Making a DC 100 knowledge Religion check

[Jowgen]

I am looking to boost a single Knowledge (Religion) check as high as possible for the purposes of BoVD sacrificing, to around a ball-park of 100.

Lets assume 5 ranks and an Int mod of 5 to start, and that the various sacrifice specific bonuses net us a +10 on the check (e.g. Unhallowed & Desecrated space, good-aligned & virginal victim, etc.). We have a straight caster with liberal access to scrolls for this.

So we need to make up the remaining 80-odd points of bonus. We can't take 10 and Guidance of the Avatar is out. This is what I got so far.

Masterwork tool, for +2 circumstance bonus

Sacrifical Skill spell, 1st level, Untyped bonus of +5

Improvisation spell, 1st level, Luck bonus equal to 1/2 caster level.

Loresong spell (Dragon 335), 1st level, Competence bonus equal to 4 + 1/2 caster level

Divine Insight spell, 2nd level, Insight bonus up to a +15 cap

Demoncall spell, 2nd level, Profane bonus of +10

Anamensis spell (Dragon 338), 3rd level, Untyped bonus of +10

Assuming a caster level of 20, this nets us a bonus of 2+5+10+14+15+10+10 = 66.

With our assumed 1 on the Dice roll and the total +20 at base we get to 87; i.e. 13 points short.

So, other than boosting ranks, Int or caster level for more return on Loresong and Improvisation, can anyone think of other means to increase this check further?

[Saintheart]

Action Points? It's a d20 roll.

Surge of Fortune for a natural 20 on the roll?

[Vizzerdrix]

A kenku assistant using aid other gets you +3.

The educated feat gives a +1 or 2 bonus to two knowledge skills on top of making them class skills.

Maybe one of the apprentice feats. I know they can break the limit by a point.

And skill focus for +3.

[Zaq]

Get a truenamer buddy (or dip in three levels yourself). +5 from universal aptitude and +10 from hidden truth will do ya. And +3 from knowledge focus if you’re spending the levels yourself.

[zlefin]

A Marshal using motivate intelligence aura could raise it by several points for the caster. Since it's a circumstance bonus it'll stack fine.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A few custom skill boosting items with a schema to provide item alteration? That can get you a nice +15 alchemical bonus.

[daremetoidareyo]

Gimme a second, there might be an affiliation that'll help

bind dantallion for a +8? can you pact bind this through a feat? I forget.

truespeak hidden truth for a +10. Remember that you can make truespeak potions

favored in guild: scholastic will allow a taking 20, if it's research related

favored in house Sivis (dragonmarked p.73) can net you a +20 circumstance bonus, so...there's 58 + the stuff you mentioned if you can take 20.

I may have some other nugget here.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514547-The-Library-of-Knowledge-Getting-the-most-out-of-your-studies&p=21809006

[pabelfly]

If you want to sacrifice enough people you only need a score of 80 or so, that natural 20 will eventually show up.

What conditions are you able to set up for this? There are quite a few circumstantial bonuses you can set up to boost your check.

[Feantar]

Since dragon magazine is in, Skilful Moment(Dr 350) makes you roll a 20 on a skill check. So, you essentially get +19 on your initial roll and get to 106.

On boosting Int: Extract Drug can give you a +2 alchemical bonus to INT through Mushroom Powder, for a total of +1 to your check.

On spells that give CL boosts that can help other spells:

Create Magic Tattoo: +1 Untyped
Terran Brandy(Through Minor Creation): +2 Alchemical
Spell Enhancer can boost the CL of your next spell by +2


Oh, don't forget that, if you have a familiar, they can aid another for +2. And they share your ranks so they can make the roll.

Then, there are feats, such as reserves of strength, primitive caster (combined with still and silent rods) etc, to boost your CL (and thus the bonuses from improvisation and Divine Insight), but I doubt you're looking for such an adjustment to your build. Note, however, that reserves of strength uncaps the spell, and thus might actually be worth it if you boost your CL by a lot.

In the rare case that you include pathfinder material, tell me, there are a few gems you can use to boost your skill check.

Edit:Since you didn't mention it, you can charm or dominate the victim for a +1 (willing but duped or controlled). Or mindrape them to make them actually willing for a +3.

[Telonius]

Not sure if this will help, but Warlocks can get the Otherworldly Whispers invocation (Complete Mage) to get a +6 untyped bonus to Knowledge Arcana, Religion, and Planes. If it's a Warlock, it can get scrolls of everything, so it can get any of the spells already mentioned.

