Nobody expects the ua inquisition

[DracoKnight]

Well, this (https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-AberrantLurk.pdf) certainly surprised me! Wanted to share it around the forum :smallbiggrin:

Definitely in love with the Deep Warlock.

[GandalfTheWhite]

More ****ty playtest material. Both of these seem wildly overpowered to me. WTF are they on over there?

[Fynzmirs]

New cantrip seems useful for everyone. Combine with Bane for extra fun.

Do we really need Lurker Warlock? I mean there is a GOO one and that one invocation in Xanathar...

[stoutstien]

The cantrip is a good idea. Little damage and utility is what most cantrips should be doing IMO.
The subclasses themselves are not bad but numbers need tweaking.

[DracoKnight]

New cantrip seems useful for everyone. Combine with Bane for extra fun.

Do we really need Lurker Warlock? I mean there is a GOO one and that one invocation in Xanathar...

I mean...GOO doesn't really do it for me for an undersea Warlock, though. For underwater I'd want less psychic stuff and more...well, kinda what they gave us here.

[Skyblaze]

Yay sorcerer archetype. Though I don't think it needs 10 extra spells (5 would do in my book...along with giving every other archetype the same treatment) and the unarmored defense (warped being) seems...out of place?

[JackPhoenix]

Looks like psionics is back in business, and without mystic this time. Neat.

[jaappleton]

You beat me by two minutes to making the topic, my brother. :smalltongue:

I’ll lock mine. No need dividing the discussion!

[jaappleton]

More ****ty playtest material. Both of these seem wildly overpowered to me. WTF are they on over there?

{Scrubbed}

[GandalfTheWhite]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}

[Jack Bitters]

So if the sorcerer gets 10 free spells known, does that preclude him from swapping them out each level for other spells, effectively increasing his repertoire by over 60%?

That's pretty strong and not really in line with the power levels of the other subclasses.

[Skyblaze]

So if the sorcerer gets 10 free spells known, does that preclude him from swapping them out each level for other spells, effectively increasing his repertoire by over 60%?

That's pretty strong and not really in line with the power levels of the other subclasses.

I think those are permanent spells that can't be changed in addition to the 15 (max) that can.

[jaappleton]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I’m excited about new content. I made zero proclamations regarding its balance.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

[Evaar]

So if the sorcerer gets 10 free spells known, does that preclude him from swapping them out each level for other spells, effectively increasing his repertoire by over 60%?

That's pretty strong and not really in line with the power levels of the other subclasses.

I would think any reasonable DM would prevent that. It's clearly meant to be a set of additional spells this Sorcerer gets, not an increase to the total "Spells Known" feature for the Sorcerer.

The subclasses seem pretty solid. Interesting cantrip. Between this and Information Overload from the Archivist Artificer, that's two cantrip-style attacks that target an Intelligence save and deal psychic damage. I wonder if that's the direction we should anticipate when we see official psionics. That would be an interesting choice, given its current status as one of the "weak" saves.

I'm not really seeing much broken stuff here otherwise. I guess the Sorcerer can spend a sorcery point to fly for an encounter without using Concentration. That seems good, but not ridiculous given that you could just be a winged tiefling for the same with no resource expenditure (and without getting covered in slime). I don't really see where the "overpowered" response above has any justification. Perhaps there's some synergy I'm not seeing and that individual might elucidate.

[jaappleton]

So if the sorcerer gets 10 free spells known, does that preclude him from swapping them out each level for other spells, effectively increasing his repertoire by over 60%?

That's pretty strong and not really in line with the power levels of the other subclasses.

I equate them to the Domain Spells of a Cleric; they’re always there for you to cast and don’t count against your limit.

[GandalfTheWhite]

I’m excited about new content. I made zero proclamations regarding its balance.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

After all the OP **** that was in Xanathar's, I dunno how anyone can get excited for new content from Mearls & Co.

Seriously, who the hell thought that the Hexblade, the Grave Cleric, and the Cavalier were okay?

[Daphne]

Copyint from the duplicate thread:

This is the first time I'm excited about a Sorcerer subclass, it gives you thematically relevant spells and even lets you cast them with sorcery points. I was never a fan of metamagic as the Sorcerer's signature, this is huge.

[Reynaerde]

I'm loving the new cantrip and it's interesting to see a new dissonant whispers user (will have to add that to my mini guide).

[stoutstien]

After all the OP **** that was in Xanathar's, I dunno how anyone can get excited for new content from Mearls & Co.

Seriously, who the hell thought that the Hexblade, the Grave Cleric, and the Cavalier were okay?

The hexblade is bad but I don't see anything wrong with the other 2....what I miss?

[SleeplessWriter]

I think those are permanent spells that can't be changed in addition to the 15 (max) that can.

Probably, but that's still kinda powerful for a sorcerer. I would have done it more like the warlocks expanded spell list and simply add them to the options you can choose from.

I like the 1st and 6th level stuff for the sorcerer, but the higher level features just rub me the wrong way and probably need toned down just a tad. For just under the equivalent of a 3rd level spell for one minute you get the effects of: fly, waterbreathing + swimspeed, the escape portion of freedom of movement + the ability to squeeze yourself and equipment through an inch or so of space, and a truesight-like ability that lets you no-sell sneaky enemies with fireballs and ice knives. And it doesn't count as a spell or require concentration.

[GandalfTheWhite]

The hexblade is bad but I don't see anything wrong with the other 2....what I miss?

Maximized healing when someone's dropped to 0 HP is ridiculous, and previously negating crits was the domain of magic items.

Cavalier gets nigh infinite reactions, which with the right build gets crazy. Cavalier is a huge part of why I stopped allowing feats at my table.

[Nhorianscum]

That new sorc looks bonkers and I fully intend to abuse it (Love me long time Cthulu daddy).
Lock is meh

[jaappleton]

One minor mistake with the Warlock Patron:

Shatter is already a Warlock spell.

[Skyblaze]

Probably, but that's still kinda powerful for a sorcerer. I would have done it more like the warlocks expanded spell list and simply add them to the options you can choose from.

I like the 1st and 6th level stuff for the sorcerer, but the higher level features just rub me the wrong way and probably need toned down just a tad. For just under the equivalent of a 3rd level spell for one minute you get the effects of: fly, waterbreathing + swimspeed, the escape portion of freedom of movement + the ability to squeeze yourself and equipment through an inch or so of space, and a truesight-like ability that lets you no-sell sneaky enemies with fireballs and ice knives. And it doesn't count as a spell or require concentration.

I think the permenance for sorcerer spells is because they're full caster unlike warlocks. Also, thematically, warlocks get unique spells as options from their patron vs sorcerers have those spells imbued in them, so to speak. I also think it should temper down to 5 spells (one for each spell slot) than 10. But thats just me, /shrug.

In the scheme of sorcerers, I'd say its on par with other 14th level abilities. Which, this is the only one that costs sorcerery points to use if I recall correctly.

[BRC]

Most "Broken" thing I see here is the Warlock picking up a pseudo Spiritual Weapon (Already quite a good spell) at 1st level. I guess the Guardian Grasp ability at 6th level is also pretty strong as a defensive tool.


Devouring Maw is roughly the power of a warlock spell, so it's basically just an extra, very specific, spell slot per short rest.

Unleash the Depths is plenty strong, serving as either a teleport or a powerful AoE but it's a 14th level ability, and to be honest, I basically stop caring about Balance at that point in the game. By that point, full casters have more than enough nasty tricks at their disposal so this doesn't really tip the scales.

Otherwise, the abilities really come down to being Aquaman? I'd put it at a step above the Phb Warlock archtypes, but not to an excessive degree. I guess you're maybe dealing an average of 4 extra damage a round, which is nothing to sneeze at on top of one of the most powerful basic attack routines (Eldritch Blast).

The Sorcerer seems cool. The Psionic Spells are the most powerful thing there, giving them some extra flexibility, and it's nice of them to try to give that GOOlock flavor to another class. It's definetly more powerful than the PHB archtypes, but I wouldn't say it's excessively so, since most of the Sorceror's power lies in it's base abilities as a flexible full caster, rather than as anything from particular archtypes.

[jaappleton]

NOTE ON PSIONIC SPELLS BEING ABLE TO BE SWAPPED OUT UPON A LEVEL UP

According to Dan Dillon, part of the WOTC design team, the intent is that they’re not able to be swapped out. They’re always known, always available.

[Skyblaze]

NOTE ON PSIONIC SPELLS BEING ABLE TO BE SWAPPED OUT UPON A LEVEL UP

According to Dan Dillon, part of the WOTC design team, the intent is that they’re not able to be swapped out. They’re always known, always available.

That would make the most sense. "Bloodline" spells shouldn't be able to be switched.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Maximized healing when someone's dropped to 0 HP is ridiculous, and previously negating crits was the domain of magic items.

Cavalier gets nigh infinite reactions, which with the right build gets crazy. Cavalier is a huge part of why I stopped allowing feats at my table.

An 18th level character gets to break the game? I am shocked. And of all the design faults in Xanathars (Hexblade is definitely a bit over the top) you choose subclasses, rather than Healing Spirit? Healing Spirit is such a mistake that the designers openly recognized it as one.

As for Sentinel at Death's Door (the crit negation feature) I'm quite sure that it isn't the only subclass feature that has an equivalent found in magic items. As soon as you remember that criticals are uncommon enough that this might be a dead feature in many sessions it makes more sense that their early level features are above the curve.

If this cantrip see's print it's going to see a lot of use. Decent damage and wonderful utility. I'm only a bit disappointed that it isn't on the Bard List, might just be my personal take but I think they deserve and alternative to Vicious Mockery. It has really good flavor for a Bard too.

EDIT: Minor note on the cantrip, probably irrelevant, but I noticed that it was worded strangely.
"The target must make an Intelligence saving throw. Unless the saving throw is successful, the target takes 1d6 psychic damage..."

[jaappleton]

An 18th level character gets to break the game? I am shocked. And of all the design faults in Xanathars (Hexblade is definitely a bit over the top) you choose subclasses, rather than Healing Spirit? Healing Spirit is such a mistake that the designers openly recognized it as one.

As for Sentinel at Death's Door (the crit negation feature) I'm quite sure that it isn't the only subclass feature that has an equivalent found in magic items. As soon as you remember that criticals are uncommon enough that this might be a dead feature in many sessions it makes more sense that their early level features are above the curve.

If this cantrip see's print it's going to see a lot of use. Decent damage and wonderful utility. I'm only a bit disappointed that it isn't on the Bard List, might just be my personal take but I think they deserve and alternative to Vicious Mockery. It has really good flavor for a Bard too.

Mind Splice + Bane + Synaptic Static would be a Hell if a combo.

[stoutstien]

Maximized healing when someone's dropped to 0 HP is ridiculous, and previously negating crits was the domain of magic items.

Cavalier gets nigh infinite reactions, which with the right build gets crazy. Cavalier is a huge part of why I stopped allowing feats at my table.
Ridiculous is a strong word. Is it any better than the life cleric? Crits are weak in 5e to began with so if feels powerful but it reality it prevents very little damage.

Cavaliers are sticky thats kinda the point. BM fighter is still doing more damage.

[Reynaerde]

If this cantrip see's print it's going to see a lot of use. Decent damage and wonderful utility. I'm only a bit disappointed that it isn't on the Bard List, might just be my personal take but I think they deserve and alternative to Vicious Mockery. It has really good flavor for a Bard too.I agree on both points: there isn't a lot out there to help you make an opponent fail its save, so this will be popular and it does seem to fit the bard well (making me even happier with that one level warlock dip I did).

[jaappleton]

I agree on both points: there isn't a lot out there to help you make an opponent fail its save, so this will be popular and it does seem to fit the bard well (making me even happier with that one level warlock dip I did).

New Warlock 1 / Bard is quite good as the tentacle (which really is just Spiritual Weapon) scales with Charisma and gets you mind Splice

[J-H]

TEN bonus spells known for a Sorcerer? That's huge. None of the other Sorcerous origins grant spells known...only spells that you may choose. The rest looks OK, but probably superior to Draconic Sorc. The bonus spells Known simply blows everything else out of the water though.

The Lurker spell list is pretty meh. Grasp of the Deep is a free Spiritual Weapon (2nd level spell) at first level CHA/day. Giving it up to absorb half damage from an enemy crit or spell is pretty good too. Devouring Maw is really, really good, due to the healing it grants.

Both of these also grant free teleports, which I'm not a huge fan of. Would not have at my table without modification.

