Sleep at Higher Levels

[Afgncaap5]

I've heard it said before that Sleep isn't a great option at higher levels after a sharp drop off of being seemingly overpowered early on. Let's say a hypothetical friend of mine named... Nafgncaap5, let's say... wanted to use Sleep at higher levels in spite of this glaring problem. Any advice for ol' Naffy when I-he, when he runs off on this fool's errand?

Even in a sixth level spell slot it's only affecting an average of 67-68 points of damage, a total that won't affect even some low-level heavy hitters, and the undead or things immune to charm effects won't be affected by this. Pretty hefty downside. On the other hand, though, there's no save to worry about... effect just sorta happens. That's somethin', at least.

Also, if this was for a multiclass character who was primarily focused on Druidic magic, would that change anything? I know, I know, Nafgncaap5 is clearly going mad over here.

[Sigreid]

Yep, cast it after a few rounds of the party beating the opposition like a drum to get their hp down.

[Willie the Duck]

If you want to use the actual spell, it pretty much will have to be the last blow before taking something down. A group of mid-level opponents who just got fireballed to each having 5-10 hp left will fall to a Sleep spell the same way as low-level opponents who didn't get fireballed. Might be better to find some higher level similar spells (Hypnotic Pattern?) and ask if they can be re-fluffed. Or work with the DM to create a Power Word, Sleep spell, or similar.

[Nhorianscum]

I've heard it said before that Sleep isn't a great option at higher levels after a sharp drop off of being seemingly overpowered early on. Let's say a hypothetical friend of mine named... Nafgncaap5, let's say... wanted to use Sleep at higher levels in spite of this glaring problem. Any advice for ol' Naffy when I-he, when he runs off on this fool's errand?

Even in a sixth level spell slot it's only affecting an average of 67-68 points of damage, a total that won't affect even some low-level heavy hitters, and the undead or things immune to charm effects won't be affected by this. Pretty hefty downside. On the other hand, though, there's no save to worry about... effect just sorta happens. That's somethin', at least.

Also, if this was for a multiclass character who was primarily focused on Druidic magic, would that change anything? I know, I know, Nafgncaap5 is clearly going mad over here.

Talk your GM into allowing the reading of abberent dragonmark to stack HD.

Take sleep as an abberent spell.

Spam sleep at 9th level.

????

Profit.

It's a ton of recoil damage and it burns your HD like mad but it's pretty much the only way to make sleep viable.

[Afgncaap5]

If you want to use the actual spell,

Nafgncaap5. Not me. Nafgncaap5 wants to use the spell. Clearly.


it pretty much will have to be the last blow before taking something down. A group of mid-level opponents who just got fireballed to each having 5-10 hp left will fall to a Sleep spell the same way as low-level opponents who didn't get fireballed. Might be better to find some higher level similar spells (Hypnotic Pattern?) and ask if they can be re-fluffed. Or work with the DM to create a Power Word, Sleep spell, or similar.

Aye. I've been coming up blank for ways to actually modify the amount of dice it affects, so the plan I'll be recommending to my good and very real friend for his character is to invest in perception, intuition, maybe medicine, and try to get a good sense for when enemies are on their last legs.


Talk your GM into allowing the reading of abberent dragonmark to stack HD.

Take sleep as an abberent spell.

Spam sleep at 9th level.

????

Profit.

It's a ton of recoil damage and it burns your HD like mad but it's pretty much the only way to make sleep viable.

That'd be pretty counter to my... I mean, to Nafgncaap5's character concept. Character's all about rest and recuperation, and things like recoil damage are pretty philosophically against the build. Fun thought, but Naffy'll steer clear for now, I think.

I do appreciate the Eberron options, though. The character's a halfling with the mark of hospitality, liberally rebranded as being able to open a gateway to a tropical island of hammocks, refreshing beverages, and relaxing music.

[Fable Wright]

Have you considered using Eyeblight to apply sleep instead? With Heighten or Portent, you could make it pretty reliable barring LR.

Just remember the small area, and that it takes a 7th level Sleep to take out a CR 3 Green Hag or Volo's Guide Archer if they're not on their last legs.

[Nhorianscum]

Nafgncaap5. Not me. Nafgncaap5 wants to use the spell. Clearly.



Aye. I've been coming up blank for ways to actually modify the amount of dice it affects, so the plan I'll be recommending to my good and very real friend for his character is to invest in perception, intuition, maybe medicine, and try to get a good sense for when enemies are on their last legs.



That'd be pretty counter to my... I mean, to Nafgncaap5's character concept. Character's all about rest and recuperation, and things like recoil damage are pretty philosophically against the build. Fun thought, but Naffy'll steer clear for now, I think.

