The Wheel of Time: do these characters ever react?

[TheBarbecueChip]

Minor spoilers for the first three books to follow, I personally don't care about spoilers for the series so don't worry about them in responses, plus you know decades old series:

I've started listening to the audio books because I've always heard good things about the series, but I'm beginning to feel frustrated with the characters and their growth. My two main problems are that they never seem to integrate their experiences and that they dont communicate with each other even when there are no reasons not to.

Prime examples for the former are Rand and Egwene. In book 2 Rand lives hundreds of lives when trying to use the portal stone, but it doesn't seem to effect his character at all. Egwene is tortured for months but, except for occasional mentions of "I won't be chained" and an increase in power her character is unchanged.

With the latter, I'm not talking about the lampshaded bits of knowledge where it's only relevant after the fact but things like Perrin recognizing the similarities between his situation and Rand's but not talking to him. Just mentions of "we are the same, we grew up together" but God forbid you communicate with each other and make one another feel less alone, you know the thing that's eating both of you up inside, among other things. Or the interactions between Perrin and Mihn And along those same lines how many arrogant, self righteous, scheming factions does one story need?

And I don't mean any if this to be taken as I'm not enjoying the story. I find the epic elements and the overarching narrative to be amazing and stirring, but to this point I'm disappointed with how some things that should, in my mind, be life altering seem to just roll off the characters and the ties between them demonstrated by their actions seem at odds with the characters' internal monologues. Does this change at all or is this just how Jordan writes?

Oh and why do so many people/things have similar names? Elaine/Egwene, Domani/Domane, etc. (Btw since I'm listening I have no idea how to spell anything in this universe

[Tvtyrant]

Yes. A lot. Rand gets confined to a box in one book and taken our regularly to be beaten, after which he is claustrophobic and hates Aes Sedai. Rand's descent into paranoia and madness is a major series focus by book 5.

[Gnoman]

Egwene is tortured for months but, except for occasional mentions of "I won't be chained" and an increase in power her character is unchanged.

If you're referring to her time as a damane, it has significant effects on her personality that only show up later. Quite apart from giving her an unthinking hatred of Seanchan, it shapes the way she handles later challenges quite a bit.

[Reddish Mage]

The Wheel of Time is a series that is not without some, rather serious, weaknesses. Rand definitely evolves over the next couple of books, but not specifically because of the event you mentioned (in fact, I don't remember it as if he literally lived hundreds of lives and got all the experience from that...he should be smarter if that were the case).

I recall Egwene's experience really just helps fuels her ambition for the next bunch of books and she does repeat the same line about not being chained a lot (in fact there is a lot of repetition by a lot of characters as if that were required to remind us of who they are and what they are about).

[Kitten Champion]

I'll just go to your last point, most of the names are intended as parallels to mythological characters. Elayne - as it's spelled in the book - is from Elaine, which is the name for several women (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_(legend)) in the Arthurian cycle. while Egwene al'Vere is from Guinevere, and Nynaeve's a reference to the Lady of the Lake.

[Lord Raziere]

That is just how Jordan wrote things, unfortunately. Its a real epic series, but man is it full of quirks and weaknesses that honestly could fill up an entire thread with discussion about, I remember people not liking how he handled the gender divide, how he over-described dresses, how he had filler books, how one book was basically just people reacting to a single big event that Rand did, that sort of thing, I'm pretty sure you could make a pretty good Wheel of Time parody series to point it all out and it would be nonstop affectionate parody fun because yes its good, but man does Wheel of Time need an abridged series or something.

[TheBarbecueChip]

Why do I feel like this whole thread might end up in spoilers.


Yes. A lot. Rand gets confined to a box in one book and taken our regularly to be beaten, after which he is claustrophobic and hates Aes Sedai. Rand's descent into paranoia and madness is a major series focus by book 5.

That's not much of a change, considering that Rand isn't exactly enamored with Aes Sedai to begin with... Maybe his feelings of antipathy towards them intensify but it's still not exactly development. Claustrophobia isn't exactly character defining either and his madness at least to this point seems more like a plot point than a character trait.


