Top Spells Needing Rework

[Bjarkmundur]

I've been thinking about spells a lot today, and I'm curious.

What are, in your honest opinion, the top 3 spells that you would love to see get a rewrite?
Bonus point if you suggest spells that have not already been suggested!

Here are mine


SCAG Weapon-Cantrips
Divine Favor
Witch Bolt


Why did you choose the spells you chose? Do you think they're unbalanced? Do you feel like they don't deliver on their promise? Do you simply wish to see the spell taken in another direction?

A couple of lines about what displeases you about each spell is well appreciated, but let's not go on a rant. We can do all that later ;)



Are incompatible with the Attack Action and Extra Attack.
Doesn't scale.
Doesn't deliver on the fantasy very well.




Booming Blade
Find Traps
True Strike
Witch Bolt
Healing Spirit
Prayer of Healing
Greenflame Blade
Friends
Melf's Acid Arrow
Chaos Bolt
Witch Bolt
Forcecage
Feign Death
Tenser's Transformation
Phantasmal Killer
Crown of Madness
Chaos Bolt
Immolation
Fireball
True Strike
Polymorph
Lightning Arrow
Conjure Barrage
Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
Ice Storm
Hex
Hunter's Mark
Summoning Spells
Hunger of Hadar
Smite Spells
Non-Ritual Ritual Spells

[stoutstien]

I've been thinking about spells a lot today, and I'm curious.

What are, in your honest opinion, the top 3 spells that you would love to see get a rewrite?
Bonus point if you suggest spells that have not already been suggested!

Here are mine


SCAG Weapon-Cantrips
Divine Favor
Witch Bolt


Why did you choose the spells you chose? Do you think they're unbalanced? Do you feel like they don't deliver on their promise? Do you simply wish to see the spell taken in another direction?

A couple of lines about what displeases you about each spell is well appreciated, but let's not go on a rant. We can do all that later ;)



Are incompatible with the Attack Action and Extra Attack.
Doesn't scale.
Doesn't deliver on the fantasy very well.


Scag cantrips- add a save for secondary effects.

Divine favor. Make it scale an extra die every other lv up to 5th lv slot would be interesting. Could do the same for crusader Mantle.

Witch bolt- allow to pick a new/re-target as long as you maintain concentration. Still bad but least it would have some role like a weaker call lighting.

[Bjarkmundur]

Scag cantrips- add a save for secondary effects.

We'll go over all that later. What are your least-favorite spells of 5e?
And I don't think you need to quote my entire post when you're the first one to answer xD

[stoutstien]

We'll go over all that later. What are your least-favorite spells of 5e?
For the category of poorly executed spell we have:
Booming blade ☺️.

I have a long list of spells I fell are bad/off/poorly worded but BB is the worse.

[Dork_Forge]

I've been thinking about spells a lot today, and I'm curious.

What are, in your honest opinion, the top 3 spells that you would love to see get a rewrite?
Bonus point if you suggest spells that have not already been suggested!

Here are mine


SCAG Weapon-Cantrips
Divine Favor
Witch Bolt


Why did you choose the spells you chose? Do you think they're unbalanced? Do you feel like they don't deliver on their promise? Do you simply wish to see the spell taken in another direction?

A couple of lines about what displeases you about each spell is well appreciated, but let's not go on a rant. We can do all that later ;)



Are incompatible with the Attack Action and Extra Attack.
Doesn't scale.
Doesn't deliver on the fantasy very well.


The purpose of the SCAGtrips are to replace Extra Attack and the attack action though, what would you rather instead? More like a bonus action to infuse weapon for more damage on one hit?

[Nhorianscum]

Find Traps
Find Traps
Find Traps

It doesn't work.

[stoutstien]

Find Traps
Find Traps
Find Traps

It doesn't work.

Find traps is wonky because traps are poorly done in 5e. I think they included it just for nostalgia.

[PhoenixPhyre]

True Strike: <Admiral_Ackbar.gif>

Witch Bolt: always disappointing

Are the two that come to mind immediately, although find traps is also pretty bad.

[bloodshed343]

The purpose of the SCAGtrips are to replace Extra Attack and the attack action though, what would you rather instead? More like a bonus action to infuse weapon for more damage on one hit?

And yet they gave the Bladesinger, the archetype for which the cantrips were created, the extra attack feature and not something like the Eldritch Knight's 7th level feature.

I think everyone was hoping for something like Shillelagh, but for a wizard with martial weapons.

[Frozenstep]

Healing spirit: An interesting in-combat healing spell, but then it just get used out of combat. If you allow conga-line shenanigans, it's insane. Would like to see more reason for it to be used in combat, and wording that discourages conga lining.

Prayer of healing: You basically have to take a small short rest for this to work, and you know how people respond to needing a short rest. Thing is, it really only shows it's raw healing power over something like healing spirit if everyone is hurt. A little bit of flexibility would be nice, like being a concentration spell that lets you heal 2d8+mod over the course of a minute to one player, useable x times in the 10 minute duration.

Goodberry: Lol exploration and survival

[JNAProductions]

Funny you should mention Healing Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?596838-Healing-Spirit-Revised)...

[47Ace]

I would say the two SCAGtrips witch I think would be better without the extra damage but even they they still turn the eldritch knights 7th level ribbon into a damage buff.
For the third Wish as no cost any spell once a day is just poorly though out. Or alternatively simulacrum.

