Homebrew Trapdoor Spider (CR 4) Help

[Pinjata]

Hey, guys,

I'm making huge a Trapdoor spider - CR 4. I've used Giant Spider from SRD and made some changes ... I'd appreciate comments and changes.

Giant Spider
[changed to Huge]Large beast, unaligned
Armor Class 14 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 26 (4d10+4)
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
STR 14 (+2) DEX 16 (+3) CON 12 (+1) INT 2 (-4) WIS 11 (+0) CHA 4 (-3)
Skills Stealth +7
Senses Blindsight 10 Ft., Darkvision 60 Ft., passive Perception 10
Challenge 1 (200 XP)
Spider Climb. The spider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
Web Sense. While in contact with a web, the spider knows the exact location of any other creature in contact with the same web.[REMOVED]
Web Walker. The spider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.[REMOVED]
Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 7 (1d8 + 3) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 9 (2d8) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If the poison damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.

Web (Recharge 5-6). Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 30/60 ft., one creature. The target is restrained by webbing As an action, the restrained target can make a DC 12 Strength check, bursting the webbing on a success. The webbing can also be attacked and destroyed (AC 10; hp 5; vulnerability to fire damage; immunity to bludgeoning, poison, and psychic damage)[REMOVED]

... I've removed QUITE A FEW things from this CR1! baby. I'd appreciate any suggestion on WHAT TO ADD in order to lift it to CR4 and keep it all Trapdoor-y - thus no web and no ranged attack. (Perhaps Running Leap or something alike?)

thanks :smallsmile:

[Ninja_Prawn]

If you're jacking something up from CR 1 to 4, it'll take more than adding a few hit dice and boosting its Str. I'd recommend a recharge ability that does significantly more damage than its basic attack routine as the first addition.

I don't know if this helps at all, but I wrote a CR 5 sword spider (https://nailsofvecna.tumblr.com/post/163048269766/another-hideous-variety-of-giant-spider-the-sword) a while back... aaaaand I just noticed that the Stealth bonus is wrong. Sigh.

[No brains]

One thing you should consider is this monster's role. If it is CR 4 because its meant to be a boss for a low-level party, it should have powers that let it compete with 4 people attacking it in concert. If its just another big scary mook for the heroes to overcome, then giving and taking bigger hits might cut it.

If its meant to be a horror monster that can grab one party member and pull them off into its burrow, consider really jacking up its strength. Give it a high score, maybe even with Powerful Build or Beast of Burden so opening its trapdoor becomes a challenge. Then it can be really scary without actually needing to be strong. If it can isolate a player for even one turn and then get its abdomen kicked, the player will still remember the panic of getting dragged off and fighting alone.

Consider preserving web sense or increasing its blindsight. Not only because the spider itself is bigger, but also to increase the range at which it can ambush someone from its trapdoor. As is, if the players stay 10 feet away from a trap door, the spider will never even know they were there. I assume the trap door closes all the way and the spider is not constantly peeking out.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I'd second this thought. Are you making it for your druid players? Or as a monster filling an unoccupied niche in your dungeon (which will thereafter be sought after by your druids, if it's too powerful)?

[Bjarkmundur]

Jesus that post is a mess. Let's clean it up a bit.
Okay, now that's done we can go ahead to my Monster Math (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d92XLmQN2lmndBbekd6Ns3pDjdLE__FHGGmSWLUVOOM/edit?usp=sharing) and pick the 'Ambusher' Theme.
Then we just have to create the ambush mechanic. We can use the frog's swallow ability, but flavor it as a spider dragging you into her hole.
-----------------

Giant Spider
AC: 11
HP: 38

Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 10 piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 15 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If the poison damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.

Ambush: The spider makes one bite Attack against a large or smaller target. If the Attack hits, the target is pulled into the spider's lair (escape DC 13), and the grapple ends. The swallowed target is Blinded and Restrained , it has total cover against attacks and other Effects outside the lair, and it takes 15 piercing damage at the start of each of the spider's turns. The spider can have only one target in its lair at a time.
If the spider dies, the target creature is no longer Restrained by it and can escape using 5 feet of Movement, exiting prone.