If you're referring to her time as a damane, it has significant effects on her personality that only show up later. Quite apart from giving her an unthinking hatred of Seanchan, it shapes the way she handles later challenges quite a bit.

Hmm, I guess I expected to see the most radical changes sooner rather than later.


The Wheel of Time is a series that is not without some, rather serious, weaknesses. Rand definitely evolves over the next couple of books, but not specifically because of the event you mentioned (in fact, I don't remember it as if he literally lived hundreds of lives and got all the experience from that...he should be smarter if that were the case).

I recall Egwene's experience really just helps fuels her ambition for the next bunch of books and she does repeat the same line about not being chained a lot (in fact there is a lot of repetition by a lot of characters as if that were required to remind us of who they are and what they are about).

I've noticed that too, and not just at the start of the books but throughout them, ideas, concepts, and plot points are not only brought up multiple times but literally introduced several times as if for the first time. Struck me as weird.


I'll just go to your last point, most of the names are intended as parallels to mythological characters. Elayne - as it's spelled in the book - is from Elaine, which is the name for several women (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_(legend)) in the Arthurian cycle. while Egwene al'Vere is from Guinevere, and Nynaeve's a reference to the Lady of the Lake.

Okay, but the fact that there's a reason for it doesn't exactly make it any better. Especially, since put like that it seems rather transparent and ham fisted.

[Tvtyrant]

Why do I feel like this whole thread might end up in spoilers.

That's not much of a change, considering that Rand isn't exactly enamored with Aes Sedai to begin with... Maybe his feelings of antipathy towards them intensify but it's still not exactly development. Claustrophobia isn't exactly character defining either and his madness at least to this point seems more like a plot point than a character trait.


How many spoilers do you want in the series? There are a few people with PTSD by the end, Egwene just isn't one of them. Rand gets it bad, so does Min and in certain parts Mat's cowardice and general weirdness seems to stem from trauma. But as high fantasy only Rand really gets to work through it, they don't have a lot of therapy sessions or people just breaking down entirely.

[Kitten Champion]

Okay, but the fact that there's a reason for it doesn't exactly make it any better. Especially, since put like that it seems rather transparent and ham fisted.

Personally I had no issue differentiating names. They'll share some attributes, sure, but that's names in general and is doubly true for mythological cycles due to linguistic and naming conventions and the way they're written.

As to being ham-fisted, the crux of Wheel of Time is there's a grand mythic cycle where the Earth's past and future blur into one another and important ideas live on in heavily distorted fashion through the ages and these events are especially notable because they're literally about Armageddon. While Egwene refers to Guinevere, she's not the same character nor fulfills the same role in the story. The idea of Egwene persisted - as with Rand, Perrin, and Mat - her and all the people and events of WoT would be heavily corrupted and spread into innumerable legends and religious concepts to circle back to us in the present.

[Ramza00]

Oh and why do so many people/things have similar names? Elaine/Egwene, Domani/Domane, etc. (Btw since I'm listening I have no idea how to spell anything in this universe

Much of the names are based around King Arthur myths and since that names change within a 1000 years of stories told by different people (500 AD to 1485 Le Morte d'Arthur) for language shift. Furthermore King Arthur mythos is mostly Welsh and French but also incorporates English and other cultures and how they said names / spell names were different.

Pretty much this causes everything to be a confusing mess, name wise. :smalltongue:

Oh Robert Jordan (which is the author's pen name) also created his own variations of names for example Egwene is a modified form of Gwynevere / Guinevere / Gwenhwyfar. So instead of sticking to one of the half dozen variants of that name from the various cross cultural, cross temporal stories, Robert Jordan creates his own additional variations.

-----

As you can see just merely by names and King Arthur mythos, plus the portal stones you mentioned above, Robert Jordan was obsessed with the idea of Archetypes, where dozens of variations a character exist and they make different decisions or have different traits yet they are bland enough that you can sorta see a pattern that is eternal, if you squint hard enough.

RJ's characters often make stupid decisions for he wants to put them into a familiar enough story similar to the "Hero's Journey" of Joseph Campbell / Carl Jung / Eternal Myths what JC called the Monomyth. The tension is supposed to come from the narrative and not from the characters acting kind of like normal humans giving phantastic powers (the spelling here is intentional.)