[RickAllison]

Some of my points of thought, split up for ease of reading:


I did not know that Evard’s Tentacles weren’t on the warlock list. Are they in GOO’s list too?
While the 10 spells are too much, I really like the idea of having the specialty spells with the discount and no components. I hope that’s something they are looking for to do a Sorcerer overhaul, possibly changing it to a different free Metamagic. Draconic blasting with Empowered or such comes to mind.
I like the thematics of both. Neither tread the same ground of previous archetypes in that class

[suplee215]

Is it me or is that Warp Reality possibly broken? I am unsure how to change the warding but as I am reading it it is possible to teleport 1 mile straight into the air alongside the enemy who you positon 20 feet below you? and then you can fly starting on your next turn as the guy who failed a charisma save dies. I know at 18th level broken **** is possible but I can feel my players drooling for this possibility. (how much fall damage is 1 mile?)

[Bjarkmundur]

Now I can offer my characters to either use Grod's Psion or the UA Psion-Sorcerer. It's a good month to like Psion I guess!

[Damon_Tor]

(how much fall damage is 1 mile?)

fall damage maxes out at 200 feet IIRC, so 20d6.

[NaughtyTiger]

WOTC explicitly nerfed the GOO warlocks telepathy...

so they give the sorc improved GOO warlock telepathy

[BarneyBent]

Is it me or is that Warp Reality possibly broken? I am unsure how to change the warding but as I am reading it it is possible to teleport 1 mile straight into the air alongside the enemy who you positon 20 feet below you? and then you can fly starting on your next turn as the guy who failed a charisma save dies. I know at 18th level broken **** is possible but I can feel my players drooling for this possibility. (how much fall damage is 1 mile?)

It’s an 18th level feature. Is it any more broken than Wish?

[jaappleton]

It’s an 18th level feature. Is it any more broken than Wish?

SERIOUSLY.

In all honesty, attempting to balance high level, epic tier stuff is just a waste of time.

EVERYONE is capable of doing outright crazy, bonkers stuff. BY DESIGN.

[Evaar]

Is it me or is that Warp Reality possibly broken? I am unsure how to change the warding but as I am reading it it is possible to teleport 1 mile straight into the air alongside the enemy who you positon 20 feet below you? and then you can fly starting on your next turn as the guy who failed a charisma save dies. I know at 18th level broken **** is possible but I can feel my players drooling for this possibility. (how much fall damage is 1 mile?)

Check out the hostile use of Plane Shift.

[JumboWheat01]

I like the thematics of the new sorcerer orign, though with all those bonus spells, it almost strikes me as a "why use any other origin?" when compared to other sorcerers. Five spells would've been nice, I think that's all a sorcerer really needs extra, but ten whole spells? That gives a lot of wiggle room since you have so many thematic spells handed to you from the get-go.

The new warlock pact just makes me thing of GOO, even if it does a lot of different things from GOO.

That cantrip, though, I like that. Useful for when you've got another spell caster that makes use of saving throws a lot. Not too large of a damage dice, which is nice considering how rarely the damage type is resisted.

[RickAllison]

I like the thematics of the new sorcerer orign, though with all those bonus spells, it almost strikes me as a "why use any other origin?" when compared to other sorcerers. Five spells would've been nice, I think that's all a sorcerer really needs extra, but ten whole spells? That gives a lot of wiggle room since you have so many thematic spells handed to you from the get-go.

The new warlock pact just makes me thing of GOO, even if it does a lot of different things from GOO.

That cantrip, though, I like that. Useful for when you've got another spell caster that makes use of saving throws a lot. Not too large of a damage dice, which is nice considering how rarely the damage type is resisted.

It probably makes you think of GOO because it includes the Deep One side of the GOOs. "The Call of Cthulhu" is about the tentacled entity lurking in the depths of the ocean in the sunken city of Rlyeh.

[BarneyBent]

SERIOUSLY.

In all honesty, attempting to balance high level, epic tier stuff is just a waste of time.

EVERYONE is capable of doing outright crazy, bonkers stuff. BY DESIGN.

Fighter: “I hit stuff lots.”

[Kane0]

Hmm.

mmm...

Yeah there's some neat bits and pieces but feels sort of lacking. Themes have already been covered, I'll probably cannibalize this one for mechanics to use elsewhere too...

[Kadzar]

Both of these also grant free teleports, which I'm not a huge fan of. Would not have at my table without modification. I don't really get why. The first one only works up to a mile away, which is probably not enough to even reach the next town over in most settings, so, barring the potential loophole mentioned by suplee (which, I don't even know, does empty air count as an "unoccupied space"?), it's not that big a deal, especially considering you have to be able to see where you're teleporting into, so no skipping to the end of a dungeon.

Then the other one let's you teleport up to 100 miles, but only if you've already been there within the past day. So good for backtracking, but doesn't help with forward progress, and useless if the party's been plane shifted.

Also, they're both only 1/day, and at high enough level that someone in the party can probably already cast Teleport. They seem pretty reasonable to me.

[Moxxmix]

TEN bonus spells known for a Sorcerer? That's huge. None of the other Sorcerous origins grant spells known...only spells that you may choose. The rest looks OK, but probably superior to Draconic Sorc. The bonus spells Known simply blows everything else out of the water though.

The original playtest Storm Sorcerer also got 10 free spells. Then the spells were removed, and the published version is considered the weakest sorcerer subclass. Put the spells back, and it's honestly not that bad. The only real problem with it was that it made the PHB subclasses look bad (partly because the PHB subclasses have other problems that compound the lack of spells). For some reason they decided they didn't want to skew things too strongly away from the PHB sorcerer subclasses, but still left the Hexblade in...

Regardless, it looks like they're taking another look at the idea that they played with back then, in granting more bonus spells known. From the original Storm Sorcerer, to the Giant Soul, to this latest one, it seems that they keep trying to see how much headroom they have to work with in terms of dealing with one of the most significant irritations of the sorcerer class.

[Kane0]

Yeah, instead of just fixing the damn problem. Same thing that happened with the Hexblade.

[suplee215]

Check out the hostile use of Plane Shift.

that doesn't instant kill though. Just a reason for them to return stronger. Sure, at high level anything is possible I just never seen a way to what I thought was an automatic one shot. Then again i realzed one will not be able to survive as easily as I thought either and also the cap of 20d6 is not as impressive. gut reaction is that as a DM I will have to find some way to tell my players to stop abusing this.

[RickAllison]

Hmm.

mmm...

Yeah there's some neat bits and pieces but feels sort of lacking. Themes have already been covered, I'll probably cannibalize this one for mechanics to use elsewhere too...

The themes have been covered, but not for those classes. We didn't have a psychic or eldritch sorcerer, and we didn't have a water warlock.

[Nhorianscum]

Fighter: “I hit stuff lots.”

You hits real good

[RickAllison]

You hits real good

Technically speaking, their ability to crank out lots of attracks is pretty amazing. A high-level Champion is capable of sustaining four or five attacks per round while healing enough to sustain low-level damage for a long time. Quite literally until they keep over from exhaustion or some special power.

[Kane0]

The themes have been covered, but not for those classes. We didn't have a psychic or eldritch sorcerer, and we didn't have a water warlock.

MMHH did a Kraken warlock, but I don't really want to see the 'experimental' UA giving us things we already have in other forms, we can brew that no problem. We are YEARS into this edition, where's the crazy stuff like Incarnum, ToB, Binding, etc?

[Phhase]

Guys, come on, it literally says "The spell counts as a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn’t count against the number of sorcerer spells you know.These spells can’t be replaced when you gain a level in this class." It's right there.

That said, I find these classes kinda....eh (PASSING NO JUDGEMENT ON BALANCE WITH THIS STATEMENT OR ANY FOLLOWING). Invasive Thoughts and the Psionic Spells are cool, but the rest is kind of boring. And all of Deep Warlock feels kinda bland and uninspired to me. I like the Kraken Warlock on Giger's Wiki more. You get to actually do things with your extra arms, it's not about raw damage. "Grasp of the Deep"? There's no "Grasping" involved. You can only hit and...block? with them. Feels thematically wrong. Unleash the Depths is kind of ok though.

And again, I'm saying that I don't like how narrow and unthematic they feel, NOT that they're not powerful.

I do like the new cantrip though. It's pretty cool. Makes for a good combo starter.

[RickAllison]

MMHH did a Kraken warlock, but I don't really want to see the 'experimental' UA giving us things we already have in other forms, we can brew that no problem. We are YEARS into this edition, where's the crazy stuff like Incarnum, ToB, Binding, etc?

That warlock, based on seeing Lurker of the Depths, was the precursor. Like the Lurker is just the unofficial official version of the Kraken patron. I'd love to see the crazy stuff too, but outright new classes and mechanics are a rare thing for UA. We've got the Sidekicks, Mystic, Artificer, mass combat, what else?

[Rowan Wolf]

We've got the Sidekicks, Mystic, Artificer, mass combat, what else? Lots of wasted effort 'fixing' the ranger then designing to not 'fix' the ranger, and giant sorcerers (with weird power scaling incomparision to the ordning).

[Kane0]

Lots of wasted effort 'fixing' the ranger then designing to not 'fix' the ranger

You may be interested in something I just finished for some other forumites. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?595643-By-request-Workshopping-another-Ranger)

[mistermysterio]

Is it me or is that Warp Reality possibly broken? I am unsure how to change the warding but as I am reading it it is possible to teleport 1 mile straight into the air alongside the enemy who you positon 20 feet below you? and then you can fly starting on your next turn as the guy who failed a charisma save dies. I know at 18th level broken **** is possible but I can feel my players drooling for this possibility. (how much fall damage is 1 mile?)

Fall damage maxes out at 20d6... at level 18 that's not too much (though if it weren't capped, it would be more like 528d6 fall damage haha).

[Tetrasodium]

Not judging (or even thinking about) any possible balance issues that may or may not exist, I kinda like it a good bit. I'm going to grumble about a couple points of fluff though. First is the fact that they don't even mention the word "daelkyr" (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Daelkyr) even though it so heavily ties to them & their creations in so many ways. They talk about a lot of possible sources without going into detail on any but the seven letter word daelkry couldn't fit? The second is "Maybe you were born somewhere tainted by the Far Realm, a planar blot that changed you forever." almost literally describes a manifest zone (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Manifest_zone) from one of a number of possible planes (one of which being Xoriat (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Xoriat) where the Daelkyr are from), yet they use the word "planar blot" instead of "Manifest zone". Sure planar blots could be abit of lore from $setting that is so obscure that a search for d&d "planar blot" (https://www.google.com/search?q=d%26d+%22planar+blot%22&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS859US859&oq=d%26d+%22%22&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j35i39l2j69i65l3.9120j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) results in zero links other than this pdf as of the time of this posting. Meanwhile d&d "manifest zone" (https://www.google.com/search?q=d%26d+%22manifest+zone%22&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS859US859&oq=d%26d+%22manifest+zone%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.13262j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) 2,570. There's no reason to bend over backwards like this to purge any references to eberron & it's norms from content & it has long been a problem during the 5e years in core books.

[Dork_Forge]

Not judging (or even thinking about) any possible balance issues that may or may not exist, I kinda like it a good bit. I'm going to grumble about a couple points of fluff though. First is the fact that they don't even mention the word "daelkyr" (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Daelkyr) even though it so heavily ties to them & their creations in so many ways. They talk about a lot of possible sources without going into detail on any but the seven letter word daelkry couldn't fit? The second is "Maybe you were born somewhere tainted by the Far Realm, a planar blot that changed you forever." almost literally describes a manifest zone (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Manifest_zone) from one of a number of possible planes (one of which being Xoriat (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Xoriat) where the Daelkyr are from), yet they use the word "planar blot" instead of "Manifest zone". Sure planar blots could be abit of lore from $setting that is so obscure that a search for d&d "planar blot" (https://www.google.com/search?q=d%26d+%22planar+blot%22&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS859US859&oq=d%26d+%22%22&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j35i39l2j69i65l3.9120j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) results in zero links other than this pdf as of the time of this posting. Meanwhile d&d "manifest zone" (https://www.google.com/search?q=d%26d+%22manifest+zone%22&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS859US859&oq=d%26d+%22manifest+zone%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.13262j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) 2,570. There's no reason to bend over backwards like this to purge any references to eberron & it's norms from content & it has long been a problem during the 5e years in core books.

This is playtest material with draft written fluff, these mechanics are also SETTING AGNOSTIC. Please stop finding persecution of Eberron where there is none, they're releasing an entire Eberron book this year for petes sake.

[AdAstra]

While the sorcerer's extra spells are a lot, I think it's worth pointing out that none of them are exactly world-beaters. About half is utility, and the combat spells are okay at best. Dissonant Whispers might be the best thing on that list. A good indicator here is to ask whether you would ever take these spells (for anything other than theme) if they were merely available to you. I know I probably wouldn't except for DW.
If anything, the stronger ability is being able to use sorcery points to cast directly at low cost. Even with the spell restriction, Dissonant Whispers can do a lot of work for one sorcery point. Also, the no-components aspect means that combined with Subtle Spell, you can cast any of those spells without doing anything. Can cast a spell while deprived of components, gagged, and chained to the wall. Mostly just a cool feature rather than anything too strong, but something worth noting.