[ben-zayb]

Depends on acceptable cheese. If being an actual devil is acceptable, just cozy up with Mephistopheles and grab the Mark of Cania feat (and its prerequisite). That's a +NI to skill checks as long as you don't hit with an attack or have a creature fail their save against your spell/sla/su.

[Kalkra]

Memory Jar (Dragon #342) gives you +1 competence /2 caster levels, max +5, and let's you reroll a failed Knowledge check that was failed within the last minute. In theory, you should be able to keep casting the spell, rerolling over and over again.

Skillful Moment (Dragon #350) lets you take 20 on a skill check.

You may be able to use aid another, not sure.

Adept Spirit gives +1 CL, and +2 insight to Int checks, +1 for each point of essentia invested.

In addition to Otherworldly Whispers, DFAs get Draconic Knowledge, which does the same thing.

The Hardened Criminal feat lets you always take 10 on the chosen skill.

The Research feat can give you a bonus if you have a library around.

Lore of the Gods can give a +10 insight bonus to knowledge checks, and lets you reroll a failed check once.

The Exemplar class is all about boosting skill checks.

Draconic Knowledge (the Dragon Magic one) gives you a bonus on knowledge checks equal to the number of draconic feats you have.

The Absent-Minded trait gives you +1 to Knowledge checks.

[Psyren]

I am looking to boost a single Knowledge (Religion) check as high as possible for the purposes of BoVD sacrificing, to around a ball-park of 100.

Out of curiosity, what does this let you do?

[Jowgen]

Action Points? It's a d20 roll.

Surge of Fortune for a natural 20 on the roll?

Action points are a valid idea if they are in play, even though in this case they're not. Surge of Fortune would work, though in this case it seems inferior to Skillful moment (if that one flies).


A kenku assistant using aid other gets you +3.

The educated feat gives a +1 or 2 bonus to two knowledge skills on top of making them class skills.

Maybe one of the apprentice feats. I know they can break the limit by a point.

And skill focus for +3.

Skill focus might be an option as its available through a Frog God's fane magical location, though otherwise spending feats seems like an over-investment; but thanks for the suggestions.

Aid another is unfortunately out, as the sacrifice rules specific that "no one else can help with the check".


Get a truenamer buddy (or dip in three levels yourself). +5 from universal aptitude and +10 from hidden truth will do ya. And +3 from knowledge focus if you’re spending the levels yourself.

Helping with this would probably be the greatest thing that Truenamer ever accomplished in their life.


A Marshal using motivate intelligence aura could raise it by several points for the caster. Since it's a circumstance bonus it'll stack fine.

Had not considered this. Personally don't have that option at hand in my scenario, but otherwise a valid suggestion, thank you.


Gimme a second, there might be an affiliation that'll help

bind dantallion for a +8? can you pact bind this through a feat? I forget.

truespeak hidden truth for a +10. Remember that you can make truespeak potions

favored in guild: scholastic will allow a taking 20, if it's research related

favored in house Sivis (dragonmarked p.73) can net you a +20 circumstance bonus, so...there's 58 + the stuff you mentioned if you can take 20.

I may have some other nugget here.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514547-The-Library-of-Knowledge-Getting-the-most-out-of-your-studies&p=21809006

Dnatalion is not feat-able, too high level unfortunate.

A truespeak potion might be worthwhile.

Favored in the Guild's take 20 ability doesn't seem like it'll work with the sacrifice rule resistrctions, but it's certainly interesting.

Favored in the house might not work due to the "no one else can help with the check" rule of sacrifices though.

Love your Library handbook, great piece of work, big fan. :smallsmile:


Since dragon magazine is in, Skilful Moment(Dr 350) makes you roll a 20 on a skill check. So, you essentially get +19 on your initial roll and get to 106.

On boosting Int: Extract Drug can give you a +2 alchemical bonus to INT through Mushroom Powder, for a total of +1 to your check.

On spells that give CL boosts that can help other spells:

Create Magic Tattoo: +1 Untyped
Terran Brandy(Through Minor Creation): +2 Alchemical
Spell Enhancer can boost the CL of your next spell by +2


Oh, don't forget that, if you have a familiar, they can aid another for +2. And they share your ranks so they can make the roll.

Then, there are feats, such as reserves of strength, primitive caster (combined with still and silent rods) etc, to boost your CL (and thus the bonuses from improvisation and Divine Insight), but I doubt you're looking for such an adjustment to your build. Note, however, that reserves of strength uncaps the spell, and thus might actually be worth it if you boost your CL by a lot.