I do appreciate the Eberron options, though. The character's a halfling with the mark of hospitality, liberally rebranded as being able to open a gateway to a tropical island of hammocks, refreshing beverages, and relaxing music.

Honestly? Refluff other spells.

Or buy wands of sleep because you're in Ebberon and those can exist for cheap 7th level sleep 1/2 days per wand. Have fun.

[Chronos]

The problem with using Sleep as a finisher on tough opponents is that it requires a sense of just how beat down the opponent is. If you misjudge and use it on an enemy that has just slightly more HP than Sleep rolls, then it does absolutely nothing. By contrast, if you had used a damaging spell in that same situation, even if it's not quite enough, it'll still bring the enemy closer to being finished.

[stoutstien]

Sleep stays relevant because lower cr NPCs also stay relevant.

[Morty]

Sleep being a potential trump card on lower levels and sharply dropping off in utility later is a sort of tradition by now.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Sleep stays relevant because lower cr NPCs also stay relevant.

Yes, but there are often better ways of dealing with groups of lower CR enemies, such as damage-dealing AoEs. Consider the following:

1) A group of 6-8 Kobolds (CR 1/8) threatens your 1st-level party, and you catch most/all of them in a 20' radius, so you lay a 1st level Sleep on 'em. On average, you knock out four or five, so in this context it's very effective. To cast Burning Hands, by contrast, you'd have to get up close, and the radius isn't as good, but to be fair any that you get are probably torched, even if they save.

2) A group of 6-8 Goblins (CR 1/4) threatens your 3rd-level party, you catch most/all blah blah blah, 2nd level Sleep 'em. On average, you knock out four or five, so again very effective. If you Shatter them, you'll probably hit fewer, but any that fail are probably dead, and possibly even those that succeed.

3) A group of 6-8 Hobgoblins (CR 1/2) threatens your 5th-level party, you 3rd level Sleep them. Average is down to just under four tagged, but still effective. But had you lobbed a Fireball, chances are you'd kill all the ones you caught in the AoE. And if you wanted something nonlethal, there's Hypnotic Pattern.

4) A group of 6-8 Bugbears (CR 1) threatens your 7th-level party, you 4th level Sleep 'em. Average is now just under two, so there's a greater than 50% chance that you only tag one, and the maximum you can get is three. Again, you're better off with a Fireball here, since even if you only kill one, at least there'll be others that're damaged.

5) A group of 6-8 Azer (CR 2) threatens your 9th-level party, you 5th level Sleep 'em. Average is just above one, and there's a decent probability that your spell just does nothing. To be fair, they're immune to fire, so Fireballing the Azer won't work, but that's a quirk of this particular choice, and also a Cone of Cold will (on average) knock any who fail their saves from full to a mere three hit points.

From (5) forward, Sleep is no longer an effective AoE by any measure, unless you're fighting hordes of opponents that your friends can probably one-shot with each of their 2+ weapon attacks per round. And at that point the enemy horde isn't so much a "threat" as it is a "temporary nuisance." And these examples aren't even the most robust in terms of hit points. The utility falls much faster if you're looking at Guards instead of Kobolds, Ogres instead of Azer, etc. And that's not even counting all the types of enemies that are immune.

tl; dr Sleep is a good spell, but not when you're trying to kill/incapacitate a large number of threatening enemies at Tier 2 and onwards.

EDIT: It is, however, great for non-lethal situations at higher levels as well as lower. It works just as well for subduing innocent Commoners who you absolutely don't want to harm at higher levels as it does at lower. Better, if you're still upcasting.

[Kane0]

Have you considered using Eyebite to apply sleep instead? With Heighten or Portent, you could make it pretty reliable barring LR.
Seems like a good option actually.

[stoutstien]

I've heard it said before that Sleep isn't a great option at higher levels after a sharp drop off of being seemingly overpowered early on. Let's say a hypothetical friend of mine named... Nafgncaap5, let's say... wanted to use Sleep at higher levels in spite of this glaring problem. Any advice for ol' Naffy when I-he, when he runs off on this fool's errand?

Even in a sixth level spell slot it's only affecting an average of 67-68 points of damage, a total that won't affect even some low-level heavy hitters, and the undead or things immune to charm effects won't be affected by this. Pretty hefty downside. On the other hand, though, there's no save to worry about... effect just sorta happens. That's somethin', at least.

Also, if this was for a multiclass character who was primarily focused on Druidic magic, would that change anything? I know, I know, Nafgncaap5 is clearly going mad over here.