-----------------

A creature of this CR usually has multiattack, so feel free to throw that in there. Your damage per round budget is 30-40.

[JellyPooga]

1) Don't remove Web Sense and Web Walk. The spidwr can still weave webs, just not weaponise it. Make it a terrain feature that the PCs have to deal with without hindering the spider.

2) Ramp up those HD. For CR 4, you want at least 50HP, if not up to the 80 mark. Give it 8HD or more and incrwase DCs for its special attacks appropriatlely.

3) Stealth. You'll want (de facto) Expertise, for +9 or more. This is an ambish predator; it should be good at it.

4) Think about giving it Sneak Attack or an additional Expertise in Athletics, so it can grapple.

5) Give it Dash as a Bonus Action or at least 40 or 50ft speed. It should be scary fast.

[stoutstien]

Could also add an auto grapple on the bite attack to showcase the pop out and grab prey tactic.
2nd adding more hp or some form of resistance to give it some(any) staying power.

[Pinjata]

Here is new spider. Do you guys think he is ok for CR4?

Giant Trapdoor Spider
Huge beast, unaligned
Armor Class 11 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 54
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
STR 14 (+2) DEX 16 (+3) CON 12 (+1) INT 2 (-4) WIS 11 (+0) CHA 4 (-3)
Skills Stealth +7
Senses Blindsight 60 Ft., Darkvision 60 Ft., passive Perception 10
Challenge 4

Spider Climb. The spider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.

Multiattack. The Giant Trapdoor Spider makes two melee attacks.

Actions

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 12 (2d8 + 3) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 13 Constitution saving throw, taking 9 (2d8) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If the poison damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.

Nimble Speed. The Giant Trapdoor Spider can take the Dash action as a bonus action on each of its turns.

[stoutstien]

Here is new spider. Do you guys think he is ok for CR4?

Giant Trapdoor Spider
Huge beast, unaligned
Armor Class 11 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 54
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
STR 14 (+2) DEX 16 (+3) CON 12 (+1) INT 2 (-4) WIS 11 (+0) CHA 4 (-3)
Skills Stealth +7
Senses Blindsight 60 Ft., Darkvision 60 Ft., passive Perception 10
Challenge 4

Spider Climb. The spider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.

Multiattack. The Giant Trapdoor Spider makes two melee attacks.

Actions

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 12 (2d8 + 3) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 13 Constitution saving throw, taking 9 (2d8) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If the poison damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.

Nimble Speed. The Giant Trapdoor Spider can take the Dash action as a bonus action on each of its turns.

The math works out to a CR 2*

[Pinjata]

Eeh, I'll keep it at this, then. I do not want to go beyond potential 4d8 per turn.

[stoutstien]

Eeh, I'll keep it at this, then. I do not want to go beyond potential 4d8 per turn.

Do you happen to have a copy of the DMG?
If not you are looking at roughly around the following for a CR 4
Prof bonus: 2
AC: 14
HP: 116-130
Attack bonus: +5
Damage per round: 27-32
Save DC: 14

[JellyPooga]

Here is new spider. Do you guys think he is ok for CR4?

Giant Trapdoor Spider
Huge beast, unaligned
Armor Class 11 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 54
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
STR 14 (+2) DEX 16 (+3) CON 12 (+1) INT 2 (-4) WIS 11 (+0) CHA 4 (-3)
Skills Stealth +7
Senses Blindsight 60 Ft., Darkvision 60 Ft., passive Perception 10
Challenge 4

Spider Climb. The spider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.

Multiattack. The Giant Trapdoor Spider makes two melee attacks.

Actions

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 12 (2d8 + 3) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 13 Constitution saving throw, taking 9 (2d8) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If the poison damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.

Nimble Speed. The Giant Trapdoor Spider can take the Dash action as a bonus action on each of its turns.

For CR 4, you're still underestimating by a woeful amount.