[KorvinStarmast]

What are, in your honest opinion, the top 3 spells that you would love to see get a rewrite?

True Strike
Prayer of Healing
Friends



Needs to be useful. Action, gives a +1d4 for one attack with a melee weapon for an ally (like a limited bless) (no range attack, not spell attacks).
Needs to last 1 minute so that it and that new druid spell (Healing spirit) are more similar
Get rid of the "I hate you" effect when it wears off. Defeats the purpose of the spell (same issue goes with Charm person)

Pet Peeve: go back to the original PHB True Polymorph. After an hour, it is permanent. Not "until dispelled". Or, for every week (or pick a time interval) spent in the form after permanent, the DC to dispell goes up by one.

[nickl_2000]

Find Traps
Find Traps
Find Traps

It doesn't work.

Ironically this is a trap option :smallcool:

[Bjarkmundur]

I'll throw a couple of more in

1. Cure Wound + Lesser Restoration
2. Ceremony
3. All the spells that sound like a ritual, act like a ritual, but aren't rituals.

1. Should be balanced either as an in-combat or OOC option, not this in-between.
2. This spell could've been so much more, and so thematic, but it isn't.
3. Just make it a ritual >.<

[stoutstien]

I'll throw a couple of more in

1. Cure Wound + Lesser Restoration
2. Ceremony

1. Should be balanced either as an in-combar ot OOC option, not this in-between
2. This spell could've been so much more, and so thematic, but it isn't.

Becoming a holy water factory has its moments.

Cure wounds works great with maximize healing the some subclasses get.

What's up with lesser restore?

[Sahe]

Melf's Acid Arrow...it should either deal more damage or have another effect. I love the idea of it, but as is, it's just not good.

Chaos Bolt. I want more spells like it and I want it to scale better...or as a Cantrip. Whatever, I like these kinda spells and I want more.

[Bjarkmundur]

What's up with lesser restore?

There's nothing inherently WRONG with these spells. I would just love to see how they would look like after a rewrite :D . I just feel like they could be more thematic, mostly.

[Eldariel]

Cure Wounds: This spell is just bad at what it's supposed to do. The action cost, the range and the amount of healing combined just doesn't add up compared to alternatives.


Chaos Bolt: So Sorcerer's only unique spell is this...thing? Yeah...I don't think I need to even state its problems, they are too numerous to count. Put short, it just sucks and you'll never learn it and it being a Sorcerer-only option is almost insulting (Sorcs getting 15 spells overall are not learning it, ever). Chromatic Orb exists and isn't Sorc-only.


Immolation: Honestly, any number of XGtE blasting effects could go here but this is just so bad. Single target damage plus concentration for extra and a couple of spell levels over Fireball, which has a massive AOE and doesn't force you to waste your concentration on a terrible effect? Yeah, I know which one I'm picking here...

[Laserlight]

Crown of Madness. At first it looks so good, but then it turns out to be so useless.

[nickl_2000]

There's nothing inherently WRONG with these spells. I would just love to see how they would look like after a rewrite :D . I just feel like they could be more thematic, mostly.

Funny, I've cast it in combat many times. There is nothing worse than your fighter who drops massive damage each turn attacking with disadvantage all the time

[Kane0]

Okay, going for the not-mentioned bonus points!

1: Feign Death
2: Tenser's Transformation
3: Phantasmal Killer
Flame Blade, Ray of Enfeeblement, Mordenkainen's Sword, Vampiric Touch, Elemental Bane, somebody stop me!

[Misterwhisper]

Force Cage.

No save, no concentration, no chance to get out just game over unless you are a full caster with certain spells.

[Phhase]

There's no reason for Witch Bolt to consume both your Action and your Concentration in order to be worth anything (Except in the very narrow case of destroying an inanimate object or structure).

Yeah, SCAG cantrips. Booming Blade does literally nothing at base if your enemy doesn't move, and why would it if it has even an inkling of what the spell does?

[Atranen]

Maybe a controversial opinion, but Fireball. It is more powerful than "expected" for its spell level (a deliberate choice because it is 'iconic') and so crowds out other blasting options and makes optimized blasters more one-dimensional.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Mordenkainen's Sword

(Don't) Find Traps

Dust Devil

[Talsin]

Gripes on other spells not mentioned...


Shape Water - it's unclear as to if it can cause a 5-ft cube to suddenly operate in under-water rules (SUPERtanking, or SUPER debuff)

Wall of Light - Either shoot lasers as a bonus action, or shoot lasers without decreasing the wall! Sheesh!

Daylight - IT'S JUST UPCAST LIGHTING, WHAT THE STUFF MAN?

Bonus round: Arcane archer shots, I think they should do more - Battle master is better with a bow and Eldritch Knight is better with spells (and arguably a bow!).

[Misterwhisper]

Maybe a controversial opinion, but Fireball. It is more powerful than "expected" for its spell level (a deliberate choice because it is 'iconic') and so crowds out other blasting options and makes optimized blasters more one-dimensional.

Considering how often fire has resistance compared like thunder or whatever, seems ok.

Poison needs some love.

[Tharkun]

Find traps is wonky because traps are poorly done in 5e. I think they included it just for nostalgia.
Find Traps is bad because the wording on the spell means it doesn't do what it says on the tin. It is a bad spell.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

Enthrall is, in my opinion the worst spell in the game. It accomplishes basically nothing, and what it does accomplish you could very easily do in a mundane way without burning a spell slot, and without granting a wisdom save.

