Having trouble wrapping my head around coffeelock

[Phhase]

So, I'm not entirely clear about the mechanical "gimmick" per se of the abovementioned derided class combo. I'm guessing it has something to do with converting warlock slots into sorcery points or something like that, but could someone spell (heh) out for me exactly what the entire "Thing That It Does" is?

[Rakoa]

Sorcery Points can convert spells into sorcery points. Warlock spells come back on a short rest. Take many short rests and stock up on sorcery points to infinity. Sorcery Points reset on a long rest, so never take one. Take that Moon invocation thing as a Warlock to never have to sleep or deal with exhaustion. And just like that, you can have nigh-infinite sorcery points after, like, a week, that you can convert into spells or do metamagic with.

[Phhase]

Sorcery Points can convert spells into sorcery points. Warlock spells come back on a short rest. Take many short rests and stock up on sorcery points to infinity. Sorcery Points reset on a long rest, so never take one. Take that Moon invocation thing as a Warlock to never have to sleep or deal with exhaustion. And just like that, you can have nigh-infinite sorcery points after, like, a week, that you can convert into spells or do metamagic with.

That sounds OP, but even with Aspect of the Moon, you can't escape exhaustion. While you no longer need to sleep in order to gain the benefits of a long rest, it still is a long rest, and going without it will cause you to gain exhaustion and not heal up. Are you sure that's how that works?

[RickAllison]

That sounds OP, but even with Aspect of the Moon, you can't escape exhaustion. While you no longer need to sleep in order to gain the benefits of a long rest, it's still a long rest, and going without it will cause you to gain exhaustion and not heal up. Are you sure that's how that works?

The key idea is that there is nothing in the rules that inflicts exhaustion for not taking a long rest, it's rather that taking a long rest is the only way to reduce exhaustion without cost. Nothing requires or penalizes you for not taking a long rest other than, well, not getting the benefit of a long rest.

[Particle_Man]

I guess you could play the dmg npc skeleton race to become immune to exhaustion? I am playing a berserker skeleton to avoid exhaustion.

[Phhase]

The key idea is that there is nothing in the rules that inflicts exhaustion for not taking a long rest, it's rather that taking a long rest is the only way to reduce exhaustion without cost. Nothing requires or penalizes you for not taking a long rest other than, well, not getting the benefit of a long rest.

....huh. That's odd. Sounds very much like not RAI, but is surprisingly RAW sound and powerful to boot.

Weird.

Neat.

[RickAllison]

....huh. That's odd. Sounds very much like not RAI, but is surprisingly RAW sound and powerful to boot.

Weird.

Neat.

I wouldn't call it odd at all. The long rest is an arbitrary mechanic to recover limited capabilities, it makes no sense to have it as a required ability to function. It's not a biological need like sleep is. This is reinforced by things like the Gritty Realism variant, where taking a long rest is completely divorced from the sleep cycle and you could potentially (during downtime) go weeks without a long rest.

[1Pirate]

That sounds OP, but even with Aspect of the Moon, you can't escape exhaustion. While you no longer need to sleep in order to gain the benefits of a long rest, it still is a long rest, and going without it will cause you to gain exhaustion and not heal up. Are you sure that's how that works?

The more accepted method is to go Divine Soul and then cast Greater Restoration when you need to reduce exhaustion.

[Fable Wright]

The more accepted method is to go Divine Soul and then cast Greater Restoration when you need to reduce exhaustion.

That sounds like an absolutely awful way to do it, given the 100gp gold cost per day to charge up spells and having to spend a chunk of each day's SP to get Greater Restoration.

The easiest way to do it is just be a Warforged. No penalties for not sleeping or not taking a long rest. No requirement to take a specific pact or invocation.

[No brains]

I found a bizarre new thing that could help coffeelocks...
There's some tainted water in Forge of Fury that has a disease that is supposed to inflict exhaustion. The funny part is that it removes a level of exhaustion when the disease is successfully saved against. In theory, this disease could remove levels of exhaustion that come from other sources, such as staying up for weeks on a coffee bender.

It would take work to get infected the first time and then fail subsequent throws, but the pieces are in place. Sorcerers get proficiency in Con saves. Judicious use of the Resistance cantrip and piling on constitution could bolster saves even more. It's also theoretically possible to bottle the tainted water to intentionally drink some when you accidentally defeat the sickness.

I guess cold brewed orc is an ingredient in the lock's coffee...

[8wGremlin]

Also Warforged now do not need to sleep, and by default are immune to exhaustion.

[RickAllison]

Also Warforged now do not need to sleep, and by default are immune to exhaustion.

Immune to exhaustion due to lack of rest. Important distinction, they can still suffer exhaustion due to Berserker rage, pushing beyond their limits in a sprint or a marathon, and special effects.