The Wheel of Time is a series that is not without some, rather serious, weaknesses. Rand definitely evolves over the next couple of books, but not specifically because of the event you mentioned (in fact, I don't remember it as if he literally lived hundreds of lives and got all the experience from that...he should be smarter if that were the case).


My memory of this book 2 scene is Rand did not live hundreds of lives but he saw hundreds of variants of this world and thus he should be questioning what is the nature of reality when he sees so many variants of the pattern.

Except Rand doesn't at least at this time in the book 2.


That is just how Jordan wrote things, unfortunately. Its a real epic series, but man is it full of quirks and weaknesses that honestly could fill up an entire thread with discussion about, I remember people not liking how he handled the gender divide, how he over-described dresses, how he had filler books, how one book was basically just people reacting to a single big event that Rand did, that sort of thing, I'm pretty sure you could make a pretty good Wheel of Time parody series to point it all out and it would be nonstop affectionate parody fun because yes its good, but man does Wheel of Time need an abridged series or something.

We are getting a live action tv show, so an abridged series is probably going to occur sometime in the future.


Okay, but the fact that there's a reason for it doesn't exactly make it any better. Especially, since put like that it seems rather transparent and ham fisted.

Hamfisted is the nature of Wheel of Time. The first book was published in 1990 and the author started writting it in 1984. It feels like a "pulp" type of fiction that is very similar to fantasy and sci-fi you see from the 1950s to 1980s, but unlike most pulp which is meant to be short and published in comics, short stories, magazines, etc The Wheel of Time series instead goes for length trying to attract readers who want to read forever.

It was capturing a market that was created by Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time plus a few other series filled this void.

Ham fisted was the genre at the time.

[TheBarbecueChip]

How many spoilers do you want in the series? There are a few people with PTSD by the end, Egwene just isn't one of them. Rand gets it bad, so does Min and in certain parts Mat's cowardice and general weirdness seems to stem from trauma. But as high fantasy only Rand really gets to work through it, they don't have a lot of therapy sessions or people just breaking down entirely.

Are we really going to try and use the genre of high fantasy to defend underdeveloped characters? Or perhaps underdeveloped is the wrong term, maybe overly resilient?


Personally I had no issue differentiating names. They'll share some attributes, sure, but that's names in general and is doubly true for mythological cycles due to linguistic and naming conventions and the way they're written.

As to being ham-fisted, the crux of Wheel of Time is there's a grand mythic cycle where the Earth's past and future blur into one another and important ideas live on in heavily distorted fashion through the ages and these events are especially notable because they're literally about Armageddon. While Egwene refers to Guinevere, she's not the same character nor fulfills the same role in the story. The idea of Egwene persisted - as with Rand, Perrin, and Mat - her and all the people and events of WoT would be heavily corrupted and spread into innumerable legends and religious concepts to circle back to us in the present.

I think perhaps most of my frustration here stems from my choice of medium. Egwene doesn't look much like Elayne but they sound quite similar, at least out of the mouths of my readers. That and the environment I listen in doesn't help. I spent most of the first book reminding myself who was who between Egwene and Nynaeve.


RJ's characters often make stupid decisions for he wants to put them into a familiar enough story similar to the "Hero's Journey" of Joseph Campbell / Carl Jung / Eternal Myths what JC called the Monomyth. The tension is supposed to come from the narrative and not from the characters acting kind of like normal humans giving phantastic powers (the spelling here is intentional.)

My memory of this book 2 scene is Rand did not live hundreds of lives but he saw hundreds of variants of this world and thus he should be questioning what is the nature of reality when he sees so many variants of the pattern.

Except Rand doesn't at least at this time in the book 2.

Hamfisted is the nature of Wheel of Time. The first book was published in 1990 and the author started writting it in 1984. It feels like a "pulp" type of fiction that is very similar to fantasy and sci-fi you see from the 1950s to 1980s, but unlike most pulp which is meant to be short and published in comics, short stories, magazines, etc The Wheel of Time series instead goes for length trying to attract readers who want to read forever.