[stoutstien]

Find Traps is bad because the wording on the spell means it doesn't do what it says on the tin. It is a bad spell.

Which I believe is because of how traps work or don't work. I cannot see a way of rewriting the spell to work within the content of traps in 5e.
If you have fire immunity would it ping for a flame based trap?

[Tanarii]

Yeah, SCAG cantrips. Booming Blade does literally nothing at base if your enemy doesn't move, and why would it if it has even an inkling of what the spell does?
Working as intended. It's primarily a tanking cantrip, the goal is to make the enemy stay put, or at least face a hard choice about moving. If the DM is having the enemy move and take damage + OA every time, that's just a passable side benefit.

What's not working with the SCAG cantrips is that they generally obviate Extra Attack. They're especially brutal on Clerics and Rogues.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Working as intended. It's primarily a tanking cantrip, the goal is to make the enemy stay put, or at least face a hard choice about moving. If the DM is having the enemy move and take damage + OA every time, that's just a passable side benefit.

What's not working with the SCAG cantrips is that they generally obviate Extra Attack. They're especially brutal on Clerics and Rogues.

They don't, at least entirely. Extra attack gets extra static damage, the cantrips don't. And shove all the risk into one basket. I had a rogue in a game who knew the cantrip but never used it once he had two weapons[1] that did extra bonus damage on hit.

[1] even a +1 will do this, but he had flametongue-equivalents and Dual Wielder. Attacking 2x, even without the ability mod to the second, was quite a big hit.

[stoutstien]

The fact that BB works with so many class features because it is both a weapon attack and a spell and with little set up is what bugs me. Divine smite + quicken as an example.

If it was a lv one spell it would still be a great spell.

[Ali_face]

1. Hex and Hunter's Mark

These spells are functional from a mechanical aspect, but their need for concentration is really limiting.

Concentration is a limited resource, especially for Warlocks.

Its already bad enough that WotC shunted a core class feature to the spell list, but requiring concentration just adds further insult to injury.

2. Non Ritual Ritual Spells

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there are ton of spells that SHOULD be rituals but are not for some reason. The Ritual Caster feat/ class feature should also allow you to turn non ritual spells into rituals in some limited way... maybe by allowing a certain number for level, or day.

[NNescio]

Find Traps
Find Traps
Find Traps

It doesn't work.


Ironically this is a trap option :smallcool:

It can't even find itself!



Find Traps is bad because the wording on the spell means it doesn't do what it says on the tin. It is a bad spell.

Which I believe is because of how traps work or don't work. I cannot see a way of rewriting the spell to work within the content of traps in 5e.
If you have fire immunity would it ping for a flame based trap?

Probably. (Because, presumably speaking, getting bathed in flames can still be considered "harmful or undesirable" even if one is immune to fire damage.) But that's beside the point. Let me quote myself from an earlier thread:


Find Traps. This spell is completely useless.

First it's a one-shot instantaneous Divination spell, so it only gives you info once, on the turn your cast it.

Next it only allows you to sense the presence of traps within LoS (within a puny 120 ft). So they have to be lying in plain sight anyway, at which you could, yannow, just use active Perception to search?

Next it only reveals traps that were intended to be traps by their creators. Natural terrain pitfalls? Nope. Collapsing floor? Nope (unless it is mechanically designed that way). This makes it worse than Perception.

Next the spell doesn't even tell you WHERE the traps are. It only tells you that "a trap is present". Stupid Admiral Ackbar moment indeed.

Heck, the spell doesn't even specify it tells you the number of traps. It's a trap (more like "there's at least one trap"), that's it.

At least it does tell you "the general nature of the danger posed by a trap you sense", so you can fearlessly Leeroy Jenkins on if the DM made the traps relatively harmless just to slow you down (like say if there's an enemy/rival ahead of you who's trying to prevent you from reaching him in time by laying down cheap traps to delay you).

But for most purposes?

"It's a trap! Or traps, I dunno! I don't even know where they are! Oh and the traps are really dangerous!"

Thanks for nothing, Find Traps.

What constitutes a trap or not for the purposes of the spell is just a relatively small issue. (It's a nerf, but at least it makes adjudication easier.) The main problem is that it gives you painfully obvious information that you would have known anyway if you're even considering using the spell (or something named like the spell, more like).

The spell can be easily fixed by giving it a duration and letting the caster repeat-trigger the "trap radar" effect of the spell as an action on its turn, while the spell is active. (It still won't let you pinpoint traps, but getting an idea of how dangerous/trap-filled an area is as you move through can be useful, and allows for creative use [with selective blocking of LoS and triangulation] to indirectly pinpoint traps.)

Or, you know, just give the caster proficiency for the purposes of Wisdom (Perception) (and maybe Intelligence (Investigation)) checks for actually "finding" traps*, within some duration. Double the proficiency bonus if the caster already has proficiency. This also makes it resemble the historical spell.

(Or advantage instead of proficiency/double proficiency, for greater simplicity, but this makes the spell stack poorer.)

(*Using the same definition for traps as the spell, if the DM doesn't want to consider environmental hazards.)

Still niche, but at least it's usable for its intended purpose.