The warlock seems on the strong side, but honestly it's about where a warlock subclass should be (I find the PHB subclasses disappointing), and gives them more abilities to throw around other than their highly limited spell slots. Combat-wise, I think it actually solves one of the Warlock's big problems, having enough different resources to use. It's probably stronger than PHB warlocks, but nowhere near as much as Hexblade, while being more interesting.

Mind Sliver seems just a little strong, and will definitely combine well with Quicken. While it's slightly harder to utilize than Vicious Mockery, it has none of the restrictions, targets a generally-weaker save, does more damage, and messing with one attack is usually going to be less impactful than messing with a saving throw. It's definitely cool, though.

[Tetrasodium]

This is playtest material with draft written fluff, these mechanics are also SETTING AGNOSTIC. Please stop finding persecution of Eberron where there is none, they're releasing an entire Eberron book this year for petes sake.

Wotc loves to say they listen to feedback. A draft seems like a great time to give feedback. or does that feedback only apply when it is in relation to the Forgotten realms? There are plenty of people at wotc who admit eberron is not their strong suit, and that's fine, but there was clear & obvious inspiration drawn from eberron with these, suggesting they some of the terminology related to it right is more than reasonable. Setting agnostic is one thing, but dropping references to one and only one setting is a different problem entirely. You only need to look at phb24 for one of the most obnoxious examples in the core books. On the topic of UA classes & archtypes specifically... the first few artificer attempts were designed to fit A:Ravinica, & B: lantan; they were widely reviled with very little that people liked about them. When they cut that out & started building artificer for the setting that birthed it as a class that exists as a significant part of the world, the feedback became positive because the classes themselves were interesting & well thought out even with some rough edges & incomplete bits

[RickAllison]

If anything, the stronger ability is being able to use sorcery points to cast directly at low cost. Even with the spell restriction, Dissonant Whispers can do a lot of work for one sorcery point. Also, the no-components aspect means that combined with Subtle Spell, you can cast any of those spells without doing anything. Can cast a spell while deprived of components, gagged, and chained to the wall. Mostly just a cool feature rather than anything too strong, but something worth noting.

Subtle Spell isn't necessary. Psionic Sorcery doesn't require any components, which is more than just material, it already includes verbal and somatic. The sorcerer casting that way has no visible way of telling they cast a spell.

[Kane0]

While the sorcerer's extra spells are a lot, I think it's worth pointing out that none of them are exactly world-beaters. About half is utility, and the combat spells are okay at best. Dissonant Whispers might be the best thing on that list. A good indicator here is to ask whether you would ever take these spells (for anything other than theme) if they were merely available to you. I know I probably wouldn't except for DW.

Isn't the usual line something like 'but the sorcerer shouldn't have many spells because of MM' ?

Mind you, I've never agreed with that.

[Witty Username]

I am not sure that the Aberrant Mind needs Warped being, it seems out of place with the rest of the abilities, and I don't see the flavor reason. Extra spells are fine if it takes the spot of a class feature instead of being a straight add on like it is here, I think for a psionic character, there are alot of non-psionic things going on and would prefer more mind control things but mechanically it is fine. overall I think the subclass is fine, maybe slightly overtuned. I would cut warped being.

I think that the warlock is fine as is, it may be somewhat powerful at 1st-4th level where grasp of the deep is most relevant but overpowered at low level may be the warlocks shtick at this point. Devouring maw might actually be a little weak, strength save to break and that being the only thing keeping an enemy in the area. Unleash the depths is funny if you use it for travel, and alright if used for damage I think. Flavor is on point with this one, I don't think I would change anything.


the cantrip is fine, damage is low, save problems are a thing but I think most of us lead with our save or suck spells then cantrips not the other way around.

[Kane0]

the cantrip is fine, damage is low, save problems are a thing but I think most of us lead with our save or suck spells then cantrips not the other way around.

Reckon it should be d4 damage considering Vicious Mockery.

[Tetrasodium]

Isn't the usual line something like 'but the sorcerer shouldn't have many spells because of MM' ?

Mind you, I've never agreed with that.

There are many many reasons to think that these might show up in an eberron book. Keith Baker has long advocated adding certain spells to class lists that were relevant to dragonmarks way back in 3.5 & ading ritual tags to stuff in 4e. More than one eberron supplement made by the community has either expanded spell lists or adds some flavor of ritual ta to a bunch of spells that are not already ritual. It's entirely possible that this sorc gets a bunch of utility type spells as people noted and wizards get a nice big list of spells that are now some flavor of ritual and/or totally new spells that are ritual. I'm not sure that I'e ever seen a player cast a significant chunk if not a majority of those spells and allow more than one to be ritually cast at my table.

Yes there are bunch of utility spells, byt they are all tghtly arranged around a central theme.

[Kane0]

Yes there are bunch of utility spells, byt they are all tghtly arranged around a central theme.

...Yet draconic sorcerers get no bonus spells. Even if they are all utility bar one or two, that is still one or two more than the others.

It's one of those little things that really grinds my gears, trying to fix around a problem.

[rlc]

Warped Being should do something else.
Other than that, this all looks fun and flavorful.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Reckon it should be d4 damage considering Vicious Mockery.

I'd consider the disadvantage on attack rolls portion of Vicious Mockery to be a larger impact (if we assume that (dis)advantage is roughly +/- 5 as I've heard), the only issue is that Wisdom saves are definitely more common than Intelligence saves, so Mind Sliver is probably going to succeed more often.

It would take some testing to see how impactful the subtracted 1d4 from a saving throw actually ends up being. To guarantee that it combos with your own spells you'd probably need to be a Sorcerer, there aren't a lot of bonus action saving throw spells. More than likely it's going to be your allies capitalizing on the effect unless you explicitly direct them not to target that creature with a saving throw effect.

If it turns out that the bonus effect is hugely impactful and easily capitalized on I'd say that a downgrade to 1d4 is more than called for.

[Kane0]

I'd consider the disadvantage on attack rolls portion of Vicious Mockery to be a larger impact (if we assume that (dis)advantage is roughly +/- 5 as I've heard), the only issue is that Wisdom saves are definitely more common than Intelligence saves, so Mind Sliver is probably going to succeed more often.

It would take some testing to see how impactful the subtracted 1d4 from a saving throw actually ends up being. To guarantee that it combos with your own spells you'd probably need to be a Sorcerer, there aren't a lot of bonus action saving throw spells. More than likely it's going to be your allies capitalizing on the effect unless you explicitly direct them not to target that creature with a saving throw effect.

If it turns out that the bonus effect is hugely impactful and easily capitalized on I'd say that a downgrade to 1d4 is more than called for.

Vicious Mockery is one attack, typically less impactful than one save. Int is also generally a lower save than Wis, and the penalty can stack with Disadvantage. They both have the same casting time, range and components so between the two Mind Sliver is notably stronger.

[Tetrasodium]

...Yet draconic sorcerers get no bonus spells. Even if they are all utility bar one or two, that is still one or two more than the others.

It's one of those little things that really grinds my gears, trying to fix around a problem.

Draconic sorc gets some pretty significant benefits, +1 HP/level & +charisma to spells of an element they choose. since both get 13+dex that part is even (but I'm not comparing the wording & may have overlooked something).

[Fnissalot]

Vicious Mockery is one attack, typically less impactful than one save. Int is also generally a lower save than Wis, and the penalty can stack with Disadvantage. They both have the same casting time, range and components so between the two Mind Sliver is notably stronger.

Vicious mockery is a bard spell and Bard, druids, and clerics have had less impactful cantrips over all compared to warlocks, sorcerers, and wizards. As long as they don't add it to the Bard spell list, I would be fine with a d6 on it.


Subtle Spell isn't necessary. Psionic Sorcery doesn't require any components, which is more than just material, it already includes verbal and somatic. The sorcerer casting that way has no visible way of telling they cast a spell.

That is probably the best part about the new sorc subclass. The spell list isn't great even if it is longer than usual. Being able to cast them in secret so they cannot be counterspelled is nice but not broken.

I think these subclasses are at a better balance level than some earlier UA subclasses have been without naming anything.

[Kane0]

Okay then, Frostbite.

Edit: Sorry, that might sound a bit passive-aggressive. Valid points raised, but it's still just power creep and easily spotted at that, i'm a little annoyed that it wasn't picked up on before it even hit this stage.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Vicious Mockery is one attack, typically less impactful than one save. Int is also generally a lower save than Wis, and the penalty can stack with Disadvantage. They both have the same casting time, range and components so between the two Mind Sliver is notably stronger.

I say it needs some testing because (in my experience) enemies make more attack rolls than they do saving throws. For 2 of the 3 classes that gain this spell you can't combo it with your own spells on the same turn. You can obviously coordinate this with a teammate but it's possible that you, possibly as one of few or the only spellcaster, have a more desirable effects to combo it with.

I'd rather see how likely it is that this spells rider works all the time or just some of the time. Like I said, if the rider is reliable then 1d4 is probably more correct.

And to be clear, I'm assuming that the rider will be reliable, I just have an inclination towards taking care to test before calling for a blanket nerf.

[Sindal]

Well.

If this exists, then I feel vindicated giving sorcerers slightly more spells in my games (I let them pick a spell and make it into their bound spell. Takes the effort of drumming up a list for each subclass out. They can decide what they got from their 'bloodline')

[Fnissalot]

Okay then, Frostbite.

Edit: Sorry, that might sound a bit passive-aggressive. Valid points raised, but it's still just power creep and easily spotted at that, i'm a little annoyed that it wasn't picked up on before it even hit this stage.

Frostbite (FB); con-save; d6 cold damage; rider disadv. 1 attack. (non-bard?)
Vicious mockery (VM); wis-save; d4 psychic damage; rider disadv. 1 attack. (bard)
Mind Sliver (MS); int-save; d6 psychic damage; rider -1d4 next save. (wiz,warl, sorc)

MS has the best save, FB the worst. I think the extra damage with a worse save (and maybe a worse element) balance VM and FB out.

Disadvantage should be better than -1d4 in most cases if they were on the same type of roll, but I would rather be missing 1 attack than failing a saving throw. MS can possibly be stacked with disadv. to make sure the next save is not saved.

[Vorpalchicken]

I am going to take the opposite view of many here. I don't think the subclasses are overly powerful but I think that cantrrip could become a problem, especially when used by Sorcerers- casting Mind Sliver right before a quickened save/suck all the damn time.

I must say I was waiting for a psionic sorcerer; I feel it's the class that is best suited to the task (since the Mystic class-unto-itself can't seem to come together without being an overpowered mess.)

The warlock here seems to be stepping on the toes of the Goolock while being unsatisfying at the same time. Not too excited about it. Maybe it has its appeal among a certain unmentionable tentacle fancying demographic.

[Citadel97501]

The only thing I am concerned about is the lightning damage of that warlock tentacle being available to a Tempest Cleric. This would make an obscenely powerful movement control caster. It is a bit MAD, but this is damn scary for anything trying to close distance...

Deep Warlock & Tempest Cleric

Actions: 2 x Eldritch Blasts either move them 10' closer or 10' away (Call Lighting or lightning bolt maximized is also strong...)
Bonus action: Attacks that knock people away 10' and then slow them down.
Concentration Spell Casting: All the other concentration Cleric or Warlock shenanigans is still there as your not even spending spell slots...
Reaction: Can use these to reduce damage from someone finally able to close with you to 1/2...

Note: Gaseous Form might actually be useful with this due to the 1/4 damage...but your trading your spells for just the tentacles of doom...

[ATHATH]

I'd just like to point out that the Mind Sliver cantrip's effect lasts until the END of your next turn (although it only applies to the first saving throw made before the end of your next turn), so you can cast Mind Sliver on turn 1 (along with, say, a bonus action spell like Spiritual Weapon) of a combat and then cast your save or suck spell on turn 2 of that combat and get the Mind Sliver save debuff for that spell. I'd also like to point out that if you cast Mind Sliver two turns in a row (and your target doesn't make any saving throws before you can cast your second Mind Sliver), you can get the debuff to apply to the saving throw against the second Mind Sliver you cast. It's not much, but if you have a boost to cantrip damage or something, perhaps it might be worth a look at as a ""blasting"" cantrip? Eh, that's probably a crazy idea. Still, Mind Sliver looks pretty darn good.