I should point out undead don't have a blanket immunity to sleep. Skeletons, zombies, shadows, ghouls(I thought they where but nope), and so on

Upper cr we got more charm immunity but still some valid targets. Nightwalkers getting sleeped would be an interesting turn.

Mounts tend to have lower total hp and as others have said it's nice to have non-lethal options in the pocket.

[Afgncaap5]

Have you

Not me. Nafgncaap5.


considered using Eyeblight to apply sleep instead? With Heighten or Portent, you could make it pretty reliable barring LR.

Just remember the small area, and that it takes a 7th level Sleep to take out a CR 3 Green Hag or Volo's Guide Archer if they're not on their last legs.

Nafgncaap5 isn't a high enough level sorcerer for Eyebite. Most of the levels are Druid of the Dream Circle, but there's one single level of Sorcerer to get Sleep. Access to Sleep is just a kind of cherry on top of the dream/rest/recuperation "deal".

(Edit: Eyebite's also sort of a curse/black magic/sinister effect. This guy's sleepiness is more of a gift. I could reflavor it, but I try not to unless there aren't any other convenient methods.)


Or buy wands of sleep because you're in Ebberon and those can exist for cheap 7th level sleep 1/2 days per wand. Have fun.

Not in Eberron, unfortunately. The group I'm in has been in a Ravnica kick since it came out and I can't get them to try a different setting much as I wanna play in Greyhawk or Eberron.

[Nhorianscum]

Not me. Nafgncaap5.



Nafgncaap5 isn't a high enough level sorcerer for Eyebite. Most of the levels are Druid of the Dream Circle, but there's one single level of Sorcerer to get Sleep. Access to Sleep is just a kind of cherry on top of the dream/rest/recuperation "deal".

(Edit: Eyebite's also sort of a curse/black magic/sinister effect. This guy's sleepiness is more of a gift. I could reflavor it, but I try not to unless there aren't any other convenient methods.)



Not in Eberron, unfortunately. The group I'm in has been in a Ravnica kick since it came out and I can't get them to try a different setting much as I wanna play in Greyhawk or Eberron.

Oh, buy them wands for sure then. Ravnica has built in magic marts for this sillyness.

[NNescio]

I should point out undead don't have a blanket immunity to sleep. Skeletons, zombies, shadows, ghouls(I thought they where but nope), and so on

Upper cr we got more charm immunity but still some valid targets. Nightwalkers getting sleeped would be an interesting turn.

Mounts tend to have lower total hp and as others have said it's nice to have non-lethal options in the pocket.

Drop a Hypnotic Pattern then.

Edit:

Also..


Undead and creatures immune to being charmed aren't affected by this spell.

Which is intended to mean that undead have flat immunity against Sleep. I mean, sure, "and" is ambiguous here, but if that was what they meant they might as well just drop "undead and go with "creatures immune to being charmed", because undead are also creatures.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Drop a Hypnotic Pattern then.

And the fluff is easy, they are day dreaming.

[Contrast]

One of the main problems with upcasting Sleep in the middle of combat is that you kind of need to do some damage on the person first as the game progresses.

Which means the PCs are probably standing around and Sleep is not party safe (well, unless you're all elves anyway). So you'd also need to make sure you're not accidentally going to wipe out one of the PCs because they had less HP left than the thing you're trying to target.

[Bjarkmundur]

Sources:
Sleep Spell (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Sleep#content)
Anydice (https://anydice.com/)
Monster Stat Calculator (http://blogofholding.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bc1.png)
Encounter Size by Level (https://donjon.bin.sh/5e/calc/enc_size.html)

Design Goal:
Rebalance the scaling of Sleep to have it less effective at level 1, where it is regarded as too strong, and scale well between levels 3-7, where the player will spend most of his time.

Initial Thoughts:
After setting up some rudimentary tables in excel I've noticed how extremely bad Sleep is at level 7, needing an additional 11 average points to affect a CR 3 monster.
I like how effective the spell is at PC level 3. It lines up nicely to be able to down a single CR 1 creature, or roughly 50% of a full combat encounter. I'll use that level as an anchor for fixing the scaling in both directions.

Suggested Solution:
By altering the scaling you can make sure that for each spell level your target CR increases linearly.
New Base: 3d12
New Upcast: +2d12



Analysis:
Level 1 - 19HP of Sleep.
One CR 1/4 creature
Two CR 1/8 creatures
Six 1/8 creatures

-This seems perfect, equating to roughly 25-50% of an encounter


Level 3 - 32HP of Sleep
One CR 1 creature
Two CR 1/4 creatures
Three CR 1/8 creatures.