[sithlordnergal]

Here are the spells I'd fix and the fixes I'd make:

1) Hex and Hunters Mark:

- Do not require Concentration to cast


2) True Strike:

- Bonus Action to cast

- Target Self

- Gain advantage on attack rolls until the start of your next turn

- Concentration


3) Any spell that allows the player to summon a creature:

- The caster chooses the CR and creatures that are summoned


4) Hunger of Hadar

- You take half of 2d6 Acid on a failed Dexterity saving throw

- The damage for the Cold and Acid increases by 2d6 for every slot above 3rd that is used to cast this spell.


5) The Smite Spells:

- They are not Concentration.

[nickl_2000]

I don't understand the no concentration Hex people are saying. Isn't a Warlock with Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast powerful enough with raw damage output? Do you really want they to be able to shove Hex out there and have it last forever?

[stoutstien]

Here are the spells I'd fix and the fixes I'd make:

1) Hex and Hunters Mark:

- Do not require Concentration to cast


2) True Strike:

- Bonus Action to cast

- Target Self

- Gain advantage on attack rolls until the start of your next turn

- Concentration


3) Any spell that allows the player to summon a creature:

- The caster chooses the CR and creatures that are summoned


4) Hunger of Hadar

- You take half of 2d6 Acid on a failed Dexterity saving throw

- The damage for the Cold and Acid increases by 2d6 for every slot above 3rd that is used to cast this spell.


5) The Smite Spells:

- They are not Concentration.

Without concentration on smite spells how long is the duration?

True strike applying to all attacks is a joke right?

Hex and hunters mark needs concentration or they need to be moved to a class feature like the hexblade curse.

HoH doesn't need a buff. Lots of weak cc spells on the list. Why that one?

[JackPhoenix]

There's no reason for Witch Bolt to consume both your Action and your Concentration in order to be worth anything (Except in the very narrow case of destroying an inanimate object or structure).

Which it can't actually do, as you can only target creature, not an object.


5) The Smite Spells:

- They are not Concentration.

That would be incredibly broken on sorcadins. As if their nova wasn't powerful enough already, now they would be able to stack smite spells on top of that?

[stoutstien]

It can't even find itself!



Probably. (Because, presumably speaking, getting bathed in flames can still be considered "harmful or undesirable" even if one is immune to fire damage.) But that's beside the point. Let me quote myself from an earlier thread:



What constitutes a trap or not for the purposes of the spell is just a relatively small issue. (It's a nerf, but at least it makes adjudication easier.) The main problem is that it gives you painfully obvious information that you would have known anyway if you're even considering using the spell (or something named like the spell, more like).

The spell can be easily fixed by giving it a duration and letting the caster repeat-trigger the "trap radar" effect of the spell as an action on its turn, while the spell is active. (It still won't let you pinpoint traps, but getting an idea of how dangerous/trap-filled an area is as you move through can be useful, and allows for creative use [with selective blocking of LoS and triangulation] to indirectly pinpoint traps.)

Or, you know, just give the caster proficiency for the purposes of Wisdom (Perception) (and maybe Intelligence (Investigation)) checks for actually "finding" traps*, within some duration. Double the proficiency bonus if the caster already has proficiency. This also makes it resemble the historical spell.

(Or advantage instead of proficiency/double proficiency, for greater simplicity, but this makes the spell stack poorer.)

(*Using the same definition for traps as the spell, if the DM doesn't want to consider environmental hazards.)

Still niche, but at least it's usable for its intended purpose.

I always felt it would be better the scrap the trap angle completely and give a generic boost to survivability in the circumstances that might include traps but not exclusively.

Like a self only buff that last one hour and grants advantage on the next Dex or str saving throw. It a narrow niche but works will traps, natural hazards, or even possibly a NPC effect.

[sithlordnergal]

Without concentration on smite spells how long is the duration?

True strike applying to all attacks is a joke right?

Hex and hunters mark needs concentration or they need to be moved to a class feature like the hexblade curse.

HoH doesn't need a buff. Lots of weak cc spells on the list. Why that one?

The Smite Spells last a single minute, and only effect a single attack. It would require some reworking of certain spells, like Banishing Smite, Branding Smite, and Blinding Smite. But the others, like Wrathful, Searing, Thunderous, and Staggering Smite don't really need to be concentration. Staggering Smite only lasts for one Round according to its spell description, Thunderous shoves a target, and targets can use their actions to end the effects of Searing and Wrathful.


Nope, not a joke for True Strike. It costs a Bonus Action and Concentration to use in exchange for Advantage, and I think that's a balanced exchange. Sure, you gain advantage for a single round on all attacks, but what are you giving up to get that? First, you give up your bonus action. Monks and Rogues are gonna have trouble with that. Next, you give up Concentration. Welp, there goes any Wizard or Hexblade that might really love it. Honestly, the only class that could get some great use out of it without losing anything at all is the Fighter. Which I'm fine with that.

Honestly, Hex and Hunters Mark should be class abilities, not spells. Turning them into essentially a class ability that can be Counterspelled or Dispelled is fine in my eyes.

As for HoH, its mainly because Warlock spells that don't have any form of really scaling bugs me. Its already a sub-par choice for...really anyone. A 3rd level spell that creates Darkness, Difficult Terrain, and does up to 4d6 Cold/Acid damage if the target remains in the area and fails a Dex save. The Darkness isn't exactly great...It blocks line of sight and cancels out Advantage/Disadvantage due to how sight rules work. Difficult Terrain is nice, but considering Spike Growth, Entangle, Earthen Grasp, and so many other spells cause it, you have better options. And finally, 2d6 Cold when you start your turn in the effect, and potentially 2d6 Acid if you end your turn in the effect is not good enough. Giving it a way to scale the damage makes it a far more viable choice.