[Reynaerde]

I'm going to grumble about a couple points of fluff though. First is the fact that they don't even mention the word "daelkyr" (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Daelkyr) even though it so heavily ties to them & their creations in so many ways.To me, it feels more likely that both the Daelkyr and these subclasses share a common Lovecraftian inspiration source than the latter being tied to the former.


Even with the spell restriction, Dissonant Whispers can do a lot of work for one sorcery point.Yeah and I'm not quite sure how I feel about this subclass becoming the best caster of this spell. On the one hand, I think it takes away a bit from the bard, on the other hand, this does allow for new kinds of Dissonant Whispers + War Caster tricks I could add to my Dissonant Whispers mini guide, hahaha...

[Fnissalot]

(...)
The warlock here seems to be stepping on the toes of the Goo-lock while being unsatisfying at the same time. Not too excited about it. Maybe it has its appeal among a certain unmentionable tentacle fancying demographic.

I, personally, think it is fine. One is thematically about cosmic horror and mechanically about madness and mind shenanigans. The new one is thematically about monsters like kraken and scylla, tentacles and all, and mechanically about summoning these in different ways.

I would not run Cthulhu as this new patron. With the exception of having tentacles in the face, Cthulhu is about dreams of madness and spreading insanity.

The new one fits much better with beings like scylla, kraken, charybdis, Leviathan, hydras?, the sunken captain from the pirates of the Caribbean movies, jörmungandr, and maybe even demogorgon.


Edit: I am personally more and more tempted to homerule to give the aberrant mind sorc disadvantage on persuasion and deception, and advantage on intimidation skill checks. No one should trust a slime person with gills. This sorc is beginning to look a lot like fishmen...

[Makorel]

Real late night thoughts since I only realized this UA existed at 1 AM:

I'm liking Mind Sliver for softening targets against saving throws, which has been pretty hard to do in this system historically. Best users are probably Shadow or Wild Magic Sorcerer. I don't know which. I guess it depends on if you want that one save to go through with Bend Luck or if you're using bad vibes doggo to induce disadvantage on an ongoing spell that allows for multiple saves.

The flavor for the Warlock is kinda weird (Isn't this just GOO 2: Under the Sea Edition?) but I like the idea of bonus action tentacle because it gives Warlock some more damage output they can do with their bonus action so they don't regret not going immediately into Sorcerer for Quickened spells. The only thing is 30 feet of range seems really tiny for a Warlock that's not bladelockin' and I don't think it would be a big deal if they gave it a range similar to Eldritch Blast.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Edit: I am personally more and more tempted to homerule to give the aberrant mind sorc disadvantage on persuasion and deception, and advantage on intimidation skill checks. No one should trust a slime person with gills. This sorc is beginning to look a lot like fishmen...

They're not forced to have any outward showing changes, the Warped Being feature allows anything from scales (which are not all that rare in DND) to a literally invisible barrier. The 14th level feature is also optional, it doesn't affect them the whole time. You might get a small sense that they're "creepy" or "strange" when they use their abilities or they might start oozing purple stuff and growing tentacles out of their eyes. The current design seems to like the idea that you don't have to embellish it.

You'd have to go on a case by case basis with that sort of change unless the ability to make it subtle is taken out of the flavoring.

For example, I had been running a one shot with a Spores Druid. You're not forced to do anything for the Spores Druids appearance by default but the player requested to be regarded as an 8ft tall lizard person that smelled like a sewer and grew "things" on them. It ended up affecting their ability to be social and they enjoyed that.

[Tetrasodium]

To me, it feels more likely that both the Daelkyr and these subclasses share a common Lovecraftian inspiration source than the latter being tied to the former.

Yeah and I'm not quite sure how I feel about this subclass becoming the best caster of this spell. On the one hand, I think it takes away a bit from the bard, on the other hand, this does allow for new kinds of Dissonant Whispers + War Caster tricks I could add to my Dissonant Whispers mini guide, hahaha...

No, not even close. Dolgaunt & dolgrim are two of the eberron specific daelkyr creations since the original ECS & they got various bits fleshed out over time in the 3,5 days but here's a section from 4e ecg

FOULSPAWN
Some of Eberron's most nightmarish and repulsive monsters wcre crafted by the daelkyr. As t he lords of Xoriat invaded Eberron. they twisted and corrupted
the races they conquered. shaping them into forms more pleasing to their maddened eyes.
Of these. perhaps the most infamous are the twisted corruptions known as foulspawn. These terrors prefer to work with one another. but sometimes serve as leaders of lesser aberrations. or as soldiers serving more potent masters such as mind flayers.
some irrelevant dc x history stuff]
Dolgaunts are grim. emaciated humanoids with disease-hued flesh. Their eye sockets gape. open and empty, above a mouth with a protruding, wormlike tongue. Writhing cilia cover their bodies. with longer tendrils around their heads: two wiry tentacles protrude from their bare shoulders.
Tactics
Graceful and swift. dolgaunt monks prefer to take advantage of their reach. using their tentacles to slide foes around or to grasp and drain the life from them.


Beholders have always been one of the daelkyr creations since the original ECS , that second revelation in flesh option looks a lot like a beholder's hover ability but bumped to be useful for PC's...

These aren't the only similarities, just the easiest & briefest ones to get across.... For example: Mind flayers are also listed as one of the daelkyr creations since the original ECS, look at all that psionic/psychic mind meddling stuff & think about mind flayers for a few seconds.


Yes many of the daelkyr creations (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Daelkyr_creations) have notable lovecraftian look to them; but the similarities go too deeply into too many of the class abilities & spell lists to say that it's generic lovecraftian inspiration to this UA instead of just admitting there are roots to eberron's lore.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I like the concepts of both these archetypes, but a couple of things need to be dialed down a notch:


Ten bonus spells is probably too many for the sorcerer; five would likely have been enough.

This is the only warlock patron I've seen with an offensive feature at 10th level; all the others get something defensive at 10th. The 1st level feature also gets a damage boost at 10th level. Seems like overkill.

[Wildarm]

Really love the flavor of the Sorcerer subclass. Could see some pretty awesome builds using it. Changeling in particular seems like a fantastic fit. Expertise in thief tools, advantage on deception, tons of social manipulation tools like detect thoughts, telepathy, modifying memories, and calm emotions that all require no outward signs of casting.

For combat you have a lowish AC but can dash in and spam dissonant whispers. For 1 sorcery point it's very cheap to cast every round if you like chewing up higher spell slots as needed. Combine with warcaster and booming blade AoO for extra fun.

At 6th level you have potentially 25 castings available per day. If your group is pretty co-ordinated, I would expect your melee units could surround someone and generate at least 2 attacks off the spell. Add in your own booming blade AoO and the target is stranded or taking extra damage when they move on their turn. Pretty big action economy spike to turn your front liners reactions into attacks each round and for your foe to move 30' away and then take damage if they want to come back.

Potential issues build - You either need to dip hexblade to use Cha on attacks and booming blade. Or you need to use some other save cantrip in melee(Poison Spray, Chill Touch, Frostbite, Mind Sliver). Investing in Dex would let you use booming blade as well. Not bad but CHA takes priority and you need warcaster so it would be later in the build.

[Zhorn]

I usually avoid the UA subclasses for the games I run, but that sorcerer subclass has me interested.

[Reynaerde]

These aren't the only similarities, just the easiest & briefest ones to get across....I'm sorry, but those highlighted words are all very much generic Lovecraftian tropes, down to the cilia you will find all over At the Mountains of Madness. And your argument about Mindflayers isn't really convincing me either, I'm afraid. That monster is the epitome of Lovecraft's impact on classic D&D monster design (in this case channeled through the work of Lumley). The Beholder is a bit more original, but it also predates Eberron by 29 years.

That being said, I wasn't actually saying you were wrong, just that I had a different perspective. Maybe certain elements of Eberron were directly used for inspiration. Even then, I consider it the designers' job to present this kind of UA stuff as setting neutral as possible, since it will have to see playtesting in more than one kind of setting.


For combat you have a lowish AC but can dash in and spam dissonant whispers. For 1 sorcery point it's very cheap to cast every round if you like chewing up higher spell slots as needed. Combine with warcaster and booming blade AoO for extra fun.Too bad none of the other psionic spells are single target attacks you could use with war caster, although the sorcerer does already have access to things like suggestion, enemies abound or banishment. The new cantrip fits the bill as well, doing some extra psychic damage and setting you up for another successful dissonant whispers in the next round.

[CheddarChampion]

Devouring Maw doesn't use concentration, but I think it should.
Plenty of spells that do repeated damage in an area to combo with it. A sorlock could quicken a spell then activate the maw...

Or a single class warlock could cast hex, activate the law turn one, then for one minute go with eldritch blast plus grasp of the deep.

Turn one damage: 4d6 (plus CC)
Later damage per turn at 20 Cha: 2d10+2d8+7d6+10 (or 54.5) at level 10,
3d10+2d8+8d6+15 (or 68.5) at level 11.

Again this is per turn, while they are restrained and have to use their actions to attempt escape.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

I like the warlock subclass, but I feel like the Sorcerer one needs a lot of work. It's fairly powerful, and the added spells are neat (and should be a part of every sorcerer subclass IMO) but it doesn't really seem to do anything unique to the subclass until 14th level, which most groups don't play to. The lower level abilities are all a mish mash of stuff that other sorcerer (draconic) or warlock (GOO) subclasses can already do. The main "unique" element is more spells, but that just doesn't feel like enough to differentiate it as its own unique thing, as other classes can cast all those spells; there's nothing really specifically unique and interesting about it.

They should rework the level 14 ability to make it start at level 1, maybe gaining more options over time, so that the subclass has its own niche from earlier on.

[Wildarm]

I like the warlock subclass, but I feel like the Sorcerer one needs a lot of work. It's fairly powerful, and the added spells are neat (and should be a part of every sorcerer subclass IMO) but it doesn't really seem to do anything unique to the subclass until 14th level, which most groups don't play to. The lower level abilities are all a mish mash of stuff that other sorcerer (draconic) or warlock (GOO) subclasses can already do. The main "unique" element is more spells, but that just doesn't feel like enough to differentiate it as its own unique thing, as other classes can cast all those spells; there's nothing really specifically unique and interesting about it.

They should rework the level 14 ability to make it start at level 1, maybe gaining more options over time, so that the subclass has its own niche from earlier on.

Being able to cast your unique spell list via sorcery points is pretty fantastic. To be honest, I would love to see this type of feature included in all of the sorcerer subclasses. Adding 5+ subclass theme appropriate spells that you can more easily/cheaply cast using your innate magic is a perfect fit for the theme of the class and solves one of the biggest difficulties with the class - Fewer spells per day and too few spells known compared to wizards.

For WOTC, adding a half feat for each of the published subclasses with this would be the best "fix" for the sorcerer class I can think of. +1 Cha, 5 spells added to your spells known, can cast them with sorcerer points at the discounted rate, prereq: Specific Sorcerer Subclass. This makes it something any of the +2 CHA races can add in at level 4 without skipping a beat in their normal stat progression. I think I'm going to offer a homebrew feat like this to the next player I have looking to make a sorcerer.

[Spiritchaser]

While the sorcerer's extra spells are a lot, I think it's worth pointing out that none of them are exactly world-beaters.

I both do, and don’t agree with your post...

In the sense that this is not a list of super strong spells, certainly I’d agree.

But look at the role that a few of those selections allow you to fill.

There’s a solid mid level Dex save crowd control (not many mid level Dex CC spells are there!) in Evard’s tentacles... then that the Dex save is followed by a strength or Dex CHECK (no save bonuses) to escape. It is especially interesting if you just happened to have a way to penalize that first save on an especially difficult target, or perhaps to guarantee success on that save for friendlies in that area... though obvious problems with subsequent friendly saves are obvious.

Compulsion is a less than perfect wis save multitarget CC, but it’s likely good enough to fill that important wis save CC slot.

Dissonant whispers can be your ST wis save CC...

As a sorcerer you can seldom choose to be good at more than 2 things.

With this list you can be good at any two, AND you can also be fair to good at crowd control. Invest a slot or two more and you could be really solid.

I’d argue that increasing the versatility of a sorcerer in this way is a pretty big deal.

[Imbalance]

I dunno about balance, but the psionic sorcerer and that cantrip are exactly the flavor I wanted to play when I started this game.

[Fnissalot]

Being able to cast your unique spell list via sorcery points is pretty fantastic. To be honest, I would love to see this type of feature included in all of the sorcerer subclasses. Adding 5+ subclass theme appropriate spells that you can more easily/cheaply cast using your innate magic is a perfect fit for the theme of the class and solves one of the biggest difficulties with the class - Fewer spells per day and too few spells known compared to wizards.