-This is perfect, equating to roughly 50% of an encounter


Level 5 - 45 HP of Sleep
Single CR 2 creature
Three CR 1/4 creatures
Five CR 1/8 creatures

-This is perfect, equating to roughly 50% of an encounter


Level 7 -58HP of Sleep
Single CR 3 creature
Two CR 1 creatures
Four CR 1/4 creatures.

-This is almost perfect, equating to roughly 50% of an encounter. We are starting to fall off now, we are 2 points away from our target number.


Level 9 - 71HP of Sleep
Single CR 4 creature
Two CR 1 creatures
Three CR 1/4 creatures

-This is almost perfect, equating to roughly 50% of an encounter. We are 4 points away from our target number.

Conclusion
Sleep is now for more reasonable at level 1 and scales much better. Note that we used to fall of by 17 points at level 9, where we are now only behind by 4 points. That's a huge improvement! It is no longer a complete roll over at the first two levels, and remains relative throughout the game. Note that it is designed to be good against easier encounters with few creatures. It's not supposed to be effective against bosses and large armies, but rather a disabling tool against patrols, random encounters and guard-type creatures you don't want alerting their boss. Sleep is a tool for covert operations, not giant battles. This fix ensures it scales correctly, and its utility is constant between levels.

[Kane0]

Ooh, do Color spray while you’re at it

[Bjarkmundur]

Ooh, do Color spray while you’re at it

Base: 5d12
Upcast: +2d12

It uses exactly the same principles but the target CR is one higher due to the short duration.

[loki_ragnarock]

That'd be pretty counter to my... I mean, to Nafgncaap5's character concept. Character's all about rest and recuperation, and things like recoil damage are pretty philosophically against the build. Fun thought, but Naffy'll steer clear for now, I think.

I do appreciate the Eberron options, though. The character's a halfling with the mark of hospitality, liberally rebranded as being able to open a gateway to a tropical island of hammocks, refreshing beverages, and relaxing music.

I don't know, maybe as a flirtation with the dark side Naffy"ll add the material component of an energy drink to justify the recoil damage.

Red Bull gives you wings, and such.

[stoutstien]

Drop a Hypnotic Pattern then.

Edit:

Also..



Which is intended to mean that undead have flat immunity against Sleep. I mean, sure, "and" is ambiguous here, but if that was what they meant they might as well just drop "undead and go with "creatures immune to being charmed", because undead are also creatures.

I was thinking of fear. Firmly put my foot in my mouth

[Vogie]

Basically, an upcasted sleep is the first Banish or "Power Word" spell you have access to. Once you think about the spell in that manner, your options will expand.

There are plenty of times where a party can:

Take out all of the guards/kobolds/goblins that would be a mini-encounter to drain resources
Take out a bunch of the Thugs/wolves your BBEG calls in to ambush you from behind.
Freeze the fight once you've got your boss-sized target to half health, for something like a clutch revivify, or just to GTFO because it's going poorly
Run out the clock on a certain effect that lasts 1 minute, like Rage or the like.

[NNescio]

Basically, an upcasted sleep is the first Banish or "Power Word" spell you have access to. Once you think about the spell in that manner, your options will expand.

There are plenty of times where a party can:

Take out all of the guards/kobolds/goblins that would be a mini-encounter to drain resources

Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Sleet Storm, Web, or even Shatter.



Take out a bunch of the Thugs/wolves your BBEG calls in to ambush you from behind.
See above.



Freeze the fight once you've got your boss-sized target to half health, for something like a clutch revivify, or just to GTFO because it's going poorly
Just use actual Banishment.

Or a same-level damage spell, if you think the boss has a low enough HP to be potentially affected by an upcasted Sleep.

Or a Charm CC effect, as bosses not immune to Sleep are usually also not immune to Charm (and its riders).




Run out the clock on a certain effect that lasts 1 minute, like Rage or the like.


See above.

[Vogie]

Here are alternatives that require saving throws

Great thanks, no one thought of those ever. You know what Sleep doesn't have? Saving throws. Like the Power Word spells referenced in my post. And, unlike the myriad of 2nd and higher level spells, Sleep can be picked up at level 1, and can do all of the things you just listed, save the ones that just deal damage. Sure, you can focus on limitations of various saving throws, which is more "normal", as your snoozefest of options are.

Like Bjarkmundur's post references, you can metagame-guess the the charm-ability and approximate hit points by CR level of your targets in the same manner that you would the saving throws of your targets. A 3rd level Sleep is 9d8, which averages to around 40 hp. 4th level sleep is approx 50 hp.