That would be incredibly broken on sorcadins. As if their nova wasn't powerful enough already, now they would be able to stack smite spells on top of that?

Ehhh, I actually don't think they would. The Smite spells still have the limitation of only being good for a single attack that you hit with, and as a person who played a Soradin from level 1 to 20, I think I only used a Smite spell once...and that was at level 4 while I was still a pure Paladin. Once you get Sorcerer spells you have so many better spells to use then Smite Spells, and your Smites still take spell slots. There are so many better things to do with a Soradin spell slot then wasting it on a Smite spell.

[stoutstien]

A fighter with true strike as a bonus action can pretty much mimic the best parts of the entire samurai subclass. Every round. All day.

[Moxxmix]

I always felt it would be better the scrap the trap angle completely and give a generic boost to survivability in the circumstances that might include traps but not exclusively.

Like a self only buff that last one hour and grants advantage on the next Dex or str saving throw. It a narrow niche but works will traps, natural hazards, or even possibly a NPC effect.

Enhance Ability. 2nd level spell (just like Find Traps), gives a 1 hour (concentration) boost, allowing advantage on skill checks that fall under a selected stat. So, Enhance Ability: Owl's Wisdom — 1 hour of advantage on Perception or Survival (and possibly Insight) checks. Alternatively, Fox's Cunning (Intelligence), if you are using Investigation for finding traps.

The only thing Find Traps does better is give you an idea of what the trap might do, and really, even if you get some detail, that's only barely helpful. A physical trap? (IE: spiked pit; arrows out of the wall; rolling boulder; etc). A fire trap? (IE: fireball; fire streamed from holes in the floor or walls; turning the floor into lava; etc). A teleportation trap? (IE: teleports you into a pit of snakes; teleports you out of the dungeon; teleports you to another plane; teleports one person to the boss; etc). And since you don't know where the trap is, it's hard for any preparation to be useful.

So, fix for "Find Traps": Pick "Enhance Ability" instead.

[AdAstra]

-Ice Storm should be a 3rd level spell. Its damage is low enough and the rider weak enough that there's no reason for it to be where it is. Plus it rounds out the 3rd level damage spells

-Snilloc's Snowball Swarm is just a worse Shatter. It could probably do to either be a 15 ft. radius, or 4d6 damage.

-Conjure Barrage does way too little damage, especially for something you get at level 9. One could safely buff it to 6d8 with no issues, and even then it wouldn't be all that great.

-Lightning Arrow could be a 2nd level spell and it wouldn't be a big deal, since Rangers already have a bunch to concentrate on, and they could use some damage spells at that level.

-Polymorph could probably be toned down just a tad at the start. Something like CR=Character Level-2, which seems pretty fair since 1 CR is usually more significant than one character level in terms of power.

I focus a lot on damage spells since those are really easy to compare in most cases, but there are other ones as well, like long range teleport-type spells needing longer casting times so that they're not just easy escape buttons. There are definitely more that could be rewritten better, or new spells entirely, as satisfied with the existing spell list as I am.

[Tanarii]

-Polymorph could probably be toned down just a tad at the start. Something like CR=Character Level-2, which seems pretty fair since 1 CR is usually more significant than one character level in terms of power.
CR = level /2

[AdAstra]

CR = level /2

I find this solution far too punishing, since if I'm not mistaken, in most cases a Polymorphed PC is noticeably worse than a martial, which makes the spell only useful for casters that want more power in melee. Most casters don't really have a use for being a crappy melee character. If I were to weaken it any further, I would probably make it Level-3 and reduce the duration instead. Something like 1-10 minutes, so it's only really useful for a little while.

[Gignere]

True strike just need to apply to the next attack instead of next turn and it would be a perfectly viable cantrip. For both sorcerers and EK fighters.

[JNAProductions]

I find this solution far too punishing, since if I'm not mistaken, in most cases a Polymorphed PC is noticeably worse than a martial, which makes the spell only useful for casters that want more power in melee. Most casters don't really have a use for being a crappy melee character. If I were to weaken it any further, I would probably make it Level-3 and reduce the duration instead. Something like 1-10 minutes, so it's only really useful for a little while.

I mean, you get a whole new HP pool. That's useful, even if the damage capability goes down a bit.


True strike just need to apply to the next attack instead of next turn and it would be a perfectly viable cantrip. For both sorcerers and EK fighters.

Eh... It'd be a bit better, but not by much.

[Rebonack]

Hunger of Hadar

One of the few unique Warlock spells, but it doesn't scale with spell level at all. And automatically scaling spell levels is kind of Warlock's whole thing. While increasing the damage would be the obvious fix, I think it would be more interesting if its CC effect improved. At level 4 moving 5 feet requires 15 feet of movement. And level 5 moving 5 feet requires 20 feet of movement. That would help keep it an iconic option through the Warlock's whole career.

[stoutstien]

Hunger of Hadar

One of the few unique Warlock spells, but it doesn't scale with spell level at all. And automatically scaling spell levels is kind of Warlock's whole thing. While increasing the damage would be the obvious fix, I think it would be more interesting if its CC effect improved. At level 4 moving 5 feet requires 15 feet of movement. And level 5 moving 5 feet requires 20 feet of movement. That would help keep it an iconic option through the Warlock's whole career.

