Symbiotic template, how does it affect both creatures as individuals

[Noxangelo]

So i was reading the symbiotic template it says the template is applied to two living creatures and that the symbiotic creature has characteristics of both the host
and the guest. It allows the host and guest to separate and rejoin at will (kinda, rejoining is a little complicated) but doesn't go into how the template affects both creatures separately.

do they both gain exp and level separately.
when they separate does the feral dvati half-Minotaur half-ogre warhulk Keep the sneak attack (does it even get it?)
when they separate does the strongheart halfling cleric, rogue, arcane trickster, unseen seer keep the ridiculous strength score
when they separate do they keep the bonus feats and skills.
when they separate who keeps the persisted divine power

[PoeticallyPsyco]

So i was reading the symbiotic template it says the template is applied to two living creatures and that the symbiotic creature has characteristics of both the host
and the guest. It allows the host and guest to separate and rejoin at will (kinda, rejoining is a little complicated) but doesn't go into how the template affects both creatures separately.

do they both gain exp and level separately.
when they separate does the feral dvati half-Minotaur half-ogre warhulk Keep the sneak attack (does it even get it?)
when they separate does the strongheart halfling cleric, rogue, arcane trickster, unseen seer keep the ridiculous strength score
when they separate do they keep the bonus feats and skills.
when they separate who keeps the persisted divine power

Once the template is applied, they definitely count as a single creature while combined. That means XP and level as a single creature (which you can do by advancing the host's HD as normal, or by taking class levels; the second one will almost always be a better idea). As for how that works when they separate... nobody knows. You'll have to ask your DM, and be prepared to adjust it on the fly based on common sense and balance. One idea I've had is splitting the levels of each class evenly between the two creatures.

Likewise, any class feature I've been able to find either explicitly falls under the umbrella of "special abilities or special attacks" in an official Monster Manual statblock, or is directly analogous to a feature that does (e.g. spellcasting as a class feature is a special attack, and it makes perfect sense that ToB maneuvers would therefore be a special attack as well). That means the combined creature gets all the class features of both the host and the guest while combined (including Sneak Attack from your example), but how that works when separated would depend entirely on how you house-ruled it. This also applies to bonus feats and skills.

However, I don't think that applies to ability scores, for the simple reason that that makes no physical sense. The guest (Strongheart Halfling in your example) wouldn't get to keep the host's (half-Minotaur's) physical stats, and the host wouldn't get to keep the guest's mental stats.

As a DM, I would probably let both creatures benefit from Divine Power or other spells cast on them while they were combined, even after separating. That's no less a house rule than anything else I've mentioned, but it does make sense to me: both were under the effects of the spell while combined, so after separating they should still both be under the effects of the spell.



P.S. Also, Dvati in Symbiotic Creature? You absolute madman! I'm impressed! :nale:

[Noxangelo]

I picked dvati on the assumption that each twin gets a full set of actions per turn (honestly if they don't, that race is worse than useless) that way i get the flanking bonus on two full attacks with the sneak attack and that ungodly str score.

What if they run around separately for some combats, would they get exp separately then.
And even when combined the guest creature gets its own actions, it can cast a spell or attack if it can reach the enemy, that would imply that it is still a separate being, compounded by the fact it says the template is applied to two creatures but doesn't say they become one.

this template is really badly written

I am curious why this template isn't used in TO more often. physical stats of host, mental stats of guest, feats from both, guest skills as bonus ranks, racial traits of both. you really could have your cake and eat it too.

imagine the army from a guest and host dread necromancers with with two leadership, undead leadership, dragon cohort and wild cohort, only one would need tomb tainted soul and they would have two characters worth of feats for all those delicious necromantic feats. and two pairs of ghost arms for a pair of energy bows for when they get bored of watching THOUSANDS of minions and their cohorts wreck any obstacle.

[Anthrowhale]

I think it isn't used that much simply because it's so badly written that it's hard to interpret. Dvati also suffer from this, although to a lesser extent.

Personally, I'd rule that the separated creatures are precisely the creatures as if they had not used the Symbiote template.

W.r.t. experience, it's a metagame concept, so assignment is generally up to the DM anyways. By default, I'd probably assign experience to the host but not the guest, because it appears to be the host which advances (and this ruling would curb gestalt-in-a-nongestalt-game abuse).

[Uncle Pine]

So i was reading the symbiotic template it says the template is applied to two living creatures and that the symbiotic creature has characteristics of both the host
and the guest. It allows the host and guest to separate and rejoin at will (kinda, rejoining is a little complicated) but doesn't go into how the template affects both creatures separately.

do they both gain exp and level separately.
Unspecified, but I can see two potential rulings:
- Both the host and the guest always gain exp and level separately. Whenever the host or the guest advance in any way, recalculate all aspects of the symbiotic creature based on the new ones of the host and the guest. Reasoning: I think this is the most streamlined way to handle the issue.
- Both the host and the guest gain exp and level separately whenever they are separate (see above). When they are joined, only the host gains exp and levels. Reasoning: "Advancement: Same as the host or by character class."
I'm strongly in favour of the former ruling.


when they separate does the feral dvati half-Minotaur half-ogre warhulk Keep the sneak attack (does it even get it?)
A symbiotic creature has access to special attacks of both the host and the guest. Neither the separated host nor the separated guest qualify as "a symbiotic creature" by themselves, therefore the separated dvati host would not keep sneak attack.


when they separate does the strongheart halfling cleric, rogue, arcane trickster, unseen seer keep the ridiculous strength score
A symbiotic creature uses the physical ability scores of the host and the mental ability scores of the guest. Neither the separated host nor the separated guest qualify as "a symbiotic creature" by themselves, therefore the separated halfling guest would not keep the ridiculous strength score.


when they separate do they keep the bonus feats and skills.
A symbiotic creature uses the skill ranks of the host (modified by its new ability scores), gains the skill ranks of the guest as a racial bonuses, has the feats of the host and gainst the feats of the guest as bonus feats. Neither the separated host nor the separated guest qualify as "a symbiotic creature" by themselves, therefore they retain their own skill ranks and feats when separated.


when they separate who keeps the persisted divine power
Unspecified. Ask your DM, but chances are that they'll rule that buffs such as divine power will either continue benefitting both the guest and the host, remain with whoever casted them in the first place (in your example, the halfling guest), exhaust their duration (since the original target of the spell no longer exist), or have the duration of each spell split among the guest and the host - the last one being the ruling I'd pick.


And even when combined the guest creature gets its own actions, it can cast a spell or attack if it can reach the enemy, that would imply that it is still a separate being, compounded by the fact it says the template is applied to two creatures but doesn't say they become one.
The symbiotic template explicitly doesn't grant an attached guest its own set of actions: if the guest has a form of attack, the symbiotic creature can only use it as a secondary attack as part of a normal full attack action, but if it's a special attack the symbiotic creature can only use special attacks of the host or special attacks of the guest in any given round (at least under normal circumstances, see "Special Attack" in the symbiotic template).


I am curious why this template isn't used in TO more often. physical stats of host, mental stats of guest, feats from both, guest skills as bonus ranks, racial traits of both. you really could have your cake and eat it too.
I've used it once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18474822&postcount=77).