On top of all of that, the effect is silent. Shatter is loud, Fireball is literally an explosion.

[NNescio]

Great thanks, no one thought of those ever. You know what Sleep doesn't have? Saving throws.

You know what Sleep has? Variable 'virtual' damage. And has no effect if you don't roll high enough, or if the targets have too much HP, or if there are too many chaff dividing up the HP. (unlike actual AoEs that deals more damage/disables more creatures the more targets you include in the AoE)

It ain't an auto success. It's not frickin' "automatically deals average 'virtual' damage". In many cases it's even riskier than relying on a failed save. Especially if you are trying to gauge how damaged a high-HP target is.

And the average 'virtual' damage still sucks for (PC level > 5) AoE purposes.



Like the Power Word spells referenced in my post. And, unlike the myriad of 2nd and higher level spells, Sleep can be picked up at level 1, and can do all of the things you just listed, save the ones that just deal damage.

You pick Sleep at Level 1 and then swap it out at higher levels. Or don't care about swapping if you're a Wizard (you get lots of effective spell 'known' unlike the other arcanists), and just pick an actual CC option.


Sure, you can focus on limitations of various saving throws, which is more "normal", as your snoozefest of options are.

Those snoozefests are far more reliable than upcasted Sleep. Especially the ones with Save-for-Half or some kind of terrain altering effect that stays there no matter the target saves or not. That's why everybody and their mother recommends them across all those many different class and spell guides. (And Sleep gets recommended as a low-level killer but then gets pushed as the "swap this out" option as the caster levels. )



Like Bjarkmundur's post references, you can metagame-guess the the charm-ability and approximate hit points by CR level of your targets in the same manner that you would the saving throws of your targets.

Those are friggin' average HP. Useful for balancing purposes (like trying to rejigger spell damage), but specific monsters have different HP. And you suggested boss monsters. Trying to metagame boss HP is a less than reliable option, and even if you get it right your Sleep still deals variable 'virtual' damage (that goes away when the target wakes up and doesn't stack with actual damage), so it ain't exactly reliable either. Might as well use a save. And metagaming weak saves is far more reliable and justifiable in-game (and far, far easier to remember than specific CR and HP values).



Like Bjarkmundur's post references, you can metagame-guess the the charm-ability and approximate hit points by CR level of your targets in the same manner that you would the saving throws of your targets. A 3rd level Sleep is 9d8, which averages to around 40 hp. 4th level sleep is approx 50 hp.

Yes, about 50/50 chance to put to Sleep a single target that you think has 40 HP (or 50) remaining. I take my chances with Save or Sucks. Especially if it has partial effect on a save, or just flat out BFC (denying vision also counts), save or no. Or just Fireball for guaranteed actual* damage even against a single target, if I'm that desperate.

(So it 'stacks' with party members' attacks/damage spells on following turns.)

As for packs of lower CR enemies? Just lob Fireball or some AoE save or suck/lose. SLOTHRPG95 has already provided an excellent analysis.



On top of all of that, the effect is silent. Shatter is loud, Fireball is literally an explosion.
Use frickin' Hypnotic Pattern then. It's what the spell is designed for — basically an improved version of Sleep.

[Bjarkmundur]

I'm very confused about the turn this thread has gone?

I thought we were banding together to help Afgna- I mean Nafgncaap5 to get the most enjoyment out of his character by proposing a small tweak to an existing mechanic that his DM is likely to allow? And he is obviously invested in the theme of his druidic character, which is something I love seeing in my players. A player that is really into a specific (reasonable) theme and crosses mountains in order to bring his fantasy to life before the eyes of the other players, now that's cool!

For a fey-themed or a peace-themed druid, a good sleep spell has a TON of flavor. You also have to remember that Afgn.. I mean, Nafgncaap5 is not trying to meta game. This means he is even more likely to use sleep when it is most appropriate, which incidentally is the times where the DM is most likely to rule in his favor.

You see a guard and devise a plan to get around him which involves casting sleep. I as a DM haven't told you what his CR is. But I know this is a good use of the spell, much better than trying to instakill some boss. So I'm likely to fudge the numbers in your favor, just pick a CR that allow you to cast sleep without a hazzle.

Remember that sleep doesn't even have to be cast at max level, which is why it is so effective against tiny enemies. You know how DMs sometimes divide encounters up into waves of enemies? Sleep is a tool for players to do the same. Sleep on the minions, focus the boss, then come back to the minions later. It's a unique and cool tool, and in this case it is very thematic.

He can't use many of the spells you are suggesting, such as Hypnotic Pattern, since he is a druid.