Id just make it bigger with up casting. The cc increases because it takes longer to get out.

[Rebonack]

Id just make it bigger with up casting. The cc increases because it takes longer to get out.

That would also work. I'm just fond of the idea of the Difficult Terrain becoming more difficult due to an intensifying distortion in space.

Also: Does it seem weird to anyone else that being blinded doesn't slow a creature down anymore? Is everyone Daredevil in 5e?

[NNescio]

Also: Does it seem weird to anyone else that being blinded doesn't slow a creature down anymore? Is everyone Daredevil in 5e?

Well, it might cause the creature to accidentally stumble into (unknown) difficult terrain or hazards like traps and falls (like sighted creatures wandering in hazardous terrain in complete darkness, without a light source). But yeah, no explicit movement penalty.

It's... part of the whole "simplify game rules" mindset of 5e, which might sometimes cause verisimilitude issues for some people (it does for me). 5e does provide the DM with more latitude to impose ad-hoc 'rulings' on a case-by-case basis though, for handling situations that they rules are not clear about. (Or at least to handwave it away, for DMs who like to run things more "strict RAW'.)

[ImproperJustice]

Transmute Rock: Should have far greater implications for what it actually does (should destroy most foundations or bury people alive in mud slides).

Chill Touch: It neither chills nor touches.


Side Note: Immolatiom does have it’s uses.
There are times you only want to harm a single target and it is verbal only. So great if you find yourself grappled. Speak a word of power and torch your opponent for laying their mitts on you.
It is a death sentence to giants and uses.
Very situational but those situations do happen.

[Tanarii]

Chill Touch: It neither chills nor touches.
It created a hand that clings to the target. That's pretty touchy.

The chill part is a pretty obvious reference to the chill of the grave.

[Sigreid]

True strike would be cool if you could cast it on an ally within 30' and it affected their next attack.

[stoutstien]

True strike would be cool if you could cast it on an ally within 30' and it affected their next attack.

Like the Mastermind? I do like this idea maybe an action to grant a bonus to attack equal to the casters spell modifier. The action and concentration could keep it check but could be a fun combo to save spell slots.

[Sigreid]

Like the Mastermind? I do like this idea maybe an action to grant a bonus to attack equal to the casters spell modifier. The action and concentration could keep it check but could be a fun combo to save spell slots.

If I remember what TS actually does it's more like "For my action, the rogue hits on his next attack".

[JumboWheat01]

True Strike would be a great thing if you could have it affect an ally. Rogues of all stripes and Champion Fighters would love that advantage. And it would feel like such a Diviner thing to do, just making sure allies have the know-how to deal maximum damage.

Poison Spray is a cantrip I feel could use some love, but I don't know how to help it. It does a nice amount of damage for an at-will ability (1d12 to 4d12,) but it deals both Poison Damage, which is probably the worst type to use offensively, and it relies on a Constitution save, probably the worst save to target. And its range (a mere 10 feet) leaves much to be desired.

Power Word: Kill is also kind of a waste of a 9th level slot. With 100 HP left, you and your party pretty much have it wrapped up. Sure, I suppose it has *some* uses, but still, it needs a little something more to make it feel worth the ONE 9th level slot per day that you will ever have.

Also, it's nitpicky, but Mass Healing Word needs to be on the Bard's list by default. Seriously.

[NNescio]

True Strike would be a great thing if you could have it affect an ally. Rogues of all stripes and Champion Fighters would love that advantage. And it would feel like such a Diviner thing to do, just making sure allies have the know-how to deal maximum damage.

Something something Help action. Or Familiar Help action, ideally with Flyby. Or Minor Illusion for cheesing visibility.



Poison Spray is a cantrip I feel could use some love, but I don't know how to help it. It does a nice amount of damage for an at-will ability (1d12 to 4d12,) but it deals both Poison Damage, which is probably the worst type to use offensively, and it relies on a Constitution save, probably the worst save to target. And its range (a mere 10 feet) leaves much to be desired.

Allow it to retarget an adjacent (to the initially targeted) creature within range, if the first one makes it save. (Only works once per cast, of course.)



Power Word: Kill is also kind of a waste of a 9th level slot. With 100 HP left, you and your party pretty much have it wrapped up. Sure, I suppose it has *some* uses, but still, it needs a little something more to make it feel worth the ONE 9th level slot per day that you will ever have.

Target eats some automatic damage (20~50) as consolation, I suppose.



Also, it's nitpicky, but Mass Healing Word needs to be on the Bard's list by default. Seriously.

Bard is already too good (Second best caster while also being the best face and skillmonkey, all at the same time. And is a CHA class). This forces them to eat an opportunity cost (Magical Secrets) if they want to hedge out the Cleric's role even more.

[AvatarVecna]

Healing Spirit has two primary problems: the first is that the fluff and crunch don't agree with each other (a problem Spirit Guardians also has to a degree but ehhhhhh), and the second is that the crunch is broken because of the lack of action economy. Since the crunch has to change anyway, and doesn't match the fluff, changing it to match the fluff makes sense, but would also go a good long way towards fixing the spell: make it a summon-able creature that is difficult but not impossible to destroy at level 3 (making it an HP sink regardless of whether enemies attack it or let it heal), and make it so the creature can heal using its own action and reaction, but that's it. Putting all the action economy on the creature puts a hard cap on total healing at a level that is reasonable for both in- and out-of-combat healing, without unnecessarily limiting the caster's actions. For upcasting benefits, rather than increasing the amount of healing per shot, you instead summon more spirits; at higher levels, they'll be easier to kill, but that's fine - a level 2 spell upcast to 9th shouldn't be onpar with a natively-9th lvl healing/summoning spell (if such a thing existed). If this version of Healing Spirit were upcast to 9th, it would summon 8 spirits healing a maximum of 2d6 per round each, for a total healing of 160d6, which is still less than Mass Heal provides but can be provided over time.