For WOTC, adding a half feat for each of the published subclasses with this would be the best "fix" for the sorcerer class I can think of. +1 Cha, 5 spells added to your spells known, can cast them with sorcerer points at the discounted rate, prereq: Specific Sorcerer Subclass. This makes it something any of the +2 CHA races can add in at level 4 without skipping a beat in their normal stat progression. I think I'm going to offer a homebrew feat like this to the next player I have looking to make a sorcerer.

Time to Homebrew a sorcerer with this built in for all subclasses. I guess this will be my project for the weekend.

[Dessunri]

Is it me or is that Warp Reality possibly broken? I am unsure how to change the warding but as I am reading it it is possible to teleport 1 mile straight into the air alongside the enemy who you positon 20 feet below you? and then you can fly starting on your next turn as the guy who failed a charisma save dies. I know at 18th level broken **** is possible but I can feel my players drooling for this possibility. (how much fall damage is 1 mile?)

I don't remember the exact number and I don't have my DMG near me; but, I seem to remember that there is a cap on fall damage. Something like 200 feet so 20d6? That's still a lot of damage but at 18th level may not outright kill a full health enemy. Average damage would be 70.

[jaappleton]

A note on Devouring Maw:

It deals Lightning or Cold.
You have resistance to Cold at lv6.
Devouring Maw grants temp HP equal to your level when there's a creature in its area.
Via Ravnica backgrounds, you can get Spirit Guardians as a Warlock.

Turn 1: Devouring Maw
Turn 2: Spirit Guardians
Your resistance to cold offsets the damage taken by the Maw, and you're dealing 3d6 Cold + 5d8 Radiant/Necrotic to everything around you, and you still get your action on subsequent turns.

(I told Dan Dillon about this, he made a note DM's temp HP needs to alter to 'hostile creatures')

[AdAstra]

I both do, and don’t agree with your post...

In the sense that this is not a list of super strong spells, certainly I’d agree.

But look at the role that a few of those selections allow you to fill.

There’s a solid mid level Dex save crowd control (not many mid level Dex CC spells are there!) in Evard’s tentacles... then that the Dex save is followed by a strength or Dex CHECK (no save bonuses) to escape. It is especially interesting if you just happened to have a way to penalize that first save on an especially difficult target, or perhaps to guarantee success on that save for friendlies in that area... though obvious problems with subsequent friendly saves are obvious.

Compulsion is a less than perfect wis save multitarget CC, but it’s likely good enough to fill that important wis save CC slot.

Dissonant whispers can be your ST wis save CC...

As a sorcerer you can seldom choose to be good at more than 2 things.

With this list you can be good at any two, AND you can also be fair to good at crowd control. Invest a slot or two more and you could be really solid.

I’d argue that increasing the versatility of a sorcerer in this way is a pretty big deal.

It’s definitely a big deal, and like some earlier posters I think that it could afford to drop the AC buff and maybe reduce the extra spells to 1 per spell level, but I do not feel evard’s or compulsion to be all that strong. Evard’s is effectively a continuous Entangle that allows more types of saves and deals damage. That’s good, but entangle is a 1st level spell and unless you have a way of forcing people into the tentacles, you’re very unlikely to force additional saves (note you cannot use DW or Compulsion for this). Compulsion has an interesting effect, but not one that’s really worth the slot/points. There are some things you could do to reduce the effect, like grappling, and you have to get really close to the enemy to attempt it, leaving you highly vulnerable to enemies that succeed on the save. They’re decent backups, but that makes sense. Plus sorcerers suffer from enough spell crunch that I think this is a decent solution. This doesn’t really give you much outside or better than your existing toolset, it just covers your bases better and allows you to focus on other areas.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm sorry, but those highlighted words are all very much generic Lovecraftian tropes, down to the cilia you will find all over At the Mountains of Madness. And your argument about Mindflayers isn't really convincing me either, I'm afraid. That monster is the epitome of Lovecraft's impact on classic D&D monster design (in this case channeled through the work of Lumley). The Beholder is a bit more original, but it also predates Eberron by 29 years.

That being said, I wasn't actually saying you were wrong, just that I had a different perspective. Maybe certain elements of Eberron were directly used for inspiration. Even then, I consider it the designers' job to present this kind of UA stuff as setting neutral as possible, since it will have to see playtesting in more than one kind of setting.



Let me guess, the massive amount of fr & fr compatible stuff baked into so much of the core books is a shining example of that setting neutral presentation?

[MaxWilson]

It’s definitely a big deal, and like some earlier posters I think that it could afford to drop the AC buff and maybe reduce the extra spells to 1 per spell level, but I do not feel evard’s or compulsion to be all that strong. Evard’s is effectively a continuous Entangle that allows more types of saves and deals damage.

Quite a lot of damage in fact--almost as much as Fireball even on the first round.

Failed save vs. Fireball: take 8d6 damage immediately.
Failed save vs. Evard's Black Tentacles: take 3d6 damage immediately, another 3d6 at the start of your next turn before you get to do anything (6d6 in one round), and 3d6 at the start of every turn after that. No automatic re-saves every turn, you have to waste a whole action to even ATTEMPT to get free. Meanwhile you can't move and have disadvantage on your attacks, and everyone has advantage against you.

Speaking as a DM who's seen Evard's Black Tentacles turn what looked like a sure TPK into a victory for the PCs, that spell is quite annoying strong.

Fireball has a much better AoE though.

[Reynaerde]

Let me guess, the massive amount of fr & fr compatible stuff baked into so much of the core books is a shining example of that setting neutral presentation?You would be guessing wrong. You seem to be under the impression that those who don't agree with you are somehow automatically anti-Eberron and pro-Realms, but you are wrong. I don't like Forgotten Realms much at all and I think Eberron is one of the coolest settings out there, but that doesn't change my personal opinion that I think this kind of material works best if it is setting neutral (nor my opinion that the inspiration for this seems more generic Lovecraftian than anything else).

Either way, it's good stuff to add to an Eberron campaign right? Let's just rejoice in that knowledge.

[Spiritchaser]

It’s definitely a big deal, and like some earlier posters I think that it could afford to drop the AC buff and maybe reduce the extra spells to 1 per spell level, but I do not feel evard’s or compulsion to be all that strong. Evard’s is effectively a continuous Entangle that allows more types of saves and deals damage. That’s good, but entangle is a 1st level spell and unless you have a way of forcing people into the tentacles, you’re very unlikely to force additional saves (note you cannot use DW or Compulsion for this). Compulsion has an interesting effect, but not one that’s really worth the slot/points. There are some things you could do to reduce the effect, like grappling, and you have to get really close to the enemy to attempt it, leaving you highly vulnerable to enemies that succeed on the save. They’re decent backups, but that makes sense. Plus sorcerers suffer from enough spell crunch that I think this is a decent solution. This doesn’t really give you much outside or better than your existing toolset, it just covers your bases better and allows you to focus on other areas.

The big thing evard’s has over entangle is that evard’s starts with a Dex save. Unlike PCs this is often a vulnerability for monsters... even some pretty scary ones. If you are remotely interested in control then you WILL have a wis save AoE CC... you’ll have compulsion if nothing else... it’s much harder to have that Dex save CC at this level, which makes this spell fill a very useful role. Yes the subsequent check can be either, but again, it’s a check so no save bonus.

An immobilization obviously isn’t as good as a hold, particularly in an open field... but you’re often not in an open field, and will be able to selectively LoS some foes... cutting the incoming damage from anything that can’t see you, even if they have a ranged attack.

And hey, even in an open field some foes are melee... and you’re really only a minor illusion away from full cover against foes that cannot move.

If you have a Dex save CC and a wis save CC you’re doing pretty well.

[Luccan]

I don't know why they insist on giving playtest Sorcerers bonus spells. Based on Storm, we know they probably won't keep it and based on Ranger we know they won't give previous Sorcerers the same treatment even if it is kept. Seems odd to release it in a state where it seems unlikely such a thing will stick.

[Tetrasodium]

You would be guessing wrong. You seem to be under the impression that those who don't agree with you are somehow automatically anti-Eberron and pro-Realms, but you are wrong. I don't like Forgotten Realms much at all and I think Eberron is one of the coolest settings out there, but that doesn't change my personal opinion that I think this kind of material works best if it is setting neutral (nor my opinion that the inspiration for this seems more generic Lovecraftian than anything else).

Either way, it's good stuff to add to an Eberron campaign right? Let's just rejoice in that knowledge.

Problem being that the damage is done, the cutout on xge18 is an example of fixing a particularly egregious example of that from dmg 10-13 or a more nebulous section of the player facing phb. The mere mention of things from eberron alongside things from other settings that are already mentioned does not suddenly make it no longer setting neutral; but it means that we don't one day have a chapter in 5.5e or 6e devoted to planar blots in Toril that forgets to mention that eberron has always had manifest zones or that pretends eberron's manifest zones are the same as these totally new planar blots bound up in layers of FR's lore. Sometimes setting neutrality requires admitting that settings & thing from them exist even if they don't really exist in either the forgotten realms or planescape. the Tortle is a great example of that first point& that cutout/sidebar the second

[Pex]

Maximized healing when someone's dropped to 0 HP is ridiculous, and previously negating crits was the domain of magic items.

Cavalier gets nigh infinite reactions, which with the right build gets crazy. Cavalier is a huge part of why I stopped allowing feats at my table.

That doesn't make sense. You don't like a subclass so your solution is to ban feats? Why punish everyone else depriving them of feats and just ban the subclass?

In any case, no, I have no issue whatsoever with Hexblade, Grave Cleric, or Cavalier. They're quite fine subclasses to be played and have been played in games I'm in without any problems.

[Dork_Forge]

Problem being that the damage is done, the cutout on xge18 is an example of fixing a particularly egregious example of that from dmg 10-13 or a more nebulous section of the player facing phb. The mere mention of things from eberron alongside things from other settings that are already mentioned does not suddenly make it no longer setting neutral; but it means that we don't one day have a chapter in 5.5e or 6e devoted to planar blots in Toril that forgets to mention that eberron has always had manifest zones or that pretends eberron's manifest zones are the same as these totally new planar blots bound up in layers of FR's lore. Sometimes setting neutrality requires admitting that settings & thing from them exist even if they don't really exist in either the forgotten realms or planescape. the Tortle is a great example of that first point& that cutout/sidebar the second

Just for fun, Ctrl F "Eberron" in a pdf of the DMG.

Eberron is mentioned extensively in pretty much every section, they even mention what kind of medal might be awarded in Eberron.

The first mention of the setting for example? The second paragraph of the first page in Chapter 1, it's mentioned 3 times on that page alone.

I think your biggest issue is missing this: "This book (DMG), the Player's Handbook and the Monster Manual present the default assumptions for how the worlds of D&D work. Among the established settings of D&D, the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Mystara don't stray very far from those assumptions. Settings such as Dark Sun, Eberron, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Planescape venture further away from that baseline."

The core rule books work on the assumption of typical D&D, Eberron (among other stated) deliberately do not follow those assumptions and this provides variety. However the place for specifics about those non default assumptions is their own setting books. As it stands there's plenty of mention of Eberron in the core rules, and the upcoming book will bring the details you clearly like.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The core rule books work on the assumption of typical D&D, Eberron (among other stated) deliberately do not follow those assumptions and this provides variety. However the place for specifics about those non default assumptions is their own setting books. As it stands there's plenty of mention of Eberron in the core rules, and the upcoming book will bring the details you clearly like.

Which is why the SCAG book is a grand total of about 154 pages, most of what you need to know about how classes/races work is outlined in the PHB. Crawford states on the most recent dragon+ that Rising from the Last War is nearly 400 pages (or at the very least, as large as the PHB). We also know that Eberron is incredibly different from the PHB's default. Orc, Halflings, Tieflings and Elves are very different.

All of those intricacies that Eberron has would have been done a great disservice if they had tried to sandwich it into the PHB or DMG and called that good enough (although some would argue that is what was done for a long time).

[RickAllison]

Which is why the SCAG book is a grand total of about 154 pages, most of what you need to know about how classes/races work is outlined in the PHB. Crawford states on the most recent dragon+ that Rising from the Last War is nearly 400 pages (or at the very least, as large as the PHB). We also know that Eberron is incredibly different from the PHB's default. Orc, Halflings, Tieflings and Elves are very different.

All of those intricacies that Eberron has would have been done a great disservice if they had tried to sandwich it into the PHB or DMG and called that good enough (although some would argue that is what was done for a long time).

Frankly, having the dedicated setting books (Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron, Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica, even the Plane Shifts) makes so much more sense. We have the general archetypes in the PHB that can fit into most settings. Then SCAG has content more specifically tuned to Forgotten Realms. In a glorious and optimal world, Eberron will release with a finished Artificer class and maybe some other archetypes of existing classes that are thematic (potentially the sorcerer!) to go with the races and other setting content.