[Tanarii]

Aren't sorcerer points capped at your sorcerer level? So you're tripling your number of sorcerer points per typical adventuring day. Obviously that's a huge benefit but it's hardly infinite. It also relies on having time to take back-to-back short rests.

[Tetrasodium]

So, I'm not entirely clear about the mechanical "gimmick" per se of the abovementioned derided class combo. I'm guessing it has something to do with converting warlock slots into sorcery points or something like that, but could someone spell (heh) out for me exactly what the entire "Thing That It Does" is?

it takes creative reading of the rules & a healthy dose of "well it doesn't say I can't". In my experience players trying for a coffeelock have an unusually difficult time seeing the phb164 warlock/pact magic multiclassing section & try to bleeping gestalt as a level x sorc AND warlock.
tl;dr: WotC failed miserably at sanity checking what happens when you muliclass two charisma based frontloaded classes with multiplicative synergies that have class features to strongly fill the weak spot in the other. Declaring that eldritch blast is once again a class feature that scales by warlock level rather than cantrip scaling by class level will help, ut does not entirely solve the problem.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Aren't sorcerer points capped at your sorcerer level? So you're tripling your number of sorcerer points per typical adventuring day. Obviously that's a huge benefit but it's hardly infinite. It also relies on having time to take back-to-back short rests.

The thing is that you need to convert it to sorcerer sluts.

Lets say you are lock 2 sorce 5

You make a level 3 slut, convert 2 level 1 lock sluts to 4 Sorce points and make level 2 slut.

Now you short rest, convert the 2 lock spells you got back to 4 Sorcerery points and make a new level 3 slut.

Not repeat until you will level up or use something important that is 1 per long rest.

Sorcerery points are caped but the Sorcerer slots are not(the font of magic says you create a slot, not refresh it).


Sorcery Points
You have 2 sorcery points, and you gain more as you reach higher levels, as shown in the Sorcery Points column of the Sorcerer table. You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level. You regain all spent sorcery points when you finish a long rest.

Flexible Casting
You can use your sorcery points to gain additional spell slots, or sacrifice spell slots to gain additional sorcery points. You learn other ways to use your sorcery points as you reach higher levels.

Creating Spell Slots. You can transform unexpended sorcery points into one spell slot as a bonus action on your turn. The Creating Spell Slots table shows the cost of creating a spell slot of a given level. You can create spell slots no higher in level than 5th.

Any spell slot you create with this feature vanishes when you finish a long rest.

[Arathryth]

The thing is that you need to convert it to sorcerer sluts.

Lets say you are lock 2 sorce 5

You make a level 3 slut, convert 2 level 1 lock sluts to 4 Sorce points and make level 2 slut.

Now you short rest, convert the 2 lock spells you got back to 4 Sorcerery points and make a new level 3 slut.

Not repeat until you will level up or use something important that is 1 per long rest.

Sorcerery points are caped but the Sorcerer slots are not(the font of magic says you create a slot, not refresh it).

I'm pretty sure you mean "slot"...a "slut" is an individual (usually a female) who frequently behaves in a sexually promiscuous manner.

[Foff]

you basically either take up a whole race and one level of warlock or any race plud three levels of warlock and an invocation slot to walk around with constant slot regeneration, even over your per day limit.
Which in turn translates in having excess sorcery points for all things metamagical ( you can always turn those slots you created back to SP in a pinch).

Get your party members to drive you around in a cart or carry you altogether and keep brewing coffee constantly outside combat.
It's a pretty nifty, highly ostracized mechanic born of multiclassing.
you don't NEED to be a coffelock to be an effective sorlock, the combo is already bonkers by normal standards
With coffelock you achieve endless magical stamina ( for low level slots).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I'm pretty sure you mean "slot"...a "slut" is an individual (usually a female) who frequently behaves in a sexually promiscuous manner.
Maybe....
I am just sick and didn't notice. There is no way I played a few Sorcerer sluts ;).

you basically either take up a whole race and one level of warlock or any race plud three levels of warlock and an invocation slot to walk around with constant slot regeneration, even over your per day limit.
Which in turn translates in having excess sorcery points for all things metamagical ( you can always turn those slots you created back to SP in a pinch).

Get your party members to drive you around in a cart or carry you altogether and keep brewing coffee constantly outside combat.
It's a pretty nifty, highly ostracized mechanic born of multiclassing.
you don't NEED to be a coffelock to be an effective sorlock, the combo is already bonkers by normal standards
With coffelock you achieve endless magical stamina ( for low level slots).

I like floating disc and a portable hole.

[JackPhoenix]

A typical coffeelock (well, this one with few paladin levels, as he's wearing armor and shield, and propably knight background for the squire) in action:

https://i.imgur.com/odFrQQ6.jpg

[Nhorianscum]

So, I'm not entirely clear about the mechanical "gimmick" per se of the abovementioned derided class combo. I'm guessing it has something to do with converting warlock slots into sorcery points or something like that, but could someone spell (heh) out for me exactly what the entire "Thing That It Does" is?