It was capturing a market that was created by Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time plus a few other series filled this void.

Ham fisted was the genre at the time.

Stupid decisions do seem to abound...

And even in this thread I've looked at thing and had a "That's how he spelled that?" moment.

I seem to recall Rand telling Veren (the brown Aes Sedai he was traveling with) that he lived hundreds of lives, but I might need to go back and relisten. Maybe it was that he saw hundreds of lives...

Do we add Dragonlance to the ham fisted genre?

[Lord Raziere]

I think perhaps most of my frustration here stems from my choice of medium. Egwene doesn't look much like Elayne but they sound quite similar, at least out of the mouths of my readers. That and the environment I listen in doesn't help. I spent most of the first book reminding myself who was who between Egwene and Nynaeve.


To Quoth ISAM's summaries of Wheel of time I just found online:

Egwene: Elayne, so you did meet Rand, but I will never apologize to him for accusing him of lying that he met you.

Elayne: I am short with red-gold tresses. I know Rand, and love giving lectures.

Egwene: I am short with dark brown tresses. I know Rand, and love giving lectures. We are now sisters.




Do we add Dragonlance to the ham fisted genre?

Yes.

[snowblizz]

I seem to recall Rand telling Veren (the brown Aes Sedai he was traveling with) that he lived hundreds of lives, but I might need to go back and relisten. Maybe it was that he saw hundreds of lives...

Verin. Verin Sedai. And having read the glossary with the suggested pronouncement of words in the series am not sure I ever want to try an audio book.

I think it might be the medium again. The text in the book at least implies it's a rapid succession of moments. It starts with longer scenes described and devolves into just "flickflickflickflickflick" literally written on the page of the book. But that doesn't have to be the intended reading. To me it always came off as short snippets of the pattern, in an increasingly fast/short pace as Rand loses control of the Power most of them just devolving into scenes and impressions. Not something where Rand can sit around comparing them to each other or his own life to take lessons from. Or much at any point really. He is kinda busy with the looming "you are going to go insane" hanging over him.

Oh and by this point he has already been given an explanation and visited a World of the If (not an official name) so he kinda knows what is real or not. Well in this case. He has more pressing and closer matters on the subject of "what is real?"

And Rand literally hires a philosopher to do his thinking for him at one point.

I would also add it's not correct to say none of the characters are unimpacted by what they experience, it's just that they don't have long internal therapy session with themselves to analyse it. I doubt most people do. Much of the stuff does resurface in their actions, but we are also not always told it is due to A or B happening. Again people generally don't speak to themselves about how this terrible thing is why they are doing something.


I'm also going to mention that repetition is big part of the concept of the books, which is one reason they do it. The other is that sometimes it took *years* between them and readers might, literally, need reminders of who characters were.

Do realise you are constantly going to be annoyed at characters acting stupid, or not doing the most optimal rational mechanically efficient solution. The vast majority of the time they will act in accordance to their character though, we as a reader aren't always privy to that either. And usually we are much better informed than the characters. Yes, they could ease a lot of things by talking everything out all the time, but honestly does that actually sound believable to you? It wouldn't to me. Some charactes have few POVs in the early series so are mostly seen from other's view and thus coloured by their perception.

[Saph]

I've started listening to the audio books because I've always heard good things about the series, but I'm beginning to feel frustrated with the characters and their growth. My two main problems are that they never seem to integrate their experiences and that they dont communicate with each other even when there are no reasons not to.

The first complaint has very little basis in the books. Rand by books 10+ is pretty much unrecognisable as Rand in book 1, and it's entirely due to his experiences.

The second one is just a weakness of the people in the fictional world that Jordan's created. Half the problems that the heroes have could be sorted out if they'd just sit down and talk out their problems. With some exceptions, they don't, and really bad things happen as a consequence.

It helps a lot if you don't think of it as "these people should do X" and instead think of it as "these people have a very different culture from mine, and this book is giving you a look at it".

[Anteros]

Jordan isn't Brandon Sanderson. He doesn't beat you over the head with "look how much this character has changed!" He just has them change slowly over time and trusts his readers to pick up on it. A lot of them don't.