[Petrocorus]

Mending. That should be a level 1 ritual.
The opportunity cost is too big for how situational the spell is.

[ImproperJustice]

It created a hand that clings to the target. That's pretty touchy.

The chill part is a pretty obvious reference to the chill of the grave.

It does Necrotic damage at a range of 120’
Should be called “Long distance poke of Death”
Or:
Death Touch, Death Grasp, Death Blast, Ghost Hand, Ghost Touch, etc.....

Vs.

Chill Touch:

Make a melee spell attack vs. a target. On hit it inflicts 1d8 cold damage + some cold themed rider.

[NNescio]

Mending. That should be a level 1 ritual.
The opportunity cost is too big for how situational the spell is.

Sorcs don't get rituals. Bards burn a spell known. Clerics burn a spell prepared.

(Druids... are like Clerics, but they probably don't want the spell anyway either way [cantrip or ritual]. Too many other stuff to pick [plus they usually don't have much gear to fix]. The Cleric, on the other hand, doesn't really have many good cantrip choices, even with XGtE on the table, so a decent chunk will take Mending.)

You're looking at it from the perspective of a Wizard who gets 'free' rituals.

It also makes creative use* of the spell hard or tediously impossible, because now it takes 11 minutes per "break or tear". Also stuff like fixing arrows and 'healing' constructs† also become less practical.

(*e.g. purposely wreck your wagon wheels/axles [or other mechanical geegaws] to fix them later, hide or waterproof stuff [including spellbooks] in hollow objects, make security token halves and 'impossible' manacles and chains, weaponize molds [or other dangerous substances] in sealed glass spheres, 'sewing' up corpses before Revivify [need Gentle Repose first or a second caster] or Raise Dead, ...)

(†RAW doesn't provide a way to adjudicate how much HP is healed, but the spell suggests it can "repair" constructs. UA also has explicit rules on how much HP is healed for Artificer constructs.)


It does Necrotic damage at a range of 120’
Should be called “Long distance poke of Death”
Or:
Death Touch, Death Grasp, Death Blast, Ghost Hand, Ghost Touch, etc.....

Vs.

Chill Touch:

Make a melee spell attack vs. a target. On hit it inflicts 1d8 cold damage + some cold themed rider.

Yes, let's make the spell useless.

(And redundant. See Ray of Frost and Frostbite. Chill Touch, meanwhile, is currently the only attack cantrip that deals necromantic damage. [TtD keys off saves])

[Protolisk]

It does Necrotic damage at a range of 120’
Should be called “Long distance poke of Death”
Or:
Death Touch, Death Grasp, Death Blast, Ghost Hand, Ghost Touch, etc.....

Vs.

Chill Touch:

Make a melee spell attack vs. a target. On hit it inflicts 1d8 cold damage + some cold themed rider.

You've just made Frostbite.

I would "fix" it the first way, just change the name. The actual cantrip is perfectly fine as is, but the name is non-indicative. But a spell of its name has existed for a while. so it's just one of those inherited spell names to make it "feel like DnD".

[ImproperJustice]

Sorcs don't get rituals. Bards burn a spell known. Clerics burns a spell prepared.

(Druids... are also like Cleric, but they probably don't want the spell anyway either way [cantrip or ritual]. Too many other stuff to pick [plus they usually don't have much gear to fix]. The Cleric, on the other hand, doesn't really have many good cantrip choices, even with XGtE on the table, so a decent chunk will take Mending.)

You're looking at it from the perspective of a Wizard who gets 'free' rituals.

It also makes creative use* of the spell hard or tediously impossible, because now it takes 11 minutes per "break or tear". Also stuff like fixing arrows and 'healing' constructs† also become less practical.

(*e.g. purposely wreck your wagon wheels/axles [or other mechanical geegaws] to fix them later, hide or waterproof stuff [including spellbooks] in hollow objects, make security token halves and 'impossible' manacles and chains, weaponize molds [or other dangerous substances] in sealed glass spheres, 'sewing' up corpses...)

(†RAW doesn't provide a way to adjudicate how much HP is healed, but the spell suggests it can "repair" constructs. UA also has rules on how much HP is healed for Artificer constructs)



Yes, let's make the spell useless.

(And redundant. See Ray of Frost and Frostbite. Chill Touch, meanwhile, is currently the only attack cantrip that deals necromantic damage. [TtD keys off saves])

My beef is not with what it does, but the name is a misnomer.

Tell you what. Go find a group of people who have never played D&D. Tell them there is a spell called chill touch and ask them what they think that does.

How many do you think will say:
It creates a floating ghost hand that does instant death damage at range then disappears.

Instead the majority will rightfully assume that it is a touch range based cold spell.

I get this is mostly a pet peeve of mine, since I run with an above average number of first timers to the hobby, so it probably bugs me more than the average D&D vet. Mostly because of the above average number of times I have seen players go:
“Wait! It does what?”