In the rare case that you include pathfinder material, tell me, there are a few gems you can use to boost your skill check.

Edit:Since you didn't mention it, you can charm or dominate the victim for a +1 (willing but duped or controlled). Or mindrape them to make them actually willing for a +3.

Skillful moment is very interesting. I had originally discarded it since the Sacrifice rules ban taking 20, but it might be that that the spell over-rides this perhaps? Not a 100%, but it seems like it might beat it in specific vs general...

The Int and CL boosters given seem a bit on the small side, especially considering returns on exp gained vs cost for the boost, but noted thank you.

Aid another is not permitted for sacrifices unfortunately.

Reserves of Strenght is unavailable, though it would combine nicely with divine insight since it's expendability nicely circumvents the stunning drawback interfering with the timing of the other spells and such. Pathfinder is off the table as well.

Dominate has been factored into the base +10 bonus, which really is more of a ballpark estimate of how much of a bonus one can expect to get for a given sacrifice with a decent amount of preparation.

Any case, thank you very much for some very good suggestions.



Memory Jar (Dragon #342) gives you +1 competence /2 caster levels, max +5, and let's you reroll a failed Knowledge check that was failed within the last minute. In theory, you should be able to keep casting the spell, rerolling over and over again.

Skillful Moment (Dragon #350) lets you take 20 on a skill check.

You may be able to use aid another, not sure.

Adept Spirit gives +1 CL, and +2 insight to Int checks, +1 for each point of essentia invested.

In addition to Otherworldly Whispers, DFAs get Draconic Knowledge, which does the same thing.

The Hardened Criminal feat lets you always take 10 on the chosen skill.

The Research feat can give you a bonus if you have a library around.

Lore of the Gods can give a +10 insight bonus to knowledge checks, and lets you reroll a failed check once.

The Exemplar class is all about boosting skill checks.

Draconic Knowledge (the Dragon Magic one) gives you a bonus on knowledge checks equal to the number of draconic feats you have.

The Absent-Minded trait gives you +1 to Knowledge checks.

Memory Jar is neat for the reroll ability, though as is Loresong makes for a better competence bonus source.

Skillful moment is being considered, just a question of whether it's wording of allowing you to take 20 over-rides the sacrifice rules prohibiting taking 10/20.

Adept Spirits CL boost seems a bit too small to be cost effective, while the insight bonus doesn't measure up to that from divine insight. Neither does Lore of the Gods, and if Skillful moment works then the reroll won't be needed.

The invocations might be of use if a Codex Advocare were acquired for a free least invocation, though it is expensive in that regard... then again, with enough sacrifices it might be worthwhile to craft one with Dark Craft resources.

Hardened Criminal is a great feat, but in this case since the skill description forbids taking 10, I don't think it'll be rules to apply. Skillful moment has a better chance I think and is the better option in this case.

Exemplar would be an interesting class for a dedicated sacrificer, but in general seems like a bit too hefty an investment. Much the same with Draconic Knowledge.

Absent-Minded would be good to through on though.

Thanks for all the suggestions.


Out of curiosity, what does this let you do?

It's just an exercise in optimizing dark craft exp gains.

Each point of extra religion nets an extra 3 exp for crafting, which is equivalent to a dose of Liquid Pain.

So optimizing this check is way more efficient than running a liquid pain hospital.

[denthor]

Look at the chart for sacarfice.

Hit dice of the victim.

Torture of victim 24 hours required.

Having some sort of outer planer specific to who is receiving victim

If willing is an add(Mother that exchanges with children(maybe), or true believer of the faith. If under spell for willing is a smaller add.

Day of makes a difference as well as time of day.

You also left using unholy water for an effect of unholy ground.

While were at it darkness candles and an alter.

[pabelfly]

Helping with this would probably be the greatest thing that Truenamer ever accomplished in their life.

Not sure I'd choose to call assisting in a human sacrifice great, but okay.

[Jowgen]

Look at the chart for sacarfice. [...]

While were at it darkness candles and an alter.

We're assuming a +10 from the inbuilt bonuses for ease of reference.

Also, a gothic choir; to really amp up that abviance.


Not sure I'd choose to call assisting in a human sacrifice great, but okay.

"After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things — terrible, yes, but great." . I dunno, Yoda or something

Also, the actual point being that Truenamer is a terrible class that genuinely is barely worth the paper it was printed on. Cool concept, arguably the worst execution in all of 3.5, which kinda makes it worse.

[Esprit15]

Since it somehow hasn’t been mentioned, you can basically double your skill points in K: Religion with an Item Familiar. Triple IIRC with the right ACF and being an elf.

