damage. Then again, we haven't fought any of the REALLY big and scary things yet so I might turn out to be wrong, but so far it seems like it would be fine! :smalltongue:

Personally, I'm having a great time as a Druid/Circle of the Moon. While I'm not getting particularly impressive mileage out of my offensive/elemental spells, I'm similarly finding that there isn't much that causes many problems for a stoneskinned, elementally resistant/immune, HP regenerating Triceratops. :smallbiggrin:

[jaappleton]

The more I read it, the more I suggest UA College of Eloquence.

1. None of its abilities rely on you being able to Charm, unlike Lore's Cutting Words.

2. Spend an Inspiration Die to grand yourself Advantage on Charisma checks for 10 minutes. Not bad at all, especially during.... Contract negotiations, if you catch my drift.

3. Getting to cast Calm Emotions unfortunately only works on Humanoids, but in the start of the adventure you're in Baldur's Gate, and there are some Humanoids in Avernus proper. Including one infamous Dragonborn Paladin you may have to negotiate with...

4. Undeniable Logic is, undeniably, absolutely amazing. As a bonus action, spend an inspiration dice to grant an ally Advantage on their next save* or force an enemy to make an Int save (INT! Most enemies SUCK against those!) or have Disadvantage on their next save. So use your Bonus Action and then Hold Monster...?
*It has been confirmed that an unconscious enemy can still hear you, as ruled by Jeremy Crawford during Dragon Talk. Source: Me, I asked the question.

5. At level 14, Infectious Inspiration lets you spread your Inspiration dice around to damn near everyone. This is especially important as Avernus finishes up between levels 13-15, so to be able to actually get your Capstone ability in a published adventure? This actually plays a factor, which for a published adventure is pretty rare.

That's just what Eloquence gives you, not to mention as a Bard you get skills out the wazoo, a solid spell list, magical secrets, heck you even get Slow and Tenser's Transformation now thanks to the Variant Class Feature UA if you play with that.