For example: A Githyanki Warrior is CR 3 and deals 4d6+2 damage per hit (half slashing, half psychic; no saves involved), attacks twice a round, has AC:17 and innate psionics.

A Flameskull (CR 4) has Fireball, multiple resistances/immunities, cannot be killed except by special means, has two ranged attacks per turn (3d6 damage each) and can fly.

Black Pudding (CR 4) deals 1d8 damage just for attacking it and the bonus damage on its attack is about the same as the full damage of your spider, not to mention the base damage or rider effects, the weapon destruction, approx 50% increase in HP and a slew of immunities/resistances.


Up. Your. Game.

A single CR 4 creature should wreck...and I mean wreck)...a 1st level party. We're talking at least one PC dead each turn. No, not unconscious at 0HP...fully dead, as in "ain't comin' back", "pushing up daisies", "kicked the bucket", "shuffled off this mortal coil"...sorry, I got caught up in the wrong sketch for a moment there :smallwink:. Your Trapdoor Spider...is kinda tough for a party of four 1st level characters, but not insurmountable. A well prepared party might even be the ones doing the wrecking. Change this.

- Huge size with AC:11 is just a big "Kick me" sign. Increase that Armour Class and/or increase the HP, or PC's with be taking it out in a single round. AC 11 is basically saying "you automatically hit" for PCs of any level, who can expect to have at least +5, if not +6 to hit, even at level 1, let alone at higher levels. I would expect to be facing off against at least AC 14 by the time I was regularly encountering CR 4 critters, if not higher.

- Bonus damage (leaving aside the normal attack damage) for CR 4 seems to be in the 4d8 area, whether it come from poison, acid or whatever. Use that as a guideline. A melee attack dealing 1d10+(str mod) damage plus 4d8 (save for half) poison damage is normal for this level, not high. If you want scary attacks, increase this. 6d8 or even 8d8 with a save for half is absolutely fine if you keep the save DC low enough. If you want weak attacks, lower it a little,, but we're talking a minimum of something like 3d6 poison damage.

- Huge size and Strength 14. Really? I mean...really? Other creatures that are Huge have Strength scores in the 19-25 range (and that's just looking at the MM entry for Dinosaurs, let alone anything supernatural). Might want to consider that discrepancy.

- OK, so you've got that Bonus Action Dash thing going on and poisonous attacks that won't kill anyone, but let's face it...this creature is a little boring. It doesn't have anything special; it's not hard to kill, it doesn't grapple or knock prone or get extra attacks as riders to its attacks, it doesn't have paralysing venom (unless the poison knocks the victim to 0 HP, but let's face it; being paralysed when your unconscious is a bit redundant). Hell, you've even taken away one of the most iconic aspects of a spider; it's webs/web walking abilities. Give it something, anything, to make the fight entertaining or different from simply exchanging blows until one side or the other falls down.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Eeh, I'll keep it at this, then. I do not want to go beyond potential 4d8 per turn.

You don't need to increase its damage to bring it to CR 4. Its offensive CR is already 4, the reason it comes out lower overall is because it has basically no defense. 54 HP at AC 11 with no defensive features or damage resistances will melt very quickly, even against a level 1 party.

Actually, if it has natural armour, its AC should be at least 14... Is that a typo?

[Nidgit]

I agree, the spider's HP is about half the CR 4 recommended amount. Up that and give it better Stealth too.

As far as giving your spider actions, how do you envision the encounter going? A typical trapdoor spider would rapidly retreat inside the lair and either flee with its prey or attempt to hold the door closed. Some spiders also have branching lair with multiple doors inside, which could really add to the intensity once the party pursues it into the tunnels. I would add the option for the spider to attempt to bar a door as a bonus action, leading to an Athletics contest. Alternatively, the party could attempt to break through the door, which could be 10-20 HP and resistant to bludgeoning, piercing, cold, and poison damage (but not slashing!).

Lastly, most trapdoor spiders rely on their bite power over their poison. If you decide to incorporate multiple doors like I mentioned, I would probably drop the poison damage down to 1d8 and transfer that to 2d6 sneak attack damage, similar to the bugbear.