[Reddish Mage]

The first complaint has very little basis in the books. Rand by books 10+ is pretty much unrecognisable as Rand in book 1, and it's entirely due to his experiences.

Except the idea that it takes that long for some things to show up itself suggests the problem.

Heck does there really need to be 10+ books and is the series any better for being that long?


The second one is just a weakness of the people in the fictional world that Jordan's created. Half the problems that the heroes have could be sorted out if they'd just sit down and talk out their problems. With some exceptions, they don't, and really bad things happen as a consequence.

This is a frequent storytelling technique. We, the audience, can see clearly that the characters would solve their problems if they just sat down and talked with each other, but the characters don't see that, as a consequence they do stupid thing they shouldn't, and as a consequence drama happen. If it frustrates the audience, many authors would consider that mission accomplished.


It helps a lot if you don't think of it as "these people should do X" and instead think of it as "these people have a very different culture from mine, and this book is giving you a look at it".

Except that's the thing about fantasy books, especially this one. Authors aren't writing about an alien world that has no bearing on contemporary society, politics, and attitudes. Instead, and especially for Jordan, authors write fantasy as a way to talk about what they consider to be important, timeless, essential truths about the human condition and about how people survive, live, thrive, and respond to adversity.


TI remember people not liking how he handled the gender divide, how he over-described dresses, how he had filler books, how one book was basically just people reacting to a single big event that Rand did, that sort of thing

Someone out there has done one or more treatises on the gender differences, stereotypes, fetishes and what the series says on the concept of female power. The fact that there are two gender-specific sources of magic, Saidin and Saidar, experienced differently by the sexes (and the experience of magic mirrors something else) all is saying something big about how Robert Jordan views the world.

And before someone suggests it, I don't think Jordan's women and men (and there isn't much between) are meant to differ all that much from how people are in the real world.

[Sapphire Guard]

Characters not talking each other is pretty well justified, given how thoroughly infiltrated the world is, how accessible eavesdropping weaves are, and the ability of channelers to wear other people's faces. The only absolutely secure way to keep a secret is to not tell anyone and hope you aren't under mind control.

[Ramza00]

To me it always came off as short snippets of the pattern, in an increasingly fast/short pace as Rand loses control of the Power most of them just devolving into scenes and impressions. Not something where Rand can sit around comparing them to each other or his own life to take lessons from. Or much at any point really. He is kinda busy with the looming "you are going to go insane" hanging over him.

Oh and by this point he has already been given an explanation and visited a World of the If (not an official name) so he kinda knows what is real or not. Well in this case. He has more pressing and closer matters on the subject of "what is real?"

And Rand literally hires a philosopher to do his thinking for him at one point.

My point that I was making "what is real" is that Rand will not question those things when the adreanline is happening and he is in danger. But Book 2 is 700 pages for the paperback and takes place in about a 3 month or longer period with a quick glance at the internet (Mid Summer - Late Fall year 998 NE.)

Rand should be changed by seeing all those lives at least in some ways. The Rand of Book 2 and Book 4 are very different and even more so Book 2 vs Book 9 or 10, but I say for a tome that is 700 pages long the characters should being changed by their experiences inside the books.

Except this doesn't happen for it is Robert Jordan's style to not do this. I say this takes a person out of the work, it feels unnatural, it feels inhuman like you are watching puppets with an uncanny valley effect. But it was Robert Jordan's choice to do this in this way.

[Saph]

Except the idea that it takes that long for some things to show up itself suggests the problem.

The first 10 books cover something like 2 years worth of events. For someone to change that much in 2 years is not slow development, it's extremely fast (unsustainably fast, actually – Rand's mental issues are exacerbated by not having anywhere near enough time to adjust to his new lifestyle). And you don't have to read 10 books to see the changes – book 4 Rand is extremely different to book 1 Rand, book 7 Rand is extremely different to book 4 Rand, and so on.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single fantasy series whose protagonist has more character development and personality changes than Wheel of Time does. If you don't like how long it takes, well, it's not like the length of the series is some well-kept secret . . .