[8wGremlin]

Mind Spike is quite nice to pick up for an Arcana Cleric as well, get to add you wis mod to the damage at 8th with Potent Spellcasting

[Nhorianscum]

I don't know why they insist on giving playtest Sorcerers bonus spells. Based on Storm, we know they probably won't keep it and based on Ranger we know they won't give previous Sorcerers the same treatment even if it is kept. Seems odd to release it in a state where it seems unlikely such a thing will stick.

This makes me a sad eldrich abomination every time I remember what they did to stone sorcerer. *pours one out for my stoney homie*

[Pex]

I am going to take the opposite view of many here. I don't think the subclasses are overly powerful but I think that cantrrip could become a problem, especially when used by Sorcerers- casting Mind Sliver right before a quickened save/suck all the damn time.



Or the Sorcerer can use Heightened spell.

[Protolisk]

Or the Sorcerer can use Heightened spell.

Yeah, the correct order would be Quickened Mind Sliver, then Heightened save/suck to hopefully destroy/control/effectively remove the danger from whatever they target.

[Pex]

Yeah, the correct order would be Quickened Mind Sliver, then Heightened save/suck to hopefully destroy/control/effectively remove the danger from whatever they target.

Can't. If you cast a Bonus Action spell your Action spell can only be a Cantrip. The Bonus Action spell can be a Cantrip or level spell, but the Action can only ever be a Cantrip. It's an easily overlooked restriction, and in my opinion unnecessary accepting one of the spells must be a Cantrip to cast two spells in a turn, but that's the rule.

[BarneyBent]

Yeah, the correct order would be Quickened Mind Sliver, then Heightened save/suck to hopefully destroy/control/effectively remove the danger from whatever they target.

Unless that heightened save/suck is a cantrip you can’t pull that off.

[Protolisk]

Can't. If you cast a Bonus Action spell your Action spell can only be a Cantrip. The Bonus Action spell can be a Cantrip or level spell, but the Action can only ever be a Cantrip. It's an easily overlooked restriction, and in my opinion unnecessary accepting one of the spells must be a Cantrip to cast two spells in a turn, but that's the rule.

Whoops, my mistake. I knew there was a limitation on having a bonus action spell, but I thought that the limitation only occurred when you cast a leveled spell on a bonus action that limited your normal action to a cantrip. but nope, on second look its for any spell, which includes a cantrip. Time to go tell the other Dms I play with that we've been reading the rules wrong again.

[ProsecutorGodot]

For those interested (or unaware) D&D Beyond interviewed Crawford on the Sorcerer subclass here (https://youtu.be/ywfgNBVArGI).

They talk over the design choice of why they chose an expanded spell list for this subclass as well as the sorcery point casting. For some reason the interview cuts off mid question though :smallannoyed:.

[BarneyBent]

Whoops, my mistake. I knew there was a limitation on having a bonus action spell, but I thought that the limitation only occurred when you cast a leveled spell on a bonus action that limited your normal action to a cantrip. but nope, on second look its for any spell, which includes a cantrip. Time to go tell the other Dms I play with that we've been reading the rules wrong again.

Honestly it’s a pretty common mistake and makes for a perfectly fine house rule. 1 levelled spell per turn is simpler, more intuitive and hardly unbalanced.

[Kane0]

For those interested (or unaware) D&D Beyond interviewed Crawford on the Sorcerer subclass here (https://youtu.be/ywfgNBVArGI).

They talk over the design choice of why they chose an expanded spell list for this subclass as well as the sorcery point casting. For some reason the interview cuts off mid question though :smallannoyed:.

And many of those comments are saying pretty much the same thing about sorc spells known. Nice to see that we aren't an echo-chamber on that front.

[Reynaerde]

Honestly it’s a pretty common mistake and makes for a perfectly fine house rule. 1 levelled spell per turn is simpler, more intuitive and hardly unbalanced.That is a lot easier to remember, but it would limit something like Dissonant Whispers + War Caster, though, or using Shield when you get hit with an opportunity attack during your turn.

[micahaphone]

Honestly it’s a pretty common mistake and makes for a perfectly fine house rule. 1 levelled spell per turn is simpler, more intuitive and hardly unbalanced.


By RAW couldn't you cast mind sliver as an action, then quicken the leveled spell you want?

It is weird that this would work, but if you quicken the cantrip suddenly it doesn't work

[Quietus]

By RAW couldn't you cast mind sliver as an action, then quicken the leveled spell you want?

It is weird that this would work, but if you quicken the cantrip suddenly it doesn't work

The main difference as it pertains to this, is that now you cannot also Heighten that levelled spell.

[moonfly7]

Looks like psionics is back in business, and without mystic this time. Neat.
This, this.
My table absolutely despises mystic. We feel kinda burned by the mystic, it was broken and annoying(and our DM always did crazy ridiculous metagamey stuff with them). Because of that we had a bad taste in our mouths about psionics.
But let me tell yah: psionic sorcerer isn't only aloud in all of our games now, when I came up with a character idea for it, my DM threatened to kill my current character so he could see it played(he was joking....I hope).
We love the sorcerer point direct casting, the psychic armor, the mind reading, and the entire flavor of the class.
If wizards can make this official content we'd be ecstatic. And if they made more psychic stuff like this, we probably wouldn't mind at all.
I just hope they've learned there lesson 'bout the mystic.

[Dork_Forge]

This, this.
My table absolutely despises mystic. We feel kinda burned by the mystic, it was broken and annoying(and our DM always did crazy ridiculous metagamey stuff with them). Because of that we had a bad taste in our mouths about psionics.
But let me tell yah: psionic sorcerer isn't only aloud in all of our games now, when I came up with a character idea for it, my DM threatened to kill my current character so he could see it played(he was joking....I hope).
We love the sorcerer point direct casting, the psychic armor, the mind reading, and the entire flavor of the class.
If wizards can make this official content we'd be ecstatic. And if they made more psychic stuff like this, we probably wouldn't mind at all.
I just hope they've learned there lesson 'bout the mystic.

Out of curiousity, what didn't your group like about the Mystic? It could lead to some broken multiclassing, but straight it didn't seem too bad (and was rather fun to play).

[RickAllison]

Out of curiousity, what didn't your group like about the Mystic? It could lead to some broken multiclassing, but straight it didn't seem too bad (and was rather fun to play).

I never even got to playtest it in my group because my DM banned it for introducing an entirely new subsystem. Implementing psionics via existing mechanics seems like a much more elegant design.

[Dork_Forge]

I never even got to playtest it in my group because my DM banned it for introducing an entirely new subsystem. Implementing psionics via existing mechanics seems like a much more elegant design.

That's unfortunate, I can understand the barrier to entry and the appeal of reusing spell effects and just making subclasses. I personally found it interesting and rewarding but it can be very confusing at first and some abilities definitely needed to be nerfed. I was hoping to see a polished version being published but c'est la vie.

[micahaphone]

Out of curiousity, what didn't your group like about the Mystic? It could lead to some broken multiclassing, but straight it didn't seem too bad (and was rather fun to play).


If you're careful about how you level up a mystic, you can build a tanky frontline caster who can do melee, ranged blasting, CC, and social tricks, effectively making you the best at most skills/roles in the party.

[Sigreid]

I think they're kind of a neat start. Think the sorcerer getting 10 free spells is too much as their shtick is supposed to be few spells with greater control of those spells. Think the warlock is much more along the lines of what the GOO should have been to begin with.

[Dork_Forge]

If you're careful about how you level up a mystic, you can build a tanky frontline caster who can do melee, ranged blasting, CC, and social tricks, effectively making you the best at most skills/roles in the party.

It's certainly versatile and that is its strength, but I think best at most roles is incorrect. They don't have expertise (or Jack of all trades), you lack the proficiencies for anything but simple weapons (unless you go Avatar and lose the tankiness of Immortal), their healing is decent but far from the best and going heavy handed with abilities to pull off all the stuff they can do will quickly leave you without psi points wanting a long rest. Then as it enters tiers 3 and 4 it's linear powerscaling stops (whilst that of casters continues)and it becomes about creative combinations.

[Shabbazar]

I have to agree with those who don't like the large amount of new spells for the Sorcerer. One of the core limiting factors for that class seemed to be a limited selection of spells.

[Luccan]

I actually don't have a problem with an expanded spell list in theory; sorcerers need the boost IMO. My problem is I know it probably won't stick around or that they won't do it for the other sorcerers. Yeah, it's not like all the best spells are on the list, but it certainly frees up your choices when you know you have some utility and BFC already taken care of. Other sorcerers don't get that. Someone said Draconic Sorcerer's AC is a similar power boost, but that's basically just a single first level spell (admittedly a continuous and nondispellable one, but still). Meanwhile, this sorcerer gets multiple extra spells of higher levels (and synergistic abilities to boot, which I know is the point, but it's not like Draconic Sorcerers or the official version of Storm get free spells related to their elemental damage).

[RickAllison]

I actually don't have a problem with an expanded spell list in theory; sorcerers need the boost IMO. My problem is I know it probably won't stick around or that they won't do it for the other sorcerers. Yeah, it's not like all the best spells are on the list, but it certainly frees up your choices when you know you have some utility and BFC already taken care of. Other sorcerers don't get that. Someone said Draconic Sorcerer's AC is a similar power boost, but that's basically just a single first level spell (admittedly a continuous and nondispellable one, but still). Meanwhile, this sorcerer gets multiple extra spells of higher levels (and synergistic abilities to boot, which I know is the point, but it's not like Draconic Sorcerers or the official version of Storm get free spells related to their elemental damage).

I don't think it's necessarily a problem for sorcerers to get some extra thematic spells. It's only a problem if some sorcerers have them and others don't.

[Pex]

By RAW couldn't you cast mind sliver as an action, then quicken the leveled spell you want?

It is weird that this would work, but if you quicken the cantrip suddenly it doesn't work

Yes that works, but the idea was to have your target suffer from Mind Sliver and a Heightened spell to roll with Disadvantage and -1d4 for your turn, which can't be done. Well, it would if the Heightened spell is a Cantrip, but the idea was for a save or suck spell. The minus 1d4 by itself is still good but you might as well use Heighten spell if you intend to do this a lot. Quicken spell and Heighten spell are good in their own right so the choice of tactics is between a Cantrip known and 2 sorcery points or spend 3 sorcery points.

In any case there's nothing wrong with casting Mind Sliver to set up a party member's saving throw attack. Teamwork is a good thing.

[RickAllison]

Any thoughts on giving Mind Sliver to Artificers?

[Luccan]

Any thoughts on giving Mind Sliver to Artificers?

I don't see why it would be a problem. Its damage is decent for the kind of debuff it provides, but it's not like it makes saves impossible. At low levels you aren't likely to have high spell saves. At high levels, you should be facing better threats that should still have a chance even with a -4

[Protolisk]

Any thoughts on giving Mind Sliver to Artificers?

Artillerist could make it a bit stronger in that it gains Int mod to damage, but the damage isn't that high to start with. Not much an artillerist could do to make it too powerful.

Other than that, there's not much an artificer can do with this cantrip that a Wizard/Warlock/Sorcerer couldn't do, or do better, especailly since the Enhanced Wand only affects spell attacks and not saves.

However, it does look like a sort of replacement for the Information Overload pseudo-cantrip subclass feature that Archivists got, especially now that Archivists are confirmed to not exist in the new Eberron book.

[Spectrulus]

I don't think it's necessarily a problem for sorcerers to get some extra thematic spells. It's only a problem if some sorcerers have them and others don't.
Thanks Rick. That's basically 2/3rds of the conversation in this thread.

I feel similarly. I could see 5 bonus spells with current system, or UA print with expanded bonus spells for all sorcerers as a fix. We all have a good idea how that's going to go though.

[jaappleton]

Thanks Rick. That's basically 2/3rds of the conversation in this thread.

I feel similarly. I could see 5 bonus spells with current system, or UA print with expanded bonus spells for all sorcerers as a fix. We all have a good idea how that's going to go though.

Crawford addressed this in a video for D&D Beyond.

“If one archetype gets bonus spells, will we go back and add them for other previously released ones? No.”

He went on to elaborate that archetypes are balanced against each other as sums of their parts. Ones might be stronger at earlier levels while others get a boost at other points.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Crawford addressed this in a video for D&D Beyond.

“If one archetype gets bonus spells, will we go back and add them for other previously released ones? No.”

He went on to elaborate that archetypes are balanced against each other as sums of their parts. Ones might be stronger at earlier levels while others get a boost at other points.

I understand the idea but at which point is this subclass "weaker" than the ones in print?