[DrMotives]

For Knowledge skills, masterwork tool bonus can go as high as +6 if you use the various book sets & libraries from Stronghold Builder's Guide. They have book sets to boost any particular Knowledge skill in +2, +4, and +6 values, depending on how much you want to shell out for a library devoted to that subject.

[animewatcha]

HIgh enough affiliation score with knowledge domain church can first you a +2 untyped bonus. Higher affiliation score gets you an effective caster level increase in divination spells by 1.

[pabelfly]

"After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things — terrible, yes, but great." . I dunno, Yoda or something

Also, the actual point being that Truenamer is a terrible class that genuinely is barely worth the paper it was printed on. Cool concept, arguably the worst execution in all of 3.5, which kinda makes it worse.

I am aware of this. I was making a joke about the use of the word "great" in the context of assisting with a human sacrifice.

[daremetoidareyo]

One level dip in the dragonlances inquisitor prestige class will add ranks in concentration to your knowledge check. 1/day

Symbiote with a critter with k religion to get a sweet racial bonus

[AvatarVecna]

I see you're assuming an awful lot of high CL spells in there to maximize bonuses given to a guy who has no more than 5 ranks. I'm here to show you that all that isn't really necessary.

>Be me
>Wizard 5 with 1 rank in K (Religion)
>Angry cuz you can't cast Wish
>Angry cuz you can't make gods grant your wishes
>Commission a solid 5ft cube of iron to be built, weighing 60000 lbs
>Cast "Shrink Item" on your Murder Cube
>Murder cube now weighs 15 lbs, easily carried
>Find commoner trash nobody will miss
>Bet trash person a lot of money he can't hold your heavy iron cube above his head for a minute
>Trash person accepts your suspiciously easy wager cuz he's trash
>Cast "Sadism"
>Loudly announce "IT HAS BEGUN" to begin the ritual without tipping off the trash person
>Give the command word to un-shrink the cube, causing it to fall and deal 306d6 damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects)
>Make a note to not stand so close next time, and to research a deep-cleaning spell for your robes
>Make Knowledge check with an extra +107 on top of your normal bonus
>Quest to force gods to grant your wishes: Complete

EDIT: Yes, I'm aware the weight has to fall at least 10 ft in order to deal the Falling Object Damage, and that they'll get a Reflex save to dodge. You might need to find a really tall and clumsy commoner trash person, or maybe change the bet to something like "bet if I hover this above you and release it, you won't be able to catch it" or "bet if I hover this above you and release it, you're too wussy to take the hit". Gotta be some suckers in this world that'd fall for something like that, especially if you're betting enough money to override common sense.

EDIT 2: Admittedly, this trick is also dependent on whether the Falling Object Damage caused by you un-shrinking the cube counts as "you dealing damage", but I feel that's pretty nitpicky. Also I forgot to check if Shrink Item had a volume limit, and it does! So that's fun. Also since this is for optimizing dark craft points, you're probably best off getting the check as high as possible, and thus getting the iron as heavy as possible. Of course, too heavy and your wizard can't carry it around even when Shrunk, so take care there. Hmm, I guess if you had to, extra-dimensional spaces could help with the set-up...

Get a 6ft diameter/10 ft long cylinder of iron (138756 lbs), and instead of shrinking it down, put it in a Portable Hole (which, conveniently, has a volume limit but not a weight limit). Begin ritual, cast Sadism, put the Hole on a ceiling 10+ ft directly above a target of your choice who is sleeping or otherwise not aware enough to dodge, and let gravity do the rest. Now you'll get more than double the bonus out of it, and you're still Wizard 5 (albeit one that can afford a portable hole and an awful lot of iron, but still). Admittedly "get the iron cylinder into the portable hole" is probably the hardest part of this, and what makes it difficult to repeat. Initially, you can probably get smiths to just pour molten iron into the portable hole until it's full but you can't well do that after the first time you deploy it on some poor bastard.

[Quertus]

If you can afford *2* Portable Holes (or Kobald pit trap thingies), you can have it fall out of one, and into the second.

[DrMotives]

If you can afford *2* Portable Holes (or Kobald pit trap thingies), you can have it fall out of one, and into the second.

That's not how portable holes work. It's not a passwall effect, it's an ED space.

[Zaq]

If you can afford *2* Portable Holes (or Kobald pit trap thingies), you can have it fall out of one, and into the second.

Now you’re thinking with port-holes.

[Jowgen]

-Utter Sadism abuse insanity-

I love it.