[Tvtyrant]

The first 10 books cover something like 2 years worth of events. For someone to change that much in 2 years is not slow development, it's extremely fast (unsustainably fast, actually – Rand's mental issues are exacerbated by not having anywhere near enough time to adjust to his new lifestyle). And you don't have to read 10 books to see the changes – book 4 Rand is extremely different to book 1 Rand, book 7 Rand is extremely different to book 4 Rand, and so on.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single fantasy series whose protagonist has more character development and personality changes than Wheel of Time does. If you don't like how long it takes, well, it's not like the length of the series is some well-kept secret . . .

It is actually what a lot of people like about it. I like reading for its own sake, having something massive to chew on is relaxing.

[TheBarbecueChip]

Two general points:

1) I'm not expecting everybody to have a week long debrief/cry session where they share their souls collectively each time something heavy happens. While that might solve a bunch of problems, it doesn't really effect the story that, for example, all of the boys think the others know how to deal with girls when none of them feels like they themselves know how to handle women. That's kinda cute in a coming of age sort of way. What I'm more getting at is the sharing of information from Perrin letting Rand know he's not alone in thinking he's going mad (minor gripe) to more egregious things, like when Min warns Perrin about the female forsaken (I'm guessing a Morgan La Fey analogue) Lan-Fear (still can't spell anything), she is unnecessarily cryptic and then when she knows the message was not conveyed instead of explaining plainly she just huffs "Men" and runs off. I haven't gotten far enough to see if that bites everybody in the @**, but I kinda suspect it will.

2) As I'm sure we all know from tabletop gaming "I can throw fireballs now" is not character development. Neither is "I can throw fireballs, but I also have to roll on a mishap table." And it seems like a lot of the character development so far has been acquiring new skill sets. I'm not trying to claim that there is nothing beyond that but it certainly seems like events that would be life altering have significantly smaller impacts than I would have expected. Even Rand getting paranoid/going mad doesn't really feel like character development for him but world building for Sadin and the Dark One's taint

[Reddish Mage]

Two general points:

1) I'm not expecting everybody to have a week long debrief/cry session where they share their souls collectively each time something heavy happens. While that might solve a bunch of problems, it doesn't really effect the story that, for example, all of the boys think the others know how to deal with girls when none of them feels like they themselves know how to handle women. That's kinda cute in a coming of age sort of way. What I'm more getting at is the sharing of information from Perrin letting Rand know he's not alone in thinking he's going mad (minor gripe) to more egregious things, like when Min warns Perrin about the female forsaken (I'm guessing a Morgan La Fey analogue) Lan-Fear (still can't spell anything), she is unnecessarily cryptic and then when she knows the message was not conveyed instead of explaining plainly she just huffs "Men" and runs off. I haven't gotten far enough to see if that bites everybody in the @**, but I kinda suspect it will.

2) As I'm sure we all know from tabletop gaming "I can throw fireballs now" is not character development. Neither is "I can throw fireballs, but I also have to roll on a mishap table." And it seems like a lot of the character development so far has been acquiring new skill sets. I'm not trying to claim that there is nothing beyond that but it certainly seems like events that would be life altering have significantly smaller impacts than I would have expected. Even Rand getting paranoid/going mad doesn't really feel like character development for him but world building for Sadin and the Dark One's taint

In fiction I would absolutely count “I can throw fireballs now” as character development. A halfway decent author will show how the acquisition of a magnificent new power or ability affects the character internally and the perceptions of those around them. Jordan does this to varying degrees with his characters, some change and get affected by circumstances more than others. Rand is pretty static within book 2 but changes very dramatically and suddenly when change finally hits.

I seem to recall there is a time skip thrown in there.

[Tvtyrant]

I do think genres are going to focus on different things. A story about dealing with trauma is a very different one then a story about beating Satan, even if the events are the same.

Rand very quickly goes from "Gawky kid on an adventure" to "pessmistically faking it" to "legitimately cynical about other's motives." That isn't Saidin, its the erosion of his trust.