In theory it converts sorcery points into n where n is a number between 1 and whatever you like 5th level slots in downtime.

In practice it does nothing, as 6th-9th slots are more valuable than any number of 5ths.

[samcifer]

The thing is that you need to convert it to sorcerer sluts.

convert 2 level 1 lock sluts to 4 Sorce points and make level 2 slut.

Now you short rest, convert the 2 lock spells you got back to 4 Sorcerery points and make a new level 3 slut.



Except that a spell slot only gives back 1 sp per spell slot level, so 2 lv. 1 slots gives 2 sp, not 4. You'd need to be warlock 3 or 4 to give up 2 lv. 2 warlock spell slots to get 4 sp.

Purchasing a spell slot always costs more than the amount of sp you get by breaking them down into sp.

[Tanarii]

Sorcerery points are caped but the Sorcerer slots are not(the font of magic says you create a slot, not refresh it).
Ah, thank you. Apparently I didn't have my head around the process either.

Still limited by the length of time you can rest between encounters. But an issue if you can just stack up a bunch of slots between days, and they never go away unless used.

[Nhorianscum]

Except that a spell slot only gives back 1 sp per spell slot level, so 2 lv. 1 slots gives 2 sp, not 4. You'd need to be warlock 3 or 4 to give up 2 lv. 2 warlock spell slots to get 4 sp.

Purchasing a spell slot always costs more than the amount of sp you get by breaking them down into sp.

No-no-no

He's making it rain on those spell sluts, with enough spell sluts and time a pimp subclass sorcerer can in fact make a profit.

[samcifer]

No-no-no

He's making it rain on those spell sluts, with enough spell sluts and time a pimp subclass sorcerer can in fact make a profit.

Well yes, that's the point of the build, but if he's only a sorc 2 and is only cashing in the 2 lv. 1 spell slots, he'd only be getting back 2 sp total each time and could have up to 5 sp, unless he's cashing in some of his sorc spell slots, which seems sub-optimal to me.

[Nhorianscum]

Well yes, that's the point of the build, but if he's only a sorc 2 and is only cashing in the 2 lv. 1 spell slots, he'd only be getting back 2 sp total each time and could have up to 5 sp, unless he's cashing in some of his sorc spell slots, which seems sub-optimal to me.

Life is hard and fast below Sorc 8mile.

[Stone-Ears]

The concept is solid in theory but I've yet to meet a DM that would allow abuse like that. If it was one of my DMs they would cap the number of short rests I could benefit from so that the story can move along and we're not taking a short rest unless absolutely necessary

[samcifer]

The concept is solid in theory but I've yet to meet a DM that would allow abuse like that. If it was one of my DMs they would cap the number of short rests I could benefit from so that the story can move along and we're not taking a short rest unless absolutely necessary

Funny enough, my current dm played a coffeelock during our evil campaign, but only used it once and that was just before the final battle against the final boss of the campaign.

[Cikomyr]

The roundabout is straightforward. The DM can legally claim Pact Magic is not compatible with Sorcery Point mechanic.

[Tetrasodium]

Funny enough, my current dm played a coffeelock during our evil campaign, but only used it once and that was just before the final battle against the final boss of the campaign.

I pointed out one of the solutions to this earlier. Either creatively read both RAI & RAW, ignore the way pact magic is supposed to multiclass with spell slots & use character level for both, take huge liberties & decide the bolded bit applies to your sorcerer slots as well because it doesn't explicitly say pact magic slots & technically by strict RAW could be true.

The Warlock table shows how many spell slots you have. The table also shows what the level of those slots is; all of your spell slots are the same level. To cast one of your warlock spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short or long rest.
These things may seem an unbelievable stretch to imagine players trying to do. I've seen all of them in other players as a player and a GM during AL games. The apex was having to stop the game & hand out printouts of phb164/165 with relevant bits highlighted because of three scorlocks in the party doing some combination of that only to have one scorlock player turn to another & say "don't worry, he's wrong, don't change anything".

Policing it as a GM is such a headache that short of banning them from your table it's difficult to do anything about a determined scorlock.

Paradoxically, the most effective solution to the problem IME is to strengthen warlock. "at my table Eldritch blast is a warlock class feature & just like fighter extra attacks & fighter levels, eldritch blast scales with warlock levels. Yes you still get to use the table on PHB106" for your catrips known, but EB will never be one of them & will never scale by character level.

[Pex]

The concept is solid in theory but I've yet to meet a DM that would allow abuse like that. If it was one of my DMs they would cap the number of short rests I could benefit from so that the story can move along and we're not taking a short rest unless absolutely necessary

The trick is since you don't sleep when everyone else takes a long rest you take 8 short rests. Still abusive, but it gets around taking the rests during the adventuring day.