It gains additional spells known at 1, for a Sorcerer that's quite good AC and bonus action telepathy are extra. It gains the ability to cast those spells for sorcery points at 6, that's amazing with a nice bonus of psychic damage resistance and advantage against fear and charm saves. At 14th level it can use sorcery points to transform itself in convenient ways (swim speed, fly speed, squeeze through any space larger than 1 inch, see invisibility and become aware of hidden creatures), sure the uses are limited but it's usually equal or better than the other classes permanent bonuses when active. 18th is once per long rest 20ft damaging aura that can teleport you up to a mile within sight with an opportunity to take an enemy with you.

It immediately stands out as one of the most powerful options a Sorcerer could take.

[jaappleton]

I understand the idea but at which point is this subclass "weaker" than the ones in print?

It gains additional spells known at 1, for a Sorcerer that's quite good AC and bonus action telepathy are extra. It gains the ability to cast those spells for sorcery points at 6, that's amazing with a nice bonus of psychic damage resistance and advantage against fear and charm saves. At 14th level it can use sorcery points to transform itself in convenient ways (swim speed, fly speed, squeeze through any space larger than 1 inch, see invisibility and become aware of hidden creatures), sure the uses are limited but it's usually equal or better than the other classes permanent bonuses when active. 18th is once per long rest 20ft damaging aura that can teleport you up to a mile within sight with an opportunity to take an enemy with you.

It immediately stands out as one of the most powerful options a Sorcerer could take.

Dragon gets bonus damage and bonus HP, same AC, eventual flight. And you can gain resistance to your affinity for cheap.

Wild is.... Really can’t compare, too random.

Shadow gets a unique version of Heightened Spell vía it’s dire wolf, and cast cast Darkness via Sorcery Points and see through it, and have a real hard time dying.

Divine gets access to another spell list, Empowered Healing (nice in theory but you shouldn’t be healing in combat), and a once per short rest bonus to saves and eventual flight

Storm gets nothing worth a damn

Missing a couple small benefits I think, but those are the highlights. So it stomps on Storm but all the others do, too. Even if the Aberrant gets bonus spells in the print version, how often are those going to be your go-to spells? They’re nice to have, sure, but odds are you have a Prepared Caster in the group that can cover stuff.

I’m not worried about Aberrant getting the bonus spells. I also don’t think they’re THAT much of a benefit because most of the combat spells are kinda retreads of the same concept (minor damage, controlling effects), I really don’t consider this particular bonus spell list to be this huge boon everyone else is making it out to be.

[Dork_Forge]

Dragon gets bonus damage and bonus HP, same AC, eventual flight. And you can gain resistance to your affinity for cheap.

Wild is.... Really can’t compare, too random.

Shadow gets a unique version of Heightened Spell vía it’s dire wolf, and cast cast Darkness via Sorcery Points and see through it, and have a real hard time dying.

Divine gets access to another spell list, Empowered Healing (nice in theory but you shouldn’t be healing in combat), and a once per short rest bonus to saves and eventual flight

Storm gets nothing worth a damn

Missing a couple small benefits I think, but those are the highlights. So it stomps on Storm but all the others do, too. Even if the Aberrant gets bonus spells in the print version, how often are those going to be your go-to spells? They’re nice to have, sure, but odds are you have a Prepared Caster in the group that can cover stuff.

I’m not worried about Aberrant getting the bonus spells. I also don’t think they’re THAT much of a benefit because most of the combat spells are kinda retreads of the same concept (minor damage, controlling effects), I really don’t consider this particular bonus spell list to be this huge boon everyone else is making it out to be.

Storm Sorcs get: Free 10ft disengage movement whenever casting a leveled spell, always on resistance to two damage types and bonus damage to any number of creatures you want within 10 feet when casting a spell, unlimited use reaction damage and potential to push enemies and capstones with immunity to two damage types, a superior fly speed (without wings) to other sorcs and the ability to share flight with the party. How is that nothing worth a damn?

You seem to think highly of the Shadow sorcs drop to one ability, but that will start to age out of usefulness (DC 5+dmg taken is steep) and doesn't even work if it's radiant or a crit that drops you. Divine Souls access to the Cleric list is fantastic, but also makes the Sorc restriction of spells known even worse.

As for the Aberrant Mind, 10 spells always known is a huge boon, even if you don't use them that often because you have the option (and can cast them cheaper than anyone else without ANY components) and it frees prepared casters (or Warlocks) from taking those spells. Their telepathy doesn't follow the trend of telepathy already established (both the GOO warlock and the Ghostwise halfling couldn't receive replies, hell even the Mystic couldn't be default), it's basically Rary's Telepathic Bond Jr. edition. Their 18th level feature is like a weird psychic version of Spirit Guardians that you get for free once a day and can use teleport a mile away (err what?) if things start to go towards a TPK.

I like the new UA but as it is, it's a very strong option.

[Nhorianscum]

Yes that works, but the idea was to have your target suffer from Mind Sliver and a Heightened spell to roll with Disadvantage and -1d4 for your turn, which can't be done. Well, it would if the Heightened spell is a Cantrip, but the idea was for a save or suck spell. The minus 1d4 by itself is still good but you might as well use Heighten spell if you intend to do this a lot. Quicken spell and Heighten spell are good in their own right so the choice of tactics is between a Cantrip known and 2 sorcery points or spend 3 sorcery points.

In any case there's nothing wrong with casting Mind Sliver to set up a party member's saving throw attack. Teamwork is a good thing.

Mind Sliver + Bend Luck + Tides of chaos or Mind Sliver + Hound of ill omen works.

Sliver + Bend + Tides in particular is usable in one go and seems absolutely brutal.

[Waazraath]

I find the Sorcerer subclass to be absurd, tbh. The sorcerer is designed to have a limited number of spells, which it can greatly empower with metamagic, allowing stuff no other caster can do. Power at the expense of versatility. Despite whether we think this has been balanced correctly (compared to other classes), that's what it is.

The abberant mind subclass tears this apart. It's not just the 10 extra spells (for a class that only knows 15!); it's a free 24/h mage armor; it's telepathy; it's the lvl 14 ability, that covers a huge number of situations that normally all require specific spells (fly/waterbreathing/swim speed/slimeform/seeinvisibilitybutbetter. That's another equivalent of 5 spells known.

This makes no sense whatsoever compared to the subtypes we have so far.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm glad tp see @jappletpn & @Dork_forge fighting back against the selective sorcerer comparisons with details about the stuff those other sorc archtypes get that is omitted from the "aberrant sorc has more spell slots than Y sorc" nonsense. I don't know what it is about sorc & warock that causes people to regularly make such stilted & deliberately misleading complaints. Perhaps the scorlock factor is just that they are all the same kind of people. Just the other day in a discussion someone was trying to make on why bladelock should get extra attack scaling in line with eldritch blast to get the fighter capstone with attack at warlock 17 by comparing a fighter with a flametongue to a bladelock with a longsword who couldn't be bothered to use hex. Sadly this kind of thinking got baked into too much pf the low level phb warlock core making it hard to fix

[Kane0]

Draconic Sorcerer:
Level 1: Free 'mage armor', +1 HP per level
Level 6: Cha to damage (one elemental damage type), spend SP for temporary damage resistance (same damage type)
Level 14: Free flight
Level 18: 5 SP for temporary fear/charm aura using concentration

Aberrant Mind:
Level 1: Free 'mage armor', 2 'domain' spells
Level 3: 2 'domain' spells
Level 5: 2 'domain' spells
Level 6: Cast 'domain' spells using SP, adv on saves vs charm/fear, psychic damage resistance
Level 7: 2 'domain' spells
Level 9: 2 'domain' spells
Level 14: Bonus action 1+ SP for temporary swim, flight, squeezing through spaces and/or blindsense-lite
Level 18: Ally friendly AoE aura with teleport function, no SP cost

They aren't equal.

[Tetrasodium]

Draconic Sorcerer:
Level 1: Free 'mage armor', +1 HP per level
Level 6: Cha to damage (one elemental damage type), spend SP for temporary damage resistance (same damage type)
Level 14: Free flight
Level 18: 5 SP for temporary fear/charm aura using concentration

Aberrant Mind:
Level 1: Free 'mage armor', 2 'domain' spells
Level 3: 2 'domain' spells
Level 5: 2 'domain' spells
Level 6: Cast 'domain' spells using SP, adv on saves vs charm/fear, psychic damage resistance
Level 7: 2 'domain' spells
Level 9: 2 'domain' spells
Level 14: Bonus action 1+ SP for temporary swim, flight, squeezing through spaces and/or blindsense-lite
Level 18: Ally friendly AoE aura with teleport function, no SP cost

They aren't equal.

tr again
Draconic Sorcerer:
Level 1: Free 'mage armor', +1 HP, Proficient in draconic, advantage on charisma checks with dragons (charisma being a noted dump stat for corcerers, I can see why you left this out)
Level 2: +1 HP
Level 3: +1 HP
Level 4: +1 HP
Level 5: +1 HP
Level 6: +1 HP, Cha to damage (one elemental damage type the sorcerer gets to choose), spend SP for temporary damage resistance (same damage type)
Level 7: +1 HP
Level 8: +1 HP
Level 9: +1 HP
Level 10: +1 HP
Level 11: +1 HP
Level 12: +1 HP
Level 13: +1 HP
Level 14: +1 HP, Free flight with a fly speed equal to current speed, & duration until you decide to end it
Level 15: +1 HP
Level 16: +1 HP
Level17: +1 HP
Level 18: +1 HP
Level 18: +2 HP5 SP for temporary fear/charm aura using concentration

Aberrant Mind:
Level 1: Free 'mage armor', Add arms of hadar & dissonant whispers to spell list as psionic spells
Level 3: Add calm emptions & detect thoughts to class spells as a psionic spells
Level 5: Add hunger of hadar & sending to detect thoughts
Level 6: Cast psionic spells using 1sp/slot level of the spell, adv on saves vs charm/fear, psychic damage resistance
Level 7: add compulsion & Black tentacles to spell listas psionic spells
Level 9: add modify memory & telepathic bond to spell listas psionic spells
Level 14: Bonus action 1+ SP for temporary swim, flight, squeezing through spaces and/or blindsense-lite
Level 18: Ally friendly AoE aura with teleport function, no SP cost

They are pretty equal.wen you don't massage the data to give a different appearance that implies draconic features are weaker by putting the +1hp all at once & rewording the extremely niche specific psionic spells into vague "domain spells" which are usually either pretty good or always prepped spells anyways.

[Corran]

The sorcerer origin has so many similarities with the goolock, that I don't know why they even bothered with it. I like the idea behind the archetype, and I like having new stuff, but I don't like when the new stuff kind of invalidate (or overlap significantly, if you prefer) with what we already have. Can't say much else about the archetype cause I stopped reading just after the bonus spells. Oh, and I like the idea of having a fixed list of appropriately thematic bonus spells on the sorcerer.

I like the warlock. The level 1 feature is stronger than the other warlock level 1 features, though I think this is mitigated somewhat by the level 6 feature. On the other hand, the level 10 feature (devouring maw) strikes me as a bit over the top and prone to abuse. The amount of temp hp is too much I think. The transport option from the level 14 feature is needlessly restrictive imo. One pet peeve. Yes, Evard's is thematic for the archetype, but mechanically speaking it's one of the best reasons (if not the best) to go with the goo patron. I don't like seeing it shared with other warlock archetypes. Keep what makes each archetype unique to itself so that there is sufficient reason from a mechanics' point of view to pick it.

The cantrip looks delicious. Did anyone figure out if the strange warding of the cantrip affect anything like lucky rerolls, inspiration, etc?

[ProsecutorGodot]

They are pretty equal.wen you don't massage the data to give a different appearance that implies draconic features are weaker by putting the +1hp all at once & rewording the extremely niche specific psionic spells into vague "domain spells" which are usually either pretty good or always prepped spells anyways.

Stretching 1hp/lvl to make the data look larger isn't massaging? +1 Hit Die/Max HP isn't repeated for each level on your class list but players recognize it as a useful feature regardless.

If anything labeling them as domain spells would be less appealing, Clerics and Paladin are prepared casters, domain spells are more like a nice bonus than a feature. For Sorcerer's however, having bonus spells (nearly doubling their pool of spells) is a large feature regardless of the quality of the spells. It allows you to have spells that might be situationally useful rather than being shoehorned into only choosing those that are definitely going to be useful and potentially regretting your choices in the future.

If we observe it from the angle that Jaapleton brought up that they are balanced against the sum of their parts, we can tell that Draconic Bloodline is distinctly early game. Their 1st and 6th level features stand out as pretty good, their 14th is also good. Their capstone is pretty underwhelming with it's large SP cost and use of your concentration.

Aberrant Mind gains useful features at all breakpoints and because of their expanded spell list, between them as well. The sum of its parts is greater than most of the other subclasses, not just because it has more parts but also because those parts are almost all good.