However, I think your method is a bit cumbersome, rule-wise. There is nothing in the spell that specifies that you need to deal all the damage to a single target, it's just total damage dealt per turn.

So instead, I think it would be more efficient to use some middling AoE effect and max out the number of targets we can fit in there.

Lets take chickens for example. Cost 2 cp a piece. As tiny creatures we can easily fit 4 in a 5 ft square, double that if they squeeze, but there is no need. A lowly Fireball gives us 10d6 damage to each creature in a 20 ft radius, which is 44 5 ft squares just on the ground level. So assuming just 4 chickens per square, no 3 dimensional stacking, we can get 176 chickens in the area of a single fireball, each at taking 17 damage on average even on a successful save.


So even if it is ruled that the valid damage from sadism per target is capped at how much damage it takes to kill it, and that the damage only counts in increments of 10 per target, each chicken will still give us at least 1 point of bonus. So + 176 Luck bonus to our rolls/checks for 1 round, and keep in mind that this is a minimum assuming the most restrictive ruling/reading of the spells I can fathom, without even fully optimizing how densely we can pack our chickens.

Total cost: 3.52 GP worth of chicken, 1 sadism spell, 1 fireball spell.

[AvatarVecna]

I love it.

However, I think your method is a bit cumbersome, rule-wise. There is nothing in the spell that specifies that you need to deal all the damage to a single target, it's just total damage dealt per turn.

So instead, I think it would be more efficient to use some middling AoE effect and max out the number of targets we can fit in there.

Lets take chickens for example. Cost 2 cp a piece. As tiny creatures we can easily fit 4 in a 5 ft square, double that if they squeeze, but there is no need. A lowly Fireball gives us 10d6 damage to each creature in a 20 ft radius, which is 44 5 ft squares just on the ground level. So assuming just 4 chickens per square, no 3 dimensional stacking, we can get 176 chickens in the area of a single fireball, each at taking 17 damage on average even on a successful save.


So even if it is ruled that the valid damage from sadism per target is capped at how much damage it takes to kill it, and that the damage only counts in increments of 10 per target, each chicken will still give us at least 1 point of bonus. So + 176 Luck bonus to our rolls/checks for 1 round, and keep in mind that this is a minimum assuming the most restrictive ruling/reading of the spells I can fathom, without even fully optimizing how densely we can pack our chickens.

Total cost: 3.52 GP worth of chicken, 1 sadism spell, 1 fireball spell.

Fireball caps at 10d6 but base is 5d6...although I guess given the other spells, the guys skill ranks being limited isn't reflective of their CL being limited necessarily. In any case, this is definitely a much more solid plan - economically efficient, and no weirdness with extradimensional spaces and enormous iron cylinders. And yeah, shift a few of those assumptions, take advantage of three dimensions, maybe get a bigger AoE (and maybe widened?), and squeeze the chickens together...you can get quite a few in there. Needless to say, numbers can get ridiculous quickly, which makes costs increase exponentially, so best to get a Chicken-Infested Commoner involved at some point in the process.

[ShurikVch]

Some more bonuses

Spells:
Dragonblood Affinity (Dragons of Faerûn) - +2 on all skill checks (if you're Dragon or dragonblooded)
Focusing Chant (Spell Compendium) +1 circumstance on all skill checks
Heroism, Greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroismGreater.htm) - +4 morale on all skill checks
Share Talents (Player's Handbook II) - +2 on a skill check, if you have during casting a creature who have at least 1 rank in Knowledge (religion)

Classes:
Factotum (Dungeonscape) - Cunning Knowledge CF: your Factotum level to your Knowledge check; 1/day
Inquisitor PrC (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) - Extreme Focus CF allow to add your ranks in Concentration to Int- (or Wis-) based skill check; usable once per day per level, but available from the very first level

Feats:
Born under a Setting Sun (Dragon #315) +1
Breadth of Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#breadthofKnowledge) +1
Draconic Aura: Insight (Dragon Magic) +1
Education (Eberron Campaign Setting) +1
Nightborn Dragonmark (Dragonmarked) +1 - at night and not underground
Psymbiot (Complete Psionic) +2 - if you're psionicaly focused, and have other psionic character nearby
Rhenn Lore (Dragon #315) +1
Secrets of Dusk (Dragon #340) doesn't gives any actual bonus, but 1/day allow to take 20 on Knowledge check

Absent Minded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#absentMinded) trait +1

Psicrystal with Sage personality gives +3 on Knowledge

Raven familiar with Improved Familiar feat can use Aid Another on Knowledge checks