[Rynjin]

In fiction I would absolutely count “I can throw fireballs now” as character development. A halfway decent author will show how the acquisition of a magnificent new power or ability affects the character internally and the perceptions of those around them. Jordan does this to varying degrees with his characters, some change and get affected by circumstances more than others. Rand is pretty static within book 2 but changes very dramatically and suddenly when change finally hits.

I seem to recall there is a time skip thrown in there.

In particular his version of "I can throw Fireball now" is, without qualm or mercy, decimating thousands of sentient beings he previously felt remorse for killing.

[TheBarbecueChip]

In fiction I would absolutely count “I can throw fireballs now” as character development. A halfway decent author will show how the acquisition of a magnificent new power or ability affects the character internally and the perceptions of those around them. Jordan does this to varying degrees with his characters, some change and get affected by circumstances more than others. Rand is pretty static within book 2 but changes very dramatically and suddenly when change finally hits.

I seem to recall there is a time skip thrown in there.

So you agree that it's not the throwing of fireballs which is the character development, but all the additional work the author does around how the character relates to the new ability and their relationship to the world which is the character development? To phrase it another way, and in even more gamified terms: I took a level of wizard is not character development.

People might disagree with me, and I admit I'm working without all the information, but at this point I'm seeing alot of "I can do X now" and not much of "X is changing how I see and interact with the world." There's lip service to the idea here and there but people's actions/motivations don't seem to have changed much.


In particular his version of "I can throw Fireball now" is, without qualm or mercy, decimating thousands of sentient beings he previously felt remorse for killing.

Maybe I'm just expecting too much too quickly.

[Gnoman]

Maybe I'm just expecting too much too quickly.

That's mostly the case. To give an example without context -



Rand later decides to erase a fortress full of people from existence simply because this is the most convenient way to deal with it.

[Kitten Champion]

It's also worth remembering that Rand is subtly influenced by his past life as Lews Therin Telamon. Things that would over-awe or utterly confuse Rand the humble ignorant farm boy, Lews Therin is already deeply familiar with. Making him think and act occasionally as a much older and wiser person even when he isn't consciously aware of it.

There are some horrible drawbacks to that as the story goes, but early-Rand is mostly acting on instinct and the guidance of others without thinking about it too much.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm also going to mention that repetition is big part of the concept of the books, which is one reason they do it. The other is that sometimes it took *years* between them and readers might, literally, need reminders of who characters were.

This. I read the last four or five as they came out, and sweet god was that repetition helpful. But yes, Rand is stale for vast chunks of time but can be interesting. Perrin and Mat are the two who react. A lot. Hell, Perrin goes straight up nuts for awhile.

[TheBarbecueChip]

Hell, Perrin goes straight up nuts for awhile.

That seems to be a common problem for most of the main cast...

[dps]

It helps a lot if you don't think of it as "these people should do X" and instead think of it as "these people have a very different culture from mine, and this book is giving you a look at it".

Or, just assume that every half-way important character is either an idiot, an *******, or just plain nuts.

[Blackhawk748]

That seems to be a common problem for most of the main cast...

Ya that does start to happen with frightening rapidity around book 4 onward. It all makes sense in context and his (pretty much book as he's most of that one) is pretty good from my opinion. Then again, I rather like Perrin

[Lord Raziere]

Or, just assume that every half-way important character is either an idiot, an *******, or just plain nuts.

Honestly, this is the more plausible possibility. culture explains only so much.

[TheBarbecueChip]

Honestly, this is the more plausible possibility. culture explains only so much.

Well seeing as every organization/society presented so far is either corrupt, exceedingly arrogant, or outrageously hostile (and that's not even counting the outright evil ones), with the possible exception of the Emens Field folk, I think culture might explain quite a bit. Not everything, there's plenty of room for idiocy and madness as well, but just... woof. Give anyone (other than a main character) a speck of power in this world and no one could possibly teach them anything.

Also, the cultures don't seem, as of yet, to be expanded upon much past some rudimentary coding and the aforementioned corruption/arrogance/hostility.