[Kane0]

Indeed. Even if you took out the bonus spells it's still a very lucrative subclass. Draconic highlights are the HP and flight, but aberrant mind gets great stuff at each stage (often at lower SP cost) while also being able to poach that flight for short stints.

[stoutstien]

I keep reading over the warlock option and wishing it was a new cleric domain instead. I feel it would be an overall better fit for the kraken priest effect and then we would have no overlap with GOO locks.

[jaappleton]

I keep reading over the warlock option and wishing it was a new cleric domain instead. I feel it would be an overall better fit for the kraken priest effect and then we would have no overlap with GOO locks.

Why not both?

I see so many saying this steps on the GOO's toes. What if I want to be a cthulu, deep horror, tentacle-y worshipper.... but NOT have to be a Warlock?

Why can't there be one of these Patrons / Domains / Bloodlines for each of those three classes?

[stoutstien]

Why not both?

I see so many saying this steps on the GOO's toes. What if I want to be a cthulu, deep horror, tentacle-y worshipper.... but NOT have to be a Warlock?

Why can't there be one of these Patrons / Domains / Bloodlines for each of those three classes?

I'm game. The flavor is there for a pally as well.

[Nhorianscum]

I'm game. The flavor is there for a pally as well.

Master, in what way did I break my oath?

Oh my poor simple fool, you were.... krakalackin

[Wizard_Lizard]

I keep reading over the warlock option and wishing it was a new cleric domain instead. I feel it would be an overall better fit for the kraken priest effect and then we would have no overlap with GOO locks.

You don't HAVE to make a pact with cthulhu for this subclass, it's just the tentacle theme doesn't work well with a sahuagin.

[Pex]

You don't HAVE to make a pact with cthulhu for this subclass, it's just the tentacle theme doesn't work well with a sahuagin.

Sahuagin are allergic to octopi and squid?

[Nagog]

Looks great to me! Although the flavor of being rather... slimy, as the sorcerer I'll probably reflavor, but I like the mechanics! Also I'm happy to see they've generalized and reworked the Kraken patron! As one who was planning on using a Kraken Patron Warlock, this gives me much to consider. :D

[sambojin]

If much of the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer makes it through, I'll be happy. It is the ultimate dip for a Moon Druid. Ultimate starting base for one too.

Gets Con proficiency if starting as one (saves a feat for the thinky bear), gets telepathy (talky bear), gets 13+Dex AC (armoured bear), gets four cantrips (versatile bear), gets two spells and normal spell slot progression (Shield and something else bear, probably Disguise Self or Expeditious Retreat for "invisible" bear or fast bear), gets Mind Sliver as a cantrip (save-that-you-bastard bear, for when you're transferring into not-bear caster-mode), and is just generally the best dip you could ever have for a Moon so far. Needs 13 Charisma, but guess who doesn't really need most stats? Bears (umm, Moon Druids).

None of the downsides of wildshape apply any more other than no-casting (you have telepathy for talking/RP, and slightly better armour now, maybe the occasional Mage Hand too), you have Concentration save proficiency covered so you can grab something else feat-wise (Alert or Sentinel or Warcaster or Lucky? Or just +2Wis, which is always good), your cantrips make you gooderer at everything, and Mind Sliver works great in caster-mode because nearly every spell you have hits saves and not AC (and Mind Sliver hits Int, which you normally don't. But it boosts bonus action Flaming Sphere'ing rather nicely too, or keeps your minute-long save-or-suck spells locked-on to a BBEG pretty well, or pre-targets things for a poison-stab/other-caster-kaboom next turn while you bonus-action wild shape into something). Oh, and you get the Shield spell, so you can actually tank, and have slightly better than natural armour to help along doing this with an "oh, bugger" button to push for serious situations.

Perfect Moon dip. Only 1 level needed, get all the things, doesn't hold back spell slot progression. Having an invisibly psionically shielded bear (no-one wants goop in their fur) will be amazing.

Skip 1 druid level, do not pass level 19 Druid, collect all the things. By lvl3, you'll feel godly.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Bringing it up once again, DND Beyond interviewed Crawford on Mind Sliver here (https://youtu.be/Ioinmqiy_OU).

Not a lot of new discussion but at the very end Crawford does state that when it was first proposed it was a whopping 1d10 damage and that there has also been consideration on dropping it to 1d4.

It was also compared to Vicious Mockery as an intention to start creating Psionic themed spells.

[Evaar]

You don't HAVE to make a pact with cthulhu for this subclass, it's just the tentacle theme doesn't work well with a sahuagin.

Go with spectral water, jaws, storms, whatever. There's a sidebar about the flavor specifying it doesn't have to be all tentacles all day. Maybe your "tentacle" is a whirling sharknado that throws lightning sharks at dudes.

[micahaphone]

Hopefully this is okay to post in this thread:

I think my DM will let me use this UA sorc as a back up character in CoS. It'd be level 6, in a party with 2 melees. My first time building any type of sorc, critique my choices?

point buy, half elf, ASI to Cha
stats 8/16/16/10/8/18

Cantrips; infestation, chill touch, ray of frost/minor illusion, mage hand, prestidigitation.

Metamagic: twin, subtle

Level 1:
(Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers)
Shield
Disguise Self

Level 2:
(Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts)
Hold Person (or maybe levitate?)
Suggestion

Level 3:
(Hunger of Hadar, Sending)
Counterspell
Haste
Blink (or other?)

[Wildarm]

Hopefully this is okay to post in this thread:

I think my DM will let me use this UA sorc as a back up character in CoS. It'd be level 6, in a party with 2 melees. My first time building any type of sorc, critique my choices?

point buy, half elf, ASI to Cha
stats 8/16/16/10/8/18

Cantrips; infestation, chill touch, ray of frost/minor illusion, mage hand, prestidigitation.

Metamagic: twin, subtle

Level 1:
(Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers)
Shield
Disguise Self

Level 2:
(Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts)
Hold Person (or maybe levitate?)
Suggestion

Level 3:
(Hunger of Hadar, Sending)
Counterspell
Haste
Blink (or other?)

Cantrips - Chill Touch is a good cantrip choice. Infestation thematically is fun but mechanically wonky.
Level 1 - You probably want to take absorb elements(Psi-shield). Perhaps magic missle(Telekinetic blasts).
Level 2 - Invisibility is pretty useful in CoS. Being able to scout ahead undetected will save lives
Level 3 - Counterspell is a must. Would strongly recommend Fireball. There are some really deadly fights where you need solid AOE.

[jaappleton]

Hopefully this is okay to post in this thread:

I think my DM will let me use this UA sorc as a back up character in CoS. It'd be level 6, in a party with 2 melees. My first time building any type of sorc, critique my choices?

point buy, half elf, ASI to Cha
stats 8/16/16/10/8/18

Cantrips; infestation, chill touch, ray of frost/minor illusion, mage hand, prestidigitation.

Metamagic: twin, subtle

Level 1:
(Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers)
Shield
Disguise Self

Level 2:
(Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts)
Hold Person (or maybe levitate?)
Suggestion

Level 3:
(Hunger of Hadar, Sending)
Counterspell
Haste
Blink (or other?)

Focus on spells that can scale well and get even better with Metamagic. I'd take off Suggestion.

[Spiritchaser]

Focus on spells that can scale well and get even better with Metamagic. I'd take off Suggestion.

He has subtle metamagic

Subtle suggestions are hilarious

[micahaphone]

Cantrips - Chill Touch is a good cantrip choice. Infestation thematically is fun but mechanically wonky.
Level 1 - You probably want to take absorb elements(Psi-shield). Perhaps magic missle(Telekinetic blasts).
Level 2 - Invisibility is pretty useful in CoS. Being able to scout ahead undetected will save lives
Level 3 - Counterspell is a must. Would strongly recommend Fireball. There are some really deadly fights where you need solid AOE.

Is fireball necessary with Hunger of Hadar on the expanded list? I know pure sorc can't do Repelling Blast shenanigans to keep people in it.

Is it hard to determine how infestation works in-game?

I'll try to shift something around for Invisibility, thank you.



Focus on spells that can scale well and get even better with Metamagic. I'd take off Suggestion.

I thought Hold Person, Suggestion, and Haste were all strong contenders for Twin, and Subtle is good for "in town" casting and counterspell. Is there a better choice? Maybe levitate for twinning?

I'm trying to spec into buff/debuff magic, but I'm inexperienced with sorcerers, and I know it's easy to build a crappy sorcerer.

[Nhorianscum]

Hopefully this is okay to post in this thread:

I think my DM will let me use this UA sorc as a back up character in CoS. It'd be level 6, in a party with 2 melees. My first time building any type of sorc, critique my choices?

point buy, half elf, ASI to Cha
stats 8/16/16/10/8/18

Cantrips; infestation, chill touch, ray of frost/minor illusion, mage hand, prestidigitation.

Metamagic: twin, subtle

Level 1:
(Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers)
Shield
Disguise Self

Level 2:
(Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts)
Hold Person (or maybe levitate?)
Suggestion

Level 3:
(Hunger of Hadar, Sending)
Counterspell
Haste
Blink (or other?)

Your action economy is pretty awkward with this list and metamagic pulls. Suggestion, dissonant, and haste interact twinned in a meaningful way so twinned is still useful for sure.

You also have a whopping 5 concentration spells most of which have overlap. Which is the bigger concern.

(Hold person is easier to upcast than it is to twin.)

[micahaphone]

Your action economy is pretty awkward with this list and metamagic pulls. Suggestion, dissonant, and haste interact twinned in a meaningful way so twinned is still useful for sure.

You also have a whopping 5 concentration spells most of which have overlap. Which is the bigger concern.

(Hold person is easier to upcast than it is to twin.)

I wasn't even thinking about concentration, good point! I'm used to warlock, where you're probably only casting 1 conc spell at a time per combat. Back to the drawing board!

[Nagog]

I have to agree with those who don't like the large amount of new spells for the Sorcerer. One of the core limiting factors for that class seemed to be a limited selection of spells.


I don't think it's necessarily a problem for sorcerers to get some extra thematic spells. It's only a problem if some sorcerers have them and others don't.


I find the Sorcerer subclass to be absurd, tbh. The sorcerer is designed to have a limited number of spells, which it can greatly empower with metamagic, allowing stuff no other caster can do. Power at the expense of versatility. Despite whether we think this has been balanced correctly (compared to other classes), that's what it is.

The abberant mind subclass tears this apart. It's not just the 10 extra spells (for a class that only knows 15!); it's a free 24/h mage armor; it's telepathy; it's the lvl 14 ability, that covers a huge number of situations that normally all require specific spells (fly/waterbreathing/swim speed/slimeform/seeinvisibilitybutbetter. That's another equivalent of 5 spells known.

This makes no sense whatsoever compared to the subtypes we have so far.

I think the extra known spells is great for the sorcerer. While the sorcerer has metamagic and sorcery points and those are great abilities, the drawbacks of rigid spells known and so few spells known are hardly worth it. On top of that, the spells they get are hardly top of the line spells, the only two I think I'd ever use are Detect Thoughts and Modify Memory, and even those are fairly situational in use. Whereas most "Sorcerers" before were multiclass dips for Cha based spellcasting classes and metamagic (with very few full Sorcerers out there in comparison), this subclass helps Sorcerers feel like a full class of it's own to hold it's own alongside Warlocks, Wizards, and Bards. I can't help but notice that everybody here is comparing this subclass to the other Sorc subclasses rather than other full casters and their subclasses. Essentially this UA subclass is WoTC acknowledging that many of their previous sorcerer subclasses were subpar in comparison to the other spellcasting options and making up for it in the subclass.

[Kane0]

I can't help but notice that everybody here is comparing this subclass to the other Sorc subclasses rather than other full casters and their subclasses. Essentially this UA subclass is WoTC acknowledging that many of their previous sorcerer subclasses were subpar in comparison to the other spellcasting options and making up for it in the subclass.

And then in an interview saying they wont be doing anything about it after that acknowledgement. Its one step forward, one step back.

[Tokumei]

And then in an interview saying they wont be doing anything about it after that acknowledgement. Its one step forward, one step back.

Several people on the current team dislike the sorcerer Crawford amoung them. Which I think affected the class development of the Sorc. Damn shame since I prefer the sorc and warlock over the wizard.

[Luccan]

Several people on the current team dislike the sorcerer Crawford amoung them. Which I think affected the class development of the Sorc. Damn shame since I prefer the sorc and warlock over the wizard.

Wizards of the Coast hasn't seemed to care much for the Sorcerer since they created the class in 3e. Which is weird given that the design team has changed somewhat since then. It's frustrating because fans really like it, so they'll keep putting it in each edition, but the designers can't be bothered to care enough to not severely damage the class in one way or another.