Just saying: the spell name gives the wrong impression.
Like Find Traps.
Hence why it needs a rewrite or name change.

[Tanarii]

How many do you think will say:
It creates a floating ghost hand that does instant death damage at range then disappears.It creates a hand that reaches out with the chill touch of the grave, then clings to the target until the next round.

[Protolisk]

My beef is not with what it does, but the name is a misnomer.

You know, if we are renaming spells based on names, not just the ones that are objectively broken, then there are a few candidates.

Daylight doesn't really do anything with daytime, or sunlight in general. Any creature that usually would fear "daylight" since the light is sunlight during the day, isn't disadvantaged by the spell Daylight at all. it's basically just a glorified way to dispel Darkness.

You know what, Daylight might need some mechanical fixing too. Its mostly a glorified way to dispel Darkness, even though Dispel Magic does the exact same thing. Beyond that it just... makes things bright. Which isn't bad, but for a level 3 spell its a bit much that its the Light cantrip with extended radius. It doesn't need concentration and lasts longer than one instant, so maybe it is balanced?


Detect Evil and Good no longer detect Evil or Good, it detects aberrations, fey, celestials, elemental, fiends, and undead. Many creatures of these things categories are neutral. It should probably be Detect Planar Outsider or something, except not even undead are really planar entities unless they come from the negative Energy Plane. It's another one of those spells that used to do what it did, but now in 5e it does something different. Protection form Evil and Good, same thing. Similar to how Find traps doesn't actually find traps.


Expeditious Retreat does not mean you have to run away. You can also run toward. It should just be Run Really Fast. Longstrider already took the cool name but has a different effect.

[JumboWheat01]

It creates a hand that reaches out with the chill touch of the grave, then clings to the target until the next round.

I prefer thinking of it as the Thing from the Addams Family scurrying about and grabbing hold of your target.

[Petrocorus]

Sorcs don't get rituals. Bards burn a spell known. Clerics burn a spell prepared.

Are they better off burning one of their too few (*) cantrips on it?

Clerics are the only ones who run out of interesting cantrips soon enough.




It also makes creative use* of the spell hard or tediously impossible, because now it takes 11 minutes per "break or tear". Also stuff like fixing arrows and 'healing' constructs† also become less practical.

(*e.g. purposely wreck your wagon wheels/axles [or other mechanical geegaws] to fix them later, hide or waterproof stuff [including spellbooks] in hollow objects, make security token halves and 'impossible' manacles and chains, weaponize molds [or other dangerous substances] in sealed glass spheres, 'sewing' up corpses before Revivify [need Gentle Repose first or a second caster] or Raise Dead, ...)

I grant you your point on creative uses of the spell though, and fixing ammunitions. I think i may even use you idea for impossible manacles.



(†RAW doesn't provide a way to adjudicate how much HP is healed, but the spell suggests it can "repair" constructs. UA also has explicit rules on how much HP is healed for Artificer constructs.)


Without RAW, i don't know if many DM would allow you to actually heal HP.

(*) it's always too few.

[Tanarii]

I prefer thinking of it as the Thing from the Addams Family scurrying about and grabbing hold of your target.
That'd work if it was like spiritual hammer, that created something that occupied a space and had to be moved around and made a melee spell attack. But my head canon more like the caster extending their own essence to grab the person at range, thus the ranged attack. That also explains why you need line of effect to the target.

[Protolisk]

Are they better off burning one of there too few (*) cantrips on it?

Sorcerers have the most cantrips known out of any class. Start with 4, scaling to 6, all others start with 3 or 2, or simply none, and in the end reach 5 or 4. Some subclasses change this, but not all. Artificer may change this, but I won't judge it fully until the full official one is out.


Without RAW, i don't know if many DM would allow you to actually heal HP.

I know mending can be used for Battlesmith Artificers in the UA to heal their iron defenders, but once again, not fully official just yet, so this may change.

[ImproperJustice]

I also join in the camp for objecting to Daylight which does not produce daylight.

[Petrocorus]

I'd like to add Phantom Steed. Maybe that's because i miss th 3.5 version, but i really think it should do more and last more.


Sorcerers have the most cantrips known out of any class. Start with 4, scaling to 6, all others start with 3 or 2, or simply none, and in the end reach 5 or 4. Some subclasses change this, but not all. Artificer may change this, but I won't judge it fully until the full official one is out.


IMHO, it's still too few. I'm not talking from a balance PoV, it's just that, as a player, i always wish i could get more.



I also join in the camp for objecting to Daylight which does not produce daylight.
So do i.

[stoutstien]

I also join in the camp for objecting to Daylight which does not produce daylight.
Agreed. It's a big slot and even if it's real sunlight is very limited.

[Rebonack]

Well, it might cause the creature to accidentally stumble into (unknown) difficult terrain or hazards like traps and falls (like sighted creatures wandering in hazardous terrain in complete darkness, without a light source). But yeah, no explicit movement penalty.

It's... part of the whole "simplify game rules" mindset of 5e, which might sometimes cause verisimilitude issues for some people (it does for me). 5e does provide the DM with more latitude to impose ad-hoc 'rulings' on a case-by-case basis though, for handling situations that they rules are not clear about. (Or at least to handwave it away, for DMs who like to run things more "strict RAW'.)

Combined with the fact that two blinded creatures both attack each other normally per RAW?

Everyone is totally Daredevil in 5e.