[Lord Raziere]

Well seeing as every organization/society presented so far is either corrupt, exceedingly arrogant, or outrageously hostile (and that's not even counting the outright evil ones), with the possible exception of the Emens Field folk, I think culture might explain quite a bit. Not everything, there's plenty of room for idiocy and madness as well, but just... woof. Give anyone (other than a main character) a speck of power in this world and no one could possibly teach them anything.

Also, the cultures don't seem, as of yet, to be expanded upon much past some rudimentary coding and the aforementioned corruption/arrogance/hostility.

I mean.....if every culture is like that, I don't think it explains anything, because culture is about explaining what the differences are between them. if they're all similar, that suggests a commonality that exists across cultures that no amount of changes has gotten rid of....

[Saph]

Well seeing as every organization/society presented so far is either corrupt, exceedingly arrogant, or outrageously hostile (and that's not even counting the outright evil ones) ,with the possible exception of the Emens Field folk, I think culture might explain quite a bit.

In the first two books, the cultures you get a proper look at are Two Rivers, Andor, the Aes Sedai, the Seanchan, Shienar, and Cairhien. I'd say that about half of those fit your description. 50% isn't an amazing batting average, but it's not as bad as you're saying.


Give anyone (other than a main character) a speck of power in this world and no one could possibly teach them anything.

Well, there's good news and bad news on that front. The good news is that there are quite a few powerful people throughout the book who generally try to do the best they can (you've already met Morgase, Agelmar, Moiraine, and on a smaller scale even the Two Rivers leaders do their best with what they have).

The bad news is that the main characters aren't immune to these problems either.

[TheBarbecueChip]

I mean.....if every culture is like that, I don't think it explains anything, because culture is about explaining what the differences are between them. if they're all similar, that suggests a commonality that exists across cultures that no amount of changes has gotten rid of....

Well like I said there's a bit of coding and some of the cultures strive towards nobility more than others so there are some differences. But everybody seems pretty conceited.


In the first two books, the cultures you get a proper look at are Two Rivers, Andor, the Aes Sedai, the Seanchan, Shienar, and Cairhien. I'd say that about half of those fit your description. 50% isn't an amazing batting average, but it's not as bad as you're saying.

I said cultures and organizations and I said corrupt, arrogant, or hostile so, let's add to that the Ogier (utterly convinced of their own wisdom), the Children of the Light (do we ever meet a single one who is less than foaming at the mouth dogmatic or genuine in their beliefs without an ulterior motive or even a decent person? Geofroma Bornhald comes close but even he is a political animal and ready to condemn people on the flimsiest of pretexts), the Aiel (let's kill everything that isn't us), the Traveling People (pacifistic to the point of insanity, I know it's a developing plot point at the moment, but if everybody really did live like them the world is doomed and they refuse to accept it). We seem to be creeping towards a hefty majority, in my opinion.

[Iruka]

I found this to be a decent reflection of RL cultures and groups.

[Saph]

I said cultures and organizations and I said corrupt, arrogant, or hostile so, let's add to that the Ogier (utterly convinced of their own wisdom), the Children of the Light (do we ever meet a single one who is less than foaming at the mouth dogmatic or genuine in their beliefs without an ulterior motive or even a decent person? Geofroma Bornhald comes close but even he is a political animal and ready to condemn people on the flimsiest of pretexts), the Aiel (let's kill everything that isn't us), the Traveling People (pacifistic to the point of insanity, I know it's a developing plot point at the moment, but if everybody really did live like them the world is doomed and they refuse to accept it). We seem to be creeping towards a hefty majority, in my opinion.

The Ogier are some of the generally nicest people in the series. I wouldn't say they're 'utterly convinced of their own wisdom'. Every time the main characters run into them, the Ogier are entirely helpful, even when the MCs are trying to do objectively insane things like 'let's go into the Ways'.

The Children of the Light are one of the antagonist organisations. Don't expect much from them.

The Aiel . . . well, you'll learn a lot more about them in later books, but let's just say that their culture is a lot more complicated than 'kill everyone who isn't us'.

And the Travelling People are pacifists, yes. You'll run into plenty of people like that in the real world. And again, they're entirely helpful and generous to the protagonists.

Again, I'd say you're